How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

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CobraKai
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

LeslieSmiley wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:21 am Commute time though is a valid factor in determining the worthiness of a job, it becomes irrelevant if such job is not desirable in other aspects.

The most important factor in my opinion is the quality of the job in terms of the nature of the responsibilities, the team that you will be working with, the working environment, the prospect of future growth and etc. If those factors don’t check out, you will just be having a lousy job with an amazing commute.

You might want to do a bit more research on the company to get a fully account on what you are considering.
That is what I am thinking. I've done some research and found that the company has been around a long time. There are not nearly as many employees that there were at one time. Seems like a lot of long term employees (who were there 30-40 years) left in the past decade and some of them did not leave voluntarily.

It's a family-owned company as opposed to the large corporation I am in now. I haven't met any team members but was told that a second employee in the department left. So I originally applied for and interviewed for a different position that was filled and they reached out to me regarding this particular position since the manager figured I would be a better fit. That is the second employee to recently leave in a small department which has me wondering why.
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calmaniac
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by calmaniac »

I've never had a commute longer than 10-15 minutes my entire adult life of 40+ years.

My view is that life is too short to spend hundreds of hours/year commuting in exchange for a bigger house or yard that I don't have the time, energy, or mental health to enjoy. YMMV
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

LittleMaggieMae wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:08 am Where are you in your career, future income needs (kids? college? something else?), and your retirement plans?


The salary in either case is not lucrative but I'm in a LCOL area so current salary is adequate and allows me to reach my retirement savings goals.
LittleMaggieMae wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:08 amWhere does this job get you in 5 or 10 years? As in what is it a stepping stone to?
Honestly? It's probably a dead end job (similar to current job) unless I leverage it into another position at a different company down the line.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

Watty wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:26 am There is a third option that you did not mention which would be to move closer to your current job. With a commute like that I would have done that years ago.
It's something I have pondered on numerous occasions. Moving five minutes from current job would mean living in a dump of an apartment in a dump of a town. There are towns in between but higher living expenses (especially now).
Watty wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:26 am A fourth option would be to look to a different job using your current skills that you could be excited about even if you had to move somewhere else in the country for it.
I have considered it. Looking back, should have done that when I was younger. Difficult to walk away from a stable job when previous jobs were not. I think I've gotten too risk-averse over time.
Watty wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:26 amThat is about 20k miles a year. In addition to the cost and time having a long commute also adds to the risk that you will be hurt or killed in a car accident. It is hard to calculate but that is a non-trivial risk.
That's a good point.
Watty wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:26 amI would suspect that in your current position you are at the top of your pay grade and have little chance of getting a promotion or a raise that is more than inflation.
That thought has crossed my mind, being in the same position for so many years.
Watty wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:26 amA big question would be what your advancement potential would be at the new job.
It doesn't seem like it would be much with it being a small department and there being just one location.
Watty wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:26 amOne way to look at that is that once you come up to speed on the different skills then you would be qualified in both of them which may make you more valuable when you are looking for your next job if you have not been away from your old skill for too long.
I didn't think of it like that. I'd have to take some time to brush up on the skills I stopped using at work but that would be easier with the extra free time.
Watty wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:26 amI am retired now and but before I retired I was a software developer at a company that used the IBM iSeries which uses DB2 (AKA IBM i, IBM System i, AS/400, IBM Power System, System 38, or whatever they are calling it these days). That job market has been shrinking for literally decades and even though it is a great system IBM decided to go in a different direction in the 1990s. A lot of companies that size still have them and they work and would be expensive to replace so they keep using them. They are sort of like the commercial for the energizer bunny that keeps going and going.
Yes that is similar to the technology that this company is using.
Watty wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:26 am If the company is using an iSeries they will likely replace it sooner or later which could be why they are looking at hiring someone with different skills so that you can help with the eventual conversion.

Anyway if the job is using the iSeries(by whatever name) and you get pigeonholed in that job market then you may find that you will have a very difficult time finding some other iSeries job if you ever need to. If that is the situation then some of the people who have left that IT department may have left because they got a job opportunity on some other platform that was better for their career and that could explain some of the turnover.
Ah, that makes sense!
Watty wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:26 am A lot of people with iSeries skills are reaching retirement age so one thing to check on is that some of the people who left that company may have retired which could also explain some of the turnover. The large company that I worked at had several dozen people working on the iSeries and probably 80% of them were in their 50s or older.
Regarding the most recent departure, I was told that the employee found a better opportunity elsewhere.
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CobraKai
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

Normchad wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:47 am Never take a pay cut.

Just tell them you can’t accept their offer if it costs you money. And see how they respond. If they say “no”, that’s not a place you want to be.
Not even with the drastically reduced transportation costs and extra time?
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CobraKai
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

il0kin wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:00 am Keep looking.. small market share DBMS is a step backwards. MS SQL is the industry default but things are moving slowly towards the hosted solutions like Snowflake, Azure etc. Going backwards on tech plus bad reviews are two red flags to me. It’d be less scary if you were going to a city/county government using old tech where you knew you could stay until retirement but you’re making yourself less marketable.
Agreed. Knowing that this is a small company that has reduced its workforce in the past makes me a bit leery, I will admit.
il0kin wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:00 amLots of these jobs are going full remote. Again, keep looking!

Have you considered looking at BI development work? Pretty good pay and a little more exciting than DBA work IMO.
I am interested in that area. I need to sign up for a certification program or some type of online class since I don't really do much of this with current employer. Any recommendations?
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

quantAndHold wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:12 am The federal mileage reimbursement rate is currently $0.56/mile. That’s a good proxy for how much it costs you to drive to work. I was home sick and bored one day, and calculated how much it actually cost per mile for me to drive to work over a 10 year period, and the result was surprisingly close to what the federal mileage rate was over those years. The cost of the car was about half of it, and the ongoing expenses (gas, maintenance, insurance) was the other half. Since you’re driving approximately 22k miles per year to and from work, that’s $12k/year in car expenses alone.

Then there’s the hour plus you’ll get back every workday.

All things are not equal between jobs, and jobs are about a lot more than just the money aspect. But if all things really are equal between here two jobs, you come out pretty far ahead taking the closer job.
I took my fuel costs and doubled that to account for vehicle wear & tear, and then added tolls, but your numbers maybe more accurate as there are other costs I may be leaving out (oil changes, more frequent repairs, and the like).
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:16 am
CobraKai wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:12 am
galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:55 am
  • Can you use LinkedIn or similar to locate and reach out to one or both of the recent former-employees who worked in the IT group? If so, you may wish to contact them and see if they will provide some honest feedback about their experiences with that company.
I am not on LinkedIn. Can one do a search for someone who worked in a particular company? I'm not sure how I would be able to find the former employees otherwise since I do not know anyone that works in the company.
I am also not on LinkedIn but it appears that there is an ability to search for people by company or organization, including past employees.

https://www.dummies.com/social-media/li ... y-company/
Thanks for the link, will check it out.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by sureshoe »

CobraKai wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:39 am I know it's said never to disclose one's salary, but in this case, that would not apply?
I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying "never disclose one's salary" as a general rule or in salary negotiations?

I would say that's a true statement in that talking smack about salary to peers.

In negotiations, I think it's about timing. I would try to avoid saying "here's my salary" prior to interviews/etc. But now, I think you're in the negotiation part. Assuming you didn't say "I am looking for $90k and they offered $90k", I think it's fair to say, "Look, I make $100k (or whatever), and you're just off by couple thousand. Can you get me to my existing salary? It would enable me to say 'yes' with no further discussion, and I'd be 100% happy."

Or some flavor of that. I find that completely reasonable. As a hiring manager, I would get you there if I liked you and I had the budget. The only time I get mad is when someone tells me their number is X, I give it to them, and then they ask for more. That always makes me question the person's integrity.

It sounds like you've been upfront. You simply need to tell them your number : pay me this and I will take it. Some of this depends on the hiring manager. I want to pay someone the salary they want > I don't want to pay them under and have them immediately start looking for another job.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by sureshoe »

Normchad wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:47 am Never take a pay cut.

Just tell them you can’t accept their offer if it costs you money. And see how they respond. If they say “no”, that’s not a place you want to be.
I'm sorry, but this is just really bad career advice.

Should you seek out a pay cut? No. But, there are lot of reasons to take a paycut.

Reducing commute time is one reason. Creating upward mobility is another. Changing fields, etc. I could go through all the hypotheticals, but just really incorrect career advice. Being a slave to a salary is a good way to get locked into a bad position.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by sureshoe »

JoeRetire wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:36 am
sureshoe wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:49 am There is limited time in life. If you haven't had a job without a commute, you will be stunned at how much different and happier you are.
I've had jobs with 1 hour commute and jobs with 10 minute commute. The best job I ever had was a 45 minute commute. The worst job I ever had was the 10 minute commute.
Let's say your time is worth $40/hour. 8*40 = $320/week. That's $15k in time you're buying back.
Kinda silly to put a price on your commute time, unless you can find some way to earn $40 during that hour in the morning when you aren't commuting. Most likely that time will be spent sleeping later, or reading more of the morning paper - neither of which actually earn you $40.

There are plenty of reasons to place a value on a shorter commute if that's important to you. $40/hour isn't the way.
Why is it silly? Everyone puts a value on their time.

Do you drive or fly on vacation? If it's an 8 hour drive or $100 flight - you probably fly. If it's a $500 flight... hmm. If it's a $2000 flight, you probably drive. Just because you aren't putting a number on it explicitly, you're doing the conversion.

Do you pay someone to mow your grass? You're buying 1-2 hour of freedom a week. If it costs $40 for the yard, you've put a value on your time.

Do you change your own oil? I doubt it - since it's only $70. If it cost $500 for a simple oil change, I bet you would do it.

If you could get 2 more weeks of vacation with a reduced salary of $2000, would you? Hmm - that's putting a price on your time.

So the fact is, "putting a value on your time" is how you evaluate it. If the OP wanted, he could pick up side work at $40/hour or $70/hour - and the freed up commute time might enable that. If you have a better way, I'm all ears. The freed up time could enable the OP to mow his grass or change his oil.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

sureshoe wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:30 am
CobraKai wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:39 am I know it's said never to disclose one's salary, but in this case, that would not apply?
I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying "never disclose one's salary" as a general rule or in salary negotiations?
Both
sureshoe wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:30 amI would say that's a true statement in that talking smack about salary to peers.

In negotiations, I think it's about timing. I would try to avoid saying "here's my salary" prior to interviews/etc. But now, I think you're in the negotiation part. Assuming you didn't say "I am looking for $90k and they offered $90k", I think it's fair to say, "Look, I make $100k (or whatever), and you're just off by couple thousand. Can you get me to my existing salary? It would enable me to say 'yes' with no further discussion, and I'd be 100% happy."
That makes sense. They did throw out the first number.
sureshoe wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:30 amOr some flavor of that. I find that completely reasonable. As a hiring manager, I would get you there if I liked you and I had the budget. The only time I get mad is when someone tells me their number is X, I give it to them, and then they ask for more. That always makes me question the person's integrity.

It sounds like you've been upfront. You simply need to tell them your number : pay me this and I will take it. Some of this depends on the hiring manager. I want to pay someone the salary they want > I don't want to pay them under and have them immediately start looking for another job.
He gave me his initial number, I didn't say I would accept but that we were in a similar ballpark. He seemed okay with that. I told him I would need additional information (benefits, PTO, etc) to give him my number or range. Once I crunch the numbers and do more research on the company, if I do decide move forward, I may just go ahead and ask him to match my existing salary.
Last edited by CobraKai on Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by familythriftmd »

ScubaHogg wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:42 am Not endorsing, but here is one interesting take on the cost of commuting.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10 ... commuting/
That was pretty eye-opening when I read that.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by Harry Livermore »

... this is the question all employers will be asking as folks start to press for WFH forever...
:shock:
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by Harry Livermore »

JoeRetire wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:36 am
Kinda silly to put a price on your commute time, unless you can find some way to earn $40 during that hour in the morning when you aren't commuting. Most likely that time will be spent sleeping later, or reading more of the morning paper - neither of which actually earn you $40.
Very true. I have an old college pal who used to chide me for mowing the lawn myself, or taking my trash to the dump and saving the $50/ month the garbage man would charge. "How much do you bill yourself out at??? You would be better off paying other people to do those menial tasks!" The problem, or course, is that not every hour of my day is a billable hour...
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by btq96r »

How much of a % drop is that pay cut you're mulling over? To me, percentage matters more than the amount because it would impact how much of my salary goes to housing, investing, ect. The commute time is half financial, half mental. I always try to keep my commute short, and when I was contemplating buying a home earlier only considered being 45 min away because I knew I would have at most 2x office work days due to meetings if I wanted to exercise my companies laissez faire like policy of working from home for the rest, or even the full week when able.

I would be worried about the older equipment; like worried enough to probe that as best I can in follow-ups. Why are they on an outdated versions, what is their budget for IT upgrades, are things so badly set-up that an upgrade would create problems...you need a good lay of the land there to know what you'd be walking into.

I've seen companies that don't invest in things the CEO or CFO doesn't understand, of which all things tech usually apply if they don't understand and focus on the costs it takes to keep up. It usually ends up creating a lot of problems, and you're on tap to save them from their own shortsightedness with only so-so resources and support if the job has those problems. In a job like yours, investments in technology is as much a factor as the lighting in the office or your chair...going from good to miserable can happen fast. Older tech very well could mean you might find yourself spending time maintaining it that you thought you would have back from the short commute if you're one of the few folks that can keep everything running.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by JoeRetire »

sureshoe wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:48 am Why is it silly? Everyone puts a value on their time.
Let's pretend my time is worth $100/hour.

If I start work at 8:00 am, what is the cost to me of getting up at 6:00, getting ready, and driving one hour to work?
If I start work at 8:00 am, what is the cost to me of getting up at 6:00, getting ready, reading the newspaper for an hour, and starting to work from home?

Do you see any real difference here?
So the fact is, "putting a value on your time" is how you evaluate it. If the OP wanted, he could pick up side work at $40/hour or $70/hour - and the freed up commute time might enable that.
If someone decides to "pick up side work" for the 40 minutes saved by a shortened commute (perhaps a school crossing guard if the timing magically comes out just right), that demonstrates a real value. Otherwise, silly.

"Putting a value on your time" is one of those squishy, trite sayings we all use. It's not at all the same as "Let's say your time is worth $40/hour. 8*40 = $320/week. That's $15k in time you're buying back."
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by il0kin »

CobraKai wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:19 am
il0kin wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:00 am Keep looking.. small market share DBMS is a step backwards. MS SQL is the industry default but things are moving slowly towards the hosted solutions like Snowflake, Azure etc. Going backwards on tech plus bad reviews are two red flags to me. It’d be less scary if you were going to a city/county government using old tech where you knew you could stay until retirement but you’re making yourself less marketable.
Agreed. Knowing that this is a small company that has reduced its workforce in the past makes me a bit leery, I will admit.
il0kin wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:00 amLots of these jobs are going full remote. Again, keep looking!

Have you considered looking at BI development work? Pretty good pay and a little more exciting than DBA work IMO.
I am interested in that area. I need to sign up for a certification program or some type of online class since I don't really do much of this with current employer. Any recommendations?
I would look at a PowerBI certification through Microsoft. It sounds like you’re a DBA. If you get a PBI cert and apply to companies with BI Developer jobs, and can write SQL well, you will almost certainly get interviews and offers. The industry is struggling to fill positions because there aren’t enough people who can write SQL.

I wouldn’t settle for the company with the offer, personally.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

btq96r wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:38 pm How much of a % drop is that pay cut you're mulling over? To me, percentage matters more than the amount because it would impact how much of my salary goes to housing, investing, ect. The commute time is half financial, half mental. I always try to keep my commute short, and when I was contemplating buying a home earlier only considered being 45 min away because I knew I would have at most 2x office work days due to meetings if I wanted to exercise my companies laissez faire like policy of working from home for the rest, or even the full week when able.
If I post percentage then I might as well post the salary and I would likely get roasted with it being a low salary compared to most others I see on here, even though it's a LCOL area.
btq96r wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:38 pmI would be worried about the older equipment; like worried enough to probe that as best I can in follow-ups. Why are they on an outdated versions, what is their budget for IT upgrades, are things so badly set-up that an upgrade would create problems...you need a good lay of the land there to know what you'd be walking into.
I did see a couple of Glassdoor reviews from years ago knocking them up for their technology. Perhaps I can bring that up. Would it be out of line to ask about all of the negative reviews in general?
btq96r wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:38 pmI've seen companies that don't invest in things the CEO or CFO doesn't understand, of which all things tech usually apply if they don't understand and focus on the costs it takes to keep up. It usually ends up creating a lot of problems, and you're on tap to save them from their own shortsightedness with only so-so resources and support if the job has those problems.
Very good point. I could end up being the scapegoat if/when things don't work well.
btq96r wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:38 pm In a job like yours, investments in technology is as much a factor as the lighting in the office or your chair...going from good to miserable can happen fast. Older tech very well could mean you might find yourself spending time maintaining it that you thought you would have back from the short commute if you're one of the few folks that can keep everything running.
Interesting point. There are only a few folks in the department period. The main draw is the increase in free time I'd have. Without it, there's no point in taking the job.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

il0kin wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:41 pm
CobraKai wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:19 am
il0kin wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:00 am Keep looking.. small market share DBMS is a step backwards. MS SQL is the industry default but things are moving slowly towards the hosted solutions like Snowflake, Azure etc. Going backwards on tech plus bad reviews are two red flags to me. It’d be less scary if you were going to a city/county government using old tech where you knew you could stay until retirement but you’re making yourself less marketable.
Agreed. Knowing that this is a small company that has reduced its workforce in the past makes me a bit leery, I will admit.
il0kin wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:00 amLots of these jobs are going full remote. Again, keep looking!

Have you considered looking at BI development work? Pretty good pay and a little more exciting than DBA work IMO.
I am interested in that area. I need to sign up for a certification program or some type of online class since I don't really do much of this with current employer. Any recommendations?
I would look at a PowerBI certification through Microsoft. It sounds like you’re a DBA. If you get a PBI cert and apply to companies with BI Developer jobs, and can write SQL well, you will almost certainly get interviews and offers. The industry is struggling to fill positions because there aren’t enough people who can write SQL.

I wouldn’t settle for the company with the offer, personally.
I do have quite a bit of experience with SQL. I will check out the PowerBI certification, thanks!
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by sureshoe »

JoeRetire wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:04 pm
sureshoe wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:48 am Why is it silly? Everyone puts a value on their time.
Let's pretend my time is worth $100/hour.

If I start work at 8:00 am, what is the cost to me of getting up at 6:00, getting ready, and driving one hour to work?
If I start work at 8:00 am, what is the cost to me of getting up at 6:00, getting ready, reading the newspaper for an hour, and starting to work from home?

Do you see any real difference here?
So the fact is, "putting a value on your time" is how you evaluate it. If the OP wanted, he could pick up side work at $40/hour or $70/hour - and the freed up commute time might enable that.
If someone decides to "pick up side work" for the 40 minutes saved by a shortened commute (perhaps a school crossing guard if the timing magically comes out just right), that demonstrates a real value. Otherwise, silly.

"Putting a value on your time" is one of those squishy, trite sayings we all use. It's not at all the same as "Let's say your time is worth $40/hour. 8*40 = $320/week. That's $15k in time you're buying back."
Yes, I "see a real difference". You are treating salary and income as the end-all-be-all. It isn't. You conveniently ignored the comparable examples I gave you, but I will use you yours.

You commute to work for 45 minutes each way and make $100k, but your current employer opens an office right down the street from you. But, it's in a different tax locality which will force you to pay a 2% work-in tax, but your commute drops to under 5 minutes. Would you take the "pay cut". I would bet a large majority of people would. You've put a "value on your time", you're willing to take a $2k NET income pay cut.

Same situation, but you have to cross a toll bridge or parking garage which adds a $10/day expense. Now, you're taking a $2k tax hit and a $2500 (50 weeks *5 days *$10) commute expense. Do you still do it? I'm guessing most people who make $100k/year do - because they save 165-ish hours a year for a cost of $4500. They paying about $27 for each hour and it's a value.

Now, use that same example, but it's a higher tax rate and commuting expense - more like $5500... lots of people would do it, but maybe a few less. What about $7000? There is a point where people eat the commute rather than the expense, because they "put a value on their time."

And guess what - ALL those calculations would be different for someone making $50k vs. $250k, because they each put different values on their time.

If you had 2 job offers for 2 nearly identical jobs. 1 was a 10 minute roundtrip, 1 was a 3 hour roundtrip, but the 3 hour job was $1000 more, would you take it? No, of course not. Because - you "put a value on your time". What if it was $5k more. Probably still "no". What about $40k more. Hmmm... starts becoming an interesting conversation - because it crossed your "time's value". And I had a guy who commuted 1.5 hours each day who worked for me - so it happens.

So it isn't trite or silly or squishy just because you don't see it. It's what EVERYONE does, whether they realize it or not. But like I told the OP, because of "loss aversion", people can't see past what they're losing.
Last edited by sureshoe on Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
scrabbler1
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by scrabbler1 »

Three times in my career I took a pay cut for a shorter commute - if you count as a shorter commute a less frequent commute (i.e. fewer days). The first time, I took a 40% pay cut to reduce my commute by 80% (5 days to 1 via mostly telecommuting). After the telecommute part was rescinded a few years later (increasing my commute), I eventually took a 40% pay cut again to reduce the commute by 33% (3 days to 2). My final pay cut was 100% when I retired early, also eliminating 100% of the commute :happy
sureshoe
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by sureshoe »

CobraKai wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:11 pm He gave me his initial number, I didn't say I would accept but that we were in a similar ballpark. He seemed okay with that. I told him I would need additional information (benefits, PTO, etc) to give him my number or range. Once I crunch the numbers and do more research on the company, if I do decide move forward, I may just go ahead and ask him to match my existing salary.
I think you're on track. I do want to chime in on what everyone is saying on the tech, there is good advice in there. I oversee software engineers, and in general - I would put a premium on getting good tech (assuming you want to advance). If you want to coast, it's a different thing.

I actually was a hybrid DBA/engineer in my past life before I became an skilled down, overpaid manager type. But, I still work in SQL, and even with several years-old skills, I'm confident I could get a DBA or engineer job in a few weeks. Now the salary is a different story, just depends on how high you want to go.

You really have to figure out your goals. If it's career advancement, salary right now, future earnings, etc. It really just depends.

Good luck.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by daheld »

ScubaHogg wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:42 am Not endorsing, but here is one interesting take on the cost of commuting.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10 ... commuting/
This is completely insane.
hoofaman
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by hoofaman »

I’m suprised either of these roles are in person to begin with, what’s the reasoning?

The last few software jobs I’ve had have all been remote, and that was pre-pandemic. Everyone I know in Software is working remote.

You might want to just do a quick job search nation wide for remote only work, plenty of it out there
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

sureshoe wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:43 am I think you're on track. I do want to chime in on what everyone is saying on the tech, there is good advice in there. I oversee software engineers, and in general - I would put a premium on getting good tech (assuming you want to advance). If you want to coast, it's a different thing.
It depends on your definition of advancement. If it means getting into management and being plugged in 24/7, no thanks. If it means specializing while maintaining work/life balance, sure.

I'm mainly looking to avoid ageism and stay employed in the field until retirement.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by JupiterJones »

sureshoe wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:48 am Why is it silly? Everyone puts a value on their time.
Absolutely. It might be silly-ish to put a precise figure on it, because the value is admittedly often intangible (sometimes even priceless). But there's value there regardless.

Like other intangible things (such as risk), you can flip things around to help internalize it. So imagine that the OP already had the job they were considering, with the five-minute commute. Then imagine that the company the OP really does work for now offers the OP that job. A nice $6,000 raise, but in exchange for an eight times longer commute.

Suddenly the OP goes from 10 minutes of every day used up on a commute to an hour-and-a-half a day. From about 42 hours a year (a full work week) to 375 hours (nine work weeks, or two additional months!) Is that "worth" another six large, even ignoring the added commute costs?

Possible management/culture issues aside, it sure wouldn't be for me. I've had a very short commute for decades and it has been absolutely wonderful.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

hoofaman wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:02 am I’m suprised either of these roles are in person to begin with, what’s the reasoning?
Despite my software work, I work in an IT support group which requires occasional trips to the floor. As I explained in an earlier post, management is not receptive to remote work. Not sure about the other place but it's only 5 minutes away so I didn't ask. :)
hoofaman wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:02 am The last few software jobs I’ve had have all been remote, and that was pre-pandemic. Everyone I know in Software is working remote.

You might want to just do a quick job search nation wide for remote only work, plenty of it out there
I must be doing something wrong then. Are you talking top tier software jobs? I've always had roles inside IT departments (i.e. IT guy with software/DB skills as opposed to strictly a software dev, DBA, etc).
sureshoe
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by sureshoe »

JupiterJones wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:47 am
sureshoe wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:48 am Why is it silly? Everyone puts a value on their time.
Absolutely. It might be silly-ish to put a precise figure on it, because the value is admittedly often intangible (sometimes even priceless). But there's value there regardless.

Like other intangible things (such as risk), you can flip things around to help internalize it. So imagine that the OP already had the job they were considering, with the five-minute commute. Then imagine that the company the OP really does work for now offers the OP that job. A nice $6,000 raise, but in exchange for an eight times longer commute.

Suddenly the OP goes from 10 minutes of every day used up on a commute to an hour-and-a-half a day. From about 42 hours a year (a full work week) to 375 hours (nine work weeks, or two additional months!) Is that "worth" another six large, even ignoring the added commute costs?

Possible management/culture issues aside, it sure wouldn't be for me. I've had a very short commute for decades and it has been absolutely wonderful.
I agree - your 2nd point is exactly what I'm talking about in terms of "Loss Aversion". You have reframed the situation where I'm "losing" a short commute, but gaining $6k. Human psychology makes us not want to give up that free time, because we hate losing (our free time) more than we love gaining $6k.

Framed as the original > we hate "losing" $6k more than we like "gaining" free time.

You nailed a great loss aversion example. Exact same numbers, but the framing affects the decision. That's the illogical part of loss aversion (and we all suffer it).
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by quantAndHold »

CobraKai wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:21 am
quantAndHold wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:12 am The federal mileage reimbursement rate is currently $0.56/mile. That’s a good proxy for how much it costs you to drive to work. I was home sick and bored one day, and calculated how much it actually cost per mile for me to drive to work over a 10 year period, and the result was surprisingly close to what the federal mileage rate was over those years. The cost of the car was about half of it, and the ongoing expenses (gas, maintenance, insurance) was the other half. Since you’re driving approximately 22k miles per year to and from work, that’s $12k/year in car expenses alone.

Then there’s the hour plus you’ll get back every workday.

All things are not equal between jobs, and jobs are about a lot more than just the money aspect. But if all things really are equal between here two jobs, you come out pretty far ahead taking the closer job.
I took my fuel costs and doubled that to account for vehicle wear & tear, and then added tolls, but your numbers maybe more accurate as there are other costs I may be leaving out (oil changes, more frequent repairs, and the like).
It would be $12k per year plus tolls, then. I wasn’t accounting for tolls.

People tend to significantly underestimate how much it costs them to drive a car around.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by wfrobinette »

CobraKai wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:14 am
hi_there wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:00 am Unless you really need a couple of thousands of dollars for some reason, the compensation difference seems quite negligible.
The couple thousand dollars is negligible. The additional time is more important to me.
hi_there wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:00 amYour decision should depend on your significant time savings vs. the risk of not fitting in with the culture of the new workplace.
You nailed it.
hi_there wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:00 amI would encourage you to talk to more employees of the second company to help understand what it might be like to work there. Also, consider if your old company might rehire you if you need to return for whatever reason, as this would be a significant risk mitigating factor.
I don't know anyone that works in the company. Should I request a tour? Of course nobody is going to say anything derogitory with management around. My current company would likely re-hire me as long as I leave on good terms, although I could lose "perks" I have earned over time. The schedules at the two companies would be different enough to where I could work part-time at the second company for a time. Would it be unreasonable to ask to work part-time there for a week or two in order to test my culture fit?
I've learned over time that those reviews are pretty accurate but are highly dependent on who was in charge when these things are posted, what department the poster worked in And how many reviews exist. If you are seeing it across the board than that's a huge red flag. If it's a bunch of complaining from low level grunts in one department then I would discount that. If it's only a few reviews then I don't put much credence into it. But always remember disgruntled employees are tend to be more vocal than happy people.

The extra time was priceless when I had a 5 minute commute. DB2 is dead but It's closer to Oracle, Mysql, Postgres (redshift) than sql server will ever be.

I am hoping to get a role opened in the CLT area very soon with your skill set. hint: Charlotte peeps that have SQLserver Admin and development skills should PM me.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by Jags4186 »

If you can’t earn an income by gaining time, your time is worth $0. It certainly has sentimental value, though.
Elyria
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by Elyria »

A few questions/thoughts to ponder

If they were offering you the same or even a bit more $$, what would you do?

You could negotiate with the offer. I'm in the middle of hiring two staff and I have never had so much back-and-forth with prospectives as I am currently having. I am increasing pay, offering a portion of at-risk pay up front, and although I haven't been asked, I'd be willing to throw in an extra week of vacation (which is cheap for employers to offer).

You have to weigh the obvious lifestyle benefits of the lower stress and more time spent out of the car vs the potential job growth and opportunities.

I would not totally be swayed by Glassdoor; my company doesn't have a great rating either but I love my leadership and my job.

Finally, if you took the new job and it doesn't work out, are you pretty employable in the future? I'm going to say yes since you are in the Tech sector. Sometimes you have to weigh it all up and take the leap. Good luck!
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by JoeRetire »

sureshoe wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:32 amIt's what EVERYONE does, whether they realize it or not. But like I told the OP, because of "loss aversion", people can't see past what they're losing.
It's not at all the same as "Let's say your time is worth $40/hour. 8*40 = $320/week. That's $15k in time you're buying back."
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

wfrobinette wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:48 amI've learned over time that those reviews are pretty accurate but are highly dependent on who was in charge when these things are posted, what department the poster worked in And how many reviews exist. If you are seeing it across the board than that's a huge red flag. If it's a bunch of complaining from low level grunts in one department then I would discount that. If it's only a few reviews then I don't put much credence into it. But always remember disgruntled employees are tend to be more vocal than happy people.
Seems like most of the bad reviews are from the Marketing side and some were from members of middle management who were bashing the CEO. There was one review that even claimed most of the reviews came from that department after a shake up.

Also saw some bad reviews of some employees that were there for decades who complained about the company laying off long time (30+ year) employees. No reviews from anyone who identified as technical staff (positive or negative).
wfrobinette wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:48 am The extra time was priceless when I had a 5 minute commute. DB2 is dead but It's closer to Oracle, Mysql, Postgres (redshift) than sql server will ever be.

I am hoping to get a role opened in the CLT area very soon with your skill set. hint: Charlotte peeps that have SQLserver Admin and development skills should PM me.
I wouldn't mind learning Oracle. I took a couple of Oracle courses in college but that was 20 years ago.

The more I think about it, the more I want to get involved in data (i.e. DBA, Business Intelligence, data engineering). While I can do database-driven software development, I even prefer the database side over software development. I'd like to get away from the day-to-day general IT support issues that I often have to deal with. My current role has me spread too thin. It's like I'm doing 10 jobs in one.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

Elyria wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:01 am A few questions/thoughts to ponder

If they were offering you the same or even a bit more $$, what would you do?
The salary they offered is at the bottom of my range where I am willing to make a jump. It will require some number crunching, additional research on the company, and comparing pros and cons as to whether this would be a good move. If they can match my salary or offer me more, that would significantly increase the chance that I would accept the offer.
Elyria wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:01 amYou could negotiate with the offer. I'm in the middle of hiring two staff and I have never had so much back-and-forth with prospectives as I am currently having. I am increasing pay, offering a portion of at-risk pay up front, and although I haven't been asked, I'd be willing to throw in an extra week of vacation (which is cheap for employers to offer).
How fast are you moving? I don't know if it's me or this company, but it seems like they move slow.

I interviewed with them awhile back. It seemed to go well but I didn't hear from them for a few weeks so I followed up. The HR guy said he'd get back to me the following week. I didn't hear back for a few more weeks.

At that point, I I was told that the department had another departure and I had a phone call with the manager who told me about this new opening, which he thinks I'm a better fit for. While I didn't accept the number he gave me, I didn't say no, and I told him I needed more information about their total compensation package before I could give him an answer. He said HR would send me info on their benefits package as well as the job description. It has been a couple days and I've heard nothing, even after sending a follow up "thank you" email yesterday. I'm wondering if these delays are not a red flag.
Elyria wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:01 amYou have to weigh the obvious lifestyle benefits of the lower stress and more time spent out of the car vs the potential job growth and opportunities.

I would not totally be swayed by Glassdoor; my company doesn't have a great rating either but I love my leadership and my job.

Finally, if you took the new job and it doesn't work out, are you pretty employable in the future? I'm going to say yes since you are in the Tech sector. Sometimes you have to weigh it all up and take the leap. Good luck!
I would say that I am although I am not in the best area for tech jobs.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by btq96r »

CobraKai wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:32 amIf I post percentage then I might as well post the salary and I would likely get roasted with it being a low salary compared to most others I see on here, even though it's a LCOL area.

I did see a couple of Glassdoor reviews from years ago knocking them up for their technology. Perhaps I can bring that up. Would it be out of line to ask about all of the negative reviews in general?

Very good point. I could end up being the scapegoat if/when things don't work well.

Interesting point. There are only a few folks in the department period. The main draw is the increase in free time I'd have. Without it, there's no point in taking the job.
Chopped up to remove my other post being quoted.

With regards to your salary...don't fret too much. I make less than $100k, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I feel I'm doing well for my qualifications and experience, and I have a lot of non-comp perks like no set hours, a parking spot, private office to myself, complete flexibility to work from home on days I don't have meetings. Salary is a number to put a value on your labor, and not the be all end all. Don't need you to post the numbers, just look at percentages as much as totals when mulling the difference.

I brought up the old tech because a DBA I know left because of it. It just became too much, and he was being stressed way too much making what should be routine things happen. The frustrating days and late nights just got to him. It wasn't one thing, it was just a slow grind down.

I wouldn't try to talk about the Glassdoor reviews, but I would want to ask if you can talk to some of the folks you'd be working with. Don't have to pry too much, but there should be enough tech speak to let you get some details. I'd very much like to find out what downtime looks like in terms of frequency and duration. That was a problem in our organization on the network side until a manager left and one of our engineers was unleashed to fix things. I know sort of how much of a pain in the ass database downtime were from the situation described above.
Elyria
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by Elyria »

CobraKai wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:36 am
Elyria wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:01 am A few questions/thoughts to ponder

If they were offering you the same or even a bit more $$, what would you do?
The salary they offered is at the bottom of my range where I am willing to make a jump. It will require some number crunching, additional research on the company, and comparing pros and cons as to whether this would be a good move. If they can match my salary or offer me more, that would significantly increase the chance that I would accept the offer.
Elyria wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:01 amYou could negotiate with the offer. I'm in the middle of hiring two staff and I have never had so much back-and-forth with prospectives as I am currently having. I am increasing pay, offering a portion of at-risk pay up front, and although I haven't been asked, I'd be willing to throw in an extra week of vacation (which is cheap for employers to offer).
How fast are you moving? I don't know if it's me or this company, but it seems like they move slow.

I interviewed with them awhile back. It seemed to go well but I didn't hear from them for a few weeks so I followed up. The HR guy said he'd get back to me the following week. I didn't hear back for a few more weeks.

At that point, I I was told that the department had another departure and I had a phone call with the manager who told me about this new opening, which he thinks I'm a better fit for. While I didn't accept the number he gave me, I didn't say no, and I told him I needed more information about their total compensation package before I could give him an answer. He said HR would send me info on their benefits package as well as the job description. It has been a couple days and I've heard nothing, even after sending a follow up "thank you" email yesterday. I'm wondering if these delays are not a red flag.
Elyria wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:01 amYou have to weigh the obvious lifestyle benefits of the lower stress and more time spent out of the car vs the potential job growth and opportunities.

I would not totally be swayed by Glassdoor; my company doesn't have a great rating either but I love my leadership and my job.

Finally, if you took the new job and it doesn't work out, are you pretty employable in the future? I'm going to say yes since you are in the Tech sector. Sometimes you have to weigh it all up and take the leap. Good luck!
I would say that I am although I am not in the best area for tech jobs.

We're moving fast because it's a high-profile high risk job that we can't afford to leave unfilled. I think in general, the speed is driven by the hiring manager and his/her eagerness to fill the role. I think it's a positive that they came back to you with a new job; it says to me you made a positive impression.

I would suggest being honest and explaining that this would be a cut in pay. As a hiring manager I don't want my employees coming in with that chip on their shoulder and if it was not a huge amount I would want to make them whole. Your new company doesn't have to know how much you value the shorter commute. But I would play ball on the salary and try to get them to come up. If they won't, that might tell you something.

With regard to the HR department not responding, that's pretty typical. I think a lot of people are using covid as an excuse for not being as efficient. That drives me nuts.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by harrychan »

I've done the opposite where I got a major pay increase for a longer commute. I got a 45% raise in turn for a 40 miles 50 min commute but it was with a large corporation. Similarly, I was at the same company for 14 years being full time WFH which stumped my growth as HQ was in the UK. During the interviews, the hiring manager shied away from any indication of office work flexibility but after 3-4 months, I realized I could determine where I work from at a sr manager. I now work full time from home as I am in another group but head to the on site on occasion.

I think your best option would be to look beyond for full time remote positions. As a DBA, you should be able to find something. It may prolong your job search but you will find one.

If you really can't stand the commute, I think the job offer is something you can consider but I would be prepared to stay at least 8-10 months. I don't think the situation is as bad and you may be a critical component to convert them to a more modern system.
This is not legal or certified financial advice but you know that already.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by sureshoe »

JoeRetire wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:06 am
sureshoe wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:32 amIt's what EVERYONE does, whether they realize it or not. But like I told the OP, because of "loss aversion", people can't see past what they're losing.
It's not at all the same as "Let's say your time is worth $40/hour. 8*40 = $320/week. That's $15k in time you're buying back."
You just keep saying "no it isn't" and ignoring very clear examples of where it clearly is the same. If your employer announced you could work 1 day less a week in exchange for a $1kyear paycut, would you take it. Lots of people would. If it was 4 days a week for $5k less... maybe. For $15k, maybe that's the break even where you say "no". I literally have had people ask me this before.

Unpaid vacation is another example. You are literally buying your time back. If you get $1k less income, that's a price. $10k is another.

So if we disagree fine, but I've showed you multiple cases where it literally is that.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by chipperd »

daheld wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:54 am
ScubaHogg wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:42 am Not endorsing, but here is one interesting take on the cost of commuting.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10 ... commuting/
This is completely insane.
Insanely interesting
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by johnny »

Jags4186 wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:59 am Negotiate the new employment offer. Then leverage that offer for a WFH arrangement and a raise with current employer.

Boom problems solved.
+1

And the Glassdoor rating is scary low. I worked for a company that was in the 2.5 range once. Chaos.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

btq96r wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:00 pm Chopped up to remove my other post being quoted.

With regards to your salary...don't fret too much. I make less than $100k, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I feel I'm doing well for my qualifications and experience, and I have a lot of non-comp perks like no set hours, a parking spot, private office to myself, complete flexibility to work from home on days I don't have meetings. Salary is a number to put a value on your labor, and not the be all end all. Don't need you to post the numbers, just look at percentages as much as totals when mulling the difference.

I brought up the old tech because a DBA I know left because of it. It just became too much, and he was being stressed way too much making what should be routine things happen. The frustrating days and late nights just got to him. It wasn't one thing, it was just a slow grind down.
I know what you mean as I have been in similar situations in the past. A previous small company I worked for had a coax network that always went down). It was the first job in my tech career and I was a nervous wreck.
btq96r wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:00 pmI wouldn't try to talk about the Glassdoor reviews, but I would want to ask if you can talk to some of the folks you'd be working with. Don't have to pry too much, but there should be enough tech speak to let you get some details. I'd very much like to find out what downtime looks like in terms of frequency and duration. That was a problem in our organization on the network side until a manager left and one of our engineers was unleashed to fix things. I know sort of how much of a pain in the ass database downtime were from the situation described above.
Good idea. Between that and a tour (and former employees if I can find any), that should give me a good idea of what the place is like.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

Elyria wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:56 pm We're moving fast because it's a high-profile high risk job that we can't afford to leave unfilled. I think in general, the speed is driven by the hiring manager and his/her eagerness to fill the role. I think it's a positive that they came back to you with a new job; it says to me you made a positive impression.

I would suggest being honest and explaining that this would be a cut in pay. As a hiring manager I don't want my employees coming in with that chip on their shoulder and if it was not a huge amount I would want to make them whole.
Good point. He could very well make that assumption since I did ask him right away if there was any flexibility to increase that at all.
Elyria wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:56 pmYour new company doesn't have to know how much you value the shorter commute.
That is true.
Elyria wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:56 pmBut I would play ball on the salary and try to get them to come up. If they won't, that might tell you something.

With regard to the HR department not responding, that's pretty typical. I think a lot of people are using covid as an excuse for not being as efficient. That drives me nuts.
It's worth a shot.
Last edited by CobraKai on Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

harrychan wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:59 pm I've done the opposite where I got a major pay increase for a longer commute. I got a 45% raise in turn for a 40 miles 50 min commute but it was with a large corporation. Similarly, I was at the same company for 14 years being full time WFH which stumped my growth as HQ was in the UK. During the interviews, the hiring manager shied away from any indication of office work flexibility but after 3-4 months, I realized I could determine where I work from at a sr manager. I now work full time from home as I am in another group but head to the on site on occasion.

I think your best option would be to look beyond for full time remote positions. As a DBA, you should be able to find something. It may prolong your job search but you will find one.
I've had a few offers in the area over the past couple of years but there's always some catch or deal breaker. I may as well go after remote positions (or else consider moving) if this offer falls through. Figure it will take some time but I've already spent enough time finding something within a more reasonable commuting distance.
harrychan wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:59 pmIf you really can't stand the commute, I think the job offer is something you can consider but I would be prepared to stay at least 8-10 months. I don't think the situation is as bad and you may be a critical component to convert them to a more modern system.
I was thinking that if I took the job then that could free up some time to study for a new cert. I would plan on staying a year or two. Who knows...could be longer but I need to stop being so risk averse. I'm more risk averse now than I was when I was beginning my career.
Last edited by CobraKai on Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JoeRetire
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by JoeRetire »

sureshoe wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:29 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:06 am
sureshoe wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:32 amIt's what EVERYONE does, whether they realize it or not. But like I told the OP, because of "loss aversion", people can't see past what they're losing.
It's not at all the same as "Let's say your time is worth $40/hour. 8*40 = $320/week. That's $15k in time you're buying back."
You just keep saying "no it isn't" and ignoring very clear examples of where it clearly is the same. If your employer announced you could work 1 day less a week in exchange for a $1kyear paycut, would you take it. Lots of people would. If it was 4 days a week for $5k less... maybe. For $15k, maybe that's the break even where you say "no". I literally have had people ask me this before.

Unpaid vacation is another example. You are literally buying your time back. If you get $1k less income, that's a price. $10k is another.

So if we disagree fine, but I've showed you multiple cases where it literally is that.
Unpaid vacation is the same as a shorter commute? Okay.
(shrug)
This isn't just my wallet. It's an organizer, a memory and an old friend.
namajones
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by namajones »

sureshoe wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:37 am
Normchad wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:47 am Never take a pay cut.

Just tell them you can’t accept their offer if it costs you money. And see how they respond. If they say “no”, that’s not a place you want to be.
I'm sorry, but this is just really bad career advice.

Should you seek out a pay cut? No. But, there are lot of reasons to take a paycut.

Reducing commute time is one reason. Creating upward mobility is another. Changing fields, etc. I could go through all the hypotheticals, but just really incorrect career advice. Being a slave to a salary is a good way to get locked into a bad position.
I actually envy people whose life choices are so simple as "take the one that pays more." Mine have not been. In fact, I was happiest in my career when I was making about a third of what I do now. That doesn't mean that lower pay and happiness are correlated, but what it taught me was that more money did not compensate for less happiness.
daheld
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by daheld »

chipperd wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:22 pm
daheld wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:54 am
ScubaHogg wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:42 am Not endorsing, but here is one interesting take on the cost of commuting.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10 ... commuting/
This is completely insane.
Insanely interesting
Basically none of that article is applicable to the millions of us who don't live within a mile or two of our workplace. Or who have kids who need to be dropped off at daycare.

"Just buy a bike and ride to work!" seems like a good idea, except that it's just not feasible for most people. Is buying a car and putting gas in it and driving it to work wasteful? I guess. So is health insurance if you never get sick, but we still pay for it and hope we don't need it.
sureshoe
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by sureshoe »

namajones wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:24 am
sureshoe wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:37 am
Normchad wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:47 am Never take a pay cut.

Just tell them you can’t accept their offer if it costs you money. And see how they respond. If they say “no”, that’s not a place you want to be.
I'm sorry, but this is just really bad career advice.

Should you seek out a pay cut? No. But, there are lot of reasons to take a paycut.

Reducing commute time is one reason. Creating upward mobility is another. Changing fields, etc. I could go through all the hypotheticals, but just really incorrect career advice. Being a slave to a salary is a good way to get locked into a bad position.
I actually envy people whose life choices are so simple as "take the one that pays more." Mine have not been. In fact, I was happiest in my career when I was making about a third of what I do now. That doesn't mean that lower pay and happiness are correlated, but what it taught me was that more money did not compensate for less happiness.
You're spot on, and it's always a tough decision. My wife and I are literally going through it right now. We could make more money in a different state, and instead my wife is taking a severance - so she's going to reset her career, possibly taking a 10-30% paycut.

But, it has been shown that once you reach a certain income level, more money does not create more happiness. Once you have all the basics covered along some fluff, going from $100k to $200k doesn't actually increase happiness on average. That's why when someone tells me they can take a $6k paycut to reduce their commute - assuming other things equal, take the paycut. You'll be happier.

Cheers and good life to you :)
sureshoe
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Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:26 pm

Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by sureshoe »

JoeRetire wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:44 am
sureshoe wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:29 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:06 am
sureshoe wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:32 amIt's what EVERYONE does, whether they realize it or not. But like I told the OP, because of "loss aversion", people can't see past what they're losing.
It's not at all the same as "Let's say your time is worth $40/hour. 8*40 = $320/week. That's $15k in time you're buying back."
You just keep saying "no it isn't" and ignoring very clear examples of where it clearly is the same. If your employer announced you could work 1 day less a week in exchange for a $1kyear paycut, would you take it. Lots of people would. If it was 4 days a week for $5k less... maybe. For $15k, maybe that's the break even where you say "no". I literally have had people ask me this before.

Unpaid vacation is another example. You are literally buying your time back. If you get $1k less income, that's a price. $10k is another.

So if we disagree fine, but I've showed you multiple cases where it literally is that.
Unpaid vacation is the same as a shorter commute? Okay.
(shrug)
Yes. Unpaid vacation is the same as a shorter commute even though you might use it for something different.

If I want a full week off and can take it unpaid, I have to put a value on it. Is that trip to Oregon to go hiking worth $1k to me? $2k? $5k?

Same is true for a shorter commute. Let's say I live near hiking hills or like working out. A shorter commute of 90 minutes frees up time every day to do that. I have to put a price on it. How much is a daily hike worth to me? $20/day? $40/day? $100/day. I know people who have literally relocated to Oregon and taken less money JUST to be by the trails. They are buying back their time for a hobby - freed up by less commuting.
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