Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

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Veaselhaufen
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Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by Veaselhaufen »

I unknowingly chose a medical specialty which unfortunately is experiencing an explosion in supply of physicians due to increased training programs sponsored by private equity groups. Forecasts about the future in my field are grim, with already declining job prospects and pay. Unfortunately there are very few available options to retrain into another specialty.

I enjoy medicine and hope to continue practicing it but Im also fearful that I may need to make an quick exit in the future. My specialty also does not have good long term sustainablility even when supply/demand is in its favor. I desire to continue working at some level for the next 20 years assuming that I enjoy what Im doing. I have been fortunate thus far and have no remaining educational debt and ~20x expenses saved

How does one go about finding alternative careers as a physician? I live near a major tech hub and am wondering if there is demand in tech for hiring physicians and how to find out about these opportunities?
X528
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by X528 »

What is your medical specialty?
Living Free
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by Living Free »

I'm curious as to what medical specialty this is - are you comfortable sharing or do you prefer to keep it private?
Topic Author
Veaselhaufen
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by Veaselhaufen »

Emergency Medicine
runner3081
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by runner3081 »

Insurance company as a medical reviewer? Many of these are remote.
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

If you don't want your pay cut to 1/6 what it is now, do a fellowship in an area where there's demand.
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regularguy455
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by regularguy455 »

Take a look at clinical research. There are lots of former practicing physicians in this field.
Inframan4712
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by Inframan4712 »

Veaselhaufen wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:47 am Emergency Medicine
Critical Care fellowship? Only if you’re interested.

Or go abroad and work.
We're wolves
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by We're wolves »

check out one of the SEAK seminars. They have many directed to non-clinical careers for physicians. Or just peruse the information on their website.

https://seak.com/
tenkuky
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by tenkuky »

Veaselhaufen wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:34 am I unknowingly chose a medical specialty which unfortunately is experiencing an explosion in supply of physicians due to increased training programs sponsored by private equity groups.
I don't understand this part. Training programs accredited by the ACGME don't just suddenly increase. It takes a while to apply, get accredited and usually these are affiliated with educational institutions and training hospitals/sites. They have strict requirements for number of faculty, patient: trainee ratio, facilities, etc.
How does private equity come into play (unless you mean they are buying up hospitals/sites and then dictating work descriptions)? PE can't just qualify to apply for a new ACGME accredited EM program.
smitcat
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by smitcat »

It appears that many emergency physicians are aging out leaving openings especially in rural areas, perhaps location has much to do with what you are seeing.
Here is a link to that article...

https://www.healthleadersmedia.com/clin ... eport-says
bi0hazard
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by bi0hazard »

OP :

I hope this is not just "doom and gloom", b/c there's *always* doom and gloom in medicine. [OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek] Additionally, as far as I know, specialist reimbursements have only gone *down* over the past 10+ years (which may contribute to lowering income), although I don't know about ER.

Actionably, I think the most obvious choice is changing specialty. Switching to psychiatry used to be popular when I was in the know, but not sure about it now ( and you may take a huge salary hit). If I was in your shoes, I'd start cold calling tech and pharma companies, and "network"; I believe that may be the best way to transition into a cush ( non-medicine) job. I could be completely wrong here, but it seems like knowing the right person will get you into the door, and after that you should be set.

More bizarre choice would be to do law. I've see md -> jd and jd -> md moves, but that seems like a huge hassle.
Disclaimer: I'm not very smart, and this is just my hypothesis.
anoop
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by anoop »

How old you are and how many years of experience do you have?

Pretty sure there are lots of techies who think they might have been better off if they were a physician. The glamor jobs of tech are not as common as they appear. It is extremely competitive and you're competing against a global workforce (unlike physicians where you compete with local talent). You could also look into joining a concierge practice that isolates itself from insurance and provides a higher level of service.

That said, if you must make a switch, I would recommend doing something where you can leverage your current skills. Some areas you could look into are working for a pharmaceutical company or clinical studies provider, biomedical device company, medical software/systems provider, etc.
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by KingRiggs »

My anesthesia residency program would routinely give 6 months credit for someone who had completed a residency. You could knock out an anesthesia residency in 2.5 years, and be back to work (and currently in high demand).
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novemberrain
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by novemberrain »

:sharebeer
Last edited by novemberrain on Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bltn
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by bltn »

KingRiggs wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:32 am My anesthesia residency program would routinely give 6 months credit for someone who had completed a residency. You could knock out an anesthesia residency in 2.5 years, and be back to work (and currently in high demand).
Having two children currently finishing medical residencies, I feel qualified to comment.

Two and a half years of residency with its long hours and low pay should test ones resolve to change fields.
manuvns
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by manuvns »

is 95k kids enrolled in med programs a lot ? i thought there was a shortage of family medicide docs .

https://www.aamc.org/media/6101/download
Thanks!
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by Sam_957 »

Another OP mentioned he had gotten into data science related to medicine - and alluded to some good pay. Could be something worth checking out if you are interested in programming and statistics.
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srt7
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by srt7 »

anoop wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:24 am How old you are and how many years of experience do you have?

Pretty sure there are lots of techies who think they might have been better off if they were a physician. The glamor jobs of tech are not as common as they appear. It is extremely competitive and you're competing against a global workforce (unlike physicians where you compete with local talent). You could also look into joining a concierge practice that isolates itself from insurance and provides a higher level of service.

That said, if you must make a switch, I would recommend doing something where you can leverage your current skills. Some areas you could look into are working for a pharmaceutical company or clinical studies provider, biomedical device company, medical software/systems provider, etc.
In addition to what anoop said please choose a profession with a high barrier to entry (MS/MD/PhD etc. required) with some level of protection (bar exam etc.) from the concerning professional organizations. Last thing you want is to be competing with rebels who think college education is a scam and they're on the same level because they went to a bootcamp :annoyed
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Cruise
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by Cruise »

OP: While you may be in a field in which large PE employers are setting reimbursement rates, every medical provider’s rates are truly influenced by CMS and filtered by insurance companies. So pressure will be felt throughout medicine.

Want some more control over your life: Go to a rural area and be a family doc. You might get some patients who want to pay you with chicken eggs, but you will be far away from PE control.
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Veaselhaufen
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by Veaselhaufen »

There are a lot of good thoughts above. In general, Im getting the feeling that one is not going to land a high paying nonclinical job for a physician by waiting for a job posting on indeed. Like many other things it likely depends on connections and word of mouth, if such a job exists at all.

The forecoming emergency medicine job shortage is described on other sites in great detail. The short of it is that there used to be a large shortage of ER doctors which caused pay to escalate to unsustainably high levels for doctors who were willing to work in understaffed areas. This was during the era when I joined the specialty. PE backed physician staffing groups combatted this by starting a flurry of new residencies (there are almost twice as many residency spots now as 12 years ago) as well as recruited a a herd of NP/PA’s which overcompensated for the previous doctor shortage. Our professional society predicts 20-30% excess ER doctors to jobs by 2030.

Yes PE backed staffing groups back start residencies all the time. If they meet ACGME requirements (which apparently is pretty easy in Emergency Medicine) then there isnt any professional organization that can really stop them.

There are some, but limited, opportunities for escaping these pressures by doing fellowships. As some have stated above, repeating a residency is pretty darn heroic, but not impossible.

I do fortunately still love most aspects of the job and hopefully that will power me through. I just see, like many others in the field, the handwriting on the wall that this isnt going to end well for a lot of people

Thanks everyone
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KingRiggs
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by KingRiggs »

bltn wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:45 am
KingRiggs wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:32 am My anesthesia residency program would routinely give 6 months credit for someone who had completed a residency. You could knock out an anesthesia residency in 2.5 years, and be back to work (and currently in high demand).
Having two children currently finishing medical residencies, I feel qualified to comment.

Two and a half years of residency with its long hours and low pay should test ones resolve to change fields.
If they think residency is hard, wait 'till they're in practice!

2.5 years would be a small price which would easily be recouped in a year or so upon finishing, in comparison to a tech job like OP is describing.

It all depends on age and stage: age 55? No way. Age 35? No brainer.
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ram
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by ram »

I know a few people who were licensed physicians in their country of origin, apparently could not get in medical residency in US but:
- did a MBA and worked as a medical administrator.
-did software degree and worked in medical informatics
- worked as professors in non clinical subjects such as anatomy, physiology.

Their prior training as clinicians was considered relevant to their current job.
Ram
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by MarkRoulo »

Veaselhaufen wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:07 pm There are a lot of good thoughts above. In general, Im getting the feeling that one is not going to land a high paying nonclinical job for a physician by waiting for a job posting on indeed. Like many other things it likely depends on connections and word of mouth, if such a job exists at all.

The forecoming emergency medicine job shortage is described on other sites in great detail. The short of it is that there used to be a large shortage of ER doctors which caused pay to escalate to unsustainably high levels for doctors who were willing to work in understaffed areas. This was during the era when I joined the specialty. PE backed physician staffing groups combatted this by starting a flurry of new residencies (there are almost twice as many residency spots now as 12 years ago) as well as recruited a a herd of NP/PA’s which overcompensated for the previous doctor shortage. Our professional society predicts 20-30% excess ER doctors to jobs by 2030.

Yes PE backed staffing groups back start residencies all the time. If they meet ACGME requirements (which apparently is pretty easy in Emergency Medicine) then there isnt any professional organization that can really stop them.

There are some, but limited, opportunities for escaping these pressures by doing fellowships. As some have stated above, repeating a residency is pretty darn heroic, but not impossible.

I do fortunately still love most aspects of the job and hopefully that will power me through. I just see, like many others in the field, the handwriting on the wall that this isnt going to end well for a lot of people

Thanks everyone
I'm not totally clear on the pay for physicians in general (GPs, ER docs, ...) but had the vague sense that doctors tended to make more than random technical folks, even computer programmers. Sure, there are some programmers (superstar Google coders as an example) who make more, but then there are superstar doctors who make a lot, too.

You might look at going to work for a bio-tech company, but ... I think you might find that General Practitioners actually make pretty good money compared to most other jobs. It might be less than you make now, but you might want to compare this against other options.
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by jarjarM »

ram wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:36 pm I know a few people who were licensed physicians in their country of origin, apparently could not get in medical residency in US but:
- did a MBA and worked as a medical administrator.
-did software degree and worked in medical informatics
- worked as professors in non clinical subjects such as anatomy, physiology.

Their prior training as clinicians was considered relevant to their current job.
I know a few people who had done 1 (MBA -> administrator) and 2 (medical informatics). Also, another one is to work in biotech companies like genetech, roche, or Gilead as medical director of clinical trials. All were able to leverage their medical training in their current roles.
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by TheNightsToCome »

I left cardiology due to burnout 20 years ago and taught myself accounting, finance, and equity valuation, then worked as a healthcare equity analyst for several years. I eventually returned to practice.

If you are interested in that path, then start studying the CFA curriculum. You can find financial industry jobs and many other jobs for physicians at:

https://www.docjobs.com/

The Drop Out Club was started by physicians who changed careers.
Dontsell1
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by Dontsell1 »

Not quite what you asked but I’d strongly consider a critical care fellowship. Would be tough and busy, but you’d come out on the other side with a much more secure job. The shift work aspect may not be too different than EM, either. If you go that route, consider ways to make extra money in the months leading up to it. And if you have protected “research” time in fellowship, and have no plans for an academic career, you could still pick up ED shifts while putting in minimal effort to some QI study or chart review. The above is how I’d probably approach it.
bayareaBH
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by bayareaBH »

jarjarM wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:49 pm
ram wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:36 pm I know a few people who were licensed physicians in their country of origin, apparently could not get in medical residency in US but:
- did a MBA and worked as a medical administrator.
-did software degree and worked in medical informatics
- worked as professors in non clinical subjects such as anatomy, physiology.

Their prior training as clinicians was considered relevant to their current job.

I know a few people who had done 1 (MBA -> administrator) and 2 (medical informatics). Also, another one is to work in biotech companies like genetech, roche, or Gilead as medical director of clinical trials. All were able to leverage their medical training in their current roles.

+1 to this. Biotech and pharma companies are always looking for former physicians to fill roles. You can work 30-40 hours a week and get paid like $350K. Search for Medical Director roles.
jarjarM
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by jarjarM »

bayareaBH wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:12 pm
jarjarM wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:49 pm
I know a few people who had done 1 (MBA -> administrator) and 2 (medical informatics). Also, another one is to work in biotech companies like genetech, roche, or Gilead as medical director of clinical trials. All were able to leverage their medical training in their current roles.

+1 to this. Biotech and pharma companies are always looking for former physicians to fill roles. You can work 30-40 hours a week and get paid like $350K. Search for Medical Director roles.
Yup, and before pandemic, there's quite a bit of business travel for this role as well. Also pedigree of the candidate is important from what I heard.
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by hicabob »

I used to work for the research lab of a once dominant manufacturer of computers, medical devices and various electronic and diagnostic instruments. The medical devices dept. hired a few MD's and paid them well. MD's were needed for trials and they were expected to be useful in development too.
The docs were great people but one told me he preferred computers to patients which fits the job requirements. With the growth of hi-tech med devices I expect such positions are quite readily available to suitable tech-minded MD's.
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by LadyGeek »

I removed a contentious interchange regarding private equity firms. As a reminder, see: General Etiquette
We expect this forum to be a place where people can feel comfortable asking questions and where debates and discussions are conducted in civil tones.
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by cmr79 »

You could always leverage your procedural sedation skills into opening a ketamine clinic like this WCI guest post:
https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/ketam ... c-startup/

Several people have recommended critical care fellowships, but the mindset of EM and CCM, while overlapping in some areas, is very different in others. You probably already have a good idea whether critical care would be a fit for you from your residency rotations. There isn't any good reason that what is happening in EM couldn't happen in CCM, so I wouldn't go down that pathway just on the hope that the grass might be greener.
afan
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by afan »

It was obvious the OP was describing Emergency Medicine. The issue has received a great deal of attention.
There are a LOT of jobs for doctors, maybe not in EM, but in medicine across the board.
There are relatively few jobs for people with clinical medicine training to do other work. Perhaps you could get one, more likely not. From what the OP has said so far, there is no evidence of other skills that would make them appealing to a company looking for someone to, say run clinical trials. Has the OP ever run a clinical trial? Does the OP know anything about data science? Similar questions for the other jobs.

Retraining in another field has the advantage that years of developing clinical skill will still pay off.
Critical care might be an option if OP can get a training slot. They are competitive.
Primary care and hospitalist work, particularly in areas of high demand, might be something OP can do now.

Some comforting words. My field has been through cycles when it was claimed that there was a glut of people. I never had trouble finding a job and those gluts were interspersed between times of shortages. Right now, we are in a severe shortage, with simply not enough qualified people to take the open jobs. Yet I remember times when students were cautioned not to go into the specialty because "there will be no jobs". Some people have been saying that about my field lately, even as the shortage gets worse. It is difficult to predict the demand for specialists and take with a large grain of salt whatever someone tells you about the future.
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by Herekittykitty »

This doesn't address changing jobs, but the concerns about potential physician over supply in your specialty and resultant impacts.

I suggest if you haven't already, have a look at Emergency Physician Dr. James Dahle's website: https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/

I don't know him, but I read his book The White Coat Investor a few years ago (and gave it to medical students I supervised), and in March, 2021 took his online live seminar "Physician Wellness and Financial Literacy Conference 2021." I think the course is available to purchase through his website. He posts here sometimes, and some of the presenters either post here sometimes or are at least well regarded here.

His take is that doctors can become financially independent faster than they think, with saving and smart investing, and advocates becoming financially independent as soon as possible so that work becomes optional. The seminar I took addressed that, along with avoiding burnout. I recommend the book and either the same seminar I took, I think now available on line, or a similar course from the same site, or attending one of his seminars in person.

The more solid you get financially and the closer to financial independence, and the better you take care of your and your family's well being, the less the issues you raise will matter (not that they won't matter, but you will be prepared.) It looks like you have made good financial decisions (debt free, very good savings) so you likely already know that, but I still think you would enjoy the seminar I suggested or similar.

Given that you like your work plus you are building a financial foundation already, it is hard to think leaving medicine would be either satisfying or necessary, and could be the opposite. As to changing specialties - I'm not in yours and don't know.

Do take some vacation and don't think about work, and take your time gathering information and considering options (including the option of continuing in your specialty.)
Last edited by Herekittykitty on Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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diabelli
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by diabelli »

The pharma suggestion always comes up, but I think that medical director jobs typically require some amount of pharma experience prior (at least based on the listings I've seen). I believe that early career doctors particularly without a big academic research or pharma background may need to start as MSLs or as something like assistant directors. I don't have personal experience but this has been my impression.

Is there an internal medicine prelim year as a part of EM training? If so I wonder if OP could just take 2 years as an internal medicine resident and then be an internist or hospitalist.
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by tigerdoc93 »

In the past 10 years over 100 new Emergency Medicine residencies have been established with a mean of 13 residents per year per program. This is why there is concern for EM physician oversupply in the near future.

You have great training as an EM doctor and you can leverage that to help you find alternative career. I’ve been practicing EM for nearly 20 years and I’ve been able to transition to wound care 1/2 time. I also have reviewed medical malpractice cases as a side job.

You can consider working urgent care. You can join military until age 50 and work as physician. You can work as a prison doctor or work in cruise medicine. You can start a business or start accumulating rental properties. The point is that you have many options and it’s up to you to decide what you want. Once you do that, go for it! Good luck!
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by River in Sight »

bayareaBH wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:12 pm +1 to this. Biotech and pharma companies are always looking for former physicians to fill roles. You can work 30-40 hours a week and get paid like $350K. Search for Medical Director roles.
I work in Oncology Medical Affairs and while it is true big pharma is always looking for former physicians, I do not see these being 30-40 hour per week roles. If a Global role, the hours and travel for a medical director role can be grueling. Even for a US role, if you have Global counterparts the hours can still be bad. A lot of time is spent reviewing study protocols or doing medical/legal/regulatory review of promotional pieces which some may find boring or extremely boring. I think it's a good option, but in my experience not a cake walk.
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by Afty »

Long ago I was taking night courses in computer science and not one, but two of my classmates were Emergency Medicine docs trying to switch careers. I kept in touch with one of them, who is now Medical Director at a healthcare analytics firm. He loves his job and feels that his combination of medical and tech skills is very useful in his role.
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F150HD
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Re: Alternative careers for physician? Tech?

Post by F150HD »

Veaselhaufen wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:47 am Emergency Medicine
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=330174
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