Switching Career Fields

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oldfort
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Switching Career Fields

Post by oldfort »

Delete

Edit: Thanks to everyone who replied.
Last edited by oldfort on Sat Aug 28, 2021 4:08 pm, edited 4 times in total.
pseudoiterative
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by pseudoiterative »

People may be able to offer you more helpful advice if you explain what your goals are, what you would prefer in a career and what you wish to steer clear of.
RJC
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by RJC »

oldfort wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:37 am I'm a career federal employee right now and without going into management in my org, my salary is basically capped where it is right now at about 100k. I'm turning 40 and wondering if it can make sense to try to retrain for a different career: IT certs, coding bootcamps? Alternatively, am I old enough it makes sense to ride the job out until retirement? I can start collecting a pension at 57, which is only 17 years away. My career has been in the intelligence community, so doesn't translate to any jobs in the private sector for a lot of reasons, unless you want to go become a government contractor.
Are you on the GS schedule? I have seen non-supervisory staff reach to GS-15 which is about 172k.
HyperCat
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by HyperCat »

If your primary goal is salary, you're probably best off where you are now. It seems every post like this mentions switching careers into tech by doing a bootcamp. My personal take is that the idea of going to a boot camp for a few weeks then landing a unicorn role making $200k+ a year is the great gold rush/myth of our time. And everyone is pursuing it.

More likely, you'll pay thousands for the bootcamp, end up competing with everyone else who went to bootcamp plus everyone with traditional tech degrees for an entry level job, and wind up slowly climbing the ladder up from $50-100k, similar to your current situation. Given those choices, I'd stick it out with your already respectable salary in a field you're established in.

Again, that's my response if all you care about is salary. If you're burned out and looking for a change, then maybe it's worth pursuing something new regardless of the money.
rhubarbpie
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by rhubarbpie »

Man, I wish I still lived in a world where $100k was 'not enough'. I think HyperCat has the right of it. Your salary is quite good, you've got a pension upcoming, good benefits and retirement plan options, and presumably decent work/life balance. Tech can be, and often is, inconsistent, ridiculous hours, sub-par benefits if you work for a startup, and not always as much money as you might think.

But if you like coding, why not teach yourself some, learn some programming languages, get involved in an open-source project, or whatever sounds interesting. It doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing deal. Dip your toe in and see what interests you and what you're good at.

(Side note: there is a ton of growth in cyber security right now, so if your current background translates to that at all, you may not even need to retrain to get a gig.)
deikel
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by deikel »

what is your actual background ? IT, ENG, scientist of sorts ?

what do you do in intelligence ? data analysis, picture analysis, translation, IT, security systems think about what translates as skill to the open market

It doe snot have to be an all or nothing, you can acquire IT skills or programming or whatever that might be useful for your current career AND maybe a step stone for a jump off the wagon - trying to do new stuff might also help with motivation in your current role (or at least acceptance) in order to ride it out

Otherwise, 17 years of misery and unhappiness seems a rather long time to endure - a 12 month slog is doable
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quantAndHold
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by quantAndHold »

Unless you’re an extraordinary human being, jobs that can be had with just a coding bootcamp top out at around $100k, after several years of work experience. If you really want to move into software development, a masters degree in computer science is a much more useful path. It’s also more work. The most likely outcome is a career path that starts at $80-90k, and tops out at $160-170k.

When you’re considering a federal job vs a private sector job, you have to take the benefits into account. Pension, healthcare, time off, are all worth a considerable amount of money, and are much worse in the private sector. In terms of total compensation, you’re doing just fine. My dad was a federal employee. In terms of raw salary, I was making more than he ever did by the time I was 30. But he retired at 62 to a comfortable pension with lifetime health insurance that I can only dream about. I’m on my own for all of that.

If you really want a raise, then your choices are probably to go into management, or to become a govt contractor. As a contractor though, at your age and with your experience, unless you get on a management track, you’re probably going to quickly top out there too. And you’re doing the salary/benefits trade off. People’s careers do start topping out in their 40’s. Unless you’re moving up into management, there aren’t very many more steps on the ladder.

If you’re bored, you might start looking at lateral moves you could make. The money won’t be any better, but you might find something more interesting to do.

Personally, I discovered that I enjoyed managing people, which apparently makes me unusual.
Firemenot
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by Firemenot »

How about going into an area of sales that taps into your background? Making more than 100K in sales is generally not much of an issue.
Topic Author
oldfort
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by oldfort »

RJC wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:24 am
oldfort wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:37 am I'm a career federal employee right now and without going into management in my org, my salary is basically capped where it is right now at about 100k. I'm turning 40 and wondering if it can make sense to try to retrain for a different career: IT certs, coding bootcamps? Alternatively, am I old enough it makes sense to ride the job out until retirement? I can start collecting a pension at 57, which is only 17 years away. My career has been in the intelligence community, so doesn't translate to any jobs in the private sector for a lot of reasons, unless you want to go become a government contractor.
Are you on the GS schedule? I have seen non-supervisory staff reach to GS-15 which is about 172k.
GS equivalent pay scale. Virtually all GS-14 and GS-15 positions are management roles at my agency.
OpenMinded1
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by OpenMinded1 »

oldfort wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:28 pm
RJC wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:24 am
oldfort wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:37 am I'm a career federal employee right now and without going into management in my org, my salary is basically capped where it is right now at about 100k. I'm turning 40 and wondering if it can make sense to try to retrain for a different career: IT certs, coding bootcamps? Alternatively, am I old enough it makes sense to ride the job out until retirement? I can start collecting a pension at 57, which is only 17 years away. My career has been in the intelligence community, so doesn't translate to any jobs in the private sector for a lot of reasons, unless you want to go become a government contractor.
Are you on the GS schedule? I have seen non-supervisory staff reach to GS-15 which is about 172k.
GS equivalent pay scale. Virtually all GS-14 and GS-15 positions are management roles at my agency.
I haven't seen anything above GS-12 that was non-supervisory.
RJC
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by RJC »

OpenMinded1 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:45 pm
oldfort wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:28 pm
RJC wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:24 am
oldfort wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:37 am I'm a career federal employee right now and without going into management in my org, my salary is basically capped where it is right now at about 100k. I'm turning 40 and wondering if it can make sense to try to retrain for a different career: IT certs, coding bootcamps? Alternatively, am I old enough it makes sense to ride the job out until retirement? I can start collecting a pension at 57, which is only 17 years away. My career has been in the intelligence community, so doesn't translate to any jobs in the private sector for a lot of reasons, unless you want to go become a government contractor.
Are you on the GS schedule? I have seen non-supervisory staff reach to GS-15 which is about 172k.
GS equivalent pay scale. Virtually all GS-14 and GS-15 positions are management roles at my agency.
I haven't seen anything above GS-12 that was non-supervisory.
It probably differs by agency. At HHS, non-supervisory GS13/14s are common with a few folks in each super-office as a GS15 (senior advisors).
NabSh
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by NabSh »

If you are in a Fed IC position, what is your area of expertise?

You can go for cyber security or data analyst position. A cyber job could lead to threat monitoring or hunting. This will require certification. If you have clearance, you can go and work for Fed Contractor.

Data analyst will require some sort of programming in R or Python.

Whatever you do , please do not go to a 12 or 24 week boot camp. They are useless. Unless you already have a programming experience.

If you want to be a software engineer (SE) You can either do a second bachelor's or go for Masters. These days a fresh SE starts between $80-120K depending on school.

Please let me know if you have any questions.
almostretired1965
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by almostretired1965 »

oldfort wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:37 am I'm a career federal employee right now and without going into management in my org, my salary is basically capped where it is right now at about 100k. I'm turning 40 and wondering if it can make sense to try to retrain for a different career: IT certs, coding bootcamps? Alternatively, am I old enough it makes sense to ride the job out until retirement? I can start collecting a pension at 57, which is only 17 years away. My career has been in the intelligence community, so doesn't translate to any jobs in the private sector for a lot of reasons, unless you want to go become a government contractor. Aside from pay, I’m fairly frustrated with the way the government and the IC in particular operates.
What is it exactly that you do in the IC? An experienced and competent IT contractor (SWE, data science, info sec) with TS-SCI tickets (particularly with poly) can probably get upwards of $200K these days. Other than as a summer intern after high school and freshmen year in college, I've never worked directly for the fed government, but I have moved multiple time into and out of defense/IC over the course of my career. But the foundation of my skill set (mathmatical modeling and data analysis/wrangling) is not domain specific. If yours is, I don't think it makes sense to start over. You need to figure out how to leverage it properly to higher "value added" parts of the IC.
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oldfort
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by oldfort »

almostretired1965 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:03 pm What is it exactly that you do in the IC?
Not going to be too specific in answering this question on an unclassified and public forum. I don't do anything IT or cyber related now. I don't do any programming or mathematical modeling. At a generic level, you might describe a lot of my job as being a middleman between different parts of the government bureaucracy.
Last edited by oldfort on Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Topic Author
oldfort
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by oldfort »

quantAndHold wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:55 pm When you’re considering a federal job vs a private sector job, you have to take the benefits into account. Pension, healthcare, time off, are all worth a considerable amount of money, and are much worse in the private sector. In terms of total compensation, you’re doing just fine. My dad was a federal employee. In terms of raw salary, I was making more than he ever did by the time I was 30. But he retired at 62 to a comfortable pension with lifetime health insurance that I can only dream about. I’m on my own for all of that.
FERS gives a benefit based on years of service times one percent of your high three salary. If I stayed till 57, I would expect a pension of about $34k a year in today's dollars.
123
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by 123 »

If you do a major career switch at age 40 (or more) you may have to face the "paying your dues" time for five or more years to build some experience and creditability in your new field. The end result will be is that you may always be 10 to 15 years or more older than most of your contemporaries in the new field, all other things being equal (unless you advance to management quickly and stay there). That age difference can affect your relationships with your co-workers and how well you bond with them (if at all).
The closest helping hand is at the end of your own arm.
brad.clarkston
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by brad.clarkston »

No not a good idea. You would be better off changing to any field but IT especially programming.

For starters a bootcamp will not teach you anything needed for a entry level dev job.
Second you will be facing a field saturated with H1-B Visa candidates who will have a full CS BS plus be willing to work for $45k a year.

Your better off staying within the federal system at this point. It's pretty normal for people to transfer in out and out multiple agencies in there career.
My wife could not get a GS13 with NOAA so she moved back to the Army Core of Eng's to get it. In a few years she will be looking for a GS14 at a different agency.
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OpenMinded1
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by OpenMinded1 »

RJC wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:24 pm
OpenMinded1 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:45 pm
oldfort wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:28 pm
RJC wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:24 am
oldfort wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:37 am I'm a career federal employee right now and without going into management in my org, my salary is basically capped where it is right now at about 100k. I'm turning 40 and wondering if it can make sense to try to retrain for a different career: IT certs, coding bootcamps? Alternatively, am I old enough it makes sense to ride the job out until retirement? I can start collecting a pension at 57, which is only 17 years away. My career has been in the intelligence community, so doesn't translate to any jobs in the private sector for a lot of reasons, unless you want to go become a government contractor.
Are you on the GS schedule? I have seen non-supervisory staff reach to GS-15 which is about 172k.
GS equivalent pay scale. Virtually all GS-14 and GS-15 positions are management roles at my agency.
I haven't seen anything above GS-12 that was non-supervisory.
It probably differs by agency. At HHS, non-supervisory GS13/14s are common with a few folks in each super-office as a GS15 (senior advisors).
Yes it probably varies from agency to agency. I don't want to say which agency I'm referring to, and worked for.
Topic Author
oldfort
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by oldfort »

HyperCat wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:36 am Again, that's my response if all you care about is salary. If you're burned out and looking for a change, then maybe it's worth pursuing something new regardless of the money.
It's 50% salary/50% burned out on the job/IC.
delamer
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by delamer »

oldfort wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:13 pm
HyperCat wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:36 am Again, that's my response if all you care about is salary. If you're burned out and looking for a change, then maybe it's worth pursuing something new regardless of the money.
It's 50% salary/50% burned out on the job/IC.
You can start an new career. The question is how much time/money are you willing to invest in training? And how much of a short-term pay cut (and for how long) are willing to take to make the change?

Do you have an undergrad degree?
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
Topic Author
oldfort
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by oldfort »

delamer wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:27 pm Do you have an undergrad degree?
yes
delamer
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by delamer »

oldfort wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:31 pm
delamer wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:27 pm Do you have an undergrad degree?
yes
In?
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
Topic Author
oldfort
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by oldfort »

delamer wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:38 pm
oldfort wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:31 pm
delamer wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:27 pm Do you have an undergrad degree?
yes
In?
EE
JDonaghy
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by JDonaghy »

I made a similar move from military at 30 to non-defense industry. I don't think i realized how hard it would be. Still feel behind other people my age who have been doing same thing for years. In retrospect, I would have stayed in defense industry.

Don't understand if your motivation is purely financial.

Read thread on here about losing a job in your 50s and then think about your current job security

Recs are
1) Understand your skillset - not sure what it is here, doesnt sound technical - and your motivations and objectives. Don't do something purely for money, or bc everyone else is trying to do it.
2) Try to move up or around in gov. If you are in DC surely you can move around
3) Go to a government contractor like Booz Allen. If you spend a few years there and do a good job you can move into other roles to learn new skills. So it may take a few job moves but in 5-10 years you could be doing something different, making more...but doenst require discarding all current knowledge.
delamer
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by delamer »

oldfort wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:48 pm
delamer wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:38 pm
oldfort wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:31 pm
delamer wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:27 pm Do you have an undergrad degree?
yes
In?
EE
With your math background, you could get a graduate degree in statistics. That would get you a federal job with one of the statistical agencies where you’d reach a GS-13 level within a few years.

Or if you wanted to go private, there is a big demand for math skills.

As you know, there’s a lot of innumeracy out there. People who can do even moderately advanced math have lots of options. But you need the training.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
Topic Author
oldfort
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by oldfort »

JDonaghy wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:50 pm Don't understand if your motivation is purely financial.
A combination of financial and the accumulated effect of being burned out by a lot of aspects of the job: waiting multiple years for approval to have a commercial software program installed on my computer and multiple years isn't an exaggeration, not allowed to have a cell phone or headphones at work, no windows, random drug testing, IT which is barely functional, endless mandatory training, no possibility of telework, polygraphs, etc. A lot of the job is rote and repetitive: ex. reviewing documents to check the classification applied to every paragraph.
1) Understand your skillset - not sure what it is here, doesnt sound technical - and your motivations and objectives. Don't do something purely for money, or bc everyone else is trying to do it.
There's nothing technical in the least about my job. Other than years of experience, there's nothing fundamentally different between what I do and what any of the E-3s in the room do.
Last edited by oldfort on Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:38 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Topic Author
oldfort
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by oldfort »

123 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:58 pm That age difference can affect your relationships with your co-workers and how well you bond with them (if at all).
I don't see age as having a large effect on relationships with coworkers. My section has people ranging in age from their teens to their sixties. Sure, we'll talk about who won last night's game, but I don't see any of my coworkers outside of work.
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oldfort
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by oldfort »

NabSh wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:41 pm If you are in a Fed IC position, what is your area of expertise?
Not doing any data analyst, programming, or cyber work now. All the expertise relevant to my job is classified.
Topic Author
oldfort
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by oldfort »

pseudoiterative wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:02 am People may be able to offer you more helpful advice if you explain what your goals are, what you would prefer in a career and what you wish to steer clear of.
Goals to find:
1) any job not in, supporting, or connected to the intelligence community and 2) more money

So the primary goal would be to find something completely unrelated to my current career.
Yellowjacket1
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by Yellowjacket1 »

Don’t sell yourself short. Depending upon your security clearance, you could be much more valuable than you might think. If you have any writing skills you could work in proposal department of major companies doing business with DoD, Homeland Security, etc. if you are willing to travel/live abroad or speak another language, there might be more opportunities out there than you might think. As someone who used to work for DoD, I certainly understand the frustration of working with the federal government. For me, leaving to go into the private sector was one of my better decisions.
Topic Author
oldfort
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by oldfort »

Yellowjacket1 wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:20 pm if you are willing to travel/live abroad or speak another language,
zero foreign language skills
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oldfort
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by oldfort »

deikel wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:31 pm what is your actual background ? IT, ENG, scientist of sorts ?

what do you do in intelligence ? data analysis, picture analysis, translation, IT, security systems think about what translates as skill to the open market
Don't have any job skills now which translate to an open market. I'm not doing IT, data analysis, programming, or translation now. I manage the flow of information requests within the government bureaucracy. Can't say much more at an unclassified level.
smitcat
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by smitcat »

oldfort wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:02 pm
pseudoiterative wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:02 am People may be able to offer you more helpful advice if you explain what your goals are, what you would prefer in a career and what you wish to steer clear of.
Goals to find:
1) any job not in, supporting, or connected to the intelligence community and 2) more money

So the primary goal would be to find something completely unrelated to my current career.
Start your own business on the side and grow it as large as you like.
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oldfort
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by oldfort »

brad.clarkston wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:17 pm No not a good idea. You would be better off changing to any field but IT especially programming.

For starters a bootcamp will not teach you anything needed for a entry level dev job.
Second you will be facing a field saturated with H1-B Visa candidates who will have a full CS BS plus be willing to work for $45k a year.

Your better off staying within the federal system at this point. It's pretty normal for people to transfer in out and out multiple agencies in there career.
My wife could not get a GS13 with NOAA so she moved back to the Army Core of Eng's to get it. In a few years she will be looking for a GS14 at a different agency.
What would be a good agency to switch to for a fresh start? Not that it would be relevant anyway, but it wouldn't be possible to discuss anything meaningful about prior work experience in the federal government due to security classification and need-to-know restrictions during an unclassified interview.
smitcat
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by smitcat »

oldfort wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:02 pm
brad.clarkston wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:17 pm No not a good idea. You would be better off changing to any field but IT especially programming.

For starters a bootcamp will not teach you anything needed for a entry level dev job.
Second you will be facing a field saturated with H1-B Visa candidates who will have a full CS BS plus be willing to work for $45k a year.

Your better off staying within the federal system at this point. It's pretty normal for people to transfer in out and out multiple agencies in there career.
My wife could not get a GS13 with NOAA so she moved back to the Army Core of Eng's to get it. In a few years she will be looking for a GS14 at a different agency.
What would be a good agency to switch to for a fresh start? Not that it would be relevant anyway, but it wouldn't be possible to discuss anything meaningful about prior work experience in the federal government due to security classification and need-to-know restrictions during an unclassified interview.
Perhaps ask folks that have left your own area for others over the years.
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oldfort
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by oldfort »

smitcat wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:01 pm Perhaps ask folks that have left your own area for others over the years.
I don't see this a lot. Sure, there's a revolving door between contractor and civilian at a particular agency. People trade in their blue badges for green badges and vice versa, sometimes without changing what cube they sit at. People will move around within an agency and sometimes between IC agencies. There's attrition with some recent college grads. Most of the people with 10+ years in the IC and without hard, sought after technical skills end up staying in the IC until they are eligible or ready for retirement.
delamer
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Re: Switching Career Fields

Post by delamer »

oldfort wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:40 pm
smitcat wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:01 pm Perhaps ask folks that have left your own area for others over the years.
I don't see this a lot. Sure, there's a revolving door between contractor and civilian at a particular agency. People trade in their blue badges for green badges and vice versa, sometimes without changing what cube they sit at. People will move around within an agency and sometimes between IC agencies. There's attrition with some recent college grads. Most of the people with 10+ years in the IC and without hard, sought after technical skills end up staying in the IC until they are eligible or ready for retirement.
That being the case, then it seems you are going to need some specific training to move out of your field. And realistically, making a change in careers means that you’ll have some years where your income is below what you bring in now.

Only you can decide if that’s a tradeoff you are willing to make. If you change occupations within the government, at least you’ll keep seniority and benefits.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
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