How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

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wfrobinette
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by wfrobinette »

CobraKai wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:28 am
wfrobinette wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:48 amI've learned over time that those reviews are pretty accurate but are highly dependent on who was in charge when these things are posted, what department the poster worked in And how many reviews exist. If you are seeing it across the board than that's a huge red flag. If it's a bunch of complaining from low level grunts in one department then I would discount that. If it's only a few reviews then I don't put much credence into it. But always remember disgruntled employees are tend to be more vocal than happy people.
Seems like most of the bad reviews are from the Marketing side and some were from members of middle management who were bashing the CEO. There was one review that even claimed most of the reviews came from that department after a shake up.

Also saw some bad reviews of some employees that were there for decades who complained about the company laying off long time (30+ year) employees. No reviews from anyone who identified as technical staff (positive or negative).
wfrobinette wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:48 am The extra time was priceless when I had a 5 minute commute. DB2 is dead but It's closer to Oracle, Mysql, Postgres (redshift) than sql server will ever be.

I am hoping to get a role opened in the CLT area very soon with your skill set. hint: Charlotte peeps that have SQLserver Admin and development skills should PM me.
I wouldn't mind learning Oracle. I took a couple of Oracle courses in college but that was 20 years ago.

The more I think about it, the more I want to get involved in data (i.e. DBA, Business Intelligence, data engineering). While I can do database-driven software development, I even prefer the database side over software development. I'd like to get away from the day-to-day general IT support issues that I often have to deal with. My current role has me spread too thin. It's like I'm doing 10 jobs in one.
Data Engineering is so hot right now.
namajones
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by namajones »

sureshoe wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:25 am
You're spot on, and it's always a tough decision. My wife and I are literally going through it right now. We could make more money in a different state, and instead my wife is taking a severance - so she's going to reset her career, possibly taking a 10-30% paycut.

But, it has been shown that once you reach a certain income level, more money does not create more happiness. Once you have all the basics covered along some fluff, going from $100k to $200k doesn't actually increase happiness on average. That's why when someone tells me they can take a $6k paycut to reduce their commute - assuming other things equal, take the paycut. You'll be happier.

Cheers and good life to you :)
Longer commute = more time in the car, obviously. Unless you love time in a car, then that lowers your quality of life. How do you put a value/dollar figure on that? It's subjective but probably not insubstantial.

More time in car also equals more time in a dangerous environment = more opportunity to get into car accidents = greater chance of being injured or dying in a car accident. How do you put a value/dollar figure on that?

Every situation is different, but if I had my needs met at $60,000 in a job that required no commute, I would not consider a job with a commute unless it paid, oh, at least a third more. Even then, it would depend on a lot of factors, including how long the commute was. Even double the pay with a commute would not be a slam dunk easy call.
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CobraKai
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

The official offer was made. They stood by the original salary. As stated above, it is 6k less salary than current position. However, it is pretty much a wash, the decreased salary vs. current commuting costs.

Pros
------
Gain of approximately 80 minutes commute time per day (320 hours per year)

More specialized position, not having to be a jack of all trades or involved in level one support (which current position includes)

No on-call or after hours support

Cons
-------
I would be losing TWO weeks (80 hours) PTO time the first year, 1 week less the following year, I would likely have to stay five years to match vacation time (although will need more clarification to know for sure)

Health Insurance costs $200 more per month

Benefits do not kick in for 90 days. Is that normal? It's been a long time since I've changed jobs. I would hate to have to purchase my own policy for three months. Would I be eligible for COBRA?

7am start time. A bit early for my liking but not too bad considering the lack of commute

-------------------------

It's a much smaller company than where I'm at now (just over 100 employees vs tens of thousands). That may be good in some ways, not as good in other ways.

He would like an answer within a couple days. No luck on finding former employees in the department but will do some more digging. Seems that the benefits are a step down as well as start time, but I do like the idea of cutting the commute and not having to deal with being "on call".
Last edited by CobraKai on Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
namajones
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by namajones »

CobraKai wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:55 am The official offer was made. They stood by the original salary. As stated above, it is 6k less salary than current position. However, it is pretty much a wash, the decreased salary vs. current commuting costs.

Pros
------
Gain of approximately 80 minutes commute time per day (320 hours per year)

More specialized position, not having to be a jack of all trades or involved in level one support (which current position includes)

No on-call or after hours support

Cons
-------
I would be losing TWO weeks (80 hours) PTO time the first year, 1 week less the following year, I would likely have to stay five years to match vacation time (although will need more clarification to know for sure)

Health Insurance costs $70 more per month

Benefits do not kick in for 90 days. Is that normal? It's been a long time since I've changed jobs. I would hate to have to purchase my own policy for three months. Would I be eligible for COBRA?

7am start time. A bit early for my liking but not too bad considering the lack of commute

-------------------------

He would like an answer within a couple days. No luck on finding former employees in the department but will do some more digging. Seems that the benefits are a step down as well as start time, but I do like the idea of cutting the commute and not having to deal with being "on call".
Loss of PTO is huge. Tough call. I don't like your current commute, but I also don't like the terms of the new gig.

Maybe Plan C. Look for a different job that's also closer?

Find out whether vacation time is negotiable. It often is. If it is, say yes on the condition that you carry your current vacation time.
sureshoe
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by sureshoe »

CobraKai wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:55 am The official offer was made. They stood by the original salary. As stated above, it is 6k less salary than current position. However, it is pretty much a wash, the decreased salary vs. current commuting costs.

Pros
------
Gain of approximately 80 minutes commute time per day (320 hours per year)

More specialized position, not having to be a jack of all trades or involved in level one support (which current position includes)

No on-call or after hours support

Cons
-------
I would be losing TWO weeks (80 hours) PTO time the first year, 1 week less the following year, I would likely have to stay five years to match vacation time (although will need more clarification to know for sure)

Health Insurance costs $70 more per month

Benefits do not kick in for 90 days. Is that normal? It's been a long time since I've changed jobs. I would hate to have to purchase my own policy for three months. Would I be eligible for COBRA?

7am start time. A bit early for my liking but not too bad considering the lack of commute

-------------------------

He would like an answer within a couple days. No luck on finding former employees in the department but will do some more digging. Seems that the benefits are a step down as well as start time, but I do like the idea of cutting the commute and not having to deal with being "on call".
Going beyond the "would you take a pay cut to commute" conversation, this just doesn't feel like the right place on the limited stuff I've seen. They feel a bit skimpy. Higher insurance costs, no negotiation on vacation - those are red flags to me of a company operating on shoestrings with an old school mentality. I don't think you shared your salary, but let's say you make $150k in total comp - 2 weeks is in the range of $6k. The loss of PTO and hard 7am start time also screams to me a company that watches the clock - do you want that level of restriction? Not sure your current flexibility. Also, if someone told me that I was $6k away from making them happy, I'd find a way to match. But if they aren't able/willing, it also tells me "bureaucracy" and short sightedness. Again, being very judgmental on limited info.

Anyway - good luck on whatever you choose. My opinion is you need to start looking on ways to eliminate your commute, but this isn't the right offer.
Topic Author
CobraKai
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

namajones wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:01 am Loss of PTO is huge. Tough call. I don't like your current commute, but I also don't like the terms of the new gig.
There are some definite trade-offs here.
namajones wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:01 amMaybe Plan C. Look for a different job that's also closer?
Sure but this will likely take some time. Similar opportunities closer to home are few and far between.
namajones wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:01 amFind out whether vacation time is negotiable. It often is. If it is, say yes on the condition that you carry your current vacation time.
It's worth a shot. Looking at some of the salaries on Indeed, I don't see them budging much (if at all) on the salary but perhaps they would be willing to budge on the vacation time.
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CobraKai
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

sureshoe wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:33 am Going beyond the "would you take a pay cut to commute" conversation, this just doesn't feel like the right place on the limited stuff I've seen. They feel a bit skimpy. Higher insurance costs, no negotiation on vacation - those are red flags to me of a company operating on shoestrings with an old school mentality.
I'm not sure if they are willing to negotiate on vacation but the "old school mentality" is the impression I have gotten as well.
sureshoe wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:33 amI don't think you shared your salary, but let's say you make $150k in total comp - 2 weeks is in the range of $6k. The loss of PTO and hard 7am start time also screams to me a company that watches the clock - do you want that level of restriction? Not sure your current flexibility.
At my current place, if I come in a bit late or need to take a few hours for an appointment or whatever, it's no big deal. There is no clocking in or out. I have worked at a place that watched the clock (at a previous job). They required clocking in and out when entering work, going to lunch, etc. Even requesting to leave a few hours early was like pulling teeth as I think they were afraid I was interviewing elsewhere.
sureshoe wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:33 amAlso, if someone told me that I was $6k away from making them happy, I'd find a way to match. But if they aren't able/willing, it also tells me "bureaucracy" and short sightedness. Again, being very judgmental on limited info.

Anyway - good luck on whatever you choose. My opinion is you need to start looking on ways to eliminate your commute, but this isn't the right offer.
Perhaps I ask them to match vacation and salary, and put the ball in their court. If there is no willingness on their end to budge then move on.
brianH
Posts: 666
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by brianH »

sureshoe wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:33 am The loss of PTO and hard 7am start time also screams to me a company that watches the clock - do you want that level of restriction? Not sure your current flexibility. Also, if someone told me that I was $6k away from making them happy, I'd find a way to match. But if they aren't able/willing, it also tells me "bureaucracy" and short sightedness. Again, being very judgmental on limited info.

Anyway - good luck on whatever you choose. My opinion is you need to start looking on ways to eliminate your commute, but this isn't the right offer.
This is all excellent advice, and it matches my opinions.

Do you get out at 3PM (or 3:30 with lunch) since you start at 7AM sharp? I'd be concerned that there's an implicit assumption that everyone works closer to a 'normal' end time (5PM) and winds up giving the company an extra 25% of their time for free.
Topic Author
CobraKai
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

brianH wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:51 pm
sureshoe wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:33 am The loss of PTO and hard 7am start time also screams to me a company that watches the clock - do you want that level of restriction? Not sure your current flexibility. Also, if someone told me that I was $6k away from making them happy, I'd find a way to match. But if they aren't able/willing, it also tells me "bureaucracy" and short sightedness. Again, being very judgmental on limited info.

Anyway - good luck on whatever you choose. My opinion is you need to start looking on ways to eliminate your commute, but this isn't the right offer.
This is all excellent advice, and it matches my opinions.

Do you get out at 3PM (or 3:30 with lunch) since you start at 7AM sharp? I'd be concerned that there's an implicit assumption that everyone works closer to a 'normal' end time (5PM) and winds up giving the company an extra 25% of their time for free.
I would get out at 3:30 as production ends at that time.
sureshoe
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by sureshoe »

CobraKai wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:42 am Perhaps I ask them to match vacation and salary, and put the ball in their court. If there is no willingness on their end to budge then move on.
Just playing sounding board - If you counter, and they say "yes" - will you be happy there? If so, then go - get the $6k, PTO, etc. If you still would be hesitant, don't waste people's time. But putting the ball in their court is an option, if you're serious.
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CobraKai
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

sureshoe wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:43 pm
CobraKai wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:42 am Perhaps I ask them to match vacation and salary, and put the ball in their court. If there is no willingness on their end to budge then move on.
Just playing sounding board - If you counter, and they say "yes" - will you be happy there? If so, then go - get the $6k, PTO, etc. If you still would be hesitant, don't waste people's time. But putting the ball in their court is an option, if you're serious.
Would I be happy there? That is a good question and a question I would not be able to answer until my first or second week on the job.

Just realized that my health insurance numbers are off. I would be paying $200 MORE per month for a higher deductible plan, plus it would not kick in until after the 90 day "probation period".

Taking salary, higher insurance costs, decreased PTO, time saved, and reduced commuting costs into consideration, I am looking at a 13% increase in total compensation. While dropping the commute would be big, I don't think I could justify jumping with the current package they are offering. As much as I would love to drop the commute, there is opportunity cost.

If they match my salary AND paid time off, that would be a 30% increase in compensation. That could possibly be enough to justify the risk of jumping ship.
KlangFool
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by KlangFool »

CobraKai wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:27 pm
If they match my salary AND paid time off, that would be a 30% increase in compensation. That could possibly be enough to justify the risk of jumping ship.
CobraKai,

That is not good enough.

What is the NUMBER that you would accept with ZERO DOUBT?

Why are you AFRAID of asking what you really want?

You cannot lose what you do not have NOW.

The Principle of Least Regret

Name a price that

A) If they say yes, you would be happy (ZERO DOUBT) to accept

B) If they say no, you would be happy to reject them

The worst kind of decision is to name a price that even if they say yes, you would not be happy to accept it. You are GUARANTEED to LOSE.

KlangFool
30% VWENX | 16% VFWAX/VTIAX | 14.5% VTSAX | 19.5% VBTLX | 10% VSIAX/VTMSX/VSMAX | 10% VSIGX| 30% Wellington 50% 3-funds 20% Mini-Larry
Topic Author
CobraKai
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

KlangFool wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:43 pm CobraKai,

That is not good enough.

What is the NUMBER that you would accept with ZERO DOUBT?

Why are you AFRAID of asking what you really want?
Honestly? Fear of the unknown. It is not all about the money but that number would need to compensate for the risk of jumping ship.

Are job titles negotiable? The job title (which is different from the job I originally applied for) is rather generic.
KlangFool wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:43 pm You cannot lose what you do not have NOW.

The Principle of Least Regret

Name a price that

A) If they say yes, you would be happy (ZERO DOUBT) to accept

B) If they say no, you would be happy to reject them

The worst kind of decision is to name a price that even if they say yes, you would not be happy to accept it. You are GUARANTEED to LOSE.

KlangFool
Makes sense!
Afty
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by Afty »

FWIW when I recently switched jobs, I used some scripts from https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/s ... on-script/ to help me formulate and communicate my counteroffer and prepare responses for their responses. I found it very helpful and was able to negotiate a solid increase in total compensation from their initial offer.

If I were to boil down the advice from that site into a few bullets, I would say:
  • Consider the strength of your negotiating position when formulating your counteroffer. If you are currently unemployed and really need this job ASAP, you cannot be very aggressive. But if you're currently employed and this other company is trying to poach you, and they really need someone with your skills in particular, you can be more aggressive.
  • In your counter offer, make a strong case why you're an especially good fit for them and therefore why they should come up on their offer. E.g. "I have 10 years of experience at BigCorp doing this exact thing, so I will hit the ground running at SmallCorp and bring immediate impact." Then make your request.
  • Prepare in advance your response to their counteroffers. E.g. if they come up to $1.2X, I'll accept immediately. If they come up to $1.1X, I'll counter with $1.15X and an additional week of vacation. If they counter with $1.0X I'll reject them outright. Doing this in advance is similar to having a written IPS. It keeps you from making mistakes in the heat of the moment.
    KlangFool
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by KlangFool »

    CobraKai wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:13 pm
    KlangFool wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:43 pm CobraKai,

    That is not good enough.

    What is the NUMBER that you would accept with ZERO DOUBT?

    Why are you AFRAID of asking what you really want?
    Honestly? Fear of the unknown. It is not all about the money but that number would need to compensate for the risk of jumping ship.

    Are job titles negotiable? The job title (which is different from the job I originally applied for) is rather generic.
    KlangFool wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:43 pm You cannot lose what you do not have NOW.

    The Principle of Least Regret

    Name a price that

    A) If they say yes, you would be happy (ZERO DOUBT) to accept

    B) If they say no, you would be happy to reject them

    The worst kind of decision is to name a price that even if they say yes, you would not be happy to accept it. You are GUARANTEED to LOSE.

    KlangFool
    Makes sense!
    CobraKai,

    <<Are job titles negotiable?>>

    Why not? You do not need a job. They need to make the offer attractive enough for you to consider.

    KlangFool
    30% VWENX | 16% VFWAX/VTIAX | 14.5% VTSAX | 19.5% VBTLX | 10% VSIAX/VTMSX/VSMAX | 10% VSIGX| 30% Wellington 50% 3-funds 20% Mini-Larry
    Topic Author
    CobraKai
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by CobraKai »

    Afty wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:16 pm FWIW when I recently switched jobs, I used some scripts from https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/s ... on-script/ to help me formulate and communicate my counteroffer and prepare responses for their responses. I found it very helpful and was able to negotiate a solid increase in total compensation from their initial offer.
    Thanks for the link!
    So it seems that it is better to give them a higher number (rather than your rock bottom counter offer) even if they will likely not meet it.
    Afty wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:16 pmIf I were to boil down the advice from that site into a few bullets, I would say:
    • Consider the strength of your negotiating position when formulating your counteroffer. If you are currently unemployed and really need this job ASAP, you cannot be very aggressive. But if you're currently employed and this other company is trying to poach you, and they really need someone with your skills in particular, you can be more aggressive.
    • In your counter offer, make a strong case why you're an especially good fit for them and therefore why they should come up on their offer. E.g. "I have 10 years of experience at BigCorp doing this exact thing, so I will hit the ground running at SmallCorp and bring immediate impact." Then make your request.
    I am currently employed and able to be more aggressive.
    Afty wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:16 pm[*] Prepare in advance your response to their counteroffers. E.g. if they come up to $1.2X, I'll accept immediately. If they come up to $1.1X, I'll counter with $1.15X and an additional week of vacation. If they counter with $1.0X I'll reject them outright. Doing this in advance is similar to having a written IPS. It keeps you from making mistakes in the heat of the moment.
    Great idea!

    It is difficult to quantify some of the factors involved and assign a number to them. That is what I am having the most difficulty with. Not a fan of the 7am start, for example, but this doesn't seem like something they will budge on.

    I can't see myself accepting their current offer. With everything taken into consideration, it is less than a 10% compensation increase. Debating whether to go for 20 or 25% of an increase since current job is not all that bad minus the commute, all things taken into consideration.
    Topic Author
    CobraKai
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by CobraKai »

    KlangFool wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:30 pm CobraKai,

    <<Are job titles negotiable?>>

    Why not? You do not need a job. They need to make the offer attractive enough for you to consider.

    KlangFool
    True. I guess it wouldn't hurt to ask. I just don't want to come across as cocky or arrogant.
    chipperd
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by chipperd »

    daheld wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:19 am
    chipperd wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:22 pm
    daheld wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:54 am
    ScubaHogg wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:42 am Not endorsing, but here is one interesting take on the cost of commuting.

    https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10 ... commuting/
    This is completely insane.
    Insanely interesting
    Basically none of that article is applicable to the millions of us who don't live within a mile or two of our workplace. Or who have kids who need to be dropped off at daycare.

    "Just buy a bike and ride to work!" seems like a good idea, except that it's just not feasible for most people. Is buying a car and putting gas in it and driving it to work wasteful? I guess. So is health insurance if you never get sick, but we still pay for it and hope we don't need it.
    The article is applicable to everyone who works, as it points out what's possible should workers have options and/or retain an open and flexible mindset.
    The article provides useful information.
    If what's in the article isn't possible for you, you are rigid in your mindset, or maybe just uninterested, then just move on.
    "A portfolio is like a bar of soap, the more it's handled, the less there is." Dr. William Bernstein
    Mr-et-Mrs-R
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by Mr-et-Mrs-R »

    A few things stood out to me as I read this thread:
    • Find out what their road map is with DB2; are they planning on moving away from this technology stack to something else, or are they going to stay with it?
      -- I had a job where the employer begged me to learn Lotus Notes development, I did my research and saw that it was a career dead end. We parted ways about a year later.
    • Are there things in this new job that you do want to learn?
    • How is the manager of the team you'll be reporting to at:
      • Resolving / removing blockers from getting the job done?
      • Encouraging learning, innovation, and keeping the team happy?
      • As few other thoughts that I know I'm missing (still on first cup of joe).
    • Bonus / Pay / Total Package (Stock (grants, RSUs, ESPP), 401(k), medical, intangibles).
    To the initial question; no it is not reasonable to take a pay cut for a shorter commute. Ever. Don't sell yourself short.
    Also, personally, I would never live more than 30 minutes away from my office, using public transportation.
    Advantages are many, chiefly I'm not driving and it's a hard stop when my bus comes.
    sureshoe
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by sureshoe »

    KlangFool wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:43 pm The worst kind of decision is to name a price that even if they say yes, you would not be happy to accept it. You are GUARANTEED to LOSE.
    This is really my point in asking "would you be happy there" that Klangfool is repeating in more direct language.

    If you aren't excited and have what you want, it's a losing proposition. And, asking for things that don't "get you to yes" is just wasting everyone's time. As a hiring manager, I just want people to tell me what they need to be happy, and I'll get it. Or, I'll tell them no.

    On a side note, this is why so many people are unhappy in their jobs and underpaid. They're afraid to ask for what they want. I coach all my managers to ask our employees "are you happy?", "would you ever leave?" because so many people feel like they're not allowed to talk about salary or what they want. I'd rather someone be direct than quit and leave, only to tell me "you never gave me the thing I wanted but didn't ask for."
    sureshoe
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by sureshoe »

    Mr-et-Mrs-R wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:57 am A few things stood out to me as I read this thread:
    • Find out what their road map is with DB2; are they planning on moving away from this technology stack to something else, or are they going to stay with it?
      -- I had a job where the employer begged me to learn Lotus Notes development, I did my research and saw that it was a career dead end. We parted ways about a year later.
    • Are there things in this new job that you do want to learn?
    • How is the manager of the team you'll be reporting to at:
      • Resolving / removing blockers from getting the job done?
      • Encouraging learning, innovation, and keeping the team happy?
      • As few other thoughts that I know I'm missing (still on first cup of joe).
    • Bonus / Pay / Total Package (Stock (grants, RSUs, ESPP), 401(k), medical, intangibles).
    To the initial question; no it is not reasonable to take a pay cut for a shorter commute. Ever. Don't sell yourself short.
    Also, personally, I would never live more than 30 minutes away from my office, using public transportation.
    Advantages are many, chiefly I'm not driving and it's a hard stop when my bus comes.
    I 100% agree with you on old tech. That's more important for future earnings.

    Although, I do need to poke you on conflicting advice. "Don't take a paycut for a shorter commute." But then you say you would "never have a more than 30 minute commute, only with public transportation." If you were offered 20% more pay, but it was a 35 minute bus ride... would you take it. The answer is either "yes", and in that case, you're extending the commute. Or the answer is "no" and you're taking a pay cut for a shorter commute. This is "loss aversion" - people feel they can't "give up what they have". It's a framing problem of 2 equal choices.
    Topic Author
    CobraKai
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by CobraKai »

    Mr-et-Mrs-R wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:57 am A few things stood out to me as I read this thread:
    • Find out what their road map is with DB2; are they planning on moving away from this technology stack to something else, or are they going to stay with it?
      -- I had a job where the employer begged me to learn Lotus Notes development, I did my research and saw that it was a career dead end. We parted ways about a year later.
    • Are there things in this new job that you do want to learn?
    It sounds more like most of my work would be in DB2. I would need a job description.
    Mr-et-Mrs-R wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:57 am[*]How is the manager of the team you'll be reporting to at:
    • Resolving / removing blockers from getting the job done?
    • Encouraging learning, innovation, and keeping the team happy?
    Honesty I have no idea. He could be an incompetent micromanager with a toxic personality or he could be a great manager. I do not know anyone that has worked with him nor have I had any luck finding anyone who has. With two recent departures from his department, that does have me wondering.
    Mr-et-Mrs-R wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:57 am[*]As few other thoughts that I know I'm missing (still on first cup of joe).[/list]
    [*]Bonus / Pay / Total Package (Stock (grants, RSUs, ESPP), 401(k), medical, intangibles).[/list]
    I went through that in earlier posts but to summarize - health insurance costs $200 more per month than current job. Benefits (insurance, 401, PTO accrual) do not kick in until after the 90 days "probationary period" is up.
    Mr-et-Mrs-R wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:57 amTo the initial question; no it is not reasonable to take a pay cut for a shorter commute. Ever. Don't sell yourself short.
    Also, personally, I would never live more than 30 minutes away from my office, using public transportation.
    Advantages are many, chiefly I'm not driving and it's a hard stop when my bus comes.
    As much as I'd love to dump the commute, I'm afraid I'm making too many concessions if I take this position unless they are willing and able to address some of the issues. It would be an uphill battle though.
    Topic Author
    CobraKai
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by CobraKai »

    sureshoe wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:22 am If you aren't excited and have what you want, it's a losing proposition. And, asking for things that don't "get you to yes" is just wasting everyone's time. As a hiring manager, I just want people to tell me what they need to be happy, and I'll get it. Or, I'll tell them no.
    I'd be more excited if there were fewer cons compared to the pros. There are quite a few issues (outdated tech, early start time, insurance costs, less PTO, 90 days before benefits kick in, etc). I guess I would have to see if they can address any of these issues and increase the compensation to make up for the other issues.

    If they're not willing to negotiate then forget it.
    sureshoe wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:22 amOn a side note, this is why so many people are unhappy in their jobs and underpaid. They're afraid to ask for what they want. I coach all my managers to ask our employees "are you happy?", "would you ever leave?" because so many people feel like they're not allowed to talk about salary or what they want. I'd rather someone be direct than quit and leave, only to tell me "you never gave me the thing I wanted but didn't ask for."
    So you'd say it's better to ask for a telecommute day (for example) while still employed rather than when giving your notice and a competing offer? If I stick with current gig, I think even one telecommute day per week would go a long way. I have thought about using this offer as leverage but I can see that backfiring if they think I'm "looking" and they can then begin the process of replacing me.
    sergio
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by sergio »

    CobraKai wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:49 am
    sureshoe wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:22 am If you aren't excited and have what you want, it's a losing proposition. And, asking for things that don't "get you to yes" is just wasting everyone's time. As a hiring manager, I just want people to tell me what they need to be happy, and I'll get it. Or, I'll tell them no.
    I'd be more excited if there were fewer cons compared to the pros. There are quite a few issues (outdated tech, early start time, insurance costs, less PTO, 90 days before benefits kick in, etc). I guess I would have to see if they can address any of these issues and increase the compensation to make up for the other issues.

    If they're not willing to negotiate then forget it.
    sureshoe wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:22 amOn a side note, this is why so many people are unhappy in their jobs and underpaid. They're afraid to ask for what they want. I coach all my managers to ask our employees "are you happy?", "would you ever leave?" because so many people feel like they're not allowed to talk about salary or what they want. I'd rather someone be direct than quit and leave, only to tell me "you never gave me the thing I wanted but didn't ask for."
    So you'd say it's better to ask for a telecommute day (for example) while still employed rather than when giving your notice and a competing offer? If I stick with current gig, I think even one telecommute day per week would go a long way. I have thought about using this offer as leverage but I can see that backfiring if they think I'm "looking" and they can then begin the process of replacing me.
    Honestly, my gut tells me to pass on this offer. The low Glassdoor rating, the drop-off in benefits, the older tech stack, early start time, loss of PTO etc. Small/medium companies can also be incredibly hit or miss on culture. In my experience larger companies tend to range from "kinda sucky" to "pretty decent" whereas smaller companies range from "unbearable" to "great".

    45 minutes is a tough commute but I've seen way worse. It seems like it's mostly highway driving with limited traffic, which is not nearly as tiring as sitting in slow traffic on city roads for 45 minutes. This means you can use the time while driving to listen to podcasts. Before work from home, I used to listen to podcasts related to my field to help me keep up with what was going on. Sometimes I also got phone calls out of the way as well.

    I also highly suggest getting on LinkedIn (I saw earlier you said you're not on LinkedIn). My brother just got a job with a 50% increase in salary and better benefits after being contacted by a recruiter on LinkedIn 6 weeks ago. I regularly get contacted by reputable companies asking if I'm interested in talking to them about some job openings they have.
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by CobraKai »

    sergio wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:11 am Honestly, my gut tells me to pass on this offer. The low Glassdoor rating, the drop-off in benefits, the older tech stack, early start time, loss of PTO etc.
    Yeah, same here. They may be able to address some of them. Worth a try I guess but it would be an uphill battle.
    sergio wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:11 amSmall/medium companies can also be incredibly hit or miss on culture.

    In my experience larger companies tend to range from "kinda sucky" to "pretty decent" whereas smaller companies range from "unbearable" to "great".
    I have had better experiences in large companies as far as culture goes but that's just me.
    sergio wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:11 am 45 minutes is a tough commute but I've seen way worse. It seems like it's mostly highway driving with limited traffic, which is not nearly as tiring as sitting in slow traffic on city roads for 45 minutes.
    That is true!
    sergio wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:11 amThis means you can use the time while driving to listen to podcasts. Before work from home, I used to listen to podcasts related to my field to help me keep up with what was going on. Sometimes I also got phone calls out of the way as well.

    Yeah I do listen to podcasts and make phone calls during that time.
    sergio wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:11 amI also highly suggest getting on LinkedIn (I saw earlier you said you're not on LinkedIn). My brother just got a job with a 50% increase in salary and better benefits after being contacted by a recruiter on LinkedIn 6 weeks ago. I regularly get contacted by reputable companies asking if I'm interested in talking to them about some job openings they have.
    Interesting! I'm not big on social media but will reconsider LinkedIn.
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by sureshoe »

    CobraKai wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:49 am
    sureshoe wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:22 amOn a side note, this is why so many people are unhappy in their jobs and underpaid. They're afraid to ask for what they want. I coach all my managers to ask our employees "are you happy?", "would you ever leave?" because so many people feel like they're not allowed to talk about salary or what they want. I'd rather someone be direct than quit and leave, only to tell me "you never gave me the thing I wanted but didn't ask for."
    So you'd say it's better to ask for a telecommute day (for example) while still employed rather than when giving your notice and a competing offer? If I stick with current gig, I think even one telecommute day per week would go a long way. I have thought about using this offer as leverage but I can see that backfiring if they think I'm "looking" and they can then begin the process of replacing me.
    I think it's absolutely reasonable to say to your current employer, "I really love my job and see myself being here long-term. The one thing that is really damaging my work life balance is my commute. If I had just 1 day a week I didn't have to make that commute and could remote, it would go a long way in increasing my job satisfaction."

    You don't want to go to them with an offer saying "give me more or I'll leave." It creates unnecessary friction - lots of managers take a "to heck with them" mentality on that. I also wouldn't say to them, "give me a remote day or I'll start looking."

    And look - your success with your current employer may vary. I can't say how their mind works. Some managers might be ticked you asked for anything, but you don't want to work for that person. If you're respectful and seeking alignment, that's what a professional looks like. If there is an "absolutely no remote no matter what" policy and that's been reiterated, then it's probably fruitless. But, if you current have flexibility, maybe there's an option.

    One more real example - I had a valued employee ask to take multiple unpaid weeks of vacation. I granted it, because I knew the person would likely quit otherwise. I had one employee ask to work 100% remote, I said no, because I didn't care if he left (and he did a few months later). I granted it to another employee, because I wanted that employee to be saved.

    Managers have a lot more flexibility than they admit... if they want you.
    Topic Author
    CobraKai
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by CobraKai »

    sureshoe wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:47 am I think it's absolutely reasonable to say to your current employer, "I really love my job and see myself being here long-term. The one thing that is really damaging my work life balance is my commute. If I had just 1 day a week I didn't have to make that commute and could remote, it would go a long way in increasing my job satisfaction."

    You don't want to go to them with an offer saying "give me more or I'll leave." It creates unnecessary friction - lots of managers take a "to heck with them" mentality on that. I also wouldn't say to them, "give me a remote day or I'll start looking."
    Makes sense! I know the topic has come up before, initiated by other employees. The manager will go to upper management but they never get back to him. There is a different manager now and I thought I would try again.
    sureshoe wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:47 amAnd look - your success with your current employer may vary. I can't say how their mind works. Some managers might be ticked you asked for anything, but you don't want to work for that person. If you're respectful and seeking alignment, that's what a professional looks like. If there is an "absolutely no remote no matter what" policy and that's been reiterated, then it's probably fruitless. But, if you current have flexibility, maybe there's an option.

    One more real example - I had a valued employee ask to take multiple unpaid weeks of vacation. I granted it, because I knew the person would likely quit otherwise. I had one employee ask to work 100% remote, I said no, because I didn't care if he left (and he did a few months later). I granted it to another employee, because I wanted that employee to be saved.

    Managers have a lot more flexibility than they admit... if they want you.
    or if they need you. I do have skills that others in the group do not have and department is short handed and it would be a blow if anyone were to leave. I guess it can't hurt to ask. Thanks for your insight from a manager point of view.
    il0kin
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by il0kin »

    Too many red flags, not enough compensation considering your skillset. Keep looking, you’ll find something better and maybe even fully remote.

    I’m in this job space and left my old, stable, megacorp position for a young (but not small anymore) company and got a 25% base salary increase plus bonus and RSUs and full time remote, forever.

    You can do so much better.
    Mr-et-Mrs-R
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by Mr-et-Mrs-R »

    CobraKai wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:44 am It sounds more like most of my work would be in DB2. I would need a job description.
    -- snipped my stuff --
    Honesty I have no idea. He could be an incompetent micromanager with a toxic personality or he could be a great manager. I do not know anyone that has worked with him nor have I had any luck finding anyone who has. With two recent departures from his department, that does have me wondering.

    -- snipped my stuff --
    I went through that in earlier posts but to summarize - health insurance costs $200 more per month than current job. Benefits (insurance, 401, PTO accrual) do not kick in until after the 90 days "probationary period" is up.

    -- snipped my stuff --
    As much as I'd love to dump the commute, I'm afraid I'm making too many concessions if I take this position unless they are willing and able to address some of the issues. It would be an uphill battle though.
    It sounds like a hard pass from you since they are not willing to discuss things even at the exploratory level.
    Still, go in an informational interview with no expectations, and for the practice. You could also Google "Company's name", "skill set", site:linkedin.com and see who's worked there in the past and make an inquiry through LinkedIn.
    Topic Author
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by CobraKai »

    il0kin wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:08 pm Too many red flags, not enough compensation considering your skillset. Keep looking, you’ll find something better and maybe even fully remote.
    Too much of an uphill battle to bother with a counter you'd say?

    I am thinking about asking them to match my current salary and vacation time, which is unlikely. That would get me near a 30% compensation increase with everything factored in (salary, much shorter commute, benefits etc).
    il0kin wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:08 pm I’m in this job space and left my old, stable, megacorp position for a young (but not small anymore) company and got a 25% base salary increase plus bonus and RSUs and full time remote, forever.

    You can do so much better.
    Awesome! I received an offer earlier this year with a similar base salary as yours increased but turned it down as there were a number of dealbreakers (longer hours, long commute, more on call, etc).
    Topic Author
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by CobraKai »

    Mr-et-Mrs-R wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:35 pm
    CobraKai wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:44 am It sounds more like most of my work would be in DB2. I would need a job description.
    -- snipped my stuff --
    Honesty I have no idea. He could be an incompetent micromanager with a toxic personality or he could be a great manager. I do not know anyone that has worked with him nor have I had any luck finding anyone who has. With two recent departures from his department, that does have me wondering.

    -- snipped my stuff --
    I went through that in earlier posts but to summarize - health insurance costs $200 more per month than current job. Benefits (insurance, 401, PTO accrual) do not kick in until after the 90 days "probationary period" is up.

    -- snipped my stuff --
    As much as I'd love to dump the commute, I'm afraid I'm making too many concessions if I take this position unless they are willing and able to address some of the issues. It would be an uphill battle though.
    It sounds like a hard pass from you since they are not willing to discuss things even at the exploratory level.
    Still, go in an informational interview with no expectations, and for the practice. You could also Google "Company's name", "skill set", site:linkedin.com and see who's worked there in the past and make an inquiry through LinkedIn.
    Thanks for the info. Already had the interviews.
    I was able to obtain some more info and the manager is willing to answer more questions.
    They are looking to eventually replace their archaic system and want the new employee to learn it and assist with the eventual transition to something more modern.
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by CobraKai »

    Mr-et-Mrs-R wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:35 pm
    CobraKai wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:44 am It sounds more like most of my work would be in DB2. I would need a job description.
    -- snipped my stuff --
    Honesty I have no idea. He could be an incompetent micromanager with a toxic personality or he could be a great manager. I do not know anyone that has worked with him nor have I had any luck finding anyone who has. With two recent departures from his department, that does have me wondering.

    -- snipped my stuff --
    I went through that in earlier posts but to summarize - health insurance costs $200 more per month than current job. Benefits (insurance, 401, PTO accrual) do not kick in until after the 90 days "probationary period" is up.

    -- snipped my stuff --
    As much as I'd love to dump the commute, I'm afraid I'm making too many concessions if I take this position unless they are willing and able to address some of the issues. It would be an uphill battle though.
    It sounds like a hard pass from you since they are not willing to discuss things even at the exploratory level.
    Still, go in an informational interview with no expectations, and for the practice. You could also Google "Company's name", "skill set", site:linkedin.com and see who's worked there in the past and make an inquiry through LinkedIn.
    Thanks for the info. Already had the interviews.
    I was able to obtain some more info via email and the manager is willing to answer more questions.
    They are looking to eventually replace their archaic system and want the new employee to learn it and assist with the eventual transition to something more modern. Unfortunately they only gave me two days to respond to the offer. I think I may counter with something higher than my bottom line number as (even thought it might price me out of the job) and then put the ball in their court.
    Mr-et-Mrs-R
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by Mr-et-Mrs-R »

    sureshoe wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:25 am I 100% agree with you on old tech. That's more important for future earnings.

    Although, I do need to poke you on conflicting advice. "Don't take a paycut for a shorter commute." But then you say you would "never have a more than 30 minute commute, only with public transportation." If you were offered 20% more pay, but it was a 35 minute bus ride... would you take it. The answer is either "yes", and in that case, you're extending the commute. Or the answer is "no" and you're taking a pay cut for a shorter commute. This is "loss aversion" - people feel they can't "give up what they have". It's a framing problem of 2 equal choices.
    Of course I would take the job, but I would also begin looking for a new place to live.
    The "loss aversion" can also be applied to the question of where one calls home.
    danaht
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by danaht »

    If all other things are equal - then I would say it is definitely worth taking a $6,000 decrease in pay to only have a 5 mile commute.
    A 45 mile (90 miles daily) commute has a lot of risks with traffic accidents. Even if you are a great driver - there are a lot of bad drivers that you will have to contend with. The savings for insurance costs, gas (or electricity) costs, car maintenance, and the additional time you get back from not having a long commute is well worth $6,000. I would definitely do this. Fortunately for me - I have been working from home the past 1.5 years due to the pandemic. My company will probably ask us to go back to the office in April 2022. I'll have to contend with a long 30 mile commute (60 miles a day) when that happens. I'm hoping they adopt a hybrid approach where we can at least work from home part of the time.
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by chipperd »

    OP, what have you decided to do?
    "A portfolio is like a bar of soap, the more it's handled, the less there is." Dr. William Bernstein
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by sureshoe »

    Mr-et-Mrs-R wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:04 pm
    sureshoe wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:25 am I 100% agree with you on old tech. That's more important for future earnings.

    Although, I do need to poke you on conflicting advice. "Don't take a paycut for a shorter commute." But then you say you would "never have a more than 30 minute commute, only with public transportation." If you were offered 20% more pay, but it was a 35 minute bus ride... would you take it. The answer is either "yes", and in that case, you're extending the commute. Or the answer is "no" and you're taking a pay cut for a shorter commute. This is "loss aversion" - people feel they can't "give up what they have". It's a framing problem of 2 equal choices.
    Of course I would take the job, but I would also begin looking for a new place to live.
    The "loss aversion" can also be applied to the question of where one calls home.
    Even if it meant living in a city where you pay 20% more for the same quality house?

    My point is "Don't ever take a paycut" or "always take the higher paying job" is not really good advice. A lot of people could make 50% or more if they relocated, but salary is not the end-all-be-all.
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by CobraKai »

    chipperd wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:11 am OP, what have you decided to do?
    Honestly I am still on the fence on possibly joining the company. However, I cannot accept the current terms and will likely counter. There is the extra $200 per month insurance costs, job title, 3 month gap between job where I would need to purchase my own insurance/would not have a 401k match/etc that would need to be addressed.

    They are open to negotiation.

    Debating whether to overreach a bit, or just give them my rock bottom numbers (that would likely be to match my current salary and time off). At this point, would there be any disadvantage to disclosing my salary to them? Also they would need to increase paid time off. I would be a significant number of PTO days as it currently stands. Would it be out of line to ask them to match?

    Is it better to counter via phone or e-mail? I really do need more time to decide as they only gave me a couple of days to evaluate their offer.
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by il0kin »

    CobraKai wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:29 am
    chipperd wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:11 am OP, what have you decided to do?
    Honestly I am still on the fence on possibly joining the company. However, I cannot accept the current terms and will likely counter. There is the extra $200 per month insurance costs, job title, 3 month gap between job where I would need to purchase my own insurance/would not have a 401k match/etc that would need to be addressed.

    They are open to negotiation.

    Debating whether to overreach a bit, or just give them my rock bottom numbers (that would likely be to match my current salary and time off). At this point, would there be any disadvantage to disclosing my salary to them? Also they would need to increase paid time off. I would be a significant number of PTO days as it currently stands. Would it be out of line to ask them to match?

    Is it better to counter via phone or e-mail? I really do need more time to decide as they only gave me a couple of days to evaluate their offer.
    The hiring market is so tight, especially with the skills you have, tell them exactly what you WANT and don’t give them rock bottom. They can choose to accept your terms, if not, so be it.

    Email ONLY. You want this clearly documented.
    Topic Author
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by CobraKai »

    il0kin wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:53 am
    CobraKai wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:29 am
    chipperd wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:11 am OP, what have you decided to do?
    Honestly I am still on the fence on possibly joining the company. However, I cannot accept the current terms and will likely counter. There is the extra $200 per month insurance costs, job title, 3 month gap between job where I would need to purchase my own insurance/would not have a 401k match/etc that would need to be addressed.

    They are open to negotiation.

    Debating whether to overreach a bit, or just give them my rock bottom numbers (that would likely be to match my current salary and time off). At this point, would there be any disadvantage to disclosing my salary to them? Also they would need to increase paid time off. I would be a significant number of PTO days as it currently stands. Would it be out of line to ask them to match?

    Is it better to counter via phone or e-mail? I really do need more time to decide as they only gave me a couple of days to evaluate their offer.
    The hiring market is so tight, especially with the skills you have, tell them exactly what you WANT and don’t give them rock bottom. They can choose to accept your terms, if not, so be it.

    Email ONLY. You want this clearly documented.
    Makes sense!
    Should I e-mail the hiring manager as well as the HR person?
    Is there any downside to disclosing my current salary at this point?
    il0kin
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by il0kin »

    CobraKai wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:27 am
    il0kin wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:53 am
    CobraKai wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:29 am
    chipperd wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:11 am OP, what have you decided to do?
    Honestly I am still on the fence on possibly joining the company. However, I cannot accept the current terms and will likely counter. There is the extra $200 per month insurance costs, job title, 3 month gap between job where I would need to purchase my own insurance/would not have a 401k match/etc that would need to be addressed.

    They are open to negotiation.

    Debating whether to overreach a bit, or just give them my rock bottom numbers (that would likely be to match my current salary and time off). At this point, would there be any disadvantage to disclosing my salary to them? Also they would need to increase paid time off. I would be a significant number of PTO days as it currently stands. Would it be out of line to ask them to match?

    Is it better to counter via phone or e-mail? I really do need more time to decide as they only gave me a couple of days to evaluate their offer.
    The hiring market is so tight, especially with the skills you have, tell them exactly what you WANT and don’t give them rock bottom. They can choose to accept your terms, if not, so be it.

    Email ONLY. You want this clearly documented.
    Makes sense!
    Should I e-mail the hiring manager as well as the HR person?
    Is there any downside to disclosing my current salary at this point?
    Sure, email both.

    “In order to leave my current position, here is what I need to see in an offer. I’d love to join the team, so I hope we can come to agreement on these items.”

    But I still think you can do better in the market and get a fully remote job.
    worthit
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by worthit »

    OP:

    Commuting more than 30 minutes one way tops isn't worth it IMHO.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... -its-toll/

    YMMV.

    Good luck.
    chipperd
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by chipperd »

    CobraKai wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:29 am
    chipperd wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:11 am OP, what have you decided to do?
    Honestly I am still on the fence on possibly joining the company. However, I cannot accept the current terms and will likely counter. There is the extra $200 per month insurance costs, job title, 3 month gap between job where I would need to purchase my own insurance/would not have a 401k match/etc that would need to be addressed.

    They are open to negotiation.

    Debating whether to overreach a bit, or just give them my rock bottom numbers (that would likely be to match my current salary and time off). At this point, would there be any disadvantage to disclosing my salary to them? Also they would need to increase paid time off. I would be a significant number of PTO days as it currently stands. Would it be out of line to ask them to match?

    Is it better to counter via phone or e-mail? I really do need more time to decide as they only gave me a couple of days to evaluate their offer.
    Huge downside to giving them your salary as it's not relevant. What is relevant is what you need to make the jump to a different ship. Politely let them know what you need as far as salary, job responsibilities, PTO, etc, then when they get back to you, if you need a couple days let them know you'll be back to them by the end of business in two days.
    All needs to be done via email so you have the revised offer in writing. Let them know if you don't hear back from them by x date, you will kindly assume they are no longer interested in your services under those conditions.
    If they balk, you walk.
    "A portfolio is like a bar of soap, the more it's handled, the less there is." Dr. William Bernstein
    Topic Author
    CobraKai
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by CobraKai »

    il0kin wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:27 am Sure, email both.

    “In order to leave my current position, here is what I need to see in an offer. I’d love to join the team, so I hope we can come to agreement on these items.”

    But I still think you can do better in the market and get a fully remote job.
    I just e-mailed the HR guy (before seeing this). Oh well, I'm sure it got to the manager. I gave them a number and will see if they respond. In the meantime, I will look around for remote gigs. Of course that's what everyone wants these days but it's worth a shot.
    Topic Author
    CobraKai
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by CobraKai »

    worthit wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:58 am OP:

    Commuting more than 30 minutes one way tops isn't worth it IMHO.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... -its-toll/

    YMMV.

    Good luck.
    Interesting article. Regardless of whether I take this job or not, I do want to reduce or eliminate this commute.

    Physical symptoms range from headaches and backaches to digestive problems and high blood pressure. Mental ills include sleep disturbances, fatigue and concentration problems.

    Some of these symptoms ring a bell.

    Other individuals misjudge the strength of their self-determination, according to Haefner. When they first begin commuting, they think, “I’ll put up with this for two or three years, and then I’ll reconsider things.” But the force of habit, chronic shortage of time and lack of energy all thwart the victims from seeking a better solution later. Schneider adds that “long-distance commuters often simply cannot imagine any alternative to the status quo. They do not even think of changing jobs or moving, no matter how much they suffer from the daily ordeal.”

    I can relate to this!
    Topic Author
    CobraKai
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by CobraKai »

    chipperd wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:31 pm Huge downside to giving them your salary as it's not relevant. What is relevant is what you need to make the jump to a different ship. Politely let them know what you need as far as salary, job responsibilities, PTO, etc, then when they get back to you, if you need a couple days let them know you'll be back to them by the end of business in two days.
    I didn't give them my salary but let them know I'd be taking a pay cut (as well as lose PTO) if I were to accept their offer.
    chipperd wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:31 pmAll needs to be done via email so you have the revised offer in writing. Let them know if you don't hear back from them by x date, you will kindly assume they are no longer interested in your services under those conditions.
    If they balk, you walk.
    I sent my counter before seeing this. If I don't hear back from them in a couple business days, I will reach out and ask if they are still interested.
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    quantAndHold
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by quantAndHold »

    sureshoe wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:30 am
    Mr-et-Mrs-R wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:04 pm
    sureshoe wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:25 am I 100% agree with you on old tech. That's more important for future earnings.

    Although, I do need to poke you on conflicting advice. "Don't take a paycut for a shorter commute." But then you say you would "never have a more than 30 minute commute, only with public transportation." If you were offered 20% more pay, but it was a 35 minute bus ride... would you take it. The answer is either "yes", and in that case, you're extending the commute. Or the answer is "no" and you're taking a pay cut for a shorter commute. This is "loss aversion" - people feel they can't "give up what they have". It's a framing problem of 2 equal choices.
    Of course I would take the job, but I would also begin looking for a new place to live.
    The "loss aversion" can also be applied to the question of where one calls home.
    Even if it meant living in a city where you pay 20% more for the same quality house?

    My point is "Don't ever take a paycut" or "always take the higher paying job" is not really good advice. A lot of people could make 50% or more if they relocated, but salary is not the end-all-be-all.
    If someone reduces their commute from 45 miles each way to 5, they are probably coming out ahead financially, even if they have to pay 20% more for housing. Driving is expensive.
    Topic Author
    CobraKai
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by CobraKai »

    I countered and asked for 10K more (4k above current salary) thinking that we would be willing to meet in the middle but they turned me down.

    Oh well. Back to square one.
    KlangFool
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by KlangFool »

    CobraKai wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:03 am I countered and asked for 10K more (4k above current salary) thinking that we would be willing to meet in the middle but they turned me down.

    Oh well. Back to square one.
    It is not square one.

    In the process of knowing what does not work. you had learned something. It would be easier to do the next one.

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    sureshoe
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by sureshoe »

    quantAndHold wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:56 am
    sureshoe wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:30 am
    Mr-et-Mrs-R wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:04 pm
    sureshoe wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:25 am I 100% agree with you on old tech. That's more important for future earnings.

    Although, I do need to poke you on conflicting advice. "Don't take a paycut for a shorter commute." But then you say you would "never have a more than 30 minute commute, only with public transportation." If you were offered 20% more pay, but it was a 35 minute bus ride... would you take it. The answer is either "yes", and in that case, you're extending the commute. Or the answer is "no" and you're taking a pay cut for a shorter commute. This is "loss aversion" - people feel they can't "give up what they have". It's a framing problem of 2 equal choices.
    Of course I would take the job, but I would also begin looking for a new place to live.
    The "loss aversion" can also be applied to the question of where one calls home.
    Even if it meant living in a city where you pay 20% more for the same quality house?

    My point is "Don't ever take a paycut" or "always take the higher paying job" is not really good advice. A lot of people could make 50% or more if they relocated, but salary is not the end-all-be-all.
    If someone reduces their commute from 45 miles each way to 5, they are probably coming out ahead financially, even if they have to pay 20% more for housing. Driving is expensive.
    The point is > there isn't a single deciding factor. We have people saying "never take a paycut", but it's just bad advice and a bad mentality.

    If you have a job you're happy with and can get a 20% pay raise by adding a commute or MOVING WHERE YOU LIVE, that is not a great decision for a lot of people. If all your friends/family are nearby, asking your kids to change schools, etc... just to make 20% more money while paying to live in a more expensive place probably doesn't work.

    But again, we're talking hypotheticals. Give real examples and you can make a decision. The point in this post was a person looking at a $6k lower pay for 40 minutes less commute. I'd take the $6k less every time, all other things being equal. And, I wouldn't move houses if I have viable alternatives where I current live to eliminate the commute.
    il0kin
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    Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

    Post by il0kin »

    CobraKai wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:03 am I countered and asked for 10K more (4k above current salary) thinking that we would be willing to meet in the middle but they turned me down.

    Oh well. Back to square one.
    I know a number of people in the SQL world who have taken remote positions for better pay in the past few months. You can get what you want! Open your job search to remote positions and start working with some recruiters. You can do this!
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