Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this wise?

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VanGar+Goyle
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by VanGar+Goyle »

teuton33 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:14 pm My father is 78 years old. He remarried to someone much younger (55). They have been together for 10 years. He’s leaving the house valued at ~1m in a HCOL to the new spouse as well as 300-400k of retirement accounts. The rest of his accounts (300k in Roth and 1.2m in taxable) he intends to leave to my sister and I split 50/50.

He intends to have this coordinated purely through designated beneficiaries on the various accounts. He has no plans for a will or anything else like that.

Is this a sound strategy?
It may be sound if that is all his assets. Most of it would avoid the expense and delay of probate.
Are you concerned about other things, like property inside the house, cars, boats, family photos or heirlooms?
Perhaps he can draft a non-binding letter of instructions for these sentimental objects, specially if the new wife may not value them.
Well, you pay a little bit, we're a little bit tough. | You pay very much, very much tough. | You pay a too much, we're too much a tough. | How much you pay? ... Well, then we're plenty tough. - Marx
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by cbeck »

If the estate is as uncomplicated as the post indicates, then I don't see why relying on TOD designations wouldn't be sufficient. The wife should probably be co-owner of the house, but in most states she would probably get the house anyway. Yes, there are all sorts of possible complications with contingent beneficiaries, etc., but if those do not apply to the case at hand, then it doesn't matter.

Heirs and disappointed non-heirs may indeed behave badly, but it doesn't look like a TOD is any more contestable than a will, maybe less so since it happens without notification to anybody other than the beneficiary.

As to why not have a will anyway, well, one reason not to have a will is if the family in question do not live in the US and haven't for many years. Going through probate from abroad seems like adding a lot of complication unnecessarily.

I don't have a will. All of my assets are in TOD accounts. No property, no children, and no contingent beneficiaries, since if my wife doesn't survive me as expected, I don't care.
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by bsteiner »

VanGar+Goyle wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:12 am
teuton33 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:14 pm My father is 78 years old. He remarried to someone much younger (55). They have been together for 10 years. He’s leaving the house valued at ~1m in a HCOL to the new spouse as well as 300-400k of retirement accounts. The rest of his accounts (300k in Roth and 1.2m in taxable) he intends to leave to my sister and I split 50/50.

He intends to have this coordinated purely through designated beneficiaries on the various accounts. He has no plans for a will or anything else like that.

Is this a sound strategy?
It may be sound if that is all his assets. Most of it would avoid the expense and delay of probate.
Are you concerned about other things, like property inside the house, cars, boats, family photos or heirlooms?
Perhaps he can draft a non-binding letter of instructions for these sentimental objects, specially if the new wife may not value them.
Most of it? You probate the Will, not the assets. Ignoring the small estate procedures in some states, the forms are the same for a $100,000 estate as for a $100 million estate. Absent a contest, it doesn't take long to probate a Will, except that the courts have been temporarily slowed down due to the pandemic.
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Post by HanSolo »

Luckywon wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:48 am
HanSolo wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:50 am I asked if my mom's account had a TOD/POD. She said she can't release any information about the account except to the officially-appointed Executor.
Did it end up that you were actually a TOD/POD beneficiary? I'm wondering whether the complete answer was that she could not release any information about the account except to the executive or a TOD/POD beneficiary.
It's been a few months and I haven't pursued it yet. It would cost me more to travel to her state than I would obtain from any assets that may be there. I may look into it if/when I travel there in the future.

As for what the bank manager told me, I'm only sharing the information about what happened to me, as others may run into the same. If there's something to confirm your speculation, that might be interesting.
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VanGar+Goyle
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by VanGar+Goyle »

bsteiner wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:40 pm
VanGar+Goyle wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:12 am
teuton33 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:14 pm My father is 78 years old. He remarried to someone much younger (55). They have been together for 10 years. He’s leaving the house valued at ~1m in a HCOL to the new spouse as well as 300-400k of retirement accounts. The rest of his accounts (300k in Roth and 1.2m in taxable) he intends to leave to my sister and I split 50/50.

He intends to have this coordinated purely through designated beneficiaries on the various accounts. He has no plans for a will or anything else like that.

Is this a sound strategy?
It [ using designated beneficiaries ] may be sound if that is all his assets. Most of it [ using designated beneficiaries ] would avoid the expense and delay of probate.
Are you concerned about other things, like property inside the house, cars, boats, family photos or heirlooms?
Perhaps he can draft a non-binding letter of instructions for these sentimental objects, specially if the new wife may not value them.
Most of it? You probate the Will, not the assets. Ignoring the small estate procedures in some states, the forms are the same for a $100,000 estate as for a $100 million estate. Absent a contest, it doesn't take long to probate a Will, except that the courts have been temporarily slowed down due to the pandemic.
You may be right. I do not claim to be a tax attorney, but assume that the cost of probate in most states is related to the value of the assets.
How long does it take to probate a Will?
How long does it take to unfreeze all the assets covered by a Will?
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by bsteiner »

VanGar+Goyle wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:12 am ... I do not claim to be a tax attorney, but assume that the cost of probate in most states is related to the value of the assets.
How long does it take to probate a Will?
How long does it take to unfreeze all the assets covered by a Will?
Ignoring small estate procedures in some states, the cost to probate a Will is the same regardless of the size of the estate.

But for the backlog due to the pandemic, it usually takes a few weeks to probate a Will.

Executors have to make sure debts, expenses and taxes are provided for before making distributions. Usually by the time someone dies, the beneficiaries are no longer dependent on the decedent for support, so there's usually no urgency.
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by pennywise »

michaeljc70 wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:25 am As others have said, the main issues are personal belongings and if one of the expected beneficiaries dies before the father. For example, say the wife dies before the father and he doesn't change who gets the house in time. The wife's long lost cousin (or whoever her heirs could be) could get the house. Some brokerages allow more advanced beneficiary designations but some don't.
My husband and his brother took his widowed 90-YO mother to our estate planning attorney several years ago, as she was clearly declining mentally. The lawyer set up a trust with the two brothers as trustees, retitled the house and bank accounts and also created POA, health care surrogate and living will documents.

MIL was clear that she wanted everything "divided equally to my boys" but I still recall my husband coming home after one appointment and saying the lawyer had stumped all of them by asking what did mom want to happen to her estate if one of the brothers died before her? Nobody had considered that possibility-they all agreed the child or children of the deceased would inherit their dad's share.

Due to dementia and repeated injuries caused by her lack of ability to care for herself, within 6 months MIL was placed in assisted living where she remains today almost 6 years later. She will turn 98 in a couple of months and is now in a vegetative state on hospice care in the memory unit. Having all the documents in place to care for her has taken a burden off us that was unimaginable at the time but which is unfortunately all too common today with better medical care for the elderly.

As for the will, my brother in law was diagnosed a couple of years ago with terminal cancer and this spring we jointly agreed to simplify MIL's affairs by selling her house. In this market it sold fast and for close to a million dollars.

BIL died in June. Less future expenses for MIL's care, my niece will now inherit half of that amount.

None of us ever would have predicted that my MIL would still be alive at almost 100 albeit unable to move, speak, talk or comprehend anything while our much loved brother in law would be dead at 70 years old.

We all know the end of the story. But we can never know the timing or what twists and turns life will hold on the way there.

To the OP: tell your dad to quit being selfish and short sighted and get the will and care documents set up. Why is he deliberately trying to make life harder for those he says he loves, especially at a time when they will already be emotionally distraught by his loss whether it be through death or dire physical/mental decline and dependency?
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by reln »

teuton33 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:14 pm My father is 78 years old. He remarried to someone much younger (55). They have been together for 10 years. He’s leaving the house valued at ~1m in a HCOL to the new spouse as well as 300-400k of retirement accounts. The rest of his accounts (300k in Roth and 1.2m in taxable) he intends to leave to my sister and I split 50/50.

He intends to have this coordinated purely through designated beneficiaries on the various accounts. He has no plans for a will or anything else like that.

Is this a sound strategy?
A will would be nice to help guide y'all. But it's not necessary.
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

teuton33 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:14 pm Is this a sound strategy?
No. He should have a will regardless. Even if he expect nothing to pass via probate. Offer to refund him the money if there ends up no needing to be a will/probate/personal representative, if it is because he doesn't want to spend the money.

I've seen too many times when things change for some reason or another, and assets end up outside of the beneficiary/pod/tod/etc style accounts.
Earned 43 (and counting) credit hours of financial planning related education from a regionally accredited university, but I am not your advisor.
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by Gill »

reln wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:55 am
A will would be nice to help guide y'all. But it's not necessary.
Say you, in spite of numerous posts by experienced lawyers and others saying just the opposite.
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Post by reln »

Gill wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:09 am
reln wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:55 am
A will would be nice to help guide y'all. But it's not necessary.
Say you, in spite of numerous posts by experienced lawyers and others saying just the opposite.
Gill
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by gwe67 »

reln wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:43 am
Gill wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:09 am
reln wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:55 am
A will would be nice to help guide y'all. But it's not necessary.
Say you, in spite of numerous posts by experienced lawyers and others saying just the opposite.
Gill
Yes.
There is a lot of misinformation on this site. Not just this post, but all over the place. Hopefully the readers are able to separate the truth from fiction. I appreciate the efforts of subject matter experts such as Gill and bsteiner. Any responses that don't align with Gill and bsteiner's posts should be taken with a LARGE grain of salt.
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by LadyGeek »

I removed an off-topic interchange regarding use of the body after death (donation, research ,etc.). The discussion was starting to derail.

Please stay focused on the financial aspects.
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by delamer »

pennywise wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:50 am
michaeljc70 wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:25 am As others have said, the main issues are personal belongings and if one of the expected beneficiaries dies before the father. For example, say the wife dies before the father and he doesn't change who gets the house in time. The wife's long lost cousin (or whoever her heirs could be) could get the house. Some brokerages allow more advanced beneficiary designations but some don't.
My husband and his brother took his widowed 90-YO mother to our estate planning attorney several years ago, as she was clearly declining mentally. The lawyer set up a trust with the two brothers as trustees, retitled the house and bank accounts and also created POA, health care surrogate and living will documents.

MIL was clear that she wanted everything "divided equally to my boys" but I still recall my husband coming home after one appointment and saying the lawyer had stumped all of them by asking what did mom want to happen to her estate if one of the brothers died before her? Nobody had considered that possibility-they all agreed the child or children of the deceased would inherit their dad's share.

Due to dementia and repeated injuries caused by her lack of ability to care for herself, within 6 months MIL was placed in assisted living where she remains today almost 6 years later. She will turn 98 in a couple of months and is now in a vegetative state on hospice care in the memory unit. Having all the documents in place to care for her has taken a burden off us that was unimaginable at the time but which is unfortunately all too common today with better medical care for the elderly.

As for the will, my brother in law was diagnosed a couple of years ago with terminal cancer and this spring we jointly agreed to simplify MIL's affairs by selling her house. In this market it sold fast and for close to a million dollars.

BIL died in June. Less future expenses for MIL's care, my niece will now inherit half of that amount.

None of us ever would have predicted that my MIL would still be alive at almost 100 albeit unable to move, speak, talk or comprehend anything while our much loved brother in law would be dead at 70 years old.

We all know the end of the story. But we can never know the timing or what twists and turns life will hold on the way there.

To the OP: tell your dad to quit being selfish and short sighted and get the will and care documents set up. Why is he deliberately trying to make life harder for those he says he loves, especially at a time when they will already be emotionally distraught by his loss whether it be through death or dire physical/mental decline and dependency?
I’m sorry to hear what your family has gone through.

Unfortunately, all of us of-a-certain-age can share similar stories of lives cut short or derailed in ways that were impossible to predict amongst our families and friends.

That’s why it baffles me that an affluent elderly man who even consider not planning his estate with a will and other end-of-life documents.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
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Post by aristotelian »

cbeck wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:22 pm If the estate is as uncomplicated as the post indicates, then I don't see why relying on TOD designations wouldn't be sufficient. The wife should probably be co-owner of the house, but in most states she would probably get the house anyway. Yes, there are all sorts of possible complications with contingent beneficiaries, etc., but if those do not apply to the case at hand, then it doesn't matter.

Heirs and disappointed non-heirs may indeed behave badly, but it doesn't look like a TOD is any more contestable than a will, maybe less so since it happens without notification to anybody other than the beneficiary.

As to why not have a will anyway, well, one reason not to have a will is if the family in question do not live in the US and haven't for many years. Going through probate from abroad seems like adding a lot of complication unnecessarily.

I don't have a will. All of my assets are in TOD accounts. No property, no children, and no contingent beneficiaries, since if my wife doesn't survive me as expected, I don't care.
I will give you an example that may make you reconsider. Family friend of mine died intestate and estranged from his family. Setting aside the financial piece, my mom attempted to act as personal representative for things like telling the funeral home to cremate the body. The ME would not release death certificates to anyone who was not immediate family. We ended up having to go to a public administrator in order to authorize cremation. The body sat "on ice" as my mom said for about five months before the remains were cremated. We were able to receive the cremains only due to the goodwill of the public administrator. The public administrator also was the one who had to order death certificates in order to trigger the TOD process. The monies got where they were intended but it all could have been done in a few days if he had died with a will.
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by reln »

gwe67 wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:08 am
reln wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:43 am
Gill wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:09 am
reln wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:55 am
A will would be nice to help guide y'all. But it's not necessary.
Say you, in spite of numerous posts by experienced lawyers and others saying just the opposite.
Gill
Yes.
There is a lot of misinformation on this site. Not just this post, but all over the place. Hopefully the readers are able to separate the truth from fiction. I appreciate the efforts of subject matter experts such as Gill and bsteiner. Any responses that don't align with Gill and bsteiner's posts should be taken with a LARGE grain of salt.
I too hope the OP can take all anonymous online replies with all the salt in the universe.

I have a will (and trust) and it's nice to guide the beneficiaries. But it's not the end of the world if a person with named beneficiaries on various accounts doesn't have a will.
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by Lee_WSP »

Intestacy is most certainly not the end of the world and in many cases it does what we'd like it to do. However, some states have odd provisions and sometimes our choices do not line up with state guidelines. If one does not have much in the way of assets, spending a few hundred dollars for a will is not a great cost/benefit. If on the other handm, one is a person of means, there are no good financial reasons to not see an attorney to discuss a will and estate plan.

IMO.
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Post by senex »

bsteiner wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:25 am
VanGar+Goyle wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:12 am How long does it take to probate a Will?
How long does it take to unfreeze all the assets covered by a Will?
Ignoring small estate procedures in some states, the cost to probate a Will is the same regardless of the size of the estate.

But for the backlog due to the pandemic, it usually takes a few weeks to probate a Will.

Executors have to make sure debts, expenses and taxes are provided for before making distributions. Usually by the time someone dies, the beneficiaries are no longer dependent on the decedent for support, so there's usually no urgency.
VanGar, I believe "probate" is a matter in which attorneys and layman often talk past each other.

To an attorney, "probate," which comes from the Latin word "to prove," is the couple weeks it takes to prove that the will is valid.

To a layman, "probate" is the entire 6-9+ month process, that begins with proving the will, and then stretches through months (sometimes years) of things an attorney would call "estate administration": publishing notices, filing taxes, waiting periods, doing court paperwork, etc.

Some states use the word "probate" in the layman sense, some in the stricter legal sense.

In my understanding, once the state is involved, you are looking at minimum 6-9 months, often longer, until you (a) have all assets, and (b) are done with paperwork. Some assets might be distributable sooner than the final paperwork, if it's obvious there will be enough residual money to pay taxes/debts/etc.

In comparison, with beneficiary/tod, you usually get the assets within a couple weeks of death, with no court involvement.
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Post by gwe67 »

He needs to at least spend an hour making a will, power of attorney, and health care directive. This is how I made my first will. It's free and easy, no lawyers involved. I suggest getting it notarized.

https://www.doyourownwill.com
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Post by Carefreeap »

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:44 pm Intestacy is most certainly not the end of the world and in many cases it does what we'd like it to do. However, some states have odd provisions and sometimes our choices do not line up with state guidelines. If one does not have much in the way of assets, spending a few hundred dollars for a will is not a great cost/benefit. If on the other handm, one is a person of means, there are no good financial reasons to not see an attorney to discuss a will and estate plan.

IMO.
I'll add that even though my mother's estate was upside down by nearly $400k the fact that she had "an estate package" made things easier. As Trustee I was able to negotiate with her lenders and arrive at a settlement which saved her condo unit from being foreclosed on. That saved the lender money and given it was 2008 another foreclosure in the complex would have affected the price for the other 57 or so units. The IRS got some money out of the estate. My brother and I wound up with $20k each. Most importantly there was no disagreement between us which could have streched out the process for caring for my mother during her terminal diagnosis and the disposal of her body. I had some serious concern that could have been a problem since my brother was quite religious and conservative and I am not. Mom had it all planned out.
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by neverpanic »

teuton33 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:14 pm My father is 78 years old. He remarried to someone much younger (55). They have been together for 10 years. He’s leaving the house valued at ~1m in a HCOL to the new spouse as well as 300-400k of retirement accounts. The rest of his accounts (300k in Roth and 1.2m in taxable) he intends to leave to my sister and I split 50/50.

He intends to have this coordinated purely through designated beneficiaries on the various accounts. He has no plans for a will or anything else like that.

Is this a sound strategy?
Mostly. Wills are cheap and easy, but TOD/POD are the easiest of all and ordinarily supercede wills. If he doesn't want to pay a lawyer for a will, have him use a DIY kit and a notary. He'll have it done in an hour. Please have him confirm all TOD/POD are already in place. Does stepmom have any assets of her own?
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by bsteiner »

senex wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:40 pm
bsteiner wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:25 am
VanGar+Goyle wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:12 am How long does it take to probate a Will?
How long does it take to unfreeze all the assets covered by a Will?
Ignoring small estate procedures in some states, the cost to probate a Will is the same regardless of the size of the estate.

But for the backlog due to the pandemic, it usually takes a few weeks to probate a Will.

Executors have to make sure debts, expenses and taxes are provided for before making distributions. Usually by the time someone dies, the beneficiaries are no longer dependent on the decedent for support, so there's usually no urgency.
VanGar, I believe "probate" is a matter in which attorneys and layman often talk past each other.

To an attorney, "probate," which comes from the Latin word "to prove," is the couple weeks it takes to prove that the will is valid.

To a layman, "probate" is the entire 6-9+ month process, that begins with proving the will, and then stretches through months (sometimes years) of things an attorney would call "estate administration": publishing notices, filing taxes, waiting periods, doing court paperwork, etc.

Some states use the word "probate" in the layman sense, some in the stricter legal sense.

In my understanding, once the state is involved, you are looking at minimum 6-9 months, often longer, until you (a) have all assets, and (b) are done with paperwork. Some assets might be distributable sooner than the final paperwork, if it's obvious there will be enough residual money to pay taxes/debts/etc.

In comparison, with beneficiary/tod, you usually get the assets within a couple weeks of death, with no court involvement.
You have to do most of that anyway. Someone has to pay the debts, taxes and expenses, file tax returns, sell whatever assets are going to be sold.

If the assets pass outside the Will, what happens if one beneficiary doesn't want to contribute toward the payment of the debts, taxes and expenses?

If the assets pass outside the Will, it will be more difficult to have them go in trust rather than outright, to keep them out of the beneficiaries' estates for estate tax purposes, and to protect against their creditors and spouses.
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by Gill »

neverpanic wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:12 pm If he doesn't want to pay a lawyer for a will, have him use a DIY kit and a notary. He'll have it done in an hour.
A "DIY kit and a notary" won't cut it. Do it that way and you won't have a valid will because two witnesses to the will are normally required in most if not all jurisdictions.
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by quantAndHold »

I've been reading this whole thing and scratching my head. I think people are really talking at cross purposes, and maybe don't understand what actually happens in different scenarios. I'm leaving trusts out for the moment, because the discussion is about a guy who wants to do everything without even a will, and people with trusts usually also have wills.

If you go the beneficiary/TOD/POD route, that's great. You can do that with or without a will, and everything will to to the beneficiaries lickety split. Awesome. But that says nothing about the benefits or drawbacks of a will.

For the things that aren't covered by beneficiary/TOD/POD, that stuff is either covered by a will, or by the laws of intestate succession. For practical purposes for laypeople, those things mean essentially the same thing. An administrator is appointed, bills are paid, and assets distributed, with or without some court oversight. The main difference between dying with a will and dying intestate is that if you die with a will, your will says who you want administering the estate, and who gets the money after the bills are paid. Without a will, who administers the estate and who gets the money is all laid out according to the laws of your state. Which may not be what you want. Especially in the case of someone like OP's dad, who has a blended family.

Also, like bsteiner alluded to, the administrator will need to pay the final bills, which will probably be a significant amount of money. Shoveling every last penny to the heirs via POD/TOD doesn't make that requirement go away, it just complicates things for the administrator.
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Post by Lee_WSP »

senex wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:40 pm I believe "probate" is a matter in which attorneys and layman often talk past each other.

To an attorney, "probate," which comes from the Latin word "to prove," is the couple weeks it takes to prove that the will is valid.

To a layman, "probate" is the entire 6-9+ month process, that begins with proving the will, and then stretches through months (sometimes years) of things an attorney would call "estate administration": publishing notices, filing taxes, waiting periods, doing court paperwork, etc.

Some states use the word "probate" in the layman sense, some in the stricter legal sense.
Possibly. It's certainly true that some attorneys like to use the stricter definition. Here's what one of the handbooks says:
Strictly speaking probate is a court proceeding which has one major, yet simple purpose -- namely to obtain a decree from the court of the decedent estate owner's domicile or property situs determining that the decedent's will is valid to pass title to property subject to the will will from the decedent's estate to those persons named as the beneficiaries of the decedent's will....

Nevertheless, the term "probate" often is used, both legally and certainly in common parlance, to denote aspects of the administration of an estate, or sometimes the property forming part of an estate, that are not confined to the limited purpose tha a probate proceeding itself is intended to fulfill. See Unif. Probate Code 3-502..."supervised administration"...
(not sure why they cite only 502, the entire 500's refer to supervised administration)

Black's defines it as:
The act or process of proving a will. ...
https://thelawdictionary.org/probate/
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Post by FrugalProfessor »

Gill wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:21 pm
neverpanic wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:12 pm If he doesn't want to pay a lawyer for a will, have him use a DIY kit and a notary. He'll have it done in an hour.
A "DIY kit and a notary" won't cut it. Do it that way and you won't have a valid will because two witnesses to the will are normally required in most if not all jurisdictions.
Gill
Serious question.

I did a DIY will years ago (Willmaker). Had two witnesses sign it. Had it notorized.

I am very much in the TOD camp. Even set up a TOD deed for my home. Minor children and all TOD assets (including house) go to brother-in-law (the would-be guardian). I suppose non-TOD assets (like my 10Y corolla worth $1k) would need to be sorted out via will.

I'm not worried about liquidity, like my brother-in-law covering a $4k property tax payment before selling the house. Nor am I worried about the $1k cremation fee either.

Admittedly, there is nothing explicit preventing my brother-in-law from spending every penny and leaving my children destitute. However, I trust him completely.

I suppose when my children become adults, the TOD beneficiary would simply shift from my BIL to my children.

Am I naïve in thinking the above is sufficient? Or am I screwed?
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Post by neverpanic »

Gill wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:21 pm
neverpanic wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:12 pm If he doesn't want to pay a lawyer for a will, have him use a DIY kit and a notary. He'll have it done in an hour.
A "DIY kit and a notary" won't cut it. Do it that way and you won't have a valid will because two witnesses to the will are normally required in most if not all jurisdictions.
Gill
I would expect the notary to tell them that part. ;) With the siblings receiving an equal split (meaning it's unlikely one would go after the share of the other), what's the win for wife/stepmom if she challenges, though? OP hasn't said where they're located in this thread, so there's no clear information to indicate how much of the brokerage accounts would be marital property. It's a safe assumption that it's less than 100%, of course. Wife gets half of his wealth with no drop in lifestyle, and the kids get the other half. With only 3 heirs, where would the challenge come from?
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Post by jeffyscott »

neverpanic wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:03 pm
Gill wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:21 pm
neverpanic wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:12 pm If he doesn't want to pay a lawyer for a will, have him use a DIY kit and a notary. He'll have it done in an hour.
A "DIY kit and a notary" won't cut it. Do it that way and you won't have a valid will because two witnesses to the will are normally required in most if not all jurisdictions.
Gill
I would expect the notary to tell them that part. ;)
Or, perhaps more likely, the "DIY kit" would do so.

Our state issued form did not require or suggest notarization, but did require 2 witnesses.
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by cchrissyy »

FrugalProfessor wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:01 pm
I am very much in the TOD camp. Even set up a TOD deed for my home. Minor children and all TOD assets (including house) go to brother-in-law (the would-be guardian). I suppose non-TOD assets (like my 10Y corolla worth $1k) would need to be sorted out via will.
this is scary! you might disinherit your children

if the inheritance is theirs, it needs to be in accounts that properly belong to them, where they are not at risk of BIL's good intentions, debts, divorce, lawsuits, misunderstandings, and the details of whatever his own will says.
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Post by Lee_WSP »

FrugalProfessor wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:01 pm
Gill wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:21 pm
neverpanic wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:12 pm If he doesn't want to pay a lawyer for a will, have him use a DIY kit and a notary. He'll have it done in an hour.
A "DIY kit and a notary" won't cut it. Do it that way and you won't have a valid will because two witnesses to the will are normally required in most if not all jurisdictions.
Gill
Serious question.

I did a DIY will years ago (Willmaker). Had two witnesses sign it. Had it notorized.

I am very much in the TOD camp. Even set up a TOD deed for my home. Minor children and all TOD assets (including house) go to brother-in-law (the would-be guardian). I suppose non-TOD assets (like my 10Y corolla worth $1k) would need to be sorted out via will.

I'm not worried about liquidity, like my brother-in-law covering a $4k property tax payment before selling the house. Nor am I worried about the $1k cremation fee either.

Admittedly, there is nothing explicit preventing my brother-in-law from spending every penny and leaving my children destitute. However, I trust him completely.

I suppose when my children become adults, the TOD beneficiary would simply shift from my BIL to my children.

Am I naïve in thinking the above is sufficient? Or am I screwed?
So long as the two witnesses do not include the notary, that is usually sufficient for execution.

Aside from the quite obvious debt issue as stated above, I think you should consider the possibility of your BIL becoming incapacitated, the conservator or guardian not knowing that there is an intended trust involved, and simply liquidating your children's assets to pay for BIL's medical bills. Assume BIL is a lone survivor at this point or BIL has remarried.

I can come up with a lot of scenarios where your plan does not work as intended. I highly suggest you speak to an attorney about how to make your plan more robust.

Leaving you with some advice:
What you're trying to do is to create a trust for your minor children whereby your BIL will serve as trustee until such time as they reach some milestone. Alternatively, you are seeking to create a guardianship/conservatorship with BIL holding the assets until your children reach the age of majority. Either way, a TOD directly to BIL is not how to accomplish either of those two goals.
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Post by gwe67 »

neverpanic wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:03 pm
Gill wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:21 pm
neverpanic wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:12 pm If he doesn't want to pay a lawyer for a will, have him use a DIY kit and a notary. He'll have it done in an hour.
A "DIY kit and a notary" won't cut it. Do it that way and you won't have a valid will because two witnesses to the will are normally required in most if not all jurisdictions.
Gill
I would expect the notary to tell them that part. ;) With the siblings receiving an equal split (meaning it's unlikely one would go after the share of the other), what's the win for wife/stepmom if she challenges, though? OP hasn't said where they're located in this thread, so there's no clear information to indicate how much of the brokerage accounts would be marital property. It's a safe assumption that it's less than 100%, of course. Wife gets half of his wealth with no drop in lifestyle, and the kids get the other half. With only 3 heirs, where would the challenge come from?
In Kentucky, heres what would happen (not what OP's father would want):

spouse inherits 1/2 of your personal property, 1/3 of your real property to use during his or her life, and 1/2 of your real property to sell or give away

descendants inherit 1/2 of your personal property and the remainder of your real property
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Post by delamer »

FrugalProfessor wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:01 pm
Gill wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:21 pm
neverpanic wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:12 pm If he doesn't want to pay a lawyer for a will, have him use a DIY kit and a notary. He'll have it done in an hour.
A "DIY kit and a notary" won't cut it. Do it that way and you won't have a valid will because two witnesses to the will are normally required in most if not all jurisdictions.
Gill
Serious question.

I did a DIY will years ago (Willmaker). Had two witnesses sign it. Had it notorized.

I am very much in the TOD camp. Even set up a TOD deed for my home. Minor children and all TOD assets (including house) go to brother-in-law (the would-be guardian). I suppose non-TOD assets (like my 10Y corolla worth $1k) would need to be sorted out via will.

I'm not worried about liquidity, like my brother-in-law covering a $4k property tax payment before selling the house. Nor am I worried about the $1k cremation fee either.

Admittedly, there is nothing explicit preventing my brother-in-law from spending every penny and leaving my children destitute. However, I trust him completely.

I suppose when my children become adults, the TOD beneficiary would simply shift from my BIL to my children.

Am I naïve in thinking the above is sufficient? Or am I screwed?
In your scenario, you’ve died, prematurely, with minor children. And you’ve passed your assets into your BIL so he can care for those children.

What happens if your BIL also dies prematurely while raising your kids? Or he gets sued after your assets have been intermingled with his?

The issues isn’t whether you trust your BIL.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by FrugalProfessor »

delamer wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:29 pm In your scenario, you’ve died, prematurely, with minor children. And you’ve passed your assets into your BIL so he can care for those children.

What happens if your BIL also dies prematurely while raising your kids? Or he gets sued after your assets have been intermingled with his?

The issues isn’t whether you trust your BIL.
I appreciate the response!

I realized my plan was subject to my BIL being alive at the time of my demise. If that changes, I'd obviously need to update the plan to a new guardian. He's married, so my BIL and SIL would both have to die for this plan to fail.

Granted, I don't have contingencies for if he is personally sued.

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:22 pm So long as the two witnesses do not include the notary, that is usually sufficient for execution.

Aside from the quite obvious debt issue as stated above, I think you should consider the possibility of your BIL becoming incapacitated, the conservator or guardian not knowing that there is an intended trust involved, and simply liquidating your children's assets to pay for BIL's medical bills. Assume BIL is a lone survivor at this point or BIL has remarried.

I can come up with a lot of scenarios where your plan does not work as intended. I highly suggest you speak to an attorney about how to make your plan more robust.

Leaving you with some advice:
What you're trying to do is to create a trust for your minor children whereby your BIL will serve as trustee until such time as they reach some milestone. Alternatively, you are seeking to create a guardianship/conservatorship with BIL holding the assets until your children reach the age of majority. Either way, a TOD directly to BIL is not how to accomplish either of those two goals.
I appreciate the response!

BIL is married to SIL who I trust entirely. BIL is retired military and gainfully employed in second career. I don't think medical bills will ever be an issue for him.

I'm not really sure what I'm after. Mainly, I want to establish guardianship for my kids. If we were to croak, I'm fine with my BIL getting all the assets. He'd need a bigger house. I'm fine paying for that. He'd spend more on family vacations. I'm fine paying for that. College expenses would go up. I'm fine paying for that. I trust him to make those decisions. If there is any excess money to distribute after the kids are grown, I'd trust my BIL to figure out a fair way of doing so. If he used some to pay for his own kids, I'm fine with that. I don't think there would be any need for this as he is well off financially. Probably more so than me thanks to the military pension + second high-paying career.

But again, maybe I'm totally naïve.



Thanks again for the feedback!
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Post by Lee_WSP »

FrugalProfessor wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:48 pm
delamer wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:29 pm In your scenario, you’ve died, prematurely, with minor children. And you’ve passed your assets into your BIL so he can care for those children.

What happens if your BIL also dies prematurely while raising your kids? Or he gets sued after your assets have been intermingled with his?

The issues isn’t whether you trust your BIL.
I appreciate the response!

I realized my plan was subject to my BIL being alive at the time of my demise. If that changes, I'd obviously need to update the plan to a new guardian. He's married, so my BIL and SIL would both have to die for this plan to fail.

Granted, I don't have contingencies for if he is personally sued.

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:22 pm So long as the two witnesses do not include the notary, that is usually sufficient for execution.

Aside from the quite obvious debt issue as stated above, I think you should consider the possibility of your BIL becoming incapacitated, the conservator or guardian not knowing that there is an intended trust involved, and simply liquidating your children's assets to pay for BIL's medical bills. Assume BIL is a lone survivor at this point or BIL has remarried.

I can come up with a lot of scenarios where your plan does not work as intended. I highly suggest you speak to an attorney about how to make your plan more robust.

Leaving you with some advice:
What you're trying to do is to create a trust for your minor children whereby your BIL will serve as trustee until such time as they reach some milestone. Alternatively, you are seeking to create a guardianship/conservatorship with BIL holding the assets until your children reach the age of majority. Either way, a TOD directly to BIL is not how to accomplish either of those two goals.
I appreciate the response!

BIL is married to SIL who I trust entirely. BIL is retired military and gainfully employed in second career. I don't think medical bills will ever be an issue for him.

I'm not really sure what I'm after. Mainly, I want to establish guardianship for my kids. If we were to croak, I'm fine with my BIL getting all the assets. He'd need a bigger house. I'm fine paying for that. He'd spend more on family vacations. I'm fine paying for that. College expenses would go up. I'm fine paying for that. I trust him to make those decisions. If there is any excess money to distribute after the kids are grown, I'd trust my BIL to figure out a fair way of doing so. If he used some to pay for his own kids, I'm fine with that. I don't think there would be any need for this as he is well off financially. Probably more so than me thanks to the military pension + second high-paying career.

But again, maybe I'm totally naïve.



Thanks again for the feedback!
And if both SIL & BIL die in a car crash without updating or creating their wills or formally adopting your children you are okay with your children moving on to a new guardian with no assets having been effectively disinherited (assuming someone else in the family tree takes from intestacy or the current will)?
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by Luckywon »

gwe67 wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:26 pm
In Kentucky, heres what would happen (not what OP's father would want):

spouse inherits 1/2 of your personal property, 1/3 of your real property to use during his or her life, and 1/2 of your real property to sell or give away

descendants inherit 1/2 of your personal property and the remainder of your real property
You're describing the spousal elective share in Kentucky but does this apply to the accounts for which there are named beneficiaries?
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Post by FrugalProfessor »

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:55 pm And if both SIL & BIL die in a car crash without updating or creating their wills or formally adopting your children you are okay with your children moving on to a new guardian with no assets having been effectively disinherited (assuming someone else in the family tree takes from intestacy or the current will)?
You win.

How much should I expect to pay for a will that is robust to these issues? Must it be a local lawyer? Or can I seek out one remotely within or out of state?
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Post by Lee_WSP »

FrugalProfessor wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:59 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:55 pm And if both SIL & BIL die in a car crash without updating or creating their wills or formally adopting your children you are okay with your children moving on to a new guardian with no assets having been effectively disinherited (assuming someone else in the family tree takes from intestacy or the current will)?
You win.

How much should I expect to pay for a will that is robust to these issues? Must it be a local lawyer? Or can I seek out one remotely within or out of state?
Which state are you in? The attorney need not be physically located in your state. I am unsure whether they need to be barred in your state (again it depends on state laws). But they do need to be knowledgeable about the specific peculiarities about your state. So, neighboring state lawyers may be viable candidates.

I don't know the answer to the first question. It would depend on how much time is involved in preparing it, but I'd imagine you're looking at about the same time as a revocable living trust (you aren't looking for that, just something of similar complexity). It's frequently quoted as being around $5k on these forums, which is in line with my state, so I think that's a good starting figure.

What you are looking for is a lawyer who is willing to draft a testamentary trust and will not force you into a revocable living trust or other financial products. Sadly, the profession has such attorneys and that's one reason why LegalZoom is very popular. It's hard to judge someone's competence without being a trusts & estates lawyer oneself, but I think the first sentence is a good litmus test. Whether or not they're willing to guide you into the correct product for your situation instead of some cookie cutter document spit out by (quite frankly) a different set of software. They should also bill you by the hour, whether or not they are able or willing to give you a time estimate, that's how good planners will bill (because no one's situation is exactly like another's (unless you are literally pumping out the same exact document (like LegalZoom))).

The actual legal mechanism that will be best for your situation could include a trust (either living or testamentary), a guardianship, a conservatorship, a UTMA account(s), a corporate fiduciary, a small firm or solo fiduciary, or other vehicles I can't think of off the top of my head. However, the usual suspect is a trust of some sort which is then tailored to your specific situation.

Okay, that's a lot of text, let me know if you have further questions or want more clarification.
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Post by senex »

bsteiner wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:17 pm You have to do most of that anyway. Someone has to pay the debts, taxes and expenses, file tax returns, sell whatever assets are going to be sold.

If the assets pass outside the Will, what happens if one beneficiary doesn't want to contribute toward the payment of the debts, taxes and expenses?
I suppose this highlights the blessing of my condition. For estates I've helped settle, no one considered lying on forms or cheating on his obligations. It was easier and less stressful to do these things on our own, without an extra layer of bureaucratic supervision, delay, and cost/complexity. I'm not recommending that (or any) particular approach, just pointing out some benefits & drawbacks.

bsteiner wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:17 pm If the assets pass outside the Will, it will be more difficult to have them go in trust rather than outright, to keep them out of the beneficiaries' estates for estate tax purposes, and to protect against their creditors and spouses.
This is valuable information, unknown to some do-it-yourselfers. I appreciate your ongoing effort to point it out. It's something everyone of means should know, though in my experience, not everyone of means is interested in doing so (mostly for psychological/ethical reasons, and sometimes for practical or financial ones).
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Post by jeffyscott »

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:11 pm
FrugalProfessor wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:59 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:55 pm And if both SIL & BIL die in a car crash without updating or creating their wills or formally adopting your children you are okay with your children moving on to a new guardian with no assets having been effectively disinherited (assuming someone else in the family tree takes from intestacy or the current will)?
You win.

How much should I expect to pay for a will that is robust to these issues? Must it be a local lawyer? Or can I seek out one remotely within or out of state?
Which state are you in? The attorney need not be physically located in your state. I am unsure whether they need to be barred in your state (again it depends on state laws). But they do need to be knowledgeable about the specific peculiarities about your state. So, neighboring state lawyers may be viable candidates.

I don't know the answer to the first question. It would depend on how much time is involved in preparing it, but I'd imagine you're looking at about the same time as a revocable living trust (you aren't looking for that, just something of similar complexity). It's frequently quoted as being around $5k on these forums, which is in line with my state, so I think that's a good starting figure.
I know nothing, but would be shocked if people were paying anything close to $5000 for a simple Will with, with a trust provision for kids...something along the lines of what this form does in my state:
https://law.marquette.edu/assets/commun ... ndout5.pdf
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Post by Lee_WSP »

jeffyscott wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:22 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:11 pm
FrugalProfessor wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:59 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:55 pm And if both SIL & BIL die in a car crash without updating or creating their wills or formally adopting your children you are okay with your children moving on to a new guardian with no assets having been effectively disinherited (assuming someone else in the family tree takes from intestacy or the current will)?
You win.

How much should I expect to pay for a will that is robust to these issues? Must it be a local lawyer? Or can I seek out one remotely within or out of state?
Which state are you in? The attorney need not be physically located in your state. I am unsure whether they need to be barred in your state (again it depends on state laws). But they do need to be knowledgeable about the specific peculiarities about your state. So, neighboring state lawyers may be viable candidates.

I don't know the answer to the first question. It would depend on how much time is involved in preparing it, but I'd imagine you're looking at about the same time as a revocable living trust (you aren't looking for that, just something of similar complexity). It's frequently quoted as being around $5k on these forums, which is in line with my state, so I think that's a good starting figure.
I know nothing, but would be shocked if people were paying anything close to $5000 for a simple Will with, with a trust provision for kids...something along the lines of what this form does in my state:
https://law.marquette.edu/assets/commun ... ndout5.pdf
The same can be said about living revocable trusts. At least four different versions are available for free online. I'm not going to debate pricing, it's very situation specific, and I'm not knowlegable on pricing trends outside of my state.
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Post by cbeck »

aristotelian wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:29 am
cbeck wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:22 pm If the estate is as uncomplicated as the post indicates, then I don't see why relying on TOD designations wouldn't be sufficient. The wife should probably be co-owner of the house, but in most states she would probably get the house anyway. Yes, there are all sorts of possible complications with contingent beneficiaries, etc., but if those do not apply to the case at hand, then it doesn't matter.

Heirs and disappointed non-heirs may indeed behave badly, but it doesn't look like a TOD is any more contestable than a will, maybe less so since it happens without notification to anybody other than the beneficiary.

As to why not have a will anyway, well, one reason not to have a will is if the family in question do not live in the US and haven't for many years. Going through probate from abroad seems like adding a lot of complication unnecessarily.

I don't have a will. All of my assets are in TOD accounts. No property, no children, and no contingent beneficiaries, since if my wife doesn't survive me as expected, I don't care.
I will give you an example that may make you reconsider. Family friend of mine died intestate and estranged from his family. Setting aside the financial piece, my mom attempted to act as personal representative for things like telling the funeral home to cremate the body. The ME would not release death certificates to anyone who was not immediate family. We ended up having to go to a public administrator in order to authorize cremation. The body sat "on ice" as my mom said for about five months before the remains were cremated. We were able to receive the cremains only due to the goodwill of the public administrator. The public administrator also was the one who had to order death certificates in order to trigger the TOD process. The monies got where they were intended but it all could have been done in a few days if he had died with a will.
You don't explain how his having a will would have solved the problem. Even if the will had authorized your mother to make the funeral arrangements wouldn't the death certificate have been required before the will could be probated? The problem in this case seems to be his alienation from his family, rather than his intestacy.

In any case this consideration does not apply to American expats like myself. When I die, the Thai authorities will issue a certificate of death the official translation of which my wife will bring to the US Consulate who will provide her with a Consular Report of Death Abroad. She will send copies of the Consular Report to the banks and brokerage firms who will transfer my accounts to her as my sole beneficiary. Since I have no other assets in the US, there will be no need to probate a will.
aristotelian
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by aristotelian »

cbeck wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:13 am
You don't explain how his having a will would have solved the problem. Even if the will had authorized your mother to make the funeral arrangements wouldn't the death certificate have been required before the will could be probated? The problem in this case seems to be his alienation from his family, rather than his intestacy.

In any case this consideration does not apply to American expats like myself. When I die, the Thai authorities will issue a certificate of death the official translation of which my wife will bring to the US Consulate who will provide her with a Consular Report of Death Abroad. She will send copies of the Consular Report to the banks and brokerage firms who will transfer my accounts to her as my sole beneficiary. Since I have no other assets in the US, there will be no need to probate a will.
Having a will would have enabled whomever named as Executor to dispose of the body and receive death certificates much faster without having to depend on the public administrator. You are right, his situation was unusual but the broader point is that there may be reasons you can't anticipate to have an Executor beyond transferring accounts. My question in your case is if something should happen to both of you, are you OK with the state determining your Executor. If you are no longer resident of a US state, would the Consulate make that call? Or the Thai government?
bsteiner
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by bsteiner »

jeffyscott wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:22 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:11 pm
FrugalProfessor wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:59 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:55 pm And if both SIL & BIL die in a car crash without updating or creating their wills or formally adopting your children you are okay with your children moving on to a new guardian with no assets having been effectively disinherited (assuming someone else in the family tree takes from intestacy or the current will)?
You win.

How much should I expect to pay for a will that is robust to these issues? Must it be a local lawyer? Or can I seek out one remotely within or out of state?
Which state are you in? The attorney need not be physically located in your state. I am unsure whether they need to be barred in your state (again it depends on state laws). But they do need to be knowledgeable about the specific peculiarities about your state. So, neighboring state lawyers may be viable candidates.

I don't know the answer to the first question. It would depend on how much time is involved in preparing it, but I'd imagine you're looking at about the same time as a revocable living trust (you aren't looking for that, just something of similar complexity). It's frequently quoted as being around $5k on these forums, which is in line with my state, so I think that's a good starting figure.
I know nothing, but would be shocked if people were paying anything close to $5000 for a simple Will with, with a trust provision for kids...something along the lines of what this form does in my state:
https://law.marquette.edu/assets/commun ... ndout5.pdf
You could probably get a Will that's much more flexible and comprehensive than the one in your link at a cost about midway between the cost of the one to which you linked and the figure you mentioned.
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MrMadoff
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by MrMadoff »

aristotelian wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:29 am I will give you an example that may make you reconsider. Family friend of mine died intestate and estranged from his family. Setting aside the financial piece, my mom attempted to act as personal representative for things like telling the funeral home to cremate the body. The ME would not release death certificates to anyone who was not immediate family. We ended up having to go to a public administrator in order to authorize cremation. The body sat "on ice" as my mom said for about five months before the remains were cremated. We were able to receive the cremains only due to the goodwill of the public administrator. The public administrator also was the one who had to order death certificates in order to trigger the TOD process. The monies got where they were intended but it all could have been done in a few days if he had died with a will.
You piqued my curiosity regarding who can obtain a death certificate. I found the following state-by-state listing to be interesting:

https://www.everplans.com/articles/stat ... nformation
cbeck
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by cbeck »

aristotelian wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:19 am
cbeck wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:13 am
You don't explain how his having a will would have solved the problem. Even if the will had authorized your mother to make the funeral arrangements wouldn't the death certificate have been required before the will could be probated? The problem in this case seems to be his alienation from his family, rather than his intestacy.

In any case this consideration does not apply to American expats like myself. When I die, the Thai authorities will issue a certificate of death the official translation of which my wife will bring to the US Consulate who will provide her with a Consular Report of Death Abroad. She will send copies of the Consular Report to the banks and brokerage firms who will transfer my accounts to her as my sole beneficiary. Since I have no other assets in the US, there will be no need to probate a will.
Having a will would have enabled whomever named as Executor to dispose of the body and receive death certificates much faster without having to depend on the public administrator. You are right, his situation was unusual but the broader point is that there may be reasons you can't anticipate to have an Executor beyond transferring accounts. My question in your case is if something should happen to both of you, are you OK with the state determining your Executor. If you are no longer resident of a US state, would the Consulate make that call? Or the Thai government?
Well your friend's body could presumably also have been disposed of by his next of kin had he been in contact with them. Lots of people die intestate, but still get buried somehow.

Since I haven't live in the US for ten years and have no intention ever of returning to live there, I don't see how any state would take an interest in my estate even in the unlikely event that any of the authorities were to become aware of my death. So no state will ever appoint an executor of my estate especially since, other than the TOD accounts, there won't be any estate.

If my wife and I both die, the TOD assets would pass to the contingent beneficiary without probate and without an executor. The Thai government would have no jurisdiction over US assets, if there were any.

Unless there is a concrete and realistic situation that would require probating my estate, I am not going to prepare a US will based solely on the general advice of estate attorneys.

Living abroad and dying there changes the picture substantially, so that the usual rules of thumb are not relevant.
aristotelian
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by aristotelian »

cbeck wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:56 pm Well your friend's body could presumably also have been disposed of by his next of kin had he been in contact with them. Lots of people die intestate, but still get buried somehow.

Since I haven't live in the US for ten years and have no intention ever of returning to live there, I don't see how any state would take an interest in my estate even in the unlikely event that any of the authorities were to become aware of my death. So no state will ever appoint an executor of my estate especially since, other than the TOD accounts, there won't be any estate.

If my wife and I both die, the TOD assets would pass to the contingent beneficiary without probate and without an executor. The Thai government would have no jurisdiction over US assets, if there were any.

Unless there is a concrete and realistic situation that would require probating my estate, I am not going to prepare a US will based solely on the general advice of estate attorneys.

Living abroad and dying there changes the picture substantially, so that the usual rules of thumb are not relevant.
I should not have tried to give unwanted advice for your situation and will stop. My broader point for anyone reading is that even if your financial assets are TOD there may be unanticipated situations where you would still want to name your personal representative or Executor. Even if you decide not to have a will, you may want to consult with an attorney to make sure that is a wise decision.
VanGar+Goyle
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Re: Father intends to have no will. He will use named beneficiaries on accounts to distribute assets to heirs. Is this w

Post by VanGar+Goyle »

senex wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:40 pm
bsteiner wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:25 am
VanGar+Goyle wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:12 am How long does it take to probate a Will?
How long does it take to unfreeze all the assets covered by a Will?
Ignoring small estate procedures in some states, the cost to probate a Will is the same regardless of the size of the estate.

But for the backlog due to the pandemic, it usually takes a few weeks to probate a Will.

Executors have to make sure debts, expenses and taxes are provided for before making distributions. Usually by the time someone dies, the beneficiaries are no longer dependent on the decedent for support, so there's usually no urgency.
VanGar, I believe "probate" is a matter in which attorneys and layman often talk past each other.

To an attorney, "probate," which comes from the Latin word "to prove," is the couple weeks it takes to prove that the will is valid.

To a layman, "probate" is the entire 6-9+ month process, that begins with proving the will, and then stretches through months (sometimes years) of things an attorney would call "estate administration": publishing notices, filing taxes, waiting periods, doing court paperwork, etc.

Some states use the word "probate" in the layman sense, some in the stricter legal sense.

In my understanding, once the state is involved, you are looking at minimum 6-9 months, often longer, until you (a) have all assets, and (b) are done with paperwork. Some assets might be distributable sooner than the final paperwork, if it's obvious there will be enough residual money to pay taxes/debts/etc.

In comparison, with beneficiary/tod, you usually get the assets within a couple weeks of death, with no court involvement.
That explains it. It took few hours of court time, some days of billable lawyer time, and many months of real time :)

For some reason, this reminds me of my favorite Peter Sellers Joke: Does your dog bite? No.
[ Dog bites Man ] That is not my dog.
Well, you pay a little bit, we're a little bit tough. | You pay very much, very much tough. | You pay a too much, we're too much a tough. | How much you pay? ... Well, then we're plenty tough. - Marx
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