I can answer your question - I would wait for the actual offer and then prepare a well-thought counter.Patzer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:31 pmI was told last week it would be on my Sept 1st paycheck, so why would I pretend a salary increase I am getting in a few days isn't going to happen and not consider it in my offer?
I wish people could answer my actual question, which was whether I should reach out before the offer is delivered or negotiate once it arrives.
Instead, of commenting on if they think, that I deserve to get paid for the work I do.
How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
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Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
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Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
You'd be surprised. If you're a people/hiring manager, you may have access to the salary bands. We did up to VP level.Patzer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:12 pmNot sure how to figure out the range beyond gathering salaries of people in the role and trying to calculate the range from that. It's not like HR is going to give me the range.Wannaretireearly wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:02 pmMy point is knowledge is power. If you know the HR range and mid point you can have a point to negotiate. Trying to compare with others is a losing game.Patzer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:29 pmI know the salaries of 7 directors.Wannaretireearly wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:23 pm OP, how close to mid point of Director salary range will this new offer be? Remember HR intervenes in these matters. Sometime for the good, sometimes not...
They are 1.38x, 1.45x, 1.53x, and 4 people at 1.65x.
1.2x is very out of line, but running to HR is a dangerous game.
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Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
I was just tweaking TomatoTomahto for what came across (to me) as an (uncharacteristic) unnecessary belittling of the OP, but these comments are interesting. Are you (8foot7) saying that the ICs in FAANG (apparently the highest-paid in their sector) are more likely to take this quid pro quo approach?8foot7 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:55 pmI believe this to generally be the case most places outside of FAANGland.TomatoTomahto wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:49 pmI’m not answering for Dottie, but myself. I made the distinction, arguably poorly, between “low paid ICs” and higher paid ICs (and managers) who I don’t believe think that way. I’m old and have paid attention; accepting stretch assignments and doing well at them leads to increases in compensation greater than negotiation does. My 2 cents.EddyB wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:39 pmWhich part? The snarky dismissiveness of “low paid ICs”?Dottie57 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:46 pmThis.TomatoTomahto wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:12 pm
IME, some low paid ICs think like this, and I guess it’s what they hear from their peers. When you move up the ranks, I don’t think anyone I know has ever expectrd a quid pro quo for taking on a stretch opportunity. Do a good job and the money shows up.
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
Recently took what sounds like a similar promotion - higher level manager. Didn’t get and never expected anything near a 45% increase. I’m confident that would have been summarily rejected and I’m not even sure I’d have been offered the job still once they knew how different my salary expectations were from reality. 20% sounds reasonable to ask and I’d prepare to accept closer to 10%…Patzer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:00 pm I am an manager and currently make X. I took a promotion quite some time ago, and am only going to finally get the raise in September to move up to 1.15X. I am doing well and on the path to become a Director and make 1.45-1.6X within 3 years if I stay the course, because I have a rock solid reputation.
A SVP asked to meet with me and asked me to run a new department we are creating. The nature of this department is that it will be lower paying.
I laid out my current career path, and why it didn't really make sense for me to take on the challenge.
We discussed it and we agreed that I would be a good fit to lead the department, but that the title would have to be a Director level title and come with Director level pay in order for it to be a good career move for me.
They agreed, and frankly, I thought they would come back with something like 1.35X and I would have to negotiate up to 1.45X. Enough to make it worth it.
I hear that the offer that is being prepared is for 1.2X. Obviously, I am going to say no to that.
My question is, do I try to intervene now, and send them an email reminding them of my salary expectations, or do I wait until they present the terrible offer.
Reaching out to remind them of my salary expectations might be seen as too aggressive... but trying to negotiate up from 1.2X to 1.45X is going to be very hard.
Excited for you if actually get 45%
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
Imagine how this thread would read if it was written from the SVPs perspective.
SVP: I’ve got a great kid under my wing. I already promoted him once this year. He’s doing great. I saw a plum new opportunity open up, and I offered to him. So 2 promotions in 1 year. I went out in a limb for this one, because I believe in them. At first, they flatly refused the offer, because it wasn’t in their “career vision”. Then after discussing a bit, I think they’d begrudgingly take it if we called them “director”….
I like this guy, I really do. But I’m turned off by this apparent “me first” attitude. I’m sure they can do the job. But I’ve got others that can do the job as well, and they just seem more like “team players” to me.
If I can somehow agree to their wishes, I don’t even know if I should. They haven’t really mastered the new role they’ve only been in for a short while. But given their response, I’m really doubtful they won’t just jump ship in a year anyway. Or another way, I’m going out if my way to look after them, and they’re being difficult. Maybe I sized them up wrong. I can’t imagine what they’ll act like once they’ve got the job.
SVP: I’ve got a great kid under my wing. I already promoted him once this year. He’s doing great. I saw a plum new opportunity open up, and I offered to him. So 2 promotions in 1 year. I went out in a limb for this one, because I believe in them. At first, they flatly refused the offer, because it wasn’t in their “career vision”. Then after discussing a bit, I think they’d begrudgingly take it if we called them “director”….
I like this guy, I really do. But I’m turned off by this apparent “me first” attitude. I’m sure they can do the job. But I’ve got others that can do the job as well, and they just seem more like “team players” to me.
If I can somehow agree to their wishes, I don’t even know if I should. They haven’t really mastered the new role they’ve only been in for a short while. But given their response, I’m really doubtful they won’t just jump ship in a year anyway. Or another way, I’m going out if my way to look after them, and they’re being difficult. Maybe I sized them up wrong. I can’t imagine what they’ll act like once they’ve got the job.
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
wannaretireearly has a very good point, knowing the mid point of the salary band will help negotiation immensely. Likely as a promotion, you'll be below mid point but if you're amazing performer in the current band, you maybe able to get mid point. Regardless, you can't negotiate until you have the basis to negotiate on so wait for the offer. Good luck.Patzer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:29 pmI know the salaries of 7 directors.Wannaretireearly wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:23 pm OP, how close to mid point of Director salary range will this new offer be? Remember HR intervenes in these matters. Sometime for the good, sometimes not...
They are 1.38x, 1.45x, 1.53x, and 4 people at 1.65x.
1.2x is very out of line, but running to HR is a dangerous game.
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
The vibe I sense is that the company / management seems to be railroading OP into this role that as OP suggested will be a mess for the first year (why?)…and while lowballing on salary. You were promoted a year ago, but the pay for that is just now kicking in? And the other Ds you noted all will make more salary than you (why - are there different salary bands at each title depending on experience or some other metrics ?)…
Doesn’t seem great altogether although maybe I’m reading this the wrong way ans there’s more to the story.
I’d also wait til you have an offer in hand…but What happens if you turn the role down?
Anyway in my humble experience, promos have (maximum) come with about a 10% salary increase. And each title itself has 2 or 3 salary levels within it. There was however one promotion where I threatened to walk and got a 50% salary increase - but that involved a relocation and more generally was a situation where expended a bit of political capital to fight against what I knew (like you) was a lowball number. So I’d recommend also having some leverage via external offers or awareness if you are indeed a “star” they will do anything to keep happy.
The key change most often was (as others noted) the target bonus. In one promo my bonus went from X to 3X with a greater slug in RSUs which fortunately also appreciated in value. Salary is important but look at the total comp too.
Good luck, interested in how it turns out!
Doesn’t seem great altogether although maybe I’m reading this the wrong way ans there’s more to the story.
I’d also wait til you have an offer in hand…but What happens if you turn the role down?
Anyway in my humble experience, promos have (maximum) come with about a 10% salary increase. And each title itself has 2 or 3 salary levels within it. There was however one promotion where I threatened to walk and got a 50% salary increase - but that involved a relocation and more generally was a situation where expended a bit of political capital to fight against what I knew (like you) was a lowball number. So I’d recommend also having some leverage via external offers or awareness if you are indeed a “star” they will do anything to keep happy.
The key change most often was (as others noted) the target bonus. In one promo my bonus went from X to 3X with a greater slug in RSUs which fortunately also appreciated in value. Salary is important but look at the total comp too.
Good luck, interested in how it turns out!
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
Normchad wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:35 pm Imagine how this thread would read if it was written from the SVPs perspective.
SVP: I’ve got a great kid under my wing. I already promoted him once this year. He’s doing great. I saw a plum new opportunity open up, and I offered to him. So 2 promotions in 1 year. I went out in a limb for this one, because I believe in them. At first, they flatly refused the offer, because it wasn’t in their “career vision”. Then after discussing a bit, I think they’d begrudgingly take it if we called them “director”….
I like this guy, I really do. But I’m turned off by this apparent “me first” attitude. I’m sure they can do the job. But I’ve got others that can do the job as well, and they just seem more like “team players” to me.
If I can somehow agree to their wishes, I don’t even know if I should. They haven’t really mastered the new role they’ve only been in for a short while. But given their response, I’m really doubtful they won’t just jump ship in a year anyway. Or another way, I’m going out if my way to look after them, and they’re being difficult. Maybe I sized them up wrong. I can’t imagine what they’ll act like once they’ve got the job.
OR, their thought process is this.
I have a new department that the board wants me to create. It's going to be a complete crapshow unless I get someone great for it.
I have no one reporting to me that is fit for the role, so I asked around and literally everyone told me there is a superstar manager reporting to a different SVP that is absolutely killing it. I wonder if I can steal them away to make this project succeed.
In interviewing them I was pretty blown away, they actually came to the interview with a plan they prepared all weekend on how to make the crapshow succeed, and they have leadership at the SVP level from another company I didn't even know about.
I was so thrilled that I offered them the job in the interview, even though I had 1 other interview scheduled later in the day.
They said they saw an opportunity to do something great here, but are already on course for the first Director position that opens up in their group, so they were reluctant to accept unless the position had a Director title and Director pay.
I told them I could do that, and we agreed in principle to move forward.
I was hoping to move him over to lead a department as a Manager, even though that should be a Director position, with promises of future money and promotions that may or may not come, but he didn't bite. So, now I am making an offer with the Director title, but Manager level pay. The main issue is that it takes a lot of paperwork to try to make 2 raises happen in close succession and he already has one coming that is long overdue. The timing on this is so bad. I wish I could wait a few months and do this right, but the board said we need to do this now. The only way to get him the raise he wants is to get approval from the CFO, which happens fairly regularly, but I don't want to have that hard conversation, so I hope he takes this low ball offer.
Hard decisions like this are why I make 2x what this guy gets.
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
No, I was agreeing with "accepting stretch assignments and doing well at them leads to increases in compensation greater than negotiation does" as a typical scenario playing out with director and higher positions. Normal compensation rules don't really seem to apply nearly as much in FAANG situations.EddyB wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:26 pmI was just tweaking TomatoTomahto for what came across (to me) as an (uncharacteristic) unnecessary belittling of the OP, but these comments are interesting. Are you (8foot7) saying that the ICs in FAANG (apparently the highest-paid in their sector) are more likely to take this quid pro quo approach?8foot7 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:55 pmI believe this to generally be the case most places outside of FAANGland.TomatoTomahto wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:49 pmI’m not answering for Dottie, but myself. I made the distinction, arguably poorly, between “low paid ICs” and higher paid ICs (and managers) who I don’t believe think that way. I’m old and have paid attention; accepting stretch assignments and doing well at them leads to increases in compensation greater than negotiation does. My 2 cents.
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
I agree, and most of my 20 year career has been doing a job and then finally getting paid for it a year later.8foot7 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:13 pmNo, I was agreeing with "accepting stretch assignments and doing well at them leads to increases in compensation greater than negotiation does" as a typical scenario playing out with director and higher positions. Normal compensation rules don't really seem to apply nearly as much in FAANG situations.EddyB wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:26 pmI was just tweaking TomatoTomahto for what came across (to me) as an (uncharacteristic) unnecessary belittling of the OP, but these comments are interesting. Are you (8foot7) saying that the ICs in FAANG (apparently the highest-paid in their sector) are more likely to take this quid pro quo approach?8foot7 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:55 pmI believe this to generally be the case most places outside of FAANGland.TomatoTomahto wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:49 pmI’m not answering for Dottie, but myself. I made the distinction, arguably poorly, between “low paid ICs” and higher paid ICs (and managers) who I don’t believe think that way. I’m old and have paid attention; accepting stretch assignments and doing well at them leads to increases in compensation greater than negotiation does. My 2 cents.
If this was a stretch opportunity I was asking for, I would probably live with the low ball offer, prove I am amazing and get more comp, but this is something I am being pushed into considering. It is a wasp's nest of problems, and I need to comp now to justify diving into it.
Negotiating is hard, and anchoring with a low ball offer makes it even harder. That is why I was thinking of trying to drop them a hint before they even came to me with the offer. Once they present the offer, it's just human nature to try to defend it, even if it is indefensibly low compared to other people in the position or compared to the salary I can make on my current track.
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
For sure, that might be the case. I always caution people to think long and hard from the other persons perspective, as a way to help them get what they want.Patzer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:08 pmNormchad wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:35 pm Imagine how this thread would read if it was written from the SVPs perspective.
SVP: I’ve got a great kid under my wing. I already promoted him once this year. He’s doing great. I saw a plum new opportunity open up, and I offered to him. So 2 promotions in 1 year. I went out in a limb for this one, because I believe in them. At first, they flatly refused the offer, because it wasn’t in their “career vision”. Then after discussing a bit, I think they’d begrudgingly take it if we called them “director”….
I like this guy, I really do. But I’m turned off by this apparent “me first” attitude. I’m sure they can do the job. But I’ve got others that can do the job as well, and they just seem more like “team players” to me.
If I can somehow agree to their wishes, I don’t even know if I should. They haven’t really mastered the new role they’ve only been in for a short while. But given their response, I’m really doubtful they won’t just jump ship in a year anyway. Or another way, I’m going out if my way to look after them, and they’re being difficult. Maybe I sized them up wrong. I can’t imagine what they’ll act like once they’ve got the job.
OR, their thought process is this.
I have a new department that the board wants me to create. It's going to be a complete crapshow unless I get someone great for it.
I have no one reporting to me that is fit for the role, so I asked around and literally everyone told me there is a superstar manager reporting to a different SVP that is absolutely killing it. I wonder if I can steal them away to make this project succeed.
In interviewing them I was pretty blown away, they actually came to the interview with a plan they prepared all weekend on how to make the crapshow succeed, and they have leadership at the SVP level from another company I didn't even know about.
I was so thrilled that I offered them the job in the interview, even though I had 1 other interview scheduled later in the day.
They said they saw an opportunity to do something great here, but are already on course for the first Director position that opens up in their group, so they were reluctant to accept unless the position had a Director title and Director pay.
I told them I could do that, and we agreed in principle to move forward.
I was hoping to move him over to lead a department as a Manager, even though that should be a Director position, with promises of future money and promotions that may or may not come, but he didn't bite. So, now I am making an offer with the Director title, but Manager level pay. The main issue is that it takes a lot of paperwork to try to make 2 raises happen in close succession and he already has one coming that is long overdue. The timing on this is so bad. I wish I could wait a few months and do this right, but the board said we need to do this now. The only way to get him the raise he wants is to get approval from the CFO, which happens fairly regularly, but I don't want to have that hard conversation, so I hope he takes this low ball offer.
Hard decisions like this are why I make 2x what this guy gets.
If your perspective of the situation is fundamentally different than the SVP, it makes it really hard to get what you want. So really think about it from their position, so you can really understand what they value and what their motivation is.
It is (to me) very surprising how many people completely misunderstand the environment or situation they are in. And this lack of situational awareness is. Dry detrimental to them.
I wish you all the best!
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
That is really good advice, which I appreciate.Normchad wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:04 pmFor sure, that might be the case. I always caution people to think long and hard from the other persons perspective, as a way to help them get what they want.Patzer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:08 pmNormchad wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:35 pm Imagine how this thread would read if it was written from the SVPs perspective.
SVP: I’ve got a great kid under my wing. I already promoted him once this year. He’s doing great. I saw a plum new opportunity open up, and I offered to him. So 2 promotions in 1 year. I went out in a limb for this one, because I believe in them. At first, they flatly refused the offer, because it wasn’t in their “career vision”. Then after discussing a bit, I think they’d begrudgingly take it if we called them “director”….
I like this guy, I really do. But I’m turned off by this apparent “me first” attitude. I’m sure they can do the job. But I’ve got others that can do the job as well, and they just seem more like “team players” to me.
If I can somehow agree to their wishes, I don’t even know if I should. They haven’t really mastered the new role they’ve only been in for a short while. But given their response, I’m really doubtful they won’t just jump ship in a year anyway. Or another way, I’m going out if my way to look after them, and they’re being difficult. Maybe I sized them up wrong. I can’t imagine what they’ll act like once they’ve got the job.
OR, their thought process is this.
I have a new department that the board wants me to create. It's going to be a complete crapshow unless I get someone great for it.
I have no one reporting to me that is fit for the role, so I asked around and literally everyone told me there is a superstar manager reporting to a different SVP that is absolutely killing it. I wonder if I can steal them away to make this project succeed.
In interviewing them I was pretty blown away, they actually came to the interview with a plan they prepared all weekend on how to make the crapshow succeed, and they have leadership at the SVP level from another company I didn't even know about.
I was so thrilled that I offered them the job in the interview, even though I had 1 other interview scheduled later in the day.
They said they saw an opportunity to do something great here, but are already on course for the first Director position that opens up in their group, so they were reluctant to accept unless the position had a Director title and Director pay.
I told them I could do that, and we agreed in principle to move forward.
I was hoping to move him over to lead a department as a Manager, even though that should be a Director position, with promises of future money and promotions that may or may not come, but he didn't bite. So, now I am making an offer with the Director title, but Manager level pay. The main issue is that it takes a lot of paperwork to try to make 2 raises happen in close succession and he already has one coming that is long overdue. The timing on this is so bad. I wish I could wait a few months and do this right, but the board said we need to do this now. The only way to get him the raise he wants is to get approval from the CFO, which happens fairly regularly, but I don't want to have that hard conversation, so I hope he takes this low ball offer.
Hard decisions like this are why I make 2x what this guy gets.
If your perspective of the situation is fundamentally different than the SVP, it makes it really hard to get what you want. So really think about it from their position, so you can really understand what they value and what their motivation is.
It is (to me) very surprising how many people completely misunderstand the environment or situation they are in. And this lack of situational awareness is. Dry detrimental to them.
I wish you all the best!
Thinking about that, I get why they are formulating a low ball offer, as I stated in my second paragraph but it doesn't make it any easier for me to accept.
It's just a terrible career option for me to take it at that salary, and rejecting it isn't ideal either.
The only way to win if I can't negotiate for higher pay is to take it, put the job title on my LinkedIn and use it to find a better job in a few months.
I am very against taking something if I intend to leave, it seems like a pretty crappy thing to do.
I got 2 more requests for an interview since I started this post, so I up to 6 now.
Also, just in general, anyone that hate's their job should be looking right now. The job market is so in favor of job seekers right now, it is ridiculous. I had someone turn down an offer I made today for 25% more than what we paid for the same position 1 year ago.
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
So whose suggestion was the director title and salary?Patzer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:00 pm A SVP asked to meet with me and asked me to run a new department we are creating. The nature of this department is that it will be lower paying.
I laid out my current career path, and why it didn't really make sense for me to take on the challenge.
We discussed it and we agreed that I would be a good fit to lead the department, but that the title would have to be a Director level title and come with Director level pay in order for it to be a good career move for me.
They agreed...
Reading between the lines, it sounds as though perhaps they had not intended to promote you nor give you an additional raise but that you "backed them into a corner" so to speak.
If that is the case, it changes the equation for them and they may be trying meet you in the middle with a promotion and raise that they had not planned on...
.
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
It was my suggestion. The job is only worth taking if it comes with the title and the comp.galawdawg wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:39 pmSo whose suggestion was the director title and salary?Patzer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:00 pm A SVP asked to meet with me and asked me to run a new department we are creating. The nature of this department is that it will be lower paying.
I laid out my current career path, and why it didn't really make sense for me to take on the challenge.
We discussed it and we agreed that I would be a good fit to lead the department, but that the title would have to be a Director level title and come with Director level pay in order for it to be a good career move for me.
They agreed...
Reading between the lines, it sounds as though perhaps they had not intended to promote you nor give you an additional raise but that you "backed them into a corner" so to speak.
If that is the case, it changes the equation for them and they may be trying meet you in the middle with a promotion and raise that they had not planned on...
.
Otherwise, my current career track is way better.
If they couldn't do it, they could just have said no, and I would have said no, and they could move on to another candidate.
With my comp going up automatically to 1.15X in a week and the salary range of other directors being 1.38x-1.65.
An offer of 1.2x is a 4.3% raise, and hardly what I would call meeting me in the middle.
You may be right about their intention, but I can't imagine how they think I will be happy with the offer when they present it to me.
I can only guess they are hoping that I will ignore that I as already due the 1.15x, and think that 1.2x is a good offer, but given that I work in a data driven technical field, those are some unrealistic hopes.
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
To answer your question, no I would not send them a reminder of your salary expectations. It's possible that the SVP will reconsider and not offer you the position since you would be making it clear what you expect your comp to be.
Regarding the forthcoming offer, the new SVP is obviously aware of your pay bump on the 1st. Is it possible that the increase is 20% on top of that and that whoever mentioned the 1.2x total from your current pay was misinformed? Also, is the comp you are talking about just base, or does that include whatever type of stock grants you will also get? If it's just salary, won't your total comp increase more anyway based on the equity grants you will get? In other words, won't the equity grants of a director be higher than what you're currently getting as a manager?
Regarding the forthcoming offer, the new SVP is obviously aware of your pay bump on the 1st. Is it possible that the increase is 20% on top of that and that whoever mentioned the 1.2x total from your current pay was misinformed? Also, is the comp you are talking about just base, or does that include whatever type of stock grants you will also get? If it's just salary, won't your total comp increase more anyway based on the equity grants you will get? In other words, won't the equity grants of a director be higher than what you're currently getting as a manager?
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Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
1) say nothing until you get an offer in writing.
2) what is your career plan if you don't take the offer? Does it depend on being promoted, or continuing to do an excellent job in your current role for only a short while longer and doesn't matter if you get passed over for every promotion until retirement?
3) If you hadn't had this discussion with SVP, would you have considered shopping around for new job given delayed comp for recent promotion? Does this involve relocation hassle?
4) why does the svp want you? Because they know the new role is a grenade and they need to put someone on it, or because they really believe in it and think its the bees knees without understanding why it is more complex?
5) is there a way that you could turn this grenade into a golden opportunity for the company if you only had x,y, or z aspirational reasources? If everyone knows this is a stinker and expects failure, if you see a path to success that you can deliver on than it is a true opportunity. Try to underpromise and over deliver. Always good if you can be the person who get it done even when everyone else thinks the project is doomed to fail.
7) weigh chances of #5 with #2 and #3. If you decide #5 make sure you get the resources for #5
2) what is your career plan if you don't take the offer? Does it depend on being promoted, or continuing to do an excellent job in your current role for only a short while longer and doesn't matter if you get passed over for every promotion until retirement?
3) If you hadn't had this discussion with SVP, would you have considered shopping around for new job given delayed comp for recent promotion? Does this involve relocation hassle?
4) why does the svp want you? Because they know the new role is a grenade and they need to put someone on it, or because they really believe in it and think its the bees knees without understanding why it is more complex?
5) is there a way that you could turn this grenade into a golden opportunity for the company if you only had x,y, or z aspirational reasources? If everyone knows this is a stinker and expects failure, if you see a path to success that you can deliver on than it is a true opportunity. Try to underpromise and over deliver. Always good if you can be the person who get it done even when everyone else thinks the project is doomed to fail.
7) weigh chances of #5 with #2 and #3. If you decide #5 make sure you get the resources for #5
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
1. That seems to be the consensus and so I am following it.Spring garden wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:23 pm 1) say nothing until you get an offer in writing.
2) what is your career plan if you don't take the offer? Does it depend on being promoted, or continuing to do an excellent job in your current role for only a short while longer and doesn't matter if you get passed over for every promotion until retirement?
3) If you hadn't had this discussion with SVP, would you have considered shopping around for new job given delayed comp for recent promotion? Does this involve relocation hassle?
4) why does the svp want you? Because they know the new role is a grenade and they need to put someone on it, or because they really believe in it and think its the bees knees without understanding why it is more complex?
5) is there a way that you could turn this grenade into a golden opportunity for the company if you only had x,y, or z aspirational reasources? If everyone knows this is a stinker and expects failure, if you see a path to success that you can deliver on than it is a true opportunity. Try to underpromise and over deliver. Always good if you can be the person who get it done even when everyone else thinks the project is doomed to fail.
7) weigh chances of #5 with #2 and #3. If you decide #5 make sure you get the resources for #5
2. I have 9.5 years until I can retire at my current level. 7.5 if I can move up to director with director pay.
Getting passed over on future opportunities would not be okay, because I like new challenges.
If my promotion options disappeared because of this, I would probably take an external offer within a few years.
3. I was content to stay the course, even with the salary delay, before all this drama started. There isn't really a relocation hassle.
4. The board thinks this new department is a good idea. Almost everyone in management thinks it's a bad idea. This SVP wants to show off to the board by making it succeed. The SVP understands it is a major challenge, but they are ambitious. They want me, because the department requires a specific set of skills that I have.
5. My initial response to the problem was to write a 5 page paper on why it would fail. I then spent the weekend, writing a 10 page paper on how to potentially avoid all the problems that I cited in the 5 page paper and I brought that to my interview.
The reason I am somewhat open to the position, is that the board wants this, so it is happening. If someone is going to do it, I would rather not see our company fail, so maybe I can make it succeed.
I feel like this position has a lot more risk than my current job and a lot more responsibility.
I need to be significantly compensated for that risk, or why change course?
Last edited by Patzer on Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
Not entirely sure that the offer not happening is a bad option.kevdude wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:20 pm To answer your question, no I would not send them a reminder of your salary expectations. It's possible that the SVP will reconsider and not offer you the position since you would be making it clear what you expect your comp to be.
Regarding the forthcoming offer, the new SVP is obviously aware of your pay bump on the 1st. Is it possible that the increase is 20% on top of that and that whoever mentioned the 1.2x total from your current pay was misinformed? Also, is the comp you are talking about just base, or does that include whatever type of stock grants you will also get? If it's just salary, won't your total comp increase more anyway based on the equity grants you will get? In other words, won't the equity grants of a director be higher than what you're currently getting as a manager?
It's only a loss if I could have waited and won a negotiation.
If I can't win, them never offering it, might save them enough face, that I don't make an enemy the same way I might by rejecting a formal offer.
Nevertheless, the consensus seems to be not saying anything until I see an offer, so I plan to wait.
I am talking total comp. Pretty sure my numbers are accurate since they are in dollars not percentage, just saying them here in percentage for a little privacy.
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Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
As a VP in a F500 company, I’m just going to add, it takes great skill to turn down an offer of promotion and not have some mark on your legacy or reputation. Maybe not fair, but reality.
The one thing you don’t want to do is leave the impression you are turning it down over compensation, I’m sure if you are having these types of discussions and conversations you are currently well compensated, just maybe not the maximum you believe possible. If you become branded as someone who’s primary motivation is salary, opportunities in your current environment will dry up. The money comes, you need your brand to be one who is motivated by challenges and deliver results.
Personally I can say 2 times I took “promotions” that came with no compensation change. They were short term “holding roles” till the bigger corporate plan could be executed that opened my intended role.
Last, you mention increases as a percentage multiple times. In my experience, as I moved through leadership roles my salary increased but as a percentage it became smaller and smaller, whereas total Comp, largely driving by RSU and performance incentives, is where the gain is. Even today an Global Exec VP, two levels above me, is only modestly higher salary but with performance incentives they are significantly higher in overall Comp. It’s very hard to value performance incentive and RSU actual payout when evaluating these types of offers. There is leap of faith and bet on yourself that comes into play.
There are probably additional benefits that may or may not be aware of. We have company cars, ability to fly spouses to certain global meetings, additional retirement and differed Comp options not available to the entire company.
The one thing you don’t want to do is leave the impression you are turning it down over compensation, I’m sure if you are having these types of discussions and conversations you are currently well compensated, just maybe not the maximum you believe possible. If you become branded as someone who’s primary motivation is salary, opportunities in your current environment will dry up. The money comes, you need your brand to be one who is motivated by challenges and deliver results.
Personally I can say 2 times I took “promotions” that came with no compensation change. They were short term “holding roles” till the bigger corporate plan could be executed that opened my intended role.
Last, you mention increases as a percentage multiple times. In my experience, as I moved through leadership roles my salary increased but as a percentage it became smaller and smaller, whereas total Comp, largely driving by RSU and performance incentives, is where the gain is. Even today an Global Exec VP, two levels above me, is only modestly higher salary but with performance incentives they are significantly higher in overall Comp. It’s very hard to value performance incentive and RSU actual payout when evaluating these types of offers. There is leap of faith and bet on yourself that comes into play.
There are probably additional benefits that may or may not be aware of. We have company cars, ability to fly spouses to certain global meetings, additional retirement and differed Comp options not available to the entire company.
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
Responses in red. Good luck, hope it works out for you.Patzer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:01 pmIt was my suggestion. The job is only worth taking if it comes with the title and the comp.galawdawg wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:39 pmSo whose suggestion was the director title and salary?Patzer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:00 pm A SVP asked to meet with me and asked me to run a new department we are creating. The nature of this department is that it will be lower paying.
I laid out my current career path, and why it didn't really make sense for me to take on the challenge.
We discussed it and we agreed that I would be a good fit to lead the department, but that the title would have to be a Director level title and come with Director level pay in order for it to be a good career move for me.
They agreed...
Reading between the lines, it sounds as though perhaps they had not intended to promote you nor give you an additional raise but that you "backed them into a corner" so to speak.
If that is the case, it changes the equation for them and they may be trying meet you in the middle with a promotion and raise that they had not planned on...
.
Otherwise, my current career track is way better. This response sounds as though you are looking out for number one and not very interested in being a team player. Perhaps that is the "norm" for your industry and/or company.
If they couldn't do it, they could just have said no, and I would have said no, and they could move on to another candidate.Again, if the assignment was one that would not ordinarily include a director title or salary, they may be working on some sort of compromise.
With my comp going up automatically to 1.15X in a week and the salary range of other directors being 1.38x-1.65.
An offer of 1.2x is a 4.3% raise, and hardly what I would call meeting me in the middle.
You may be right about their intention, but I can't imagine how they think I will be happy with the offer when they present it to me.Just realize that your career development at that company may come to an end if you decline the offer solely as a result of not getting a large enough increase. While I understand that the labor market is such that you may be able to jump ship and realize a larger increase in compensation, the grass isn't always greener.
I can only guess they are hoping that I will ignore that I as already due the 1.15x, and think that 1.2x is a good offer, but given that I work in a data driven technical field, those are some unrealistic hopes.
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
Seems like there's another possibility here that needs more consideration - "Hanlon's Razor". Don't attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence.
HR is frequently incompetent - often grossly so. Isn't it possible that some mouth breather is preparing the 1.2x offer because "computer says so" and has no idea that you're going to be at 1.15x in a few days? Isn't there a possibility that a week from now when they go to set up the offer they realize that it's only 4% and they change it - or change it after you wait to get it and then point this out to them? In short - HR may be screwing the pooch. And why would this SVP know the intricacies of your pay changes? Hint - they probably don't.
And I'd ignore the criticisms of you not being a team player - you've been doing a position without a raise for almost a year, waiting patiently and trusting your employer to do the right thing. That has team player written all over it
You were completely up front about what it would take for you to move to the new role - they shouldn't be surprised or butthurt when you say no if they fail to deliver.
But again, I don't think you should be upset of feel that they are intentionally trying to lowball you. I think there's a strong possibility that they don't know they are lowballing you - because HR sucks
HR is frequently incompetent - often grossly so. Isn't it possible that some mouth breather is preparing the 1.2x offer because "computer says so" and has no idea that you're going to be at 1.15x in a few days? Isn't there a possibility that a week from now when they go to set up the offer they realize that it's only 4% and they change it - or change it after you wait to get it and then point this out to them? In short - HR may be screwing the pooch. And why would this SVP know the intricacies of your pay changes? Hint - they probably don't.
And I'd ignore the criticisms of you not being a team player - you've been doing a position without a raise for almost a year, waiting patiently and trusting your employer to do the right thing. That has team player written all over it
You were completely up front about what it would take for you to move to the new role - they shouldn't be surprised or butthurt when you say no if they fail to deliver.
But again, I don't think you should be upset of feel that they are intentionally trying to lowball you. I think there's a strong possibility that they don't know they are lowballing you - because HR sucks
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
I agree with point that someone rarely gets the much higher salary until proving themselves in the new role. In many companies it takes a year or two.EddyB wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:39 pmWhich part? The snarky dismissiveness of “low paid ICs”?Dottie57 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:46 pmThis.TomatoTomahto wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:12 pmIME, some low paid ICs think like this, and I guess it’s what they hear from their peers. When you move up the ranks, I don’t think anyone I know has ever expectrd a quid pro quo for taking on a stretch opportunity. Do a good job and the money shows up.
Btw, I was a fairly well paid IC.
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
I have heard of Occam's Razor, but not Hanlon's. Interesting, and plausible.MBB_Boy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:45 am Seems like there's another possibility here that needs more consideration - "Hanlon's Razor". Don't attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence.
HR is frequently incompetent - often grossly so. Isn't it possible that some mouth breather is preparing the 1.2x offer because "computer says so" and has no idea that you're going to be at 1.15x in a few days? Isn't there a possibility that a week from now when they go to set up the offer they realize that it's only 4% and they change it - or change it after you wait to get it and then point this out to them? In short - HR may be screwing the pooch. And why would this SVP know the intricacies of your pay changes? Hint - they probably don't.
And I'd ignore the criticisms of you not being a team player - you've been doing a position without a raise for almost a year, waiting patiently and trusting your employer to do the right thing. That has team player written all over it
You were completely up front about what it would take for you to move to the new role - they shouldn't be surprised or butthurt when you say no if they fail to deliver.
But again, I don't think you should be upset of feel that they are intentionally trying to lowball you. I think there's a strong possibility that they don't know they are lowballing you - because HR sucks
Semi-random tangent, but there is a great Family Guy episode where they are doing Star Wars and the flaws in the Death Star which some view as a plot hole, are well know, but by the crew of the Death Star, but aren't being fixed due to budget cuts.
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
Do you have another job that pays 1.2x or more ? is it easy to find someone else for 1.2x or less ?
Thanks!
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
OP, Sounds like you are a talented guy and their go to guy but they do not want to pay you for your talents. I would look elsewhere. As an old friend of mine used to say: "You always have to have another option".
Dave
Dave
"Reality always wins, your only job is to get in touch with it." Wilfred Bion
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
+1Normchad wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:35 pm Imagine how this thread would read if it was written from the SVPs perspective.
SVP: I’ve got a great kid under my wing. I already promoted him once this year. He’s doing great. I saw a plum new opportunity open up, and I offered to him. So 2 promotions in 1 year. I went out in a limb for this one, because I believe in them. At first, they flatly refused the offer, because it wasn’t in their “career vision”. Then after discussing a bit, I think they’d begrudgingly take it if we called them “director”….
I like this guy, I really do. But I’m turned off by this apparent “me first” attitude. I’m sure they can do the job. But I’ve got others that can do the job as well, and they just seem more like “team players” to me.
If I can somehow agree to their wishes, I don’t even know if I should. They haven’t really mastered the new role they’ve only been in for a short while. But given their response, I’m really doubtful they won’t just jump ship in a year anyway. Or another way, I’m going out if my way to look after them, and they’re being difficult. Maybe I sized them up wrong. I can’t imagine what they’ll act like once they’ve got the job.
Money follows performance, so I read OP's post the same way. The best approach for OP is take the promotion, be a little humble, grateful and eager that management is including OP in their plans and then go knock the ball out of the park. There is a big difference in job skills between being part of the team and being the leader of a new job function, so no one can be sure how it will work out. The demand for way more compensation before performance in the new role is proven is likely to sound ungrateful and immature to management, the opposite of what the characteristics they want in the new position.
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Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
I have always said "yes". Some promotions were 10%, some were more. At the director level, at my company, there were other long-term benefits that made even a 10% raise worthwhile. Such as RSUs, new tax-deferred salary options, etc. Additionally, the skillset that I grew at that level was worth more than just a salary and made me more competitive for outside offers.
If it were me, I'd take it and if I really hated the value proposition (e.g. "I only got a 20% raise and I work 30 more hours a week and the stress is 60% higher"), why not go to a new company after?
Just my two cents. I'm more agreeable than you based on the writing, if I had an SVP really pushing for me, I'd also think about not burning that bridge with eeking out every last dollar. I think people respect negotiations, but if you are unreasonable to the point of something that is so out of line, they may think your perspective is a little off.
If it were me, I'd take it and if I really hated the value proposition (e.g. "I only got a 20% raise and I work 30 more hours a week and the stress is 60% higher"), why not go to a new company after?
Just my two cents. I'm more agreeable than you based on the writing, if I had an SVP really pushing for me, I'd also think about not burning that bridge with eeking out every last dollar. I think people respect negotiations, but if you are unreasonable to the point of something that is so out of line, they may think your perspective is a little off.
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
I thought the way you put it is very interesting: "DESIGNED to slow comp growth".fortunefavored wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:37 pmThat's what they count on. The vast majority of people WON'T jump.. so in aggregate.. that is how they are controlling headcount costs at a macro level.Patzer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:25 pmSadly, I think you are correct. I don't really want to leave though. I want to keep doing work I love and get paid correctly for it.fortunefavored wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:59 pm Agreed with everyone else.. more than a 10-15% raise in a single jump is very very difficult to get past HR. What can happen is that puts you into the compensation range of 85% of the typical director.. then you will get multiple, outsized raises going forward to catch you up to 100%. But that could take a couple of cycles.
Megacorp compensation structures are DESIGNED to slow compensation growth. That is literally the point of why they are so rigid. For most companies, this is how they can project their EPS confidently going forward, etc. Headcount is their #1 expense.
The fastest way to more money is to take the job/title and go interview some where else and make 50% more right off the bat.
If you're a superstar (top 1-3% of performers in the company) - they WILL counter offer your 50% external offer.. but only when you have that offer in writing.
Makes sense to me:
- On most services companies Headcount is a relevant cost
- Most companies have the target to grow profits
- Maintaining HC costs under control (or even reducing in REAL terms) within reasonable retention seems like HRs core functions
It is a sensitive matter since it's people's income. Objectively, it makes a lot of sense for a business to treat costs like that.
I wonder how many HR functions are aware of the real cost of attrition and new talent aquisition (specially in a market with more job opening's than unemployed like 2021's) and compare it to what they manage to save by making internal raises super rigid.
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Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
HR certainly builds in attrition rates and recruiting costs.. but they pivot very slowly (as you note, 2021 is different.. I doubt most megacorps have adjusted yet) and at a micro level it obviously blows up pretty regularly. If there is a core team of 5 geniuses.. and 3 of them quit.. that has an outsized impact. But it's tough to manage a 25,000+ person company at that level, so they just assume it gets absorbed in the noise (even if extremely painful for that particular department!)danbdzs wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:55 pmI thought the way you put it is very interesting: "DESIGNED to slow comp growth".fortunefavored wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:37 pmThat's what they count on. The vast majority of people WON'T jump.. so in aggregate.. that is how they are controlling headcount costs at a macro level.Patzer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:25 pmSadly, I think you are correct. I don't really want to leave though. I want to keep doing work I love and get paid correctly for it.fortunefavored wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:59 pm Agreed with everyone else.. more than a 10-15% raise in a single jump is very very difficult to get past HR. What can happen is that puts you into the compensation range of 85% of the typical director.. then you will get multiple, outsized raises going forward to catch you up to 100%. But that could take a couple of cycles.
Megacorp compensation structures are DESIGNED to slow compensation growth. That is literally the point of why they are so rigid. For most companies, this is how they can project their EPS confidently going forward, etc. Headcount is their #1 expense.
The fastest way to more money is to take the job/title and go interview some where else and make 50% more right off the bat.
If you're a superstar (top 1-3% of performers in the company) - they WILL counter offer your 50% external offer.. but only when you have that offer in writing.
Makes sense to me:
- On most services companies Headcount is a relevant cost
- Most companies have the target to grow profits
- Maintaining HC costs under control (or even reducing in REAL terms) within reasonable retention seems like HRs core functions
It is a sensitive matter since it's people's income. Objectively, it makes a lot of sense for a business to treat costs like that.
I wonder how many HR functions are aware of the real cost of attrition and new talent aquisition (specially in a market with more job opening's than unemployed like 2021's) and compare it to what they manage to save by making internal raises super rigid.
The good news for superstars is that there are always exceptions.. you just need to be a superstar (which most people aren't, so not sure how practical the advice is.. although bogleheads tend to be way above average
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Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
So if I’m reading this correctly, they are giving you a fake title and a raise for a job that actually pays less than what you make now? My guess is your reputation won’t be “rock solid” and may risk the fast track to director if you say no. But maybe not...Patzer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:00 pm I am an manager and currently make X. I took a promotion quite some time ago, and am only going to finally get the raise in September to move up to 1.15X. I am doing well and on the path to become a Director and make 1.45-1.6X within 3 years if I stay the course, because I have a rock solid reputation.
A SVP asked to meet with me and asked me to run a new department we are creating. The nature of this department is that it will be lower paying.
I laid out my current career path, and why it didn't really make sense for me to take on the challenge.
We discussed it and we agreed that I would be a good fit to lead the department, but that the title would have to be a Director level title and come with Director level pay in order for it to be a good career move for me.
They agreed, and frankly, I thought they would come back with something like 1.35X and I would have to negotiate up to 1.45X. Enough to make it worth it.
I hear that the offer that is being prepared is for 1.2X. Obviously, I am going to say no to that.
My question is, do I try to intervene now, and send them an email reminding them of my salary expectations, or do I wait until they present the terrible offer.
Reaching out to remind them of my salary expectations might be seen as too aggressive... but trying to negotiate up from 1.2X to 1.45X is going to be very hard.
Good luck in negotiations.
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
When the offer comes, just counter it respectfully with some sensible justification. You won't burn any bridges if you're respectful and straightforward. Don't threaten to reject it, just ask for what you believe is fair.
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Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
1. Wait for the offer (hearing about this stuff through the grapevine stinks of snooping).
2. If it's as you expect, then do not be quick to respond (build some tension without saying a word.. 8 business hours is enough, more can get rude).
3. When you do reply, emphasize that you are very excited about the opportunity and appreciated the one one conversation; reference a specific aspect of the conversation that was especially valuable to you (make it personal). Also note a particular aspect of the job you are looking forward to (the deal is almost done!) 4. Note that the offer represents a raise of 4.3% (use no adjectives, just facts).
5. Ask whether the company can raise the offer so that it's a ~15% or 20% increase (be specific and reasonable).
6. Express appreciation for any consideration to raising the offer amount.
This is likely how I would handle.
Finally, I have made a number of hires at a megacorp. Bringing another offer to me is a turn off.. ask for what you want and if you don't get it , stay or go..
2. If it's as you expect, then do not be quick to respond (build some tension without saying a word.. 8 business hours is enough, more can get rude).
3. When you do reply, emphasize that you are very excited about the opportunity and appreciated the one one conversation; reference a specific aspect of the conversation that was especially valuable to you (make it personal). Also note a particular aspect of the job you are looking forward to (the deal is almost done!) 4. Note that the offer represents a raise of 4.3% (use no adjectives, just facts).
5. Ask whether the company can raise the offer so that it's a ~15% or 20% increase (be specific and reasonable).
6. Express appreciation for any consideration to raising the offer amount.
This is likely how I would handle.
Finally, I have made a number of hires at a megacorp. Bringing another offer to me is a turn off.. ask for what you want and if you don't get it , stay or go..
Financologist
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
Thank you for the advice.Financologist wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:16 am 1. Wait for the offer (hearing about this stuff through the grapevine stinks of snooping).
2. If it's as you expect, then do not be quick to respond (build some tension without saying a word.. 8 business hours is enough, more can get rude).
3. When you do reply, emphasize that you are very excited about the opportunity and appreciated the one one conversation; reference a specific aspect of the conversation that was especially valuable to you (make it personal). Also note a particular aspect of the job you are looking forward to (the deal is almost done!) 4. Note that the offer represents a raise of 4.3% (use no adjectives, just facts).
5. Ask whether the company can raise the offer so that it's a ~15% or 20% increase (be specific and reasonable).
6. Express appreciation for any consideration to raising the offer amount.
This is likely how I would handle.
Finally, I have made a number of hires at a megacorp. Bringing another offer to me is a turn off.. ask for what you want and if you don't get it , stay or go..
I would love it if you could elaborate on bullet point #2.
A lot of salary negotiation advice aligns with what you said, which is to say nothing meaningful when you receive the offer, other than thanks and let me think about it. I would like to understand why that advice is so common.
What is problematic about trying to do 3-6 immediately, and then asking for a day to think about it if they say no?
Is that advice, because people can't calmly negotiate in the moment, and so it is maybe not the most optimal tactic, but it is the one that works best to reduce emotions? Or is it really the way to create the strongest position?
I have many years of hiring experience, and when someone needs to think for a day(or over the weekend on a Friday), they often actually just accept the offer as is, or maybe I need to give them an extra 5% salary. So, it's not a red flag that I need to come back with more when I hear that, and it doesn't build any tension for me.
When people take 2 business days or more, it does build tension, but I also start to sour on them, because whenever they do come back, their demands are usually unreasonable, and so by the time someone is in their 3rd or 4th day before getting back to me, I am already mentally moving on to the next candidate.
I say this to propose that the moment of the offer is probably the peak of the hiring manager's excitement about the candidate and the moment with the most leverage.
Maybe the counterargument is that the hiring manager is almost most fixed to the offer at that moment, and it's harder to move them off it.
My personal experience as a hiring manager doesn't reflect that though, but I may be atypical. I respect someone that just tells me what they need to make it work, and I can tell them if it is feasible. I had someone a few months back that was like, the offer is good, but I want a 10% signing bonus(the position didn't offer any signing bonus). I asked them if they got that if they would be comfortable signing that day, and when they said yes, I gave it to them on the spot. A 10% one off charge was nothing compared to the cost of continuing to try to find another candidate for the role.
I am laying all this out, because I am genuinely curious about your experience, and how I can most effectively negotiate this.
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Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
Patzer wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 4:07 amThank you for the advice.Financologist wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:16 am 1. Wait for the offer (hearing about this stuff through the grapevine stinks of snooping).
2. If it's as you expect, then do not be quick to respond (build some tension without saying a word.. 8 business hours is enough, more can get rude).
3. When you do reply, emphasize that you are very excited about the opportunity and appreciated the one one conversation; reference a specific aspect of the conversation that was especially valuable to you (make it personal). Also note a particular aspect of the job you are looking forward to (the deal is almost done!) 4. Note that the offer represents a raise of 4.3% (use no adjectives, just facts).
5. Ask whether the company can raise the offer so that it's a ~15% or 20% increase (be specific and reasonable).
6. Express appreciation for any consideration to raising the offer amount.
This is likely how I would handle.
Finally, I have made a number of hires at a megacorp. Bringing another offer to me is a turn off.. ask for what you want and if you don't get it , stay or go..
I would love it if you could elaborate on bullet point #2.
A lot of salary negotiation advice aligns with what you said, which is to say nothing meaningful when you receive the offer, other than thanks and let me think about it. I would like to understand why that advice is so common.
What is problematic about trying to do 3-6 immediately, and then asking for a day to think about it if they say no?
Is that advice, because people can't calmly negotiate in the moment, and so it is maybe not the most optimal tactic, but it is the one that works best to reduce emotions? Or is it really the way to create the strongest position?
I have many years of hiring experience, and when someone needs to think for a day(or over the weekend on a Friday), they often actually just accept the offer as is, or maybe I need to give them an extra 5% salary. So, it's not a red flag that I need to come back with more when I hear that, and it doesn't build any tension for me.
When people take 2 business days or more, it does build tension, but I also start to sour on them, because whenever they do come back, their demands are usually unreasonable, and so by the time someone is in their 3rd or 4th day before getting back to me, I am already mentally moving on to the next candidate.
I say this to propose that the moment of the offer is probably the peak of the hiring manager's excitement about the candidate and the moment with the most leverage.
Maybe the counterargument is that the hiring manager is almost most fixed to the offer at that moment, and it's harder to move them off it.
My personal experience as a hiring manager doesn't reflect that though, but I may be atypical. I respect someone that just tells me what they need to make it work, and I can tell them if it is feasible. I had someone a few months back that was like, the offer is good, but I want a 10% signing bonus(the position didn't offer any signing bonus). I asked them if they got that if they would be comfortable signing that day, and when they said yes, I gave it to them on the spot. A 10% one off charge was nothing compared to the cost of continuing to try to find another candidate for the role.
I am laying all this out, because I am genuinely curious about your experience, and how I can most effectively negotiate this.
Regarding item 2, I can only imagine The person offering you a 4.3% raise understands this is a poor offer that will disappoint you. By waiting a little while you allow that to sink in a little further. When you revert with gratitude aimed at him and a reasonable request aimed at the company... now it's you and this person against the company advocating for an appropriate offer.
Good luck
Financologist
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Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
Financologist makes sense. I would just like to mention that, while putting yourself in manager’s shoes, differentiate between hiring manager and promoting manager. IMO they’re not identical mindsets and how they would react to negotiation.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
Just wanted to thank OP for starting this thread, and the seasoned BHs for providing their perspective. The wisdom in this thread -- and on the forum in general -- is truly invaluable.
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Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
+1. These kinda discussions are so important, but so fuzzy and vague given it's a 'taboo' topicjaqenhghar wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:32 pm Just wanted to thank OP for starting this thread, and the seasoned BHs for providing their perspective. The wisdom in this thread -- and on the forum in general -- is truly invaluable.
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ |
“How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
If you take it, since the company seems to think it will fail, negotiate for a minimum fixed term of employment and a big severance package.
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
Here is my two cents:
1) You were promoted last year with no raise and you are about to get a 15% raise a year later. First of all, that is BS.
2) You are getting another promotion and are expected to lead a new high risk department with a 4.3% raise? That is BS x2.
From reading the tea leaves here, the min should be +20% on 1.15x = 1.38x
If they come back with anything below 1.38x, walk them through the math of 1.15 x 1.2 = 1.38 and tell them that anything less is an insult to your loyalty. Remind them that the job market is on fire and that you have never once considered leaving even with the 1yr delay in salary increase. But now for the first time in your career you are really second guessing if you are being properly compensated. I would also challenge them to tell you if 1.2x is even close the median / average Director level compensation at the company. And if its indeed in the bottom quartile, then what kind of message are they trying to send you about how they value your worth. Basically push as hard as you can, in a polite and professional manner. Also remind them that you are the most qualified internal candidate to lead this department, etc.
Best case scenario, they go to 1.38x. I assume you would be happy with that?
Worst case scenario, they don't budge - then you take the 1.2x or wherever you end up, update your LinkedIn, and then look for an external offer at 2x. If you get such an offer, then you take it back to your company and say your ask just went from 1.38x to 2x. Then be prepared to leave. This is the greatest job market in a generation - take advantage of it !!
Good luck
1) You were promoted last year with no raise and you are about to get a 15% raise a year later. First of all, that is BS.
2) You are getting another promotion and are expected to lead a new high risk department with a 4.3% raise? That is BS x2.
From reading the tea leaves here, the min should be +20% on 1.15x = 1.38x
If they come back with anything below 1.38x, walk them through the math of 1.15 x 1.2 = 1.38 and tell them that anything less is an insult to your loyalty. Remind them that the job market is on fire and that you have never once considered leaving even with the 1yr delay in salary increase. But now for the first time in your career you are really second guessing if you are being properly compensated. I would also challenge them to tell you if 1.2x is even close the median / average Director level compensation at the company. And if its indeed in the bottom quartile, then what kind of message are they trying to send you about how they value your worth. Basically push as hard as you can, in a polite and professional manner. Also remind them that you are the most qualified internal candidate to lead this department, etc.
Best case scenario, they go to 1.38x. I assume you would be happy with that?
Worst case scenario, they don't budge - then you take the 1.2x or wherever you end up, update your LinkedIn, and then look for an external offer at 2x. If you get such an offer, then you take it back to your company and say your ask just went from 1.38x to 2x. Then be prepared to leave. This is the greatest job market in a generation - take advantage of it !!
Good luck
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
OP, your situation reminded me of my wife’s recent salary negotiation when she took a very senior position in her organization. She had heard that the CEO was going to offer her a 5% salary bump. Being no fool, and armed with internal data, she made it known through indirect and numerous channels what were her salary expectations. Her communication/manipulation efforts succeeded. And she ended up receiving a 20% raise, only slightly lower than her aspiration.
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
OP keep it positive
If the offer ends up being lower my response would be something like:
“SVP you know I’m very excited about this opportunity and keep thinking about it’s potential and genuinely think I’m uniquely suited to lead it. Appreciate how you’ve recognized what I’ve shown performance wise so far in my time here and my plan would be to enter this role with the same work ethic.
However I am honestly a little thrown off by the offer. (Then proceed to walk through the math taking it to 1.38x)
If you think I’m worth 1.38x I would be excited to get this started immediately. If not i think it’s best to stay on my current track in z team. Please let me know if there’s anything else I can do or provide”
I’m the head of recruitment for a tech company and have years of agency background prior. In salary negotiations (and any other area of life) when people ask for something with any combination of excitement/positivity/humility (in addition to solid reasoning/merit behind it), they seem to get it
If the offer ends up being lower my response would be something like:
“SVP you know I’m very excited about this opportunity and keep thinking about it’s potential and genuinely think I’m uniquely suited to lead it. Appreciate how you’ve recognized what I’ve shown performance wise so far in my time here and my plan would be to enter this role with the same work ethic.
However I am honestly a little thrown off by the offer. (Then proceed to walk through the math taking it to 1.38x)
If you think I’m worth 1.38x I would be excited to get this started immediately. If not i think it’s best to stay on my current track in z team. Please let me know if there’s anything else I can do or provide”
I’m the head of recruitment for a tech company and have years of agency background prior. In salary negotiations (and any other area of life) when people ask for something with any combination of excitement/positivity/humility (in addition to solid reasoning/merit behind it), they seem to get it
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Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
That sounds like horrible company to work forJack FFR1846 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:06 pm I think it's time to reach out and see what else is out there. Going in with nothing, and saying you want anything more needs leverage. I suppose you could say that you're not willing to leave your current position for the money offered, but that could set you up for automatic pass over with future opportunities.
Do you know how this is handled with other promotions of others? I once worked at a company where the company policy was that nobody received raises when promotions occurred. Later, when the promoted person proved themselves, they then were given appropriate raises.
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
I would wait for the offer. Give a polite response like offered upthread and try to get to 1.25 at least with Dir bonus and equity which should be a good amount more than now. Maybe after a back and forth or two you ask to have your comp looked at again relative to other directors next cycle. Be prepared though—the other directors you surveyed—don’t ask them what they make now unless they are less than a year in that role. Ask them what they made when they were put into the dir role. Since you know what they make now you can estimate your salary trajectory at this place.
IMO time to shop a new gig is not now, it’s year from now at the next cycle when you have a director title in hand with a year's worth of experience. New employers would offer you very solidly in the director band minimally at that point (if you’re ready to leave if your current employer doesn’t make it right at that point).
IMO time to shop a new gig is not now, it’s year from now at the next cycle when you have a director title in hand with a year's worth of experience. New employers would offer you very solidly in the director band minimally at that point (if you’re ready to leave if your current employer doesn’t make it right at that point).
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Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
We have the winning post!demdeah26 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 6:51 am OP keep it positive
If the offer ends up being lower my response would be something like:
“SVP you know I’m very excited about this opportunity and keep thinking about it’s potential and genuinely think I’m uniquely suited to lead it. Appreciate how you’ve recognized what I’ve shown performance wise so far in my time here and my plan would be to enter this role with the same work ethic.
However I am honestly a little thrown off by the offer. (Then proceed to walk through the math taking it to 1.38x)
If you think I’m worth 1.38x I would be excited to get this started immediately. If not i think it’s best to stay on my current track in z team. Please let me know if there’s anything else I can do or provide”
I’m the head of recruitment for a tech company and have years of agency background prior. In salary negotiations (and any other area of life) when people ask for something with any combination of excitement/positivity/humility (in addition to solid reasoning/merit behind it), they seem to get it
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ |
“How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
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Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
My take from the OP the role is actually a step down the ladder, or at least off the path the OP wants to go, with a salary less than his current role. They gave the title and a raise to encourage the move because they want him to lead this team.grkmec wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:49 pm Here is my two cents:
1) You were promoted last year with no raise and you are about to get a 15% raise a year later. First of all, that is BS.
2) You are getting another promotion and are expected to lead a new high risk department with a 4.3% raise? That is BS x2.
From reading the tea leaves here, the min should be +20% on 1.15x = 1.38x
If they come back with anything below 1.38x, walk them through the math of 1.15 x 1.2 = 1.38 and tell them that anything less is an insult to your loyalty. Remind them that the job market is on fire and that you have never once considered leaving even with the 1yr delay in salary increase. But now for the first time in your career you are really second guessing if you are being properly compensated. I would also challenge them to tell you if 1.2x is even close the median / average Director level compensation at the company. And if its indeed in the bottom quartile, then what kind of message are they trying to send you about how they value your worth. Basically push as hard as you can, in a polite and professional manner. Also remind them that you are the most qualified internal candidate to lead this department, etc.
Best case scenario, they go to 1.38x. I assume you would be happy with that?
Worst case scenario, they don't budge - then you take the 1.2x or wherever you end up, update your LinkedIn, and then look for an external offer at 2x. If you get such an offer, then you take it back to your company and say your ask just went from 1.38x to 2x. Then be prepared to leave. This is the greatest job market in a generation - take advantage of it !!
Good luck
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Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
I think this is a good talk track for a conversation with a recruiter who is paid specifically to recruit. Having the conversation with the SVP or hiring manager is different and more personal.demdeah26 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 6:51 am OP keep it positive
If the offer ends up being lower my response would be something like:
“SVP you know I’m very excited about this opportunity and keep thinking about it’s potential and genuinely think I’m uniquely suited to lead it. Appreciate how you’ve recognized what I’ve shown performance wise so far in my time here and my plan would be to enter this role with the same work ethic.
However I am honestly a little thrown off by the offer. (Then proceed to walk through the math taking it to 1.38x)
If you think I’m worth 1.38x I would be excited to get this started immediately. If not i think it’s best to stay on my current track in z team. Please let me know if there’s anything else I can do or provide”
I’m the head of recruitment for a tech company and have years of agency background prior. In salary negotiations (and any other area of life) when people ask for something with any combination of excitement/positivity/humility (in addition to solid reasoning/merit behind it), they seem to get it
Appreciate your perspective, but in OP's situation, after a personal conversation with the SVP, I don't recommend this sort of remark.
"If you think I’m worth 1.38x I would be excited to get this started immediately."
The SVP obviously respects OP. Forcing him to put a number on it is not the idea. Letting him know you love the opportunity and respectfully requesting his help getting you the raise you want is the path here.
1) Ask for the raise you want. 2)Take the promotion no matter what. 3)You can always leave afterwards if you think the company isn't paying you appropriately.
Financologist
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
OP, how did the discussions go?
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
I'll throw in my 2 cents.
Back in 2004 I was offered a director of sales position in my company by one of the owners. I thought about it for about a second before I told him to pound sand. Stayed in the same position I have today (National Sales Executive) and was way more successful and made more $$$ than I would have in a failed sales management position. I can not manage other people.
My refusal worked out for the best for me and the company.
Fast forward to 2021, after a covid-reaction 10 month furlough, I agreed to come back at a pay scale way below what I earned previously based on sales revenue, but with a nice up-front payment I demanded to cover commissions earned but not paid.
I'm not 100% happy, but I'm doing it for now and planning my departure in the not too distant future. And homey don't work Friday afternoons any more or kill himself chasing down every potential dollar.
Cheapa$$ offers have consequences.
Back in 2004 I was offered a director of sales position in my company by one of the owners. I thought about it for about a second before I told him to pound sand. Stayed in the same position I have today (National Sales Executive) and was way more successful and made more $$$ than I would have in a failed sales management position. I can not manage other people.
My refusal worked out for the best for me and the company.
Fast forward to 2021, after a covid-reaction 10 month furlough, I agreed to come back at a pay scale way below what I earned previously based on sales revenue, but with a nice up-front payment I demanded to cover commissions earned but not paid.
I'm not 100% happy, but I'm doing it for now and planning my departure in the not too distant future. And homey don't work Friday afternoons any more or kill himself chasing down every potential dollar.
Cheapa$$ offers have consequences.
Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
Checking in to see how things went?
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Re: How to Deal with Incoming Low Ball Promotion Offer
Wait until you have an official offer....
You can always turn it down.
You can always turn it down.