Updating will & trust; lawyer retired

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oyster99
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Updating will & trust; lawyer retired

Post by oyster99 »

I had a will, living revocable trust, and financial+medical POA prepared by an estate attorney about 6 years ago, about 150 printed pages total. The estate attorney has retired and relocated to a different state, but I really did not have any contact with him after I signed the original document package. By my estimation, the vast majority of those 150 pages will never be relevant to me (I believe the attorney generates these document packages with a software package with a state-specific election). Anyway, I need to make some changes.

I have 2 layers of questions about this.

First, I want to change the beneficiaries and successor executor/trustee in the next month or so. My understanding is estate lawyers generally don't like working with documents prepared by another attorney, and finding a new one (just for a year or so; see next item) doesn't seem worthwhile. So I was planning to just do this myself. What's the best way to do these changes, short of red-lining the original document and creating a summary page of all the changes and getting that notarized?

Second, I expect to relocate to another state in the next few years. There are a few dozen pages within the 150 total pages of my current document package that reference state-specific statutes or programs. Can that be updated simply with a 1-page DIY addendum to my document package by saying all references to state#1 statutes or programs are replaced with state#2's equivalent as of date mm/dd/yyyy? I suppose by default, if there is no equivalent in state#2, and I am residing in state#2, that clause of the documents just becomes null and void. Or other recommendations on how to approach this?
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RickBoglehead
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Re: Updating will & trust; lawyer retired

Post by RickBoglehead »

IANAL

A trust can be amended with ... amendments. I have a family member with at least 4 of them. You can easily specify the changes in beneficiaries and trustees via amendments, just make sure that in the case of trustees that if the original successor trustee had to sign something accepting the role, you get them to sign something relinquishing the role.

As far as switching states - you likely need to start over. Otherwise it's a mess.
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bsteiner
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Re: Updating will & trust; lawyer retired

Post by bsteiner »

oyster99 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:59 pm I had a will, living revocable trust, and financial+medical POA prepared by an estate attorney about 6 years ago, about 150 printed pages total. The estate attorney has retired and relocated to a different state, but I really did not have any contact with him after I signed the original document package. By my estimation, the vast majority of those 150 pages will never be relevant to me (I believe the attorney generates these document packages with a software package with a state-specific election). Anyway, I need to make some changes.

I have 2 layers of questions about this.

First, I want to change the beneficiaries and successor executor/trustee in the next month or so. My understanding is estate lawyers generally don't like working with documents prepared by another attorney, and finding a new one (just for a year or so; see next item) doesn't seem worthwhile. So I was planning to just do this myself. What's the best way to do these changes, short of red-lining the original document and creating a summary page of all the changes and getting that notarized?

Second, I expect to relocate to another state in the next few years. There are a few dozen pages within the 150 total pages of my current document package that reference state-specific statutes or programs. Can that be updated simply with a 1-page DIY addendum to my document package by saying all references to state#1 statutes or programs are replaced with state#2's equivalent as of date mm/dd/yyyy? I suppose by default, if there is no equivalent in state#2, and I am residing in state#2, that clause of the documents just becomes null and void. Or other recommendations on how to approach this?
If they're 150 pages, I would share your concern as to how they were generated.

I generally prefer to do a new Will than a Codicil (or an amended and restated revocable trust rather than an amendment to a revocable trust). That calls less attention to the changes. It ensures that everything else is current and makes sense. It also avoids the possibility that when you change one thing, it requires something else to be changed, but you missed the other thing. However, if all you're changing is executors and trustees, and if the changes in the bequests are minor, you could probably do it by Codicil to the Will and by amendment to the revocable trust. But in this case, given your concern as to how they were generated, you might want to consider whether you should have new documents prepared.

You could amend the trust by saying that the words "State A" are deleted in each place where they appear, and the words "State B" are substituted in their place. However, you might want to check whether, as a result of moving from one state to another, any other changes would be indicated. You might also consider whether revocable trusts are necessary in your new state.
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celia
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Re: Updating will & trust; lawyer retired

Post by celia »

Don’t mark up the originals. They are legal documents! You might accidentally void the entire thing or eventually not be able to tell the changes made this year in Amendment #1 compared to changes made in the future by Amendments #2 or #3.

The ‘update’ is a separate document titled ‘Amendment #1 of <trust name>‘. It should probably be created by a lawyer since valid amendments are supposed to contain certain things. For example, the Amendment needs to reference the clause in the trust that says you have the right to change it. It should also list the original trust name and date along with all other previous amendments.

ALL Amendments should be kept together with the trust since one amendment could possibly reference another amendment or become void while the others stay in effect.

Once you get to another state and find a lawyer to help you, he/she may want to re-write the trust which becomes a ‘Restatement’ instead of an Amendment. The restatement says the original trust and amendments are now being entirely replaced by Restatement #1. (The restatement can also have later amendments.). The purpose of this is to avoid changing the titling of all your assets again since you can keep the original trust name and date.

If all you are changing right now is people’s names, I suggest you look for a sample amendment online for your state.
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celia
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Re: Updating will & trust; lawyer retired

Post by celia »

bsteiner wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:05 pm If they're 150 pages, I would share your concern as to how they were generated.
Why would you be concerned about how the documents were generated? Our trust is that long. If the lawyer DIDN’T use software, the cost would be prohibitive and likely have several errors.

Even our original trust created 30 years ago was generated with software.

The main problem I have with a 150-page trust is the time it takes to read it and write down my questions. I’m certainly not going to sign a legal document I didn’t read.
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Topic Author
oyster99
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Re: Updating will & trust; lawyer retired

Post by oyster99 »

bsteiner wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:05 pm
If they're 150 pages, I would share your concern as to how they were generated.

I generally prefer to do a new Will than a Codicil (or an amended and restated revocable trust rather than an amendment to a revocable trust). That calls less attention to the changes. It ensures that everything else is current and makes sense. It also avoids the possibility that when you change one thing, it requires something else to be changed, but you missed the other thing. However, if all you're changing is executors and trustees, and if the changes in the bequests are minor, you could probably do it by Codicil to the Will and by amendment to the revocable trust. But in this case, given your concern as to how they were generated, you might want to consider whether you should have new documents prepared.

You could amend the trust by saying that the words "State A" are deleted in each place where they appear, and the words "State B" are substituted in their place. However, you might want to check whether, as a result of moving from one state to another, any other changes would be indicated. You might also consider whether revocable trusts are necessary in your new state.
Thanks. I found some notes I took from back when I had these documents prepared. The attorney said he used software from WealthCounsel.com. I presume it's fairly common for an estate attorney to use prepared templates of some type, but no idea if Wealthcounsel is considered good, bad, or indifferent, by other attorneys.

I could be wrong about this but it sounded like the software operates similar to tax software and first he enters some individual info about me after a brief interview, selects my state of residence (apparently the software substitutes the statutory cites based on state of residence), hits "go" and out pops a revocable trust, will, POAs, etc.

The revocable trust document is about 60 pages, the will about 10 pages, the POA is about 25 pages for financial and about 10 for medical, and the rest is a bunch of shorter summaries and blank schedules and explanations. Since it was generated by software, it includes a lot of general-purpose language about things that are unlikely to be applicable to me, such as business ownership, partnerships, special needs beneficiaries, beneficiaries under 18, mineral rights, types of securities and other financial transactions and investments I'm unlikely to ever partake in, etc. I don't suppose it hurts anything to have them in there, but it adds a lot of noise to fish through when trying to find something.

So let's say hypothetically that I had new documents drawn up. And of course when you choose an estate attorney you have no idea what their final document package will be (or whether it will be better or worse than the prior documents), but maybe a new package would be significantly shorter and targeted.

What happens to my prior will and trust, and the assets that are titled in the current trust? For example, can a completely new trust have exactly the same name as the old one, so that no asset undo/redo titling needs to be done?

Can I get a trust prepared for a state I don't yet reside in but expect to, and same question about the name (can it have exactly the same name as the prior trust from a different state)?
4nursebee
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Re: Updating will & trust; lawyer retired

Post by 4nursebee »

We just updated our wills on legal zoom. They had us just update info from 10 years ago. It was cheaper since they did the originals.
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afan
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Re: Updating will & trust; lawyer retired

Post by afan »

If you already have your assets in your trust, that is a very good reason to keep it, even if you might not have gone the trust route in your new state.

When you restate it the RLT remains the same trust with different provisions.

This is a good reason not to go with a solo operation if you are expecting to be around for a while. Had you used a larger firm, you probably could have followed up with another member after your lawyer retired.

Not a guarantee, since some firms have dropped their estate planning business altogether. I know one case where the retiring lawyer returned all the notes and documents to clients because the firm had no estate planning people left. Apparently he tried to find other firms that would accept his entire book of clients and found no takers.

You are going to need to go over everything when you move to a different state. At the least, your new lawyer would have to check that the substantive provisions still work for the new state. Federal laws have changed since you did your last round of planning and that might require updates.

I can understand your reluctance to go through a full rewrite of your plans when you know you will have to review them again in a few years. I would be nervous about changing something without a lawyer's advice because I don't know what I don't know. If the timetable is too short to at least get an attorney to walk you through the process of making the changes I suppose you have no choice.
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valleyrock
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Re: Updating will & trust; lawyer retired

Post by valleyrock »

A comment and a question. (IANAL)

The comment, probably redundant, is that no matter what gets done (amendments or full replacement, etc.), everything should be signed with two witnesses and notarized.

Question is about trusts. Is there a thread on types of trusts, irrevocable versus revocable, and trusts which are only formed as stipulated by a will (to provide for minor children, for example)? I have the latter set up, but have no idea about the other ins and outs, tax effects, etc.

On this specific question here on this thread, if paying an attorney is a small fraction of the size of the estate and/or trust, the peace of mind generated by using an attorney might be worth it.

How to find an estate attorney to do this? We found ours by contacting local banks that hold trusts to get a list of attorneys with appropriate experience. Not all attorneys who handle estates know about trusts.
J295
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Re: Updating will & trust; lawyer retired

Post by J295 »

Retired lawyer.

1. Have a lawyer in state 1 facilitate the changes you desire. Often retired lawyers have their client matters handled by others in their firm, is that not an option here?

2. When you arrive in state 2, find a lawyer there to help you evaluate next steps.
jebmke
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Re: Updating will & trust; lawyer retired

Post by jebmke »

J295 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:52 am 1. Have a lawyer in state 1 facilitate the changes you desire. Often retired lawyers have their client matters handled by others in their firm, is that not an option here?
This is why I never look at one-man operations or firms with no depth.
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chazas
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Re: Updating will & trust; lawyer retired

Post by chazas »

Just hire a lawyer. There are plenty of competent T&E lawyers. There’s a reason we went to law school.
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