Attorney Job Search (Biglaw v. Boutique)
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Attorney Job Search (Biglaw v. Boutique)
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Last edited by DockDeJure on Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
- anon_investor
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Re: Attorney Job Search (Biglaw v. Boutique)
What year are you? Have you considered in house at all? I went from big law to in house, the best decision I ever made. Work/life balance is amazing.Licet wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:37 pm I'm currently a junior associate at a top-ranked biglaw firm and am evaluating offers from multiple firms in a non-NYC market (so no DPW market salary options). The decision is essentially coming down to whether I should choose another big firm or move to a smaller boutique. My practice will be similar no matter which firm I pick (corporate-adjacent regulatory practice).
- Biglaw Firm #1: $195,000 plus bonus, 1900 billable target, Vault/AmLaw ranked firm
- Biglaw Firm #2: $185,000 plus bonus, 1800 billable target, considered a (if not the) leading "local" firm in the area
- Boutique: $140,000 plus bonus, 1450 billable target, hadn't heard of it prior to the job search but appears to be well respected in its specialty
I'd like to move to the boutique firm for lifestyle reasons but am concerned that I'll be shooting myself in the foot for future opportunities and will hamper my development as an attorney. Several former associates from the boutique firm have gone on to biglaw positions after leaving the boutique (some having worked in biglaw before and others not), so it doesn't seem to be a dead-end option, but I'd appreciate some thoughts from others who have made similar decisions on whether my concerns are valid.
For what it's worth, we can meet our savings goals with the boutique salary so there isn't a financial concern with taking a lower salary now (though more savings is always better). My primary worry is that I'll be seen as less employable later on. I'm not looking to be a GC of a big company or anything like that, but don't want to limit my future opportunities unnecessarily.
Any and all perspectives are much appreciated!
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Re: Attorney Job Search (Biglaw v. Boutique)
Do you like the practice of law or the business of law? I’d try to figure out what you think you want and which might match that trajectory. If you’re worried about work life balance now, it might be an indication that big law meat grinder isn’t for you.
FWIW, i was never in biglaw, but I work with mostly biglaw associates.
FWIW, i was never in biglaw, but I work with mostly biglaw associates.
Re: Attorney Job Search (Biglaw v. Boutique)
Unfortunately this is a really difficult question to answer as there is a myriad of other circumstances that impact the decision.
Here is a few that come to mind, but there are a number of others. Feel free to PM me. I was in this situation a long time albeit in a different context.
*Do you want to potentially be a partner? I assume you don't want to close the door at a minimum. What are the prospects at each? (Often difficult to tell for sure, but you can generally get some information on this from the recruiter, research, the attorneys at the firm, and others in the market.) How is partnership structured (equity tiers, eat what you kill/objective formulas, etc.)?
*Stability of firms? Are the Biglaw Firms 1/2 HQs? Are they important enough to the firm's revenue line that they will keep the outpost and continue to make partners from the same? If outposts, are they even profitable? (You would be surprised how many outposts aren't necessarily profitable.)
*Expected bonus? Typical payout? Raises?
*Who would you be working with from the groups? Thoughts if a good fit?
*Who else from your group at your level (i.e., who else would be up for partner from you group around the same time)? Who else in other groups is around the same level?
*I don't have experience in your practice area it sounds like, but I think banking on a more beneficial lifestyle for the boutique can be dangerous unless you have strong reassurances and evidence on the same. Billable targets are generally just targets. What is the real expectation? And what does everyone else actually bill (i.e., what is the average billable hours for associates and partners)? 1450 seems low and definitely would be uncommon. Here is one way to look at things that I think could be helpful. Assume a firm roughly has a 50% profit margin on their hourly rates before any associate's salary. This is after overhead, admin costs, insurance costs, etc. Lets say they will bill you out at $350/hour. And lets say you bill 1450 hours to clients and disregard write downs, discounts, etc. That's only 253,750 to the firm. (507,500/2) They are paying you $140,000 of that. Plus bonus of lets say $60k. That only leaves around 50k for the partners. Not a ton of meat on the bone there. You would expect under that analysis there would be a strong push to have you be billing more than 1450. You are a basically a fixed cost to them, so every hour you bill above 1450 is more money in their pockets.
Here is a few that come to mind, but there are a number of others. Feel free to PM me. I was in this situation a long time albeit in a different context.
*Do you want to potentially be a partner? I assume you don't want to close the door at a minimum. What are the prospects at each? (Often difficult to tell for sure, but you can generally get some information on this from the recruiter, research, the attorneys at the firm, and others in the market.) How is partnership structured (equity tiers, eat what you kill/objective formulas, etc.)?
*Stability of firms? Are the Biglaw Firms 1/2 HQs? Are they important enough to the firm's revenue line that they will keep the outpost and continue to make partners from the same? If outposts, are they even profitable? (You would be surprised how many outposts aren't necessarily profitable.)
*Expected bonus? Typical payout? Raises?
*Who would you be working with from the groups? Thoughts if a good fit?
*Who else from your group at your level (i.e., who else would be up for partner from you group around the same time)? Who else in other groups is around the same level?
*I don't have experience in your practice area it sounds like, but I think banking on a more beneficial lifestyle for the boutique can be dangerous unless you have strong reassurances and evidence on the same. Billable targets are generally just targets. What is the real expectation? And what does everyone else actually bill (i.e., what is the average billable hours for associates and partners)? 1450 seems low and definitely would be uncommon. Here is one way to look at things that I think could be helpful. Assume a firm roughly has a 50% profit margin on their hourly rates before any associate's salary. This is after overhead, admin costs, insurance costs, etc. Lets say they will bill you out at $350/hour. And lets say you bill 1450 hours to clients and disregard write downs, discounts, etc. That's only 253,750 to the firm. (507,500/2) They are paying you $140,000 of that. Plus bonus of lets say $60k. That only leaves around 50k for the partners. Not a ton of meat on the bone there. You would expect under that analysis there would be a strong push to have you be billing more than 1450. You are a basically a fixed cost to them, so every hour you bill above 1450 is more money in their pockets.
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Re: Attorney Job Search (Biglaw v. Boutique)
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Last edited by DockDeJure on Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Attorney Job Search (Biglaw v. Boutique)
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Last edited by DockDeJure on Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
- anon_investor
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Re: Attorney Job Search (Biglaw v. Boutique)
Are you trying to go on house at a big public company? If so you probably do need to stay big law (just my observations from the big public companies I interviewed at and work at. Feel free to PM me, I went through the process of big law to megacorp in house about 5 years ago.Licet wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:55 pmIn-house is the goal, but I've been told I'm too junior to make the jump. My plan is to spend at least 2 years at the new firm and then evaluate again. If the new firm is tolerable, I'd like to stay for probably 4-5 years so I go in-house in a more senior position since I understand promotions/raises are few and far between at that point without switching companies.anon_investor wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:56 pmWhat year are you? Have you considered in house at all? I went from big law to in house, the best decision I ever made. Work/life balance is amazing.Licet wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:37 pm I'm currently a junior associate at a top-ranked biglaw firm and am evaluating offers from multiple firms in a non-NYC market (so no DPW market salary options). The decision is essentially coming down to whether I should choose another big firm or move to a smaller boutique. My practice will be similar no matter which firm I pick (corporate-adjacent regulatory practice).
- Biglaw Firm #1: $195,000 plus bonus, 1900 billable target, Vault/AmLaw ranked firm
- Biglaw Firm #2: $185,000 plus bonus, 1800 billable target, considered a (if not the) leading "local" firm in the area
- Boutique: $140,000 plus bonus, 1450 billable target, hadn't heard of it prior to the job search but appears to be well respected in its specialty
I'd like to move to the boutique firm for lifestyle reasons but am concerned that I'll be shooting myself in the foot for future opportunities and will hamper my development as an attorney. Several former associates from the boutique firm have gone on to biglaw positions after leaving the boutique (some having worked in biglaw before and others not), so it doesn't seem to be a dead-end option, but I'd appreciate some thoughts from others who have made similar decisions on whether my concerns are valid.
For what it's worth, we can meet our savings goals with the boutique salary so there isn't a financial concern with taking a lower salary now (though more savings is always better). My primary worry is that I'll be seen as less employable later on. I'm not looking to be a GC of a big company or anything like that, but don't want to limit my future opportunities unnecessarily.
Any and all perspectives are much appreciated!
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Re: Attorney Job Search (Biglaw v. Boutique)
Others have focused on different aspects of your post, so I am going to focus on the bolded.Licet wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:37 pm I'm currently a junior associate at a top-ranked biglaw firm and am evaluating offers from multiple firms in a non-NYC market (so no DPW market salary options). The decision is essentially coming down to whether I should choose another big firm or move to a smaller boutique. My practice will be similar no matter which firm I pick (corporate-adjacent regulatory practice).
- Biglaw Firm #1: $195,000 plus bonus, 1900 billable target, Vault/AmLaw ranked firm
- Biglaw Firm #2: $185,000 plus bonus, 1800 billable target, considered a (if not the) leading "local" firm in the area
- Boutique: $140,000 plus bonus, 1450 billable target, hadn't heard of it prior to the job search but appears to be well respected in its specialty
I'd like to move to the boutique firm for lifestyle reasons but am concerned that I'll be shooting myself in the foot for future opportunities and will hamper my development as an attorney. Several former associates from the boutique firm have gone on to biglaw positions after leaving the boutique (some having worked in biglaw before and others not), so it doesn't seem to be a dead-end option, but I'd appreciate some thoughts from others who have made similar decisions on whether my concerns are valid.
For what it's worth, we can meet our savings goals with the boutique salary so there isn't a financial concern with taking a lower salary now (though more savings is always better). My primary worry is that I'll be seen as less employable later on. I'm not looking to be a GC of a big company or anything like that, but don't want to limit my future opportunities unnecessarily.
Any and all perspectives are much appreciated!
Us lawyers have a general tendency to be incredibly risk averse. But the best advice I ever got is that if you are competent, diligent, and even moderately personable, you are ahead of 75% of the pack. What that means in practical terms is that the worst case scenario in your head is never, ever likely to happen.
Here, you worry about this decision being a pivot point. What I can tell you is that just by landing where you are now, I can tell you are incredibly bright, hard working, and determined. You are set up for success, period. This decision is not the be-all-end-all.
I do not want to place too much emphasis on my own story because that is obviously anecdotal. But I left a very reputable local firm (small probably by your standards) to work with another solo. I thought it was a huge pivot point. Well that was a disaster and I left three months later.
Fast forward three (almost four) years now. I have my own practice that takes about 15 hours a week that earns me about $75k a year. I have a book of business that can support my family. I’m also an assistant law director at my local city (despite not attending a single fundraiser in eight years, i.e., I did not get the job through any sort of politics), and I make $66k there with a $16k/year pension plus amazing healthcare.
Keep in mind I am a complete schmuck. I do not have any connections or anything. But even now, after a bad decision, I’m in what I consider a very good place. Good enough that I could probably leave the city but don’t just so I can rack up more benefits.
You will do well. I’d say follow the job that interests you the most. If it does not work out you can get back on the traditional tracks of where you will want to land, and you will be more than fine.
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Re: Attorney Job Search (Biglaw v. Boutique)
If the ultimate goal is to go in-house, I'd consider two non-financial questions: (i) who are the major clients for your practice group in each of the firms listed above and (ii) where have associates in your practice group at each of those firms gone in-house?
From a financial standpoint, BigLaw would be my suggestion. Local firms have smaller lockstep increases in subsequent years, and you'll be working just as hard. Spend a few more years in BigLaw, bank the guaranteed lockstep increases, meet your hours, and get your bonus.
From a financial standpoint, BigLaw would be my suggestion. Local firms have smaller lockstep increases in subsequent years, and you'll be working just as hard. Spend a few more years in BigLaw, bank the guaranteed lockstep increases, meet your hours, and get your bonus.
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Re: Attorney Job Search (Biglaw v. Boutique)
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Last edited by DockDeJure on Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Attorney Job Search (Biglaw v. Boutique)
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Last edited by DockDeJure on Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Attorney Job Search (Biglaw v. Boutique)
Is the location you're moving to the place you want to settle down long-term? If so, who are the major companies in the city, and does your preferred firm option do work for them? If so, once you join your new firm, I'd try to position yourself with the relationship partner(s) for those companies, do great work for those corporations, and establish connections with the in-house attorneys.Licet wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:53 pmThose are good questions and the results seem to be all over the place for all three firms. Part of that is likely due to the small sample size involved for each firm (these offices are in a smaller market). My assumption is that the good exits were largely driven by choice while poor exits were forced transitions and, while I've received good reviews as a junior, I hesitate to assume I'd be in the "good exits" camp. I suppose it's not a dissimilar approach to the choice I made for law school (choosing a "top" school over a local one because of median job outcomes) but I'm not sure the assumption holds up as far as exits are concerned.jaqenhghar wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:43 pm If the ultimate goal is to go in-house, I'd consider two non-financial questions: (i) who are the major clients for your practice group in each of the firms listed above and (ii) where have associates in your practice group at each of those firms gone in-house?
From a financial standpoint, BigLaw would be my suggestion. Local firms have smaller lockstep increases in subsequent years, and you'll be working just as hard. Spend a few more years in BigLaw, bank the guaranteed lockstep increases, meet your hours, and get your bonus.
I agree Biglaw is the better choice financially, as it's likely a ~$50k difference in the first year and more after that. Part of the reason for this change is the unsustainable pace at my current firm (on track for 2750 hours this year) so I'm willing to trade compensation to have a semblance of a life again. My primary concern is whether doing so permanently hinders my job prospects or whether I can still find a solid, decently paying in-house position in a few years (even if it takes me an extra year or two at a smaller firm to have the same chance at a senior in-house gig).
To your point about 2750 hours, I think it's crazy busy everywhere at the moment. Playing devil's advocate, will moving firms result in a better WLB on an annualized basis (say 2000 hours vs your current 2750 hour pace)? I wish someone had told this to me as a junior associate, but you do have the power to politely push back and say your plate is full. Easier said than done, I realize.
To your question about whether going to the boutique hinders the ability to go in-house, a couple of points: (i) in-house hires tend to come from the law firm associates that the in-house counsel like and (ii) biglaw name recognition still plays a role in-house in my experience.
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Re: Attorney Job Search (Biglaw v. Boutique)
+1. I am in-house at a megacorp, with no prior working relationship, biglaw on resume got me the interview. My supervisor worked on the megacorp's account as an associate at a large regional law firm (AM200).jaqenhghar wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:04 pm ... a couple of points: (i) in-house hires tend to come from the law firm associates that the in-house counsel like and (ii) biglaw name recognition still plays a role in-house in my experience.
Re: Attorney Job Search (Biglaw v. Boutique)
Why are you wanting to leave your current big law job? Consider staying, getting more involved in other clients, and seek a position within your client base.
Re: Attorney Job Search (Biglaw v. Boutique)
Why are you wanting to leave your current big law job? Consider staying, getting more involved in other clients, and seek an in-house position within your client base.
Re: Attorney Job Search (Biglaw v. Boutique)
I went from Big Law to boutique to in-house (a little more complicated, but that’s basically the progression) and it ultimately worked out quite well. I will say that my company has a smallish legal department and hires the person, not just the resume. Having big law and a great school on the resume probably helped me get my foot in the door, however.
I think if you can come up with good reasons why you went with the boutique, going that route wouldn’t hurt you if you later looked in-house. Could it? Possibly, but do you want to work for a legal department that makes it's hiring decisions based on a law firm's name alone? I wouldn't; that’s pretty shallow. In my opinion, the company would be doing you a favor if they passed you over in that case. Note that I am nowhere near New York, but surely you’ll still have options if that’s the route you choose.
Good luck,
jT
I think if you can come up with good reasons why you went with the boutique, going that route wouldn’t hurt you if you later looked in-house. Could it? Possibly, but do you want to work for a legal department that makes it's hiring decisions based on a law firm's name alone? I wouldn't; that’s pretty shallow. In my opinion, the company would be doing you a favor if they passed you over in that case. Note that I am nowhere near New York, but surely you’ll still have options if that’s the route you choose.
Good luck,
jT
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Re: Attorney Job Search (Biglaw v. Boutique)
If your next move to in-house is really important, then you may want to seek out a few headhunters who place people in the kind of in-house positions you intend to pursue next. Ask them what they think about this question. Get more than one perspective on this if possible.