Patent Application Costs?

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AnnetteLouisan
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Patent Application Costs?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

A friend is a very entrepreneurial kind of guy who has a few interesting and inventive new product ideas, three in the automotive accessory space and one in household/personal care. Anyone know ballpark figures for getting a non attorney to submit a patent application these days? or does it have to be done by a lawyer. Thank you in advance for any suggestions for someone going through this process.
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nss20
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Re: Patent Application Costs?

Post by nss20 »

The ballpark figures are all over the map. It is possible to spend $100K for 3 or 4 patents. It is also possible to do it on your own for a lot less.

An intermediate step is for you to work with an attorney where you write up the disclosure and prepare the figures. You can then work with the attorney to draft your claims.

Caveat: Even if you are granted a patent, a process that can take 1-5 years, you will still have to pay regular maintenance fees. I am firmly of the opinion that the vast majority of patents have no commercial value and many are not even novel. The patent gives you a right to sue for infringement and the first defense by an infringer is to show that the patent is not novel and should not have been granted.
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AnnetteLouisan
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Re: Patent Application Costs?

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nss20 wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:44 pm The ballpark figures are all over the map. It is possible to spend $100K for 3 or 4 patents. It is also possible to do it on your own for a lot less.

An intermediate step is for you to work with an attorney where you write up the disclosure and prepare the figures. You can then work with the attorney to draft your claims.

Caveat: Even if you are granted a patent, a process that can take 1-5 years, you will still have to pay regular maintenance fees. I am firmly of the opinion that the vast majority of patents have no commercial value and many are not even novel. The patent gives you a right to sue for infringement and the first defense by an infringer is to show that the patent is not novel and should not have been granted.
Thank you for the head’s up! That is helpful. Maybe he should just start the business first and not put the cart before the horse.
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Re: Patent Application Costs?

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interwebopinion
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Re: Patent Application Costs?

Post by interwebopinion »

A good solid patent filing can cost $10k+, with maintenance upwards of that. Of course, your friend should be filing it only if the idea has that kind of potential.

Can he test market demand before proceeding with the patenting? For example, 3d print the accessory, and sell it at a local market? Usually, the first version will have lots of problems, so he may have to do a v2 or a v3 before it sparks interest. The key test is whether he is able to sell consistently.

With this process, he would learn a lot about how and why people are buying the product (user-defined benefits, not what he thinks, but confirmed by the market), which will help him nail the marketing. It would be easier to raise investment for a good patent attorney and volume manufacturing with evidence of demand.

This is a great book on the patenting process: https://store.nolo.com/products/patent- ... f-pat.html

Make sure to review the provisional patenting process. He can file one inexpensively on his own when it's clear the idea has legs, and he can file the final up to one year later through an attorney.
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Re: Patent Application Costs?

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nss20 wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:44 pm The patent gives you a right to sue for infringement and the first defense by an infringer is to show that the patent is not novel and should not have been granted.
Patent examiners are pretty strict these days, and it's becoming harder to get bad patents through. In addition, the challenge process you cite is not easy by any means, and if the patent is solid, has a low chance of succeeding. There are companies that generate huge revenues on the strength of their patents alone.
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Re: Patent Application Costs?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Search any idea that is thought to be novel in the USPTO database.

Understand that when you get a patent, you tell the world what you're doing and how. Sometimes, you do better keeping everything secret and pitch it to companies who might want to manufacture it.

And of course when you do get a patent, other companies or people can sue to get the patent thrown out.

I'm not a big fan of the patent process and I have 2. One has clear prior art which the USPTO used to argue against mine. My company lawyers have enough clout, I guess to push it through.
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Re: Patent Application Costs?

Post by jetstream »

It is a very complicated subject and there are a lot of misconceptions out there. It is unlikely a layperson can get a good patent without substantial study and practice.

The cost depends a lot on the complexity of the invention and what happens in the Patent Office. If you use a small law firm, $15k for a utility patent for a simple invention is a good rule of thumb. The total maintenance fee cost paid over the term of the patent is currently about $7k for small entities, half that for micro-entities.

There are several good reasons to get a patent. Here are a few:
1. Deter competitors, suppliers and others from copying an invention. Most companies don't want to risk an infringement suit.
2. Provide some bargaining power if there is a dispute.
3. Add value to a business or product. VC's, banks, investors and buyout people like patents, even if they do not fully understand them.
4. Add credibility to a product. Consumers like patented products.

Most patents probably do not pay off for various reasons, but some patents pay off very well. As in investing, it is important to diversify.
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Re: Patent Application Costs?

Post by ElJefeDelQueso »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:25 pm A friend is a very entrepreneurial kind of guy who has a few interesting and inventive new product ideas, three in the automotive accessory space and one in household/personal care. Anyone know ballpark figures for getting a non attorney to submit a patent application these days? or does it have to be done by a lawyer. Thank you in advance for any suggestions for someone going through this process.
Probably budget 20k per. Most of the time for a small player trade secrets are better. It's expensive to defend a patent.
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Re: Patent Application Costs?

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AnnetteLouisan wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:25 pm A friend is a very entrepreneurial kind of guy who has a few interesting and inventive new product ideas, three in the automotive accessory space and one in household/personal care. Anyone know ballpark figures for getting a non attorney to submit a patent application these days? or does it have to be done by a lawyer. Thank you in advance for any suggestions for someone going through this process.
The fees for submitting the application are listed on the uspto.gov website, under patent, then fees. Your upfront fees are the filing, search, and examination fees. Plus excess claim fees if you go over a certain number (3/20). How much you pay to the PTO in fees depends upon whether you are a large entity, small entity, or microentity. Then there are other fees down the road, such as an allowance fee, maintenance fees, extension fees, etc.

In terms of going pro se, I have to say that I've picked up a few pro se applications over the years, and generally speaking, they have presented challenges, to put it mildly. The cost of hiring attorney will range depending upon attorney billing rate, complexity of the invention, how complicated examination becomes, whether the examiner issues a restriction requirement dividing the case into 2 (or more) separate applications, whether an appeal is necessary, and other factors too numerous to list.

I agree with other posters that it is a good idea to consider a patentability search, whether you try to conduct it yourself or hire a firm that specializes in such searches. You can find plenty using a search engine, e.g., google, yahoo, etc.

Best of luck,
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Re: Patent Application Costs?

Post by sport »

I once read about a man who patented a device which has been in widespread use for many years. It was such a good invention, that manufacturers just started to use it. So, the man sued the companies that were using his invention. These are big companies with large legal staffs. They dragged legal proceedings on for years and the man become obsessed with trying to win his cases. It ruined the rest of his life. So, if an individual gets a patent for a good invention, the big companies can take it away from the individual just because they can.
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Re: Patent Application Costs?

Post by randomguy »

interwebopinion wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:55 pm
nss20 wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:44 pm The patent gives you a right to sue for infringement and the first defense by an infringer is to show that the patent is not novel and should not have been granted.
Patent examiners are pretty strict these days, and it's becoming harder to get bad patents through. In addition, the challenge process you cite is not easy by any means, and if the patent is solid, has a low chance of succeeding. There are companies that generate huge revenues on the strength of their patents alone.
Those companies generating huge revenue tend to have enormous legal staffs to try and enforce their patent. The question is what are your odds of doing the same. It is one thing to have a patented drug. It is another to have some utility patent that is relatively easy to work around. Without knowing the exact product it is hard to say if the patent will gain you much. But if you look in the automotive/personal care industry, you can buy knock off products of just about every patented product. I am guessing the value is about zero.
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Re: Patent Application Costs?

Post by interwebopinion »

randomguy wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:39 am Those companies generating huge revenue tend to have enormous legal staffs to try and enforce their patent. The question is what are your odds of doing the same. It is one thing to have a patented drug. It is another to have some utility patent that is relatively easy to work around. Without knowing the exact product it is hard to say if the patent will gain you much. But if you look in the automotive/personal care industry, you can buy knock off products of just about every patented product. I am guessing the value is about zero.
This is a common misconception. If the product is worth something, you should be able to afford legal representation to bring even the big bad guys to heel. Many times a simple cease and desist letter, as opposed to a full-on lawsuit, can do the trick. Large companies are averse to bad publicity, and willful bad conduct can triple damages.

See for example (and usually a patent case would be a stronger hand than this): https://www.gibbsbruns.com/federal-cour ... ufacturer/

Also, the process of figuring out exactly what the market wants (iterating from the first version) will uncover simple but non-obvious changes that can form the basis of a very defensible patent.
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Re: Patent Application Costs?

Post by nanotube »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:25 pm Anyone know ballpark figures for getting a non attorney to submit a patent application these days? or does it have to be done by a lawyer.
Short answer to your Q is no, getting a patent (referred to as patent prosecution) does not require an attorney. One can DIY the drafting and application process on one's own ("pro se"), and the patent office has a webpage about it. More often a practitioner is hired to represent a person to get a patent much like accountants are hired to file tax, and authorized practitioners are called patent agents or patent attorneys.

Practitioners mostly bill by the hour, and patent agents generally are cheaper than patent attorneys because agents did not have to pass the bar thus can only work on dealing with the patent office to prosecute patents (which suits your case), and cannot give legal advice. Patent agents and attorneys are usually employed in patent law or IP law firms. You can ask local entrepreneurs for referrals of patent law firms they used.

The most direct answer as to pricing is you get what you pay for. If you ask a law firm you will probably only get an answer of "it depends" if you are looking for numbers. Some firm's patent agent may bill at a higher rate that some other firm's senior patent lawyer. In general, drafting the patent application is the most time-consuming part (meaning $$$ billed), and can be in the $10,000 range per pop. Some firms have startup package and you can ask about it.

Let me back up a bit: because patent application is a sunken cost (that $10k per application is going to be followed by $50-$100k in the next 3 years before a patent is granted, if it can be granted after examination), your friend should think about the business case for such an expense when there is zero revenue now. A patent practitioner may help in this regard much like an accountant or financial planner can help a business with their experience in accounting.

Is a VC asking about patents? If so maybe getting a quick patent granted is worth it to be put on pitch decks. Are there investors willing to cover the patent application? Is the idea so worth it in its market space that there is potential revenue to get the mega corp to license these patents (e.g. patent for the intermittent wipers used by Ford)? A patent practitioner can offer services to help look at the chances of getting it patented and put a valuation on a patent in this regard. Or is the plan to make the widgets yourself? Do you know if others already hold patents to block you from doing it such that your business plan needs to change? A patent practitioner can also help with that (called freedom to operate). Lastly, it is not uncommon for a startup to look at all the questions and seeing how cash-strapped it was, to decide to wing-it for a year without patent protection, at least until the next funding round.
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Re: Patent Application Costs?

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These are all outstanding comments. I’ll try to get some answers asap. No VC is asking - nothing has been pitched to them yet.
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Re: Patent Application Costs?

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interwebopinion wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:30 pm
randomguy wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:39 am Those companies generating huge revenue tend to have enormous legal staffs to try and enforce their patent. The question is what are your odds of doing the same. It is one thing to have a patented drug. It is another to have some utility patent that is relatively easy to work around. Without knowing the exact product it is hard to say if the patent will gain you much. But if you look in the automotive/personal care industry, you can buy knock off products of just about every patented product. I am guessing the value is about zero.
This is a common misconception. If the product is worth something, you should be able to afford legal representation to bring even the big bad guys to heel. Many times a simple cease and desist letter, as opposed to a full-on lawsuit, can do the trick. Large companies are averse to bad publicity, and willful bad conduct can triple damages.

See for example (and usually a patent case would be a stronger hand than this): https://www.gibbsbruns.com/federal-cour ... ufacturer/

Also, the process of figuring out exactly what the market wants (iterating from the first version) will uncover simple but non-obvious changes that can form the basis of a very defensible patent.

The large Chinese companies that are likely the competitors (i.e. you pay them to make it, they make knocks also) have a long history of disregarding cease and desist letters and your odds of suing them are about zero. Go read the complaints of all the people who see zillions of knocks of their product on amazon and the futility they have at enforcing their legal rights.

And note your example isn't about patent infringement. it is about trademark violation. It is one thing to copy the idea that OXO Grips did in making their home goods empire. It is another things to label yours as Oxo products and try to pass them off. Also note how they went after costco and not the manufacturer of the product...

If patents were free, you should patent everything. But the time cost of them are pretty high for young companies. You need to figure out if filing one is worth it. This is very field /product specific.
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Re: Patent Application Costs?

Post by Tracker968 »

A provisional patent costs $70 to file and you don't need a lawyer to write it up and you don't need a drafter to create the drawings. It is good for 1 year at which time you can pay another $70 and refile. The idea is to buy you time to get your business up and running before you spend the money on a standard patent application.
Probably the best bet is to keep the idea as secret as you can until you are ready to launch the product. Be as successful as possible in the first year or two before someone copies you. Once that happens you will probably need to move on to your next invention.
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Re: Patent Application Costs?

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Tracker968 wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:43 pm A provisional patent costs $70 to file and you don't need a lawyer to write it up and you don't need a drafter to create the drawings. It is good for 1 year at which time you can pay another $70 and refile. The idea is to buy you time to get your business up and running before you spend the money on a standard patent application.
Probably the best bet is to keep the idea as secret as you can until you are ready to launch the product. Be as successful as possible in the first year or two before someone copies you. Once that happens you will probably need to move on to your next invention.
Good idea to write the provisional yourself, do not attempt to do the patent yourself, hire a professional.
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Re: Patent Application Costs?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

Fiiiiiiiinally got around to reading him all of these comments!

Very helpful thank you so much! He will do some market research, file a provisional patent first if it seems there is interest and then hire a lawyer for the patent application, if any.
Last edited by AnnetteLouisan on Sun Dec 12, 2021 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Patent Application Costs?

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Whatever you do, don’t call one of the services you see on TV.

I had a friend that got roped up in that and lost money as they fed him false hope.
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Re: Patent Application Costs?

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StevieG72 wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:24 pm Whatever you do, don’t call one of the services you see on TV.

I had a friend that got roped up in that and lost money as they fed him false hope.
Was not aware there were such services on TV! 😂 Will warn him, thanks!
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