Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

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StevieG72
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Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by StevieG72 »

So I will preface my post with I am smart enough to know, that I don’t know what I don’t know!

My daughter has decided she wants to be a doctor, specifically a GI specialist. I am relatively neutral on her career choice and realize it could change, however she is a rising senior in high school. ( I have explained to her doctors make great money but also work brutal hours )

We live in Virginia, and have great state schools to choose from. Kiddo has narrowed down her choices to the highly selective UVA, or the beloved VT. ( everyone in Va. seems to love VT )Both great schools, both affordable at ballpark 25k per year. Having listened to the podcast with Rick Ferri and Ron Lieber about paying for college, I like the idea of saving 1/3, pay for 1/3 using current income, and borrowing 1/3. ( maybe because this plan fits neatly with my current 529 savings and income) I also find some truth to the statement that you can borrow for college, but not for retirement.

What comes next? How much does medical school cost? How long will my child be in school to become a GI specialist? And most importantly, tell me what I don’t know, please!

I briefly browsed WCI’s forum but realized it was probably not the best place to post this question as it is geared towards those already wearing the white coats. I do like the advice to live like a resident once income increases to knock out debt!

Thanks in advance to those that take time to reply!
Fools think their own way is right, but the wise listen to others.
livesoft
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by livesoft »

The two physicians in my family earned undergraduate degrees from UVA. That's an anecdote.

I'd leave it up to your child to find out all the answers to your questions and just wouldn't worry about it at all myself.
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Raymond
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by Raymond »

Has she done volunteer work in a hospital or clinic?

If it turns out that she can't or won't tolerate the sights and smells involved, then everything else is moot.

Particularly if she wants to go into GI...

I had a classmate in my PA program who left at the end of the first year because he realized he "didn't want to be around sick people." :confused
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Craig2020
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by Craig2020 »

I am a physician, about ten years out of residency training. I did not take high school too seriously and that did not seem to impact my ability to get into medical school later. I ended up at a small liberal arts school for undergrad, mostly because I wanted to play sports and I was not good enough for division 1 - but was for division 3. The only reason I bring this up is because there is not any one straight path to medical school. Be mindful of the undergrad she attends, but honestly you can make a slight mistake on what school you picked and still be okay in the end. There are tons of different paths to get there.

Even though I went to a small school, there were probably about 25 freshman who declared being pre-med at the start. In the end I was the only one who got into medical school and one other person was able to after a couple years of extra graduate school/research type efforts to pad their application. I only bring this up to point out that attrition is high amongst the undergrad pre-med crowd. No problem doing it none-the-less, but even as a freshman I picked an undergraduate path that would land me a job in case I gave up on my med school plans or I was not able to get in. A few friends didn't do that sort of double planning and had a rough go of it after undergrad graduation.

Medical school costs vary, mostly by public versus private and of course in-state vs out of state for the former. Most will have the tuition price right on their website, so just google ten or so schools that she might attend later to get an understanding of the differences in the prices of the various types. Be mindful of loans when picking a residency, but honestly don't let that stop her from going into any specific specialty. GI docs make a good living. Honestly, I planned to be a specialist but then found I liked generalist type work - my salary is much less than a specialist but honestly I fair much better than most Americans so I can't complain too much. I don't know any physician who got through the entire process and was reasonable with their money that is not fairing at least okay financially and most much better. I do know of folks that make upwards of three quarters of a million dollars as a dual physician couple who are struggling, but those folks typically can't get a hold of their lifestyle costs. You know, $800k house, two cars with combined cost of $150k, $50k a year in vacations, etc while coming out of training with >$400k or whatever in debt.

Hope something I typed was helpful. As far as "what comes next?" - just encourage her to get great grades her first year in undergrad, maybe be involved in a little volunteering and talk with one of the pre-med advisors at her undergrad. Nothing really else to do the first year of undergrad.
stoptothink
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by stoptothink »

StevieG72 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:02 pm
What comes next? How much does medical school cost? How long will my child be in school to become a GI specialist? And most importantly, tell me what I don’t know, please!
Not a physician, but a PhD scientist who works in healthcare, almost all colleagues being physicians, and has had a significant amount of his employees go onto med school. Like undergrad education, the cost of medical school can vary dramatically. They generally only have a set amount of spots for non-residents, but Texas medical schools are cheap comparatively. I have 5 former employees who got into Texas medical schools (#10,9,7, and 5 on the list https://www.studentloanplanner.com/chea ... l-schools/ and another at Baylor), none of them are from Texas or did undergrad in Texas, and it saved them well into 6-figures. To be a gastroenterologist: med school, residency, then fellowship - so 10 more years of school.

There are A LOT of physicians on this board, a shocking amount who are dissatisfied with the direction of healthcare (especially in specific disciplines, like ER). Gastroenterology is one of the higher-paying specialties, that's about all I can offer.
JP711
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by JP711 »

Recently retired gastroenterologist here after 30 years in clinical practice. Agree that your daughter, if she hasn’t already, spend time in a hospital to verify that she likes blood and guts. The process after college is 4 years of medical school, followed by 3 years of a residency in internal medicine, then 3 years of a gastroenterology fellowship. The average first year resident salary is 58k with incremental bumps every post graduate year for 6 total years after medical school.

Clinical gastroenterology can be very procedure oriented and at times feels like working on an assembly line but overall I am happy with my career decision. It did enable me to retire at age 61. I actually enjoyed counseling patients about irritable bowel syndrome which is by far the most common GI disorder but many gastroenterologists do not. The hours aren’t that bad. My days typically ended by mid afternoon. Taking call and rounding on weekends every 5th week or so was never fun.

Good luck to your daughter.
tenkuky
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by tenkuky »

Consider a summer exposure program. UVA provides this list…
https://career.virginia.edu/summer2021p ... ortunities
tibbitts
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by tibbitts »

StevieG72 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:02 pm My daughter has decided she wants to be a doctor, specifically a GI specialist. I am relatively neutral on her career choice and realize it could change, however she is a rising senior in high school. ( I have explained to her doctors make great money but also work brutal hours )
I wasn't in the medical field but my feeling is you're thinking way too far ahead here.
delamer
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by delamer »

As others have said, medical school costs vary just like undergrad costs — private vs. public; in-state public vs, out-of-state public.

Our family member who is a MD currently in residency in anesthesiology started med school planning on specializing in internal medicine. Experience during med school rotations put ob-gyn and psychiatry in the mix too. You never know.
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MedSaver
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by MedSaver »

I think there’s a 95% chance that she changes her choice of specialty by the time she’s done with med school unless there’s some specific experience driving her towards GI. So I would just focus on getting into med school at this point, and even then, this is really early. Nothing against GI, but I find it highly unlikely that a high school student knows enough about the ins and outs of all of the available specialties to have already settled on one. Almost everyone I know vacillated through med school. Med school price points are highly variable as discussed already, but I would expect the costs to continue rising above the level of inflation so take the current prices and tack on a few grand.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by Yesterdaysnews »

The fascinating thing about medical school / becoming a doctor is that pedigree matters much less than in other fields. It matters a lot where you went to law school and business school but very little where you went to medical school. A Caribbean grad can do just as well as a Hopkins grad career wise out in community practice.

Regarding specialty choice I think it’s incredibly important to pick a field with less corporate takeover potential. Private equity / corporate entities are buying up practices from old doctors and making employees / indentured servants out of young doctors and in essence skimming money off the labor of physicians while trapping them in non-competes. Fields where this is happening include Dermatology, primary care, Hospitalist, Anesthesia, Radiology and the trend is growing.

I would recommend picking a field where there remains the option of physician independence and private practice possibility - this will have a massive impact on career satisfaction and earnings.
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StevieG72
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by StevieG72 »

Thanks everyone for the replies!

A little more information for those that are interested...

My daughter has had exposer to some of the not so pleasant things medically as a patient. She has Crohn's disease and has had multiple hospitalizations, surgery, and is currently doing very well and is receiving great care from her doctors. We are fortunate and impressed with the level of care provided by our local children's hospital. (CHKD Norfolk Virgina, GREAT hospital!) This path has led to the GI specialist interest.

I agree more exposer is a great idea! Unfortunately volunteer opportunities have diminished due to Covid. Will definitely check out the summer exposer programs! I did not know they existed and we have asked about volunteer opportunities at numerous hospitals.

Lastly, I also realize that my child needs to figure out some of this stuff herself. More back story, neither Mom or Dad are college educated so we lack the experiences to share and lead our kiddo in the right direction. She is behind in some areas for example volunteering, partially due to ignorance and also due to her medical condition that was recently diagnosed and lastly Covid.

Thanks again for the information, I love the Boglehead community!
Fools think their own way is right, but the wise listen to others.
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Yesterdaysnews
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by Yesterdaysnews »

To be frank, for medical school grades and MCAT are the only things that really matter. Volunteer work, undergrad research in a lab etc are pretty insignificant but most applicants do a little of that. Really GPA and MCAT scores are the only real factors and I would tell her to focus on those two things above all else.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by miket29 »

she can learn what it takes to get into med school by reading thru the very informative https://www.rhodes.edu/sites/default/fi ... ntials.pdf. There is also a good handbook at https://www.amherst.edu/campuslife/care ... alth/guide and no doubt many other websites, as well as books.

Any college in the country offers the dozen or so lower-division science and math needed by premeds. Whether a kid works for good grades, get to know some profs so they get strong recs, takes part in appropriate ECs, and develops compelling essays is up to them. The concern I would have about some of these schools is not whether they are capable of teaching the material but the milieu. If most kids around you are slacking off or don't take academics seriously it could be socially uncomfortable to be the "nerd" that is at the library studying.

It's worth pointing out that doctors are far from the only ones in the health field that help people. Physical therapists, radiology techs, nurses, speech pathologists, physician assistants, nurse practitioners, to name but just a few. as she can see on http://explorehealthcareers.org Unless she's carefully considered the alternatives and have spent time working in a health care setting (which is an unwritten requirement to get into med school) its better to think of her as exploring a career as a doctor rather than someone who has already made the decision.

My advice is to have her start out with the standard premed courses (chem and math her frosh year) as well as get some volunteer experience. Attend the premed orientation talks at her college, meet with the advising staff. At the end of frosh year she should have a better idea of both whether it's really what she wants and whether she'll be a competitive applicant.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by manatee2005 »

First question is why does she want to be a doctor and also a GI specialist? Does she watch a lot of Grays anatomy? Are you or your wife doctors? Any aunts/uncles that are doctors? Seems pretty specific concentration for a 16/17 year old to pick.

Like others have said, have her volunteer at a hospital. I know a few kids who gave up that career choice after being in hospitals, myself included. I'll never forget things I have seen there that made me run away from career in health. I am in tech now and making more money than doctors, from home :sharebeer
TheNightsToCome
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by TheNightsToCome »

StevieG72 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:48 pm Thanks everyone for the replies!

A little more information for those that are interested...

My daughter has had exposer to some of the not so pleasant things medically as a patient. She has Crohn's disease and has had multiple hospitalizations, surgery, and is currently doing very well and is receiving great care from her doctors. We are fortunate and impressed with the level of care provided by our local children's hospital. (CHKD Norfolk Virgina, GREAT hospital!) This path has led to the GI specialist interest.

I agree more exposer is a great idea! Unfortunately volunteer opportunities have diminished due to Covid. Will definitely check out the summer exposer programs! I did not know they existed and we have asked about volunteer opportunities at numerous hospitals.

Lastly, I also realize that my child needs to figure out some of this stuff herself. More back story, neither Mom or Dad are college educated so we lack the experiences to share and lead our kiddo in the right direction. She is behind in some areas for example volunteering, partially due to ignorance and also due to her medical condition that was recently diagnosed and lastly Covid.

Thanks again for the information, I love the Boglehead community!
I'm a cardiologist. I agree with yesterdaysnews that GPA and MCAT scores are much more important than volunteer experience. I volunteered in an ER and a psychiatry unit while in college and found both to be a waste of time.

Ordinarily I'd be skeptical of high school plans; so many students change their mind. However, she has a special reason to be interested in GI so maybe this plan will stick.

I was the first in the history of my extended family to attend college, too, and that was pre-internet. Today, she can find a wealth of information online. She'll have options as long as she scores well.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by MedSaver »

Yesterdaysnews wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:34 pm The fascinating thing about medical school / becoming a doctor is that pedigree matters much less than in other fields. It matters a lot where you went to law school and business school but very little where you went to medical school. A Caribbean grad can do just as well as a Hopkins grad career wise out in community practice.
I think this is only partly true. Most people don’t care about which MD program you went to. I know people who went to random places all over and ended up doing really well and going into competitive specialties. But there is a definitely a barrier to entry for Caribbean grads and to a lesser extent DOs. Some is unfair stigma and some is probably a result of poor students being allowed entry into schools with much lower bars to entry. I know some amazing Caribbean grads, but they are probably the exception, not the rule.

See: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/29/heal ... l.amp.html
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by JPM »

A young man or woman who loves science and remains a sincere humanitarian will be happy in the work. To maintain skill requires a lifetime of study, as it does in other learned professions. Love of science and natural curiosity make the studying enjoyable rather than an unwelcome burden.

For the women, the long training period and its required night work and irregular hours may interfere with or delay mating and family life. For this reason some very bright young women who would have been capable physicians choose to pursue careers as PAs in order to be free to marry and have children earlier in life, particularly if they have a coherent plan for forming a family before finishing undergrad. The PA does similar work to the physician, accepts less (but still very good) pay and the need for supervision in most cases.

My training is decades in the past, so I cannot speak to the contemporary med school and post-doc training milieu.

Two now-retired colleagues had long successful careers as lady gastro specialists in community practice and been happy in it and were able to combine it with successful family lives. Terrific women blessed with good (and lucky) husbands. The work is interesting, can be varied, well-remunerated, and the main drawback is being susceptible to being called out for emergencies at all hours, usually related to gastrointestinal hemorrhages. Apart from that, you can work as much or as little as your partners will tolerate and adjust your effort in accord with that tolerance and the demands of family life. Really important to have good partners and a good husband to pull that off successfully. I don't know the young lady gastros well enough to comment on their views.

I agree with the above post regarding the high attrition among undergrad pre-meds and the crucial nature of perseverance. Taking a masters degree and reapplying to med school following rejection when applying as an undergrad was common among my undergrad friends. Those guys were really determined and have had successful careers in medicine. More undergrad freshmen premeds became lawyers than doctors among my undergrad classmates.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by TheNightsToCome »

MedSaver wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:27 pm
Yesterdaysnews wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:34 pm The fascinating thing about medical school / becoming a doctor is that pedigree matters much less than in other fields. It matters a lot where you went to law school and business school but very little where you went to medical school. A Caribbean grad can do just as well as a Hopkins grad career wise out in community practice.
I think this is only partly true. Most people don’t care about which MD program you went to. I know people who went to random places all over and ended up doing really well and going into competitive specialties. But there is a definitely a barrier to entry for Caribbean grads and to a lesser extent DOs. Some is unfair stigma and some is probably a result of poor students being allowed entry into schools with much lower bars to entry. I know some amazing Caribbean grads, but they are probably the exception, not the rule.

See: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/29/heal ... l.amp.html
I think you're correct about matching in competitive specialties, but once in private practice the pedigree doesn't matter much. I ran a critical care services business after IM residency and hired a US born intensivist who went to med school in Mexico. He did post-grad training in the US and was board-certified. He was a competent doc and earned the same compensation package as everyone else.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by Katietsu »

TheNightsToCome wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:21 pm
I'm a cardiologist. I agree with yesterdaysnews that GPA and MCAT scores are much more important than volunteer experience. I volunteered in an ER and a psychiatry unit while in college and found both to be a waste of time.
You may have found the volunteer experiences a waste of time, but a medical school admission committee will feel differently. There is concern about medical students who are great in a classroom but who hate it when they get into the clinical setting. The debate as to whether a volunteer or shadow experience really gives you a feel for being a physician is valid, but there is no question that a medical school admission committee will want to have that part of the application to have something in it. Put another way, GPA and MCAT scores more important but experience in a healthcare environment a box that needs checked off.

To the OP, your daughter is not behind. As a high school student with years before the time to apply, I would probably just sit out the next year. Hopefully by then there will be a more stable situation with respect to Covid and she can have a good experience.

Right now, just let her focus on getting into college. Either UVA or VT will have everything she needs if she stays with the med school plan or if she changes her mind. So, for the next couple of years, I would have her keep an open mind as to a career path. Meanwhile, strive for top grades and choose a curriculum that will let her get started on the needed science and math requirements.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by delamer »

My impression is that throughout their education — starting with undergrad and going through residency and fellowships — that developing good relationships with professors and senior colleagues who can provide recommendations and mentoring is critical to success.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by MedSaver »

TheNightsToCome wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:59 pm I think you're correct about matching in competitive specialties, but once in private practice the pedigree doesn't matter much. I ran a critical care services business after IM residency and hired a US born intensivist who went to med school in Mexico. He did post-grad training in the US and was board-certified. He was a competent doc and earned the same compensation package as everyone else.
In my experience there is only a real problem with Caribbean med schools. Most other foreign medical schools are held in high regard by US training programs and in many cases foreign med schools are harder to get into than those in the US. I would say there is near zero discrimination after residency as regards pedigree, particularly in private practice.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by TheNightsToCome »

Katietsu wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:18 pm
TheNightsToCome wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:21 pm
I'm a cardiologist. I agree with yesterdaysnews that GPA and MCAT scores are much more important than volunteer experience. I volunteered in an ER and a psychiatry unit while in college and found both to be a waste of time.
The debate as to whether a volunteer or shadow experience really gives you a feel for being a physician is valid, but there is no question that a medical school admission committee will want to have that part of the application to have something in it. Put another way, GPA and MCAT scores more important but experience in a healthcare environment a box that needs checked off.
In my experience, volunteering or shadowing does not give one a "feel for being a physician," not at all.

I haven't been a part of a medical school admission committee, so I can't assess how much a committee values it. Based on my experience interviewing decades ago, my MCAT scores earned my seat. No one asked about my volunteer experiences.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by newinvestor1234321 »

As a little background I am now 33 years old and 2 years removed from the end of fellowship. I went straight through undergrad, med school, residency, and fellowship.I am now a partner in a private practice and very satisfied with my current job. I am another specialist, but not a GI doc. The largest downside to both my specialty and GI is generally considered to be the call with lots of overnights, weekends, and holidays needed.

The path is undergrad, med school, 3 years internal med residency, 3 years GI fellowship (and sometimes another advanced fellowship after this). The hardest part of this will be matching the GI fellowship, as it is generally considered the 2nd hardest fellowship for IM residents to match info, after cardiology. It is probably also the 2nd most lucrative, in general. This is not an accident...

As others mentioned, I highly recommend she shadow in a hospital ASAP to make sure she enjoys this. I give everyone a story of my intern year where I worked well over 100 hrs a week... if you are doing it for the money and not enjoyment of the field, at some point along the way you will burn out and be at risk for depression, anxiety, suicide, etc. Make sure you like what you do at least most of the time.

I also highly recommend she goes to a highly ranked undergrad school. This will help in med school admissions. The two most important factors are by far GPA and MCAT - with any supplement of shadowing, volunteering, research, leadership, etc helping to round out a med school application. The last 4 are much easier than the former 2.

I will also mention most pre-meds don't eventually go to med school. I would only recommend this path for those really good at standardized tests (as these are never-ending). If she struggles to get A's in organic chemistry and a 80-90%th percentile MCAT it is likely, but not guaranteed, that she might struggle with further and harder tests. The best predictor of future performance on a major standardized test is your last performance on a major standardized test. Once you enter med school and residency these are never ending and only get harder, as does the competition. For those that struggle with test-taking it is a really hard path and may limit her options to pick a competitive speciality like GI. This is especially true if she doesn't attend a MD school in the US.

Can someone, somewhere get a competitive specialty from a DO program or Carribbean school? Sure, maybe 1/20 or 1/50 can. But that's extremely rare and these people are usually superstars with outrageous board scores that had a special reason to attend one of these school in the first place. Or have the right connections. Or won a Nobel prize. You get the idea...

Medicine also tends to only look back at your "last" education. Harvard undergrad sets you up great for many US MD options. Harvard med sets you up for a great, competitive residency (go look at their previous match lists). Same for residency into fellowship. A Harvard residency and fellowship can set you up for any job you want anywhere in the country in a way lesser programs can't. The best private practices can pick and choose who they want and from which program. Can you get a job somewhere? Sure, but maybe not the one you want or the location you want. Can you skip an above step from public school into a top tier program and/or competitive specialty? Sure, but again those people tend to be superstars who had person reasons for not choosing this path (i.e. full ride, family situation, etc).

The bottom really fell out of emergency medicine recently and there are a lot of reasons for that. If you want specific info let me know, but expect it to be a much less competitive specialty over the next few years. Those similar circumstances don't apply to GI. It will likely continue to be both a competitive and lucrative specialty over the foreseeable future.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by campy2010 »

Gpa and mcats are the main criteria for med school. Most high schoolers don’t think to ask about grading and curves when they’re comparing schools. I went to a flagship public university and the curve was pretty severe (every class at the university was curved to 2.8 out of 4.0) and made life hard for the pre-meds. Some could have gone to med school if the went to an easier grading university and lost their shot at the big state u.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by bsteiner »

campy2010 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:07 pm Gpa and mcats are the main criteria for med school. Most high schoolers don’t think to ask about grading and curves when they’re comparing schools. I went to a flagship public university and the curve was pretty severe (every class at the university was curved to 2.8 out of 4.0) and made life hard for the pre-meds. Some could have gone to med school if the went to an easier grading university and lost their shot at the big state u.
Does that mean that a student should go to a school one level below the one he/she would otherwise go to, to be the big fish in the little pond?
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by ram »

StevieG72 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:02 pm however she is a rising senior in high school.
Less than 5% of premed students end up as physicians.


How much does medical school cost?
25 to 55 K /yr tuition x 4 yrs. Living expenses extra.

How long will my child be in school to become a GI specialist?
Minimum 10 years after college.

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Papago
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by Papago »

Two women were walking through the forest when they hear this voice from under a log. Investigating, the women discovered the voice was coming from a frog:

"Help me, ladies! I am a young handsome doctor who, through an evil curse, has been transformed into a frog. If one of you will kiss me, I'll be returned to my former state, marry you and support you the rest of your life!"

The first woman took out her purse, grabbed the frog, and stuffed it inside her handbag. The second woman, aghast, screamed, "Didn't you hear him? If you kiss him, he'll turn into a doctor?"

The second woman replied, "Sure, but nowadays I figure I'm better off financially with a talking frog."
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by BernardShakey »

StevieG72 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:48 pm Thanks everyone for the replies!

A little more information for those that are interested...

My daughter has had exposer to some of the not so pleasant things medically as a patient. She has Crohn's disease and has had multiple hospitalizations, surgery, and is currently doing very well and is receiving great care from her doctors. We are fortunate and impressed with the level of care provided by our local children's hospital. (CHKD Norfolk Virgina, GREAT hospital!) This path has led to the GI specialist interest.

I agree more exposer is a great idea! Unfortunately volunteer opportunities have diminished due to Covid. Will definitely check out the summer exposer programs! I did not know they existed and we have asked about volunteer opportunities at numerous hospitals.

Lastly, I also realize that my child needs to figure out some of this stuff herself. More back story, neither Mom or Dad are college educated so we lack the experiences to share and lead our kiddo in the right direction. She is behind in some areas for example volunteering, partially due to ignorance and also due to her medical condition that was recently diagnosed and lastly Covid.

Thanks again for the information, I love the Boglehead community!
I'm not a physician but have offspring currently in medical school...in Virginia no less. Your daughter is definitely not behind when it comes to volunteer, research, and extra-curricular activities. There will be plenty of time for these important, but secondary elements. Freshman year is a time to adjust to college life and get the best grades possible. GPA (and MCAT) are critical and so focusing on academics should be her main priority as a freshman. If she is doing great, she can consider some clinical or community volunteering during the latter part of first year.

Couple pieces of advice:

1) encourage her to take a lighter load first semester as she is adjusting to college. A lot of pre-meds dive right in and then don't do well first semester which puts them behind the 8-ball early.

2) be judicious in selection of undergraduate school and major. Medical schools don't care a whole lot where you went to school or what you majored in, as long as you take the required science pre-reqs. Some schools are notorious for grade deflation, others for inflation. Some science major programs might have certain required courses that are extremely hard and can be avoided with a slightly different choice of major. Protect that GPA at all cost!

Good luck to your daughter!
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kenoryan
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by kenoryan »

My daughter did well in high school. GPA 4.0 and ACT 35.
She did her undergrad at UW Madison which is our state school. She was in the honors program there.
She lost her focus a bit in college and spent time partying and at football games etc. But she did graduate in 4 years with a GPA of 3.86. She had a scholarship and we paid $2500 a year for her tuition.
She worked Teach for America in Chicago for 2 years ( living in Lincoln Park, lifestyle totally subsidized by parents) and then took the MCAT. She got 34 out of 45. Its an average score. But she was lucky enough to be accepted to 6 medical schools and chose to go to UW Madison. She had a scholarship to Madison and we paid $20,000 a year. She chose to go to Oregon for residency. She was being paid $60,000 a year during residency for those 3 years, and we didnt have to help her much financially. And since she didnt have loans, there was no pressure.

So basically, you will have to pay for her 4 years of undergrad and 4 years of med school. Your daughter will get paid for her 3 years of residency and 3 years of GI fellowship. Many kids will change their mind in college. They will again change their mind in medical school as to what residency they want. You never know, she might end up doing plastic surgery or derm if she excels in med school. Or she might end up in family medicine if she's in the bottom half of her med school class. Too early to think about GI fellowships.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by BernardShakey »

kenoryan wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:05 pm My daughter did well in high school. GPA 4.0 and ACT 35.
She did her undergrad at UW Madison which is our state school. She was in the honors program there.
She lost her focus a bit in college and spent time partying and at football games etc. But she did graduate in 4 years with a GPA of 3.86. She had a scholarship and we paid $2500 a year for her tuition.
She worked Teach for America in Chicago for 2 years ( living in Lincoln Park, lifestyle totally subsidized by parents) and then took the MCAT. She got 34 out of 45. Its an average score. But she was lucky enough to be accepted to 6 medical schools and chose to go to UW Madison. She had a scholarship to Madison and we paid $20,000 a year. She chose to go to Oregon for residency. She was being paid $60,000 a year during residency for those 3 years, and we didnt have to help her much financially. And since she didnt have loans, there was no pressure.

So basically, you will have to pay for her 4 years of undergrad and 4 years of med school. Your daughter will get paid for her 3 years of residency and 3 years of GI fellowship. Many kids will change their mind in college. They will again change their mind in medical school as to what residency they want. You never know, she might end up doing plastic surgery or derm if she excels in med school. Or she might end up in family medicine if she's in the bottom half of her med school class. Too early to think about GI fellowships.
Some people in the top half of their class actually decide to go into family medicine / pediatrics.
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MedSaver
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by MedSaver »

kenoryan wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:05 pm My daughter did well in high school. GPA 4.0 and ACT 35.
She did her undergrad at UW Madison which is our state school. She was in the honors program there.
She lost her focus a bit in college and spent time partying and at football games etc. But she did graduate in 4 years with a GPA of 3.86. She had a scholarship and we paid $2500 a year for her tuition.
She worked Teach for America in Chicago for 2 years ( living in Lincoln Park, lifestyle totally subsidized by parents) and then took the MCAT. She got 34 out of 45. Its an average score. But she was lucky enough to be accepted to 6 medical schools and chose to go to UW Madison. She had a scholarship to Madison and we paid $20,000 a year. She chose to go to Oregon for residency. She was being paid $60,000 a year during residency for those 3 years, and we didnt have to help her much financially. And since she didnt have loans, there was no pressure.

So basically, you will have to pay for her 4 years of undergrad and 4 years of med school. Your daughter will get paid for her 3 years of residency and 3 years of GI fellowship. Many kids will change their mind in college. They will again change their mind in medical school as to what residency they want. You never know, she might end up doing plastic surgery or derm if she excels in med school. Or she might end up in family medicine if she's in the bottom half of her med school class. Too early to think about GI fellowships.
I think we should avoid denigrating primary care physicians. Being in the top half of the class doesn’t guarantee plastics and likewise being in the bottom half doesn’t “relegate” you to family medicine.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by unclescrooge »

StevieG72 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:48 pm Thanks everyone for the replies!

A little more information for those that are interested...

My daughter has had exposer to some of the not so pleasant things medically as a patient. She has Crohn's disease and has had multiple hospitalizations, surgery, and is currently doing very well and is receiving great care from her doctors. We are fortunate and impressed with the level of care provided by our local children's hospital. (CHKD Norfolk Virgina, GREAT hospital!) This path has led to the GI specialist interest.

I agree more exposer is a great idea! Unfortunately volunteer opportunities have diminished due to Covid. Will definitely check out the summer exposer programs! I did not know they existed and we have asked about volunteer opportunities at numerous hospitals.

Lastly, I also realize that my child needs to figure out some of this stuff herself. More back story, neither Mom or Dad are college educated so we lack the experiences to share and lead our kiddo in the right direction. She is behind in some areas for example volunteering, partially due to ignorance and also due to her medical condition that was recently diagnosed and lastly Covid.

Thanks again for the information, I love the Boglehead community!
Even if you were college educated, without a medical degree you would still be equally clueless. Just support your kid, help her figure out how to not graduate as an MD with $350k in debt and you will have done the best you can do for her.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by Waiting_for_Godot »

I'll share my experience as a former premed that got to the first year of medical school.

I'll definitely second the idea that most people will change their minds. I've been a mentor to other premeds; the majority end up on another path, so I wouldn't worry too much about the specifics involved with med school quite yet. Good grades/MCAT in college are key indicators to a potentially less miserable time in med school, as all of the tests required moving forward will be much worse (STEP 1, comes to mind, the major standardized test after the 2nd year of medical school).

My suggestion would be to encourage your child to stay open to what they might be interested in. I wish I wasn't so focused on aiming for pre-med... my favorite course in high school was econ, but I grew up poor and the allure of a stable, clear path kept me locked in. I've made bio BS + MS work within biotech with my most recent job, but it's tough to make a decent living without a PhD.

I thought I had done enough research, asked enough questions, shadowed enough docs, to know I wanted it. I worked as an EMT to try and get at least a taste of what it's like to be responsible for patients. It's when they throw you in the deep end, when you're stuck in your apartment cramming power point slides, and faced with a decade of grind, stress, and sleep deprivation... that's when you find out if you really want it. I did not, but at least the financial cost paid quenched any 'what if' type questions I may have had.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by obgraham »

I'll not rehash what everyone else here has said, except to reinforce that GPA and MCAT are paramount. And to add 2 points:
1. State medical schools tend to favor applicants who went to school in their state, especially their own university. Like it or not, it is a fact.
2. Don't take advice from those of us moaning about how bad medicine is, how much better it was in the old days, or how it'll just be a bunch of technicians in a few years. There will ALWAYS be a need for well trained doctors, and empathetic doctors who actually like their patients will ALWAYS do well. It's true in any specialty.
2b. We will always need both specialists and generalists.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by Young Boglehead »

As a current med student I'm nervous for people going into it for the following reasons:

•medical school often costs way too much
•too many specialties pay too little for all the time required
•people are very different at 22 than they are at 32
•the really high paying specialties or the ones with good work/life balance and pay are too competitive and cannot be counted on matching into

Run through the numbers with her to explain how long she'll NOT be making good money too
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by Young Boglehead »

kenoryan wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:05 pm My daughter did well in high school. GPA 4.0 and ACT 35.
She did her undergrad at UW Madison which is our state school. She was in the honors program there.
She lost her focus a bit in college and spent time partying and at football games etc. But she did graduate in 4 years with a GPA of 3.86. She had a scholarship and we paid $2500 a year for her tuition.
She worked Teach for America in Chicago for 2 years ( living in Lincoln Park, lifestyle totally subsidized by parents) and then took the MCAT. She got 34 out of 45. Its an average score. But she was lucky enough to be accepted to 6 medical schools and chose to go to UW Madison. She had a scholarship to Madison and we paid $20,000 a year. She chose to go to Oregon for residency. She was being paid $60,000 a year during residency for those 3 years, and we didnt have to help her much financially. And since she didnt have loans, there was no pressure.

So basically, you will have to pay for her 4 years of undergrad and 4 years of med school. Your daughter will get paid for her 3 years of residency and 3 years of GI fellowship. Many kids will change their mind in college. They will again change their mind in medical school as to what residency they want. You never know, she might end up doing plastic surgery or derm if she excels in med school. Or she might end up in family medicine if she's in the bottom half of her med school class. Too early to think about GI fellowships.

A 34 wasn’t an average score at all; that’s a 94th percentile and equal to about a 517 nowadays, which doesn’t really rule you out of any school even the most competitive ones.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by GmanJeff »

Many William & Mary graduates go on to medical school, providing an option beyond UVa for in-state tuition at a very respectable institution.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by stoptothink »

newinvestor1234321 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:17 pmI also highly recommend she goes to a highly ranked undergrad school. This will help in med school admissions. The two most important factors are by far GPA and MCAT - with any supplement of shadowing, volunteering, research, leadership, etc helping to round out a med school application. The last 4 are much easier than the former 2.
If GPA and MCAT are the two most important factors, followed by shadowing, volunteering, research, and leadership, why do you highly recommend they go to a highly ranked undergrad and how does it help with admissions :confused Anecdotally, I currently work with (7) physicians who went to 5 of the top 10 (U.S.) medical schools, not a single one when to a "highly ranked" school for undergrad. Four of them went to the same local public U that nobody outside of Utah has ever heard of, the other three: Utah State, UNLV, and BYU. My boss went to the top medical school in Canada (U of Toronto), after undergrad at BYU. I currently have 4 former employees in med school, including one at Stanford and another at Baylor (on a significant scholarship), and all of them also went to that no-name local public U. Unless it costs more or you are going to struggle getting the grades you need, it is unlikely to hurt, but I haven't seen much evidence (personally) that a highly ranked undergrad really helps you get into a top medical school (and then how much does a top med school help get you into a top residency?).
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by coalcracker »

I am a radiologist about 10 years out of training, my wife if a pediatrician, my brother is PM&R, and I have lots of doctor friends.

Most of the doctors I know seem pretty satisfied with their jobs, and most of them do well financially. However, this is far from the norm among all physicians based on what I hear and read on forums and social media groups. Trends of increased administrative burden, high medical school loans, corporate takeover of practices, and long work hours leads many to burnout. Whatever you can do to minimize her debt coming out of medical school will go a long way to giving her more options with what career she chooses and her ultimate financial success.

I didn't really have a particular passion toward medicine, just kind of stumbled into it after starting pre-med in college and liking "science." One thing I'm struck by is the wide variety of career paths one can take as a doctor. A few examples from doctors I know personally:

*Pediatric subacute rehab hospital doctor
*Pediatric electrophysiologist, one of two in the state. Has traveled to middle east for procedures
*Dermatology Moh's surgeon. Works a 2-3 days a week earning close to 7 figures/year
*Radiologist at neurology institute in Phoenix, 17 weeks vacation working full time, high compensation
*Public health doctor working for the CDC
*Urologist in a small coastal town in California
*Internist practicing wellness medicine virtually, husband is ED doctor, just moved to New Zealand with their family to work a few years
*Trained radiologist working for venture capital backed corporation which acquires radiology practices
*Radiologist working night shift, 7 days on, 14 days off all year.
*Pain medicine anesthesiologist doing injections and procedures all day long, also prescribes medical marijuana
*pediatric anesthesiologist specializing in heart transplant patients

You get the idea. I think it's a great career. No one knows what the future holds, but we will always need doctors in some capacity. Good luck!
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by Blue456 »

StevieG72 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:02 pm So I will preface my post with I am smart enough to know, that I don’t know what I don’t know!
Two doctors here (wife is a doc too). Nobody ever asked us on interview what undergraduate school we went to. Save money and send your kid to least expensive state school. Same goes for medical school, peak the least expensive one. Nobody cares. There is huge demand for doctors in the country. All that matters is that you are licensed. The difference in loans can be huge. My wife ended with 100k less than me. We are both early in our careers and already planning to go part time so having 100k less in debt would have been nice.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by TexasPE »

Raymond wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:20 pm Has she done volunteer work in a hospital or clinic?

If it turns out that she can't or won't tolerate the sights and smells involved, then everything else is moot.

Particularly if she wants to go into GI...

I had a classmate in my PA program who left at the end of the first year because he realized he "didn't want to be around sick people." :confused
+1

Relative changed from RN program to General Studies (as a senior! :oops: ) because she didn't like the sights and smells....
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by calmaniac »

Both the U.S. Public Health Service as well the big 3 branches of the military will pay for medical school (obviously with a payback by serving). Worth considering if this is an issue.

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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by newinvestor1234321 »

If GPA and MCAT are the two most important factors, followed by shadowing, volunteering, research, and leadership, why do you highly recommend they go to a highly ranked undergrad and how does it help with admissions :confused Anecdotally, I currently work with (7) physicians who went to 5 of the top 10 (U.S.) medical schools, not a single one when to a "highly ranked" school for undergrad. Four of them went to the same local public U that nobody outside of Utah has ever heard of, the other three: Utah State, UNLV, and BYU. My boss went to the top medical school in Canada (U of Toronto), after undergrad at BYU. I currently have 4 former employees in med school, including one at Stanford and another at Baylor (on a significant scholarship), and all of them also went to that no-name local public U. Unless it costs more or you are going to struggle getting the grades you need, it is unlikely to hurt, but I haven't seen much evidence (personally) that a highly ranked undergrad really helps you get into a top medical school (and then how much does a top med school help get you into a top residency?).
[/quote]

So I am biased because of my personal experience, but I also had the choice to attend the state university (not as good as UVA) or attend a very highly ranked college. I choose to take the extra loans and attend the "better" academic school.

I came from a high school where I graduated top 1% of my class with little effort - from a massive, not academically great public school in a state with below-average education. Freshman year of college was extremely difficult and it took a huge amount of adapting.

The first time I ever met someone smarter than me was at this top ranked college. I remember sitting in certain classes between students who ended up MD/PhD at Hopkins, Harvard, etc. These peers really challenged me and I learned work ethic and how to think critically in a way that I don't think my high school friends (who were similar to me in high school) but went to state university ever learned. The critical thinking skills I learned in organic chem, physical chem, differential equations, advanced calculus, et. made the critical thinking I saw in med school seem like a breeze. The only challenging thing at that point was the sheer volume to learn, but I had already mastered the time management and study skills in undergrad because I wasn't the smartest one there or even close.

This translated to me being accepted to 80% of the med schools I applied to. I did great academically in med school and it was an easy transition with great board scores into a top residency program. Which made transition to fellowship and then a great job a breeze. I'm not sure I would be in the same career had I never been "pushed" in undergrad and gone to local state U where the easy A's kept on coming with minimal effort.

If I attended local state U and the difference would probably be 10M+ plus additional earning power over the course of my career (assuming health stays good). It was the right decision for me and many others (who I keep in touch with from undergrad) were not only accepted to top med schools but also now thriving in top programs and careers.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by kenoryan »

MedSaver wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:39 am
kenoryan wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:05 pm My daughter did well in high school. GPA 4.0 and ACT 35.
She did her undergrad at UW Madison which is our state school. She was in the honors program there.
She lost her focus a bit in college and spent time partying and at football games etc. But she did graduate in 4 years with a GPA of 3.86. She had a scholarship and we paid $2500 a year for her tuition.
She worked Teach for America in Chicago for 2 years ( living in Lincoln Park, lifestyle totally subsidized by parents) and then took the MCAT. She got 34 out of 45. Its an average score. But she was lucky enough to be accepted to 6 medical schools and chose to go to UW Madison. She had a scholarship to Madison and we paid $20,000 a year. She chose to go to Oregon for residency. She was being paid $60,000 a year during residency for those 3 years, and we didnt have to help her much financially. And since she didnt have loans, there was no pressure.

So basically, you will have to pay for her 4 years of undergrad and 4 years of med school. Your daughter will get paid for her 3 years of residency and 3 years of GI fellowship. Many kids will change their mind in college. They will again change their mind in medical school as to what residency they want. You never know, she might end up doing plastic surgery or derm if she excels in med school. Or she might end up in family medicine if she's in the bottom half of her med school class. Too early to think about GI fellowships.
I think we should avoid denigrating primary care physicians. Being in the top half of the class doesn’t guarantee plastics and likewise being in the bottom half doesn’t “relegate” you to family medicine.
You're right on both points. But I stand by my statement that most plastic and derm come from the top and family med come from the bottom half. Of course, we all know in our personal lives of exceptions to this rule. I'm not denigrating. Just stating facts. Also, many people say they went to PA school because they didn't want to go to medical school, whereas most people who went to PA school did not actually get into medical school. It's just a fact.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by Bradley37 »

Young Boglehead wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:39 am As a current med student I'm nervous for people going into it for the following reasons:

•medical school often costs way too much
•too many specialties pay too little for all the time required
•people are very different at 22 than they are at 32
•the really high paying specialties or the ones with good work/life balance and pay are too competitive and cannot be counted on matching into

Run through the numbers with her to explain how long she'll NOT be making good money too
This is so true.
I was an ER Physician who dropped out after 5 years. I was miserable enough to say "enough". I was lucky to have no debt. Looking back, i didn't have any regrets. If i have debt, it might have been different.

Your kid might have a different view in 4 years. Good luck.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by jeam3131 »

Doctors are often viewed as sacrificial lambs in society today. They are also being threatened with annual reimbursement cuts. This is occurring separate from inflation. Throw into the fire all the scope creep with physician assistants and nurse practioners lobbying aggressively for independent practice and equal pay, the prospect of being a physician 10 years from now is looking bleak.
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by White Coat Investor »

livesoft wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:05 pm The two physicians in my family earned undergraduate degrees from UVA. That's an anecdote.

I'd leave it up to your child to find out all the answers to your questions and just wouldn't worry about it at all myself.
That's really good advice!

At any rate, 4 years of med school, 3 years of residency, 3 years of fellowship. School will cost between $200 and $300K.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by White Coat Investor »

JPM wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:36 pm A young man or woman who loves science and remains a sincere humanitarian will be happy in the work. To maintain skill requires a lifetime of study, as it does in other learned professions. Love of science and natural curiosity make the studying enjoyable rather than an unwelcome burden.

For the women, the long training period and its required night work and irregular hours may interfere with or delay mating and family life. For this reason some very bright young women who would have been capable physicians choose to pursue careers as PAs in order to be free to marry and have children earlier in life, particularly if they have a coherent plan for forming a family before finishing undergrad. The PA does similar work to the physician, accepts less (but still very good) pay and the need for supervision in most cases.

My training is decades in the past, so I cannot speak to the contemporary med school and post-doc training milieu.

Two now-retired colleagues had long successful careers as lady gastro specialists in community practice and been happy in it and were able to combine it with successful family lives. Terrific women blessed with good (and lucky) husbands. The work is interesting, can be varied, well-remunerated, and the main drawback is being susceptible to being called out for emergencies at all hours, usually related to gastrointestinal hemorrhages. Apart from that, you can work as much or as little as your partners will tolerate and adjust your effort in accord with that tolerance and the demands of family life. Really important to have good partners and a good husband to pull that off successfully. I don't know the young lady gastros well enough to comment on their views.

I agree with the above post regarding the high attrition among undergrad pre-meds and the crucial nature of perseverance. Taking a masters degree and reapplying to med school following rejection when applying as an undergrad was common among my undergrad friends. Those guys were really determined and have had successful careers in medicine. More undergrad freshmen premeds became lawyers than doctors among my undergrad classmates.
It's not very PC to talk about this, but it's certainly very true in my area of the country. There's a new paper out this month showing surgeons are twice as likely to miscarry and yes, it controlled for age, work hours, and use of IVF.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course
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Re: Calling all doctors, kid wants to be a doctor!?

Post by MrsBDG »

GPA & MCAT are critical gatekeepers. Planning her class schedule to allow for the most success is smart, protecting the GPA is more difficult than one might expect, even a succession A-, which feel pretty good at the time, will steadily drop the GPA. Many schools want to see that the student has made efforts to have a clue what they are getting themselves into, though really, shadowing/volunteering does not really show you what to expect.

College Confidential pre-med topics forum has good individual advice. SDN forum has good technical details, but be careful reading posts from pre-meds, there is a lot of hype and fear there.

My kid is an MD and I would say the critical point in her process was to figure out how to do it all her way, not blindly following the info sheet and advice given at her flagship state university. Our advice to her, since she was initially unsure of her career goal, was to take the program that would allow her to follow the most rigorous program, she could always apply to something with fewer requirements, but we never told her she should be a doctor or anything like that, it needed to be her choice, as she is the one who has to live the life.

Don't be afraid to not fall in line with some perceived advice to do XYZ in a certain order, an instruction that you "must do this in the summer' etc. One can graduate from university and live life for a while and then go to med school, you don't have to apply junior year.
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