To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

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vk22
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by vk22 »

FoundingFather wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:50 pm
vk22 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:16 am Hi All,

I am advising a high school sophomore on deciding his career choice. He wants to go for either
(1) a BS/MD option, which is very competitive or,
(2) Computer science undergrad, then MD

Good student, smart with very strong work ethic, good social skills, entrepreneurial, motivated strongly by money in making choices. Indian American.

Will a medical degree in a strong specialty work to his motivation of making money? Or should he stick with CS and try to be an entrepreneur?
I agree with much of the advice that has already been given. As an MD/PhD in pediatric hematology/oncology doing a mix of patient care, research, and teaching at a large academic center, I have lots of thoughts on this topic, but I also agree that too many generalize their experiences into a rule.

Here are some general thoughts:

1) The medical field is huge and different areas of medicine have very different cultures and ethos. I think that he should shadow at least three different individuals in the medical field (maybe one in research, one in clinical practice, and another in a different area of clinical practice). Then do the same in the computer science world. It should become clear to him which way he leans. If not, continue to shadow and explore as he pursues required classes, both in high school and college.


Founding Father
Great insights! If a 15 year old approaches a doctor by email to shadow, are they likely to accept? Any advice on what he should say or do? Does he send a resume with classes he is taking and a cover letter on why he wants to shadow? Are there any liability issues for the doctor to let a 15 year old come to the facility? I can pass something concrete to him.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by Sandtrap »

vk22 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:16 am Hi All,

I am advising a high school sophomore on deciding his career choice. He wants to go for either
(1) a BS/MD option, which is very competitive or,
(2) Computer science undergrad, then MD

Good student, smart with very strong work ethic, good social skills, entrepreneurial, motivated strongly by money in making choices. Indian American.

Will a medical degree in a strong specialty work to his motivation of making money? Or should he stick with CS and try to be an entrepreneur?
I was a premed major then switched to business/finance.

Real Wealth, not just FI, comes from the passion of a Champion in any field and business. If you don’t have this secret sauce, then the rest is a path, sometimes, of mediocrity, ambivalence, and safety.

Find your passion and pursue it alone and with no comparison to others.

Read “Millionaire Next Door” softcover Amazon.

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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by coachd50 »

vk22 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:16 am Hi All,

I am advising a high school sophomore on deciding his career choice. He wants to go for either
(1) a BS/MD option, which is very competitive or,
(2) Computer science undergrad, then MD

Good student, smart with very strong work ethic, good social skills, entrepreneurial, motivated strongly by money in making choices. Indian American.

Will a medical degree in a strong specialty work to his motivation of making money? Or should he stick with CS and try to be an entrepreneur?
High School Sophomore's don't make career choices. Just do the best you can and make choices that provide you with options and opportunities. Avoid choices that take away from options and opportunities.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by diabelli »

vk22 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:35 pm
InMyDreams wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:05 pm
Since his monetary-motivation has been mentioned: there are other threads on BH about ROI for an MD degree - not just the cost of med school, but the 4 years of additional study followed by a paid (but salaried) residency. Hence my question - does he need an MD degree to do what he wants to do. If he wants to do hands-on medicine, then the answer is yes. If his focus is research - well, better defining that would be useful.
I dont know enough about research areas that pay the same as an MD with same prestige. I will try to learn or send him off to someone else to learn. thanks for this
The MD/PhD research types can go into pharma and make money, but then again you don't need an MD for that. Most whom I know work in academia and make very little money compared to either private practice clinicians or even clinical-investigator types who've moved up within the academic institution. I won't say that a high income MD researcher is an oxymoron, but it may be nearly that.

I would not even consider prestige a consideration. I voluntarily left an academic super subspecialist position at a high-flying institution for a private practice job, and I can't say that even in the former role I'd ever felt on the receiving end of much fawning prestige or respect. Demands that I be perfect lest I deal with all sorts of anger and impatience? Yes, certainly that.

By the way the institutional / academic MD jobs pay so little compared to private practice (I'd had no idea before making the jump, it seems a bit well-guarded in surveys etc) that it blows the mind in retrospect. Just realizing how much money they'd been making off of me and diverting elsewhere.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by diabelli »

Another comment -- ask what his family wishes are. Divorce rates and family dysfunction are high among doctors. So are certain behavioral and mental issues from the stress over time. I met my wonderful wife because of my profession but we got a very late start on building a family -- because of this we're almost certainly ending up with a family smaller than we're realizing we'd have preferred (although blessed with the one child we do have).

Becoming a physician felt to me like getting a full start on adult life at about age 33....
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by delamer »

What’s the perceived advantage on the student’s part of majoring in computer science when the ultimate goal is getting a MD?

If he wants to be a doctor, that’s an odd path to take.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by Katietsu »

vk22 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:35 pm
InMyDreams wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:05 pm
Since his monetary-motivation has been mentioned: there are other threads on BH about ROI for an MD degree - not just the cost of med school, but the 4 years of additional study followed by a paid (but salaried) residency. Hence my question - does he need an MD degree to do what he wants to do. If he wants to do hands-on medicine, then the answer is yes. If his focus is research - well, better defining that would be useful.
I dont know enough about research areas that pay the same as an MD with same prestige. I will try to learn or send him off to someone else to learn. thanks for this
This is a challenging path where even many with a passion do not succeed.

If his attitude comes through in an interview, he will probably not get into an MD program anyway. Generally, the admissions committee want to see someone who has passion for medicine and who has volunteered, shadowed, or worked in healthcare.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by Dottie57 »

MrJones wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:23 am
Taylor Larimore wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:22 am vk22:

We don't need doctors "motivated strongly by money in making choices."

Please suggest other choices.
This a thousand times.
Agree.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by folkher0 »

vk22 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:16 am Hi All,

I am advising a high school sophomore on deciding his career choice. He wants to go for either
(1) a BS/MD option, which is very competitive or,
(2) Computer science undergrad, then MD

Good student, smart with very strong work ethic, good social skills, entrepreneurial, motivated strongly by money in making choices. Indian American.

Will a medical degree in a strong specialty work to his motivation of making money? Or should he stick with CS and try to be an entrepreneur?
MD here.

Not a huge fan of combined bachelors/MD programs. The typical high school sophomore has no idea what the life of an MD is. Frankly, by the time the kid finishes his/her training, the field will be totally different. Locking an 18 year old into a career track that takes 10 years or longer to mature is a recipe for disappointment.

"strongly motivated by money" tells me this kid should probably not commit to an MD right now.

You can go to med school after undergrad with a degree in anything (I was a history major). Tell the kid to study what he/she enjoys and apply to med school after college if he/she wants to.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by folkher0 »

delamer wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:52 pm What’s the perceived advantage on the student’s part of majoring in computer science when the ultimate goal is getting a MD?

If he wants to be a doctor, that’s an odd path to take.
I disagree. You'll see med students with a wide variety of undergrad degrees. You just have to take the science per-requisites and do well on the MCAT. I see no reason why a computer science major couldn't do well. The skills would probably be applicable in a modern medical practice. At le ast as applicable as traditional undergrad bio degree.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by onourway »

vk22 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:12 am I have had conversation on money.
He says, if a doctors motivation is only to help people, why wouldn't they do it for free or close to it?
He says why would a doctor need to get $300 or 500K in compensation?

In his opinion, most people are motivated by money. "Passion is a function of what one knows" (he's taking calc in school, so all is a "function" :)
He will only know both fields if he actually lives it. He didnt like chemistry before, but once he learnt it, he does now.

His passion is to solve problems and make most money with it! How do I do that is his question to me.. hard work is no problem for the right return, so I surmise.

He also asked how much money I make and why so less : ) I truly want to help him...thanks for all the insights so far and any more to come.
That’s an obvious response from a 15 year old, but the follow-up is fairly straightforward. Doctors are well compensated because the required training is difficult and time consuming, and because they - especially the best-compensated specialists - are tasked with making difficult decisions that can have profoundly positive or negative effects on people’s lives.

The day to day work life of a computer scientist is very different than that of the typical doctor. He really should start with which of those two very different directions his personality and interests are most aligned with.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by jharkin »

mighty72 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:21 am If the motivation is money then medicine is a not the way to go. I have seen too many kids who decide to drop out in pre-med as they come to realize that how long of a journey it is to get to big money.
Computer Science from a good school will get you to big money quicker. You don't have to do start-up, we see many posts here of people in late 20's, early 30's earning 400-500k.
Now if the kid is truly interested in being a doctor, I say go for it.
You have to live in California, work for the FANNGs and have a real talent for development to make 500k in tech. And it’s only in the past 10 years that those salaries for non senior executives where possible at all.

They may not realize it, but he humble braggers on this forum represent the top 1-5% of the tech talent pool, most of us (especially folks outside the UHCOL tech hubs) don’t make anywhere near that.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by stoptothink »

jharkin wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:57 pm
mighty72 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:21 am If the motivation is money then medicine is a not the way to go. I have seen too many kids who decide to drop out in pre-med as they come to realize that how long of a journey it is to get to big money.
Computer Science from a good school will get you to big money quicker. You don't have to do start-up, we see many posts here of people in late 20's, early 30's earning 400-500k.
Now if the kid is truly interested in being a doctor, I say go for it.
You have to live in California, work for the FANNGs and have a real talent for development to make 500k in tech. And it’s only in the past 10 years that those salaries for non senior executives where possible at all.

They may not realize it, but he humble braggers on this forum represent the top 1-5% of the tech talent pool, most of us (especially folks outside the UHCOL tech hubs) don’t make anywhere near that.
+1
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by MedSaver »

I don’t know about CS at all, but making money in medicine definitely requires sacrifices few other people would be willing to make (no matter the salary). Doctors routinely have jobs with requirements like: 30 hour call shifts, 1 day off per week, 24 hr call x 7 days, call response time from home to hospital of 30 minutes or less, working every 4th weekend, working swing or graveyard…The list goes on. If you’re doing it just for the money, these types of things will wear you down. I think the ceiling in medicine is higher than CS, but it can be a tough ladder to climb. In my experience, neurosurgeons and neuro IR typically make the most, but they have very long training paths and are on call like literally every other night.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by rob »

mighty72 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:21 am Computer Science from a good school will get you to big money quicker. You don't have to do start-up, we see many posts here of people in late 20's, early 30's earning 400-500k.
We should start with realistic expectations... In non FANG places - this is not an attainable number for that label.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by JPM »

Not sure my contribution will be helpful.

At 15 I first got the idea of becoming a doctor. Before that, I thought maybe an electrician or a cop. Or maybe a teacher or a lawyer if I could find a way to afford college. At 15 I started HS and under some duress joined a service club that provided volunteers to a variety of venues. I volunteered at an orphanage, a hospital, and several tutoring programs. I found that I liked the sense of fulfilling a useful and constructive mission and liked the people who I was working with. That gave me the idea that I doctoring might suit me and also that I should start taking school more seriously.

Among my HS classmates, a few of the 75 attorneys have made big money, low-mid 8 figure NW being big money hereabouts. One of the accountants became head of a big accounting firm in NYC and I'm sure he is at least mid 8s. The really big money was made by the financial guys and the electrical engineers. There are 13 doctors and none of them have made what I would consider big money, though one is a radiologist and I'm sure is close to, or reached low 8s.

Among my kids' friends, the financial guys are far and away the biggest earners. Some of them have made low 8s in a single year and mid 7s in other good years. Some of them consider a low 7 figure bonus to be an insult. Nothing I know of pays big like big finance. They recruit math, physics, and engineering grads from top schools for entry level positions in trading. You need math to be a part of you, like the piano is a part of a concert pianist, to do the rapid mental math needed for accurate assessments of trading opportunities. Then there are the guys who do the programming of the algorithmic trading systems and they make big money too.

A kid who is motivated chiefly by money IMO is best advised to seek a career in finance. If you live near a financial center, work family contacts to find a low level job at an exchange. The exchanges make training facilities available to their employees and a young man or woman can learn a lot both from the job and from the schooling there. Failing that, a job in a bank or financial firm is the next best thing. If the money madness in that milieu is exciting to the youngster, he or she is in the right place. On the other hand if he or she prefers to volunteer at hospitals, tutoring centers, soup kitchens, etc then medicine is the better choice.

Seeking big money is a poor motivation for medicine and likely to lead to disappointment at best and an unhappy sense of resentment at worst. Many young doctors on these threads seem to be miserable. If ytou don't have a strong sense of mission in medicine, you will probably not live your best life in it.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by stoptothink »

JPM wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:34 pm Not sure my contribution will be helpful.

At 15 I first got the idea of becoming a doctor. Before that, I thought maybe an electrician or a cop. Or maybe a teacher or a lawyer if I could find a way to afford college. At 15 I started HS and under some duress joined a service club that provided volunteers to a variety of venues. I volunteered at an orphanage, a hospital, and several tutoring programs. I found that I liked the sense of fulfilling a useful and constructive mission and liked the people who I was working with. That gave me the idea that I doctoring might suit me and also that I should start taking school more seriously.

Among my HS classmates, a few of the 75 attorneys have made big money, low-mid 8 figure NW being big money hereabouts. One of the accountants became head of a big accounting firm in NYC and I'm sure he is at least mid 8s. The really big money was made by the financial guys and the electrical engineers. There are 13 doctors and none of them have made what I would consider big money, though one is a radiologist and I'm sure is close to, or reached low 8s.

Among my kids' friends, the financial guys are far and away the biggest earners. Some of them have made low 8s in a single year and mid 7s in other good years. Some of them consider a low 7 figure bonus to be an insult. Nothing I know of pays big like big finance. They recruit math, physics, and engineering grads from top schools for entry level positions in trading. You need math to be a part of you, like the piano is a part of a concert pianist, to do the rapid mental math needed for accurate assessments of trading opportunities. Then there are the guys who do the programming of the algorithmic trading systems and they make big money too.

A kid who is motivated chiefly by money IMO is best advised to seek a career in finance. If you live near a financial center, work family contacts to find a low level job at an exchange. The exchanges make training facilities available to their employees and a young man or woman can learn a lot both from the job and from the schooling there. Failing that, a job in a bank or financial firm is the next best thing. If the money madness in that milieu is exciting to the youngster, he or she is in the right place. On the other hand if he or she prefers to volunteer at hospitals, tutoring centers, soup kitchens, etc then medicine is the better choice.

Seeking big money is a poor motivation for medicine and likely to lead to disappointment at best and an unhappy sense of resentment at worst. Many young doctors on these threads seem to be miserable. If ytou don't have a strong sense of mission in medicine, you will probably not live your best life in it.
75 attorneys in your high school graduating class? Your kids have multiple friends who earn 8-figures a year? You seem to have a slightly different social circle than I do.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by stan1 »

namajones wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:57 am
100factorial wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:23 am The medical field is changing. I would suggest that he identity and follow his passion (aside from making money). Going into medicine primarily for the money may lead to unhappiness, and is unfair to the patients he will be serving.
+1

Also, going into computers means sitting on your tail all day, every day. Not for everyone--unhealthy and solitary work.
Not really, there are a lot of more people-centric options as well. Not every person working in computers types at a keyboard all day and plenty of white collar jobs under telework involve email, applications, and Zoom calls (so equally unhealthy and solitary if that's a thing).
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by diabelli »

By "low 8s" I must assume that 800,000s is meant, rather than 8 figures. Otherwise I've been hanging with the wrong radiologists
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by KrisNC »

If he is a HS Sophomore, there is no rush to decide on a career path right now.
Other than his motivation to choose a high paying career, I didn’t see any specifics of where his interests lie?
Firstly he needs to focus on doing well at school, is he a top student in a high performing school ?
Is he taking any AP/IB classes and challenging himself? Many schools offer PSAT for Soph, so he should take that and see where he stands.
I think it’s premature to decide on a career path now, especially when he doesn’t appear to prefer medicine or CS or anything specific.
Join clubs, shadow, and take part in competitions.
Kids who are passionate about medicine, are doing hospital volunteering, Science Oly, research etc, and same with Math/CS students, taking part in AMC/AMIE/ARML etc.

If his parents are immigrants, they may not be aware, in the US liberal arts system, one can study any major and decide later on about Medical or law school.
I know English majors going to Med school and Electrical Engineers who became Dentists or PTs.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by killjoy2012 »

rob wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:30 pm
mighty72 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:21 am Computer Science from a good school will get you to big money quicker. You don't have to do start-up, we see many posts here of people in late 20's, early 30's earning 400-500k.
We should start with realistic expectations... In non FANG places - this is not an attainable number for that label.
x100

Two CS degrees, MS from 1 of the top 2 US colleges for such. Thinking you're just going to get a CS degree, then a job and be making $400-500k by 30 (or ever) is way, way off. Maybe, if you win the job lottery at a FAANG based in a VHCOL area. Even then, good luck.

Meanwhile, most CS-degreed people will start in the $60-70k range and lucky to break $100k by 30, and $200k by 50. COL factors aside.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by PapaB »

Informal and nonscientific personal polling finds that there are many financially successful doctors (and attorneys and investment bankers) who do not enjoy their work but are chained to it to support a lifestyle. Fewer CS, engineers, scientists, and CPAs feel that way. Any of these fields will provide enough money to live comfortably for anyone with even modest financial discipline. His (anyone's) long-term happiness will be best served by finding something he loves and that can support a reasonable lifestyle, not just something that pays well.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by stoptothink »

diabelli wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:42 pm By "low 8s" I must assume that 800,000s is meant, rather than 8 figures. Otherwise I've been hanging with the wrong radiologists
"Some of them consider a low 7 figure bonus to be an insult..."

Based upon that subsequent statement, sounds like you are wrong. I think pretty much everybody hangs out with the "wrong people" compared to JPM.

A lot of the compensation numbers commonly thrown around on this board (especially for tech, which my wife, mom, and most of my friends are in), are far far above what available data would suggest is "normal".
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by Afty »

If money is the goal, why not consider business? Consult for a few years and then get an MBA. Aim for an executive level position at a public company.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by shess »

onourway wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:40 pm
vk22 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:12 am I have had conversation on money.
He says, if a doctors motivation is only to help people, why wouldn't they do it for free or close to it?
He says why would a doctor need to get $300 or 500K in compensation?

In his opinion, most people are motivated by money. "Passion is a function of what one knows" (he's taking calc in school, so all is a "function" :)
He will only know both fields if he actually lives it. He didnt like chemistry before, but once he learnt it, he does now.

His passion is to solve problems and make most money with it! How do I do that is his question to me.. hard work is no problem for the right return, so I surmise.

He also asked how much money I make and why so less : ) I truly want to help him...thanks for all the insights so far and any more to come.
That’s an obvious response from a 15 year old, but the follow-up is fairly straightforward. Doctors are well compensated because the required training is difficult and time consuming, and because they - especially the best-compensated specialists - are tasked with making difficult decisions that can have profoundly positive or negative effects on people’s lives.
This is a great point which I had been confusing myself trying to make! It's like investing in that an insight such as "Field <X> is going to be big in the future!" is only useful if <X> actually _does_ become big, and if you can productively invest in <X> at a fair price. If <X> doubles in size but you paid a 100% premium to buy in, that wasn't really that great of an investment! Anyhow, a working doctor makes great money relative to a working hairdresser, but the doctor's net earnings are less for the first 15 or 20 years, and a lot can change in 20 years (maybe you change specialty and now it takes 25 years to make net earnings). The penalty for being wrong and changing their path is MUCH higher for the doctor.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by Spring garden »

vk22 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:12 am I have had conversation on money.

In his opinion, most people are motivated by money.

His passion is to solve problems and make most money with it! How do I do that is his question to me.. hard work is no problem for the right return, so I surmise.
He should do anything except medicine. Whatever he perceives would have the most interesting problems and pay well. CS, finance, etc. If he wanted to do medicine his #1,2, & 3 reasons for doing it should be some version of "to help people".
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by international001 »

For a BH philosophy that tries to illuminate people with data vs intuition, it's amazing how many opinions we get when we talk about compensation.
I would like to see more quoted real distribution salaries instead of anecdotical ones. For instance:

https://appliedcomputing.wisconsin.edu/ ... ng-salary/
https://www.kaptest.com/study/mcat/doct ... specialty/

In US, doctors make more *in general*, than any other professionals. Even if you adjust for years of lower income, loans, etc.
My guess is that this may change in the future because of globalization. But it's just a guess, I may be wrong.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by TheDDC »

mighty72 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:21 am If the motivation is money then medicine is a not the way to go. I have seen too many kids who decide to drop out in pre-med as they come to realize that how long of a journey it is to get to big money.
Computer Science from a good school will get you to big money quicker. You don't have to do start-up, we see many posts here of people in late 20's, early 30's earning 400-500k.
Now if the kid is truly interested in being a doctor, I say go for it.
"Good school" doesn't really matter at all for most everything these days, including CS majors. Most "computer science" folks would actually be fine with a two year degree and maybe a certification or two once they figure their specialty, unless they are going into software design (POSSIBLY) or data science. There are other considerations if he is considering grad school of course, but a M.S. in Comp Sci is double useless unless you want to stay in higher ed or get into a professional research gig. What matters is whether or not they can do the work and pull their load. There is no correlation to salary and school, and I say this as a CS major.

As for $400-500k... that's definitely not "average" unless you're talking crazy HCOL areas like CA, NY, and DC. What happens in those places is definitely not indicative of what's happening in the rest of America.

As for OP: These are completely different fields. When I was his age I was considering chemistry, mathematics, and/or Computer Science. Perhaps your son would benefit from talking with folks who are in these career paths. I would also advise him to look into some real world internship possibilities to put him in closer proximity to these fields. As a comp sci major I focused heavily on network/systems architecture. I love it and would never want to be a programmer. For your son, he could feel differently. But his focus in CS could possibly put him on a different trajectory.

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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by White Coat Investor »

vk22 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:16 am Hi All,

I am advising a high school sophomore on deciding his career choice. He wants to go for either
(1) a BS/MD option, which is very competitive or,
(2) Computer science undergrad, then MD

Good student, smart with very strong work ethic, good social skills, entrepreneurial, motivated strongly by money in making choices. Indian American.

Will a medical degree in a strong specialty work to his motivation of making money? Or should he stick with CS and try to be an entrepreneur?
My pre-med nephew just decided he didn't want to be a doctor anymore...one week into his first college biology course. I wouldn't bother putting too much into what a 10th grader thinks their career is going to be. At this stage I'd work on keeping as many doors open as possible. This decision is at least 2 years away for this student. Just encourage good grades and learning more about all fields he may be interested in.

While there are careers that make a lot more than doctors and any competent doctor will need to be motivated by more than money and the money that you can make in medicine is highly delayed, it's not like you have to subscribe to a monk-like existence to go into medicine. Doctors still make about $275K on average with a very wide range around that number. Managed well and without too much in student loans, it still works out just fine financially.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course
srt7
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by srt7 »

OP, if his motivation is money then steer him towards Finance or Business. We wouldn't ask someone who's motivation is healing people to take Business because someday they would start their own hospital, now would we?

Another factor to consider is "barrier to entry". Unlike Law (Bar exam), Medicine (MD, Residency), Engineering (PE) etc., Computer Science has ZERO professional protection. Anyone can pick up a couple books and learn how to code. Granted they may start as a lowly code monkey at an unknown corp but after a couple years IF they're natural software developers they can compete with CS grads from top 10 schools even. FAANG will relax the rules for the right candidates because unlike the Bar exam or a PE certification there is no real exam to pass.
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srt7
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by srt7 »

shess wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:33 pm
This is a great point which I had been confusing myself trying to make! It's like investing in that an insight such as "Field <X> is going to be big in the future!" is only useful if <X> actually _does_ become big, and if you can productively invest in <X> at a fair price. If <X> doubles in size but you paid a 100% premium to buy in, that wasn't really that great of an investment! Anyhow, a working doctor makes great money relative to a working hairdresser, but the doctor's net earnings are less for the first 15 or 20 years, and a lot can change in 20 years (maybe you change specialty and now it takes 25 years to make net earnings). The penalty for being wrong and changing their path is MUCH higher for the doctor.
Exactly!! Which is why their motivation to "help and heal people" should be that MUCH higher to even think about entering this profession. Prestige be damned! Money be damned! Those are by-products and not end goals to pursue a career in medicine.
Taking care of tomorrow while enjoying today.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by srt7 »

TheDDC wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:02 pm
mighty72 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:21 am If the motivation is money then medicine is a not the way to go. I have seen too many kids who decide to drop out in pre-med as they come to realize that how long of a journey it is to get to big money.
Computer Science from a good school will get you to big money quicker. You don't have to do start-up, we see many posts here of people in late 20's, early 30's earning 400-500k.
Now if the kid is truly interested in being a doctor, I say go for it.
"Good school" doesn't really matter at all for most everything these days, including CS majors. Most "computer science" folks would actually be fine with a two year degree and maybe a certification or two once they figure their specialty, unless they are going into software design (POSSIBLY) or data science. There are other considerations if he is considering grad school of course, but a M.S. in Comp Sci is double useless unless you want to stay in higher ed or get into a professional research gig. What matters is whether or not they can do the work and pull their load. There is no correlation to salary and school, and I say this as a CS major.

As for $400-500k... that's definitely not "average" unless you're talking crazy HCOL areas like CA, NY, and DC. What happens in those places is definitely not indicative of what's happening in the rest of America.

As for OP: These are completely different fields. When I was his age I was considering chemistry, mathematics, and/or Computer Science. Perhaps your son would benefit from talking with folks who are in these career paths. I would also advise him to look into some real world internship possibilities to put him in closer proximity to these fields. As a comp sci major I focused heavily on network/systems architecture. I love it and would never want to be a programmer. For your son, he could feel differently. But his focus in CS could possibly put him on a different trajectory.

-TheDDC
Ouch! :D
Taking care of tomorrow while enjoying today.
stoptothink
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by stoptothink »

international001 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:56 pm For a BH philosophy that tries to illuminate people with data vs intuition, it's amazing how many opinions we get when we talk about compensation.
I would like to see more quoted real distribution salaries instead of anecdotical ones. For instance:

https://appliedcomputing.wisconsin.edu/ ... ng-salary/
https://www.kaptest.com/study/mcat/doct ... specialty/

In US, doctors make more *in general*, than any other professionals. Even if you adjust for years of lower income, loans, etc.
My guess is that this may change in the future because of globalization. But it's just a guess, I may be wrong.
It's Lake Wobegon, all our kids are going Ivy League and everybody in tech we know is the tiny fraction of tech industry employees that are at FAANG and make $400k+/yr by 30.
toofache32
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by toofache32 »

vk22 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:16 am Hi All,

I am advising a high school sophomore on deciding his career choice. He wants to go for either
(1) a BS/MD option, which is very competitive or,
(2) Computer science undergrad, then MD

Good student, smart with very strong work ethic, good social skills, entrepreneurial, motivated strongly by money in making choices. Indian American.

Will a medical degree in a strong specialty work to his motivation of making money? Or should he stick with CS and try to be an entrepreneur?
I'm not sure I understand this. A medical degree is just a generic degree and they are all the same. Specialty is determined by post-graduate residency training, not by your degree.
Last edited by toofache32 on Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mr. Rumples
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by Mr. Rumples »

Pay has nothing to do with prestige to equate the two shows how far the young man has to mature. A person can be rich and be despised.

I think it was the New York Times which called Oliver Sacks the "poet laureate of medicine." Dr. Sacks got that by following his passion for medicine, not wealth. His influence, whit and genius will live on now that he has passed - it had nothing to do with money, but rather a passion for learning, teaching and helping.
"History is the memory of time, the life of the dead and the happiness of the living." Captain John Smith 1580-1631
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by HawkeyePierce »

jharkin wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:57 pm
mighty72 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:21 am If the motivation is money then medicine is a not the way to go. I have seen too many kids who decide to drop out in pre-med as they come to realize that how long of a journey it is to get to big money.
Computer Science from a good school will get you to big money quicker. You don't have to do start-up, we see many posts here of people in late 20's, early 30's earning 400-500k.
Now if the kid is truly interested in being a doctor, I say go for it.
You have to live in California, work for the FANNGs and have a real talent for development to make 500k in tech. And it’s only in the past 10 years that those salaries for non senior executives where possible at all.

They may not realize it, but he humble braggers on this forum represent the top 1-5% of the tech talent pool, most of us (especially folks outside the UHCOL tech hubs) don’t make anywhere near that.
Far from true. I live in Colorado and work for a non-FAANG and am on track to hit $425k this year. And we've got ~200 people here on a similar comp trajectory. I know of several other non-FAANG companies in the area with similar comp.

The industry has changed a lot in the last few years.
Last edited by HawkeyePierce on Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
FactualFran
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by FactualFran »

vk22 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:02 pm Great insights! If a 15 year old approaches a doctor by email to shadow, are they likely to accept? Any advice on what he should say or do? Does he send a resume with classes he is taking and a cover letter on why he wants to shadow? Are there any liability issues for the doctor to let a 15 year old come to the facility? I can pass something concrete to him.
Have the doctors to be contacted indicated any interest in being shadowed by a 15 year old? If not, it is likely not a good idea to contact them.
Impatience
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by Impatience »

Taylor Larimore wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:22 am
vk22 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:16 am Hi All,

I am advising a high school sophomore on deciding his career choice. He wants to go for either
(1) a BS/MD option, which is very competitive or,
(2) Computer science undergrad, then MD

Good student, smart with very strong work ethic, good social skills, entrepreneurial, motivated strongly by money in making choices. Indian American.

Will a medical degree in a strong specialty work to his motivation of making money? Or should he stick with CS and try to be an entrepreneur?
vk22:

We don't need doctors "motivated strongly by money in making choices."

Please suggest other choices.

Best wishes.
Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom: “I challenge the growing trend in our society to give numbers a credence that they simply don’t deserve, all the while assigning far less importance to the things that can’t be expressed with numbers – qualities such as wisdom, integrity, ethics, and commitment.”
Lol what? that’s what most of the doctors here are obviously motivated by. Money and money. And that’s not a bad thing. Like any job you usually have to do a decent job to be successful. Money is a fine motivator for engineers and analysts and also yes doctors.
brianH
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by brianH »

Wannaretireearly wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:51 pm What has the kid done to show CS aptitude? Programming + Math success
This is the part I don't understand. I'm from the era (Apple II/Commodores were available) where people that went into software engineering were programming from a very young age. Especially now, with basically everything you need to become an expert online, I'd expect anyone that is likely to succeed over a long career in software to be programming already before college. If there's little interest up until now, I don't think it's a switch that can be flipped so easily.
folkher0
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by folkher0 »

Impatience wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:43 pm
Taylor Larimore wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:22 am
vk22 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:16 am Hi All,

I am advising a high school sophomore on deciding his career choice. He wants to go for either
(1) a BS/MD option, which is very competitive or,
(2) Computer science undergrad, then MD

Good student, smart with very strong work ethic, good social skills, entrepreneurial, motivated strongly by money in making choices. Indian American.

Will a medical degree in a strong specialty work to his motivation of making money? Or should he stick with CS and try to be an entrepreneur?
vk22:

We don't need doctors "motivated strongly by money in making choices."

Please suggest other choices.

Best wishes.
Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom: “I challenge the growing trend in our society to give numbers a credence that they simply don’t deserve, all the while assigning far less importance to the things that can’t be expressed with numbers – qualities such as wisdom, integrity, ethics, and commitment.”
Lol what? that’s what most of the doctors here are obviously motivated by. Money and money. And that’s not a bad thing. Like any job you usually have to do a decent job to be successful. Money is a fine motivator for engineers and analysts and also yes doctors.
Thing is for most of us the money isn’t enough to justify the debt, decades of training, lifestyle sacrifice, and high stress.

I missed my kids soccer for the third weekend in a row. I’ll be heading in to the hospital in the middle the night tonight (Sunday) to do an operation.

There’s a recent thread from a radiologist who makes a ton of money and is looking to get out after only a few years.

If money is your primary motivation I promise you that your twenties, thirties and maybe forties are gonna be miserable and you’ll probably quit along the way. If you don’t, you probably aren’t going to be very good and might not make as much as you expect anyway.

Is that worth it?
toofache32
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by toofache32 »

brianH wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:00 pm
Wannaretireearly wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:51 pm What has the kid done to show CS aptitude? Programming + Math success
This is the part I don't understand. I'm from the era (Apple II/Commodores were available) where people that went into software engineering were programming from a very young age. Especially now, with basically everything you need to become an expert online, I'd expect anyone that is likely to succeed over a long career in software to be programming already before college. If there's little interest up until now, I don't think it's a switch that can be flipped so easily.
I was thinking this also. As a college graduate with a degree in music, you don't just show up to college having never played an instrument before. You've been doing it for years already. I would hope that computer science is similar. The computer experience for many kids these days is limited to their myface page.
TheDDC
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by TheDDC »

folkher0 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:23 pm Thing is for most of us the money isn’t enough to justify the debt, decades of training, lifestyle sacrifice, and high stress.

I missed my kids soccer for the third weekend in a row. I’ll be heading in to the hospital in the middle the night tonight (Sunday) to do an operation.

There’s a recent thread from a radiologist who makes a ton of money and is looking to get out after only a few years.

If money is your primary motivation I promise you that your twenties, thirties and maybe forties are gonna be miserable and you’ll probably quit along the way. If you don’t, you probably aren’t going to be very good and might not make as much as you expect anyway.

Is that worth it?
Wow. This one hit me. Very true. I can't imagine living in a world with piles of debt for a career/major that no longer gives me joy after only 5-10 years anymore. What's life look like after that? A mental prison?

More reason why it's not a good idea to go into college debt, especially for that sure thing "lucrative career". Nope.

-TheDDC
Rules to wealth building: 75-80% VTSAX piled high and deep, 20-25% VTIAX, 0% given away to banks.
toofache32
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by toofache32 »

Impatience wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:43 pm
Taylor Larimore wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:22 am
vk22 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:16 am Hi All,

I am advising a high school sophomore on deciding his career choice. He wants to go for either
(1) a BS/MD option, which is very competitive or,
(2) Computer science undergrad, then MD

Good student, smart with very strong work ethic, good social skills, entrepreneurial, motivated strongly by money in making choices. Indian American.

Will a medical degree in a strong specialty work to his motivation of making money? Or should he stick with CS and try to be an entrepreneur?
vk22:

We don't need doctors "motivated strongly by money in making choices."

Please suggest other choices.

Best wishes.
Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom: “I challenge the growing trend in our society to give numbers a credence that they simply don’t deserve, all the while assigning far less importance to the things that can’t be expressed with numbers – qualities such as wisdom, integrity, ethics, and commitment.”
Lol what? that’s what most of the doctors here are obviously motivated by. Money and money. And that’s not a bad thing. Like any job you usually have to do a decent job to be successful. Money is a fine motivator for engineers and analysts and also yes doctors.
I was thinking the same thing. If you're not motivated by money then you're stupid. Money fills your stomach with food, puts shelter over your head, and takes care of your kids. I'm willing to bet everyone here goes to work everyday for the same reason...so that someday they won't have to go to work.
gubernaculum
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by gubernaculum »

He should do both. Combine MD with computer science and work to disrupt the current Paleolithic medical system. Medicine will change significantly. Vast majority of information is freely available and physical exam is for the most part useless. Unless you are a procedure based physician, your job will be replaced by nurse practitioners and other allied health professionals. However, the combo of MD and computer science is the future.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by campy2010 »

I haven’t read the entire thread but in my opinion a 15 year old shouldn’t be deciding on anything career-related and anyone encouraging a 15 year old to make career decisions at age 15 shouldn’t be mentoring teenagers. A mentor should be broadening horizons not narrowing them. Encouraged the teen to explore their options and to keep an open mind and to explore fields that interest them and where they have talent. The conversation should be around taking the classes that set them up to be able to pursue the fields of interest down the road but also to use their education as an opportunity to explore new fields/topics. There are many careers that aren’t obvious to a 15 year old and most people end up in them by pursuing their interests. Introduce the teen to fields that he doesn’t know about already. And let him know that he can and should re-evaluate in college.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by White Coat Investor »

toofache32 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:34 pm I was thinking the same thing. If you're not motivated by money then you're stupid. Money fills your stomach with food, puts shelter over your head, and takes care of your kids. I'm willing to bet everyone here goes to work everyday for the same reason...so that someday they won't have to go to work.
Then you'd be wrong. Many people work after financial independence. In fact, I would argue nobody knows how much they're working for the money or not until they're FI.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course
toofache32
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by toofache32 »

White Coat Investor wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:49 pm
toofache32 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:34 pm I was thinking the same thing. If you're not motivated by money then you're stupid. Money fills your stomach with food, puts shelter over your head, and takes care of your kids. I'm willing to bet everyone here goes to work everyday for the same reason...so that someday they won't have to go to work.
Then you'd be wrong. Many people work after financial independence. In fact, I would argue nobody knows how much they're working for the money or not until they're FI.
So people who work after financial independence are OK with not getting paid? That's my point. Everyone who works calculates the financial return. While you may have other reasons, money is still a factor.
Last edited by toofache32 on Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RetiredCSProf
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by RetiredCSProf »

I would suggest two other choices:
3) CS undergrad and then law school
4) MD or a career in a different health-care field (physical therapist, veterinarian, ...)

Other than general education requirements (such as Freshman English and Sociology 101), there is little overlap between pre-med classes (Organic Chemistry and Physiology) and CS requirements (Differential Equations and Operating Systems). A premed undergraduate education can lead to a career in many health-related fields, so it would make more sense to consider these versus MD.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by White Coat Investor »

toofache32 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:20 pm
White Coat Investor wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:49 pm
toofache32 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:34 pm I was thinking the same thing. If you're not motivated by money then you're stupid. Money fills your stomach with food, puts shelter over your head, and takes care of your kids. I'm willing to bet everyone here goes to work everyday for the same reason...so that someday they won't have to go to work.
Then you'd be wrong. Many people work after financial independence. In fact, I would argue nobody knows how much they're working for the money or not until they're FI.
So people who work after financial independence are OK with not getting paid? That's my point. Everyone who works calculates the financial return.
In volunteer positions it happens all the time. But when the money changes nothing about your life, it really doesn't matter much when you think about it logically.
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by beyou »

Tell him to code (AP CS course would best show him a glimpse of a CS major). Tell him to take AP SCIENCE courses and get a summer or part time job in a hospital or Doc office to see the real world. This will influence him to make informed decisions.
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