Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

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ApeAttack
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by ApeAttack »

AnEngineer wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:52 pm As California is the state in question, the answer is different than in a lot of places. UCs and CSUs have good reputations, but the details matter. Depending on major and school, some CSUs may be preferable to some UCs.
+1

New Cal Poly Pomona and Cal Poly SLO engineers are often more desirable than new UC engineers because of the hands-on nature of the Cal Poly engineering programs vs the theoretical nature of many UC engineering programs.
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SC Anteater
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by SC Anteater »

Charon wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:23 pm
nisiprius wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:06 pm The elephant in the room is "social prestige."
Not really. Someone who can't get into UC Santa Barbara as an in-state student is not going to Harvard. Whatever random private college they can get into isn't going to be nationally known by the general public (for job interviews), or well respected by admissions committees (for graduate school).

I know people try to buy prestige, even at the low end. It's not worth the cost, though it can seem like it is for a student if they're not paying a dime of the cost (either parents or scholarship covering it all).

There are states without really high-end R1 publics, but California is not one of them.
Not totally related to the thread, but UCSB's admit rate this year was 29%. It does seem pretty available to juniors transferring in from CCs though.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by SC Anteater »

ApeAttack wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:58 pm
AnEngineer wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:52 pm As California is the state in question, the answer is different than in a lot of places. UCs and CSUs have good reputations, but the details matter. Depending on major and school, some CSUs may be preferable to some UCs.
+1

New Cal Poly Pomona and Cal Poly SLO engineers are often more desirable than new UC engineers because of the hands-on nature of the Cal Poly engineering programs vs the theoretical nature of many UC engineering programs.
Have a civ. Eng.kid graduating from SLO next year. He's loved it there, though covid certainly messed up the hands on learning. I do hope he's in demand next spring!
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by NabSh »

Also remember Private Universities have a lot more Financial Aid or scholarship options. I don't know about California. But in some cases students with good GPA are able to find scholarship to off set the cost difference.
neowiser
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by neowiser »

NabSh wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:42 pm Also remember Private Universities have a lot more Financial Aid or scholarship options. I don't know about California. But in some cases students with good GPA are able to find scholarship to off set the cost difference.
More than half of UC in-state students receive a free ride on tuition & fees.

https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... -stability
almostretired1965
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by almostretired1965 »

neowiser wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:58 pm
NabSh wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:42 pm Also remember Private Universities have a lot more Financial Aid or scholarship options. I don't know about California. But in some cases students with good GPA are able to find scholarship to off set the cost difference.
More than half of UC in-state students receive a free ride on tuition & fees.

https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... -stability
I don't think you read that right. The quote is that over half are on financial aid and would not be impacted by the tuition increase since the increase will translate dollar for dollar into additional grants. There is no way half of the students have free rides. Other than the military academies and a few odd ball places I don't know about, I doubt that this is feasible for any undergrad institution in America, private or public.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by Normchad »

None of the Supreme Court justices went public for undergrad, so beware of that. A few of them went to Stanford for undergrad I believe.

But obviously that’s a ludicrous way to make a decision.

I’m solidly in the “it just doesn’t matter” where you go to school; it matters what you do while you’re in school.

And maybe someday, a public school student will make it to the Supreme Court.

Find the school where your student is most likely to thrive.
calwatch
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by calwatch »

neowiser wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:58 pm More than half of UC in-state students receive a free ride on tuition & fees.

https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... -stability
This is mostly due to the Cal Grant and Middle Class Scholarship, which have fairly high income limits but a strict, fairly low asset limit ($85,500 and $191,000 respectively).

As yet another choice, there are public universities in other states available for discounted tuition through the Western Undergraduate Exchange, and some middle tier schools like Northern Arizona and the University of Nevada have targeted California students as recruits.

Here's a page from the University of Nevada trying to sell themselves to Californians: https://www.unr.edu/admissions/blog/5-r ... -in-nevada
Here's a page from Northern Arizona: https://nau.edu/admission/western-under ... alifornia/

Somewhat surprisingly, even AAU (top tier research universities) schools have gone into the act like the University of Utah: https://financialaid.utah.edu/types-of- ... change.php

With the high cost of California housing, the total cost of education may be cheaper than a UC, especially one non-local to the student.

I know several parents whose kids went to other Pac-12 and Power Five conference state schools elsewhere. They did not have the grades or scores to get into UCLA or Berkeley, but also did not want to go to a local Cal State and did not like the high academic focus/lack of traditional college sports of the middle tier UCs like Davis, Irvine, or Santa Cruz.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by ApeAttack »

SC Anteater wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:05 pm
ApeAttack wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:58 pm
AnEngineer wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:52 pm As California is the state in question, the answer is different than in a lot of places. UCs and CSUs have good reputations, but the details matter. Depending on major and school, some CSUs may be preferable to some UCs.
+1

New Cal Poly Pomona and Cal Poly SLO engineers are often more desirable than new UC engineers because of the hands-on nature of the Cal Poly engineering programs vs the theoretical nature of many UC engineering programs.
Have a civ. Eng.kid graduating from SLO next year. He's loved it there, though covid certainly messed up the hands on learning. I do hope he's in demand next spring!
I'm sure he won't have any trouble if the economy keeps humming along.
May all your index funds gain +0.5% today.
neowiser
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by neowiser »

almostretired1965 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:43 pm
neowiser wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:58 pm
NabSh wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:42 pm Also remember Private Universities have a lot more Financial Aid or scholarship options. I don't know about California. But in some cases students with good GPA are able to find scholarship to off set the cost difference.
More than half of UC in-state students receive a free ride on tuition & fees.

https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... -stability
I don't think you read that right. The quote is that over half are on financial aid and would not be impacted by the tuition increase since the increase will translate dollar for dollar into additional grants. There is no way half of the students have free rides. Other than the military academies and a few odd ball places I don't know about, I doubt that this is feasible for any undergrad institution in America, private or public.
https://admission.universityofcaliforni ... ncial-aid/

Straight from the horse’s mouth: 56% of UC students pay NO TUITION. Housing is another matter, but many also receive aid for room and board. The UC and California higher education system in general is the embodiment of the American Dream. Hard working first generation college students have a clear path to success without the burden of excessive debt.

Those of us who paid full price for our kids to attend UC joke about the invisible twin we supported but never met. It’s a great system.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by PowderDay9 »

almostretired1965 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:43 pm
neowiser wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:58 pm
NabSh wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:42 pm Also remember Private Universities have a lot more Financial Aid or scholarship options. I don't know about California. But in some cases students with good GPA are able to find scholarship to off set the cost difference.
More than half of UC in-state students receive a free ride on tuition & fees.

https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... -stability
I don't think you read that right. The quote is that over half are on financial aid and would not be impacted by the tuition increase since the increase will translate dollar for dollar into additional grants. There is no way half of the students have free rides. Other than the military academies and a few odd ball places I don't know about, I doubt that this is feasible for any undergrad institution in America, private or public.
You may be surprised to learn about the Bright Futures program in Florida. It awards full scholarships or 75% scholarships to Florida residents that meet certain academic requirements. For example, at the University of Florida, 93% of incoming in-state freshman have a Bright Futures scholarship. It's a pretty incredible program and a great incentive to keep talent in state.
fasteddie911
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by fasteddie911 »

I've spent time at both public and private, upper tier and lower tier, there's probably only a handful of private or public OOS schools I'd be willing to pay full price for. I didn't notice a difference in class size or individual attention either. Nevermind that these days more and more kids are doing grad school anyway. I don't really know anyone who went to an expensive school that I can say it was definitely worth it for them, considering where they ended up in life. I know many many more for whom it was not worth it. Plenty who went the expensive schools to become a teacher, cop, firefighter or often times come back for in-state grad school. All these folks end up working or studying alongside people who went to some State school. I guess you can compare the worth of the degree vs worth of investing the tuition difference.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by Ben Mathew »

RetiredCSProf wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:48 pm
Ben Mathew wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:39 pm
RetiredCSProf wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:40 pm I have taught CS classes at CA CC, UCLA, and a private LAC. It is not uncommon for the same lecturers to teach at multiple schools in the same area.
Can you compare your classes at the community college vs UCLA vs private LAC along some of the following dimensions?

I should preference my answers by pointing out that I was a part-time lecturer with limited office hours -- most of my teaching was in conjunction with being a grad student myself or with working full-time as a computer scientist, or both.

- Are there better discussions / more engagement among students in one setting?
I found that the students who were the most engaged were "older" students:
Some students at the LAC were already working in the industry and pursuing an MS in CS through evening classes
One of my most enthusiastic students was in community college and working as a secretary to an engineer
At UCLA, my most engaged students were from foreign countries (Israel, GB, Brazil) and planned to return

- Where are students less likely to become discouraged and drop out of CS?
It is difficult to make this comparison due to the cyclic nature of students choosing a major. At one point, half the undergrads entering UCLA wanted to major in CS. CC students have more flexibility in waiting to choose their major; many, like my son, take 3 years to finish their AA. One of my undergrad students at the LAC switched from BioEngineering to CS, while another switched from CS to Journalism -- both of these women made the switch at the start of their Junior year, not out of discouragement, but more in finding their passion
- Where do students have more research opportunities?
UCLA
- Do you know your students at CC, UCLA or the LAC the best?
I do not know if you ask this in respect to being able to write a reference or in getting to know them personally. I would say that I knew my students at UCLA the least -- although I did write a grad school reference for one student. Students at UCLA were very focused, and there was little drama. I was much more willing to get to know my students as I matured from starting to teach in my 20's and transitioning into my 60's. When I taught my last class at the LAC, I had several students who were going through emotional and / or financial turmoil and needed a good listener
- For an above-average student in your UCLA CS class, might they have been better served by the CC or the private LAC?
This would depend on the student's goals in terms of grad school or getting a job straight out of undergrad. My son's choice to go to a CC hinged on him finding a good XC/track team and coach that fit his athletic goals -- his academic goals were secondary at that point. One of my CS students at UCLA was an athlete and that likely factored into her decision to go to UCLA
- Which institution would be best for a student looking to enter a top 20 CS graduate program?
UCLA. Most of my CS students at UCLA planned to apply to grad school and were extremely grade-conscious (as in, "will this be on the test?")
- Which institution would be best for a student looking to enter industry?
CC followed by a CSU with a good CS department
Thank you for your response. This is a very useful perspective.
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mancich
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by mancich »

Our daughter is attending Binghamton University next month for Chemistry. At around $26,000/year all-in, and with an excellent reputation, I think she made the right choice. No one will convince me that attending a private school in the $50,000 - $75,000/year range would result in a better education.
AnEngineer
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by AnEngineer »

neowiser wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:28 am
almostretired1965 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:43 pm
neowiser wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:58 pm
NabSh wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:42 pm Also remember Private Universities have a lot more Financial Aid or scholarship options. I don't know about California. But in some cases students with good GPA are able to find scholarship to off set the cost difference.
More than half of UC in-state students receive a free ride on tuition & fees.

https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... -stability
I don't think you read that right. The quote is that over half are on financial aid and would not be impacted by the tuition increase since the increase will translate dollar for dollar into additional grants. There is no way half of the students have free rides. Other than the military academies and a few odd ball places I don't know about, I doubt that this is feasible for any undergrad institution in America, private or public.
https://admission.universityofcaliforni ... ncial-aid/

Straight from the horse’s mouth: 56% of UC students pay NO TUITION. Housing is another matter, but many also receive aid for room and board. The UC and California higher education system in general is the embodiment of the American Dream. Hard working first generation college students have a clear path to success without the burden of excessive debt.

Those of us who paid full price for our kids to attend UC joke about the invisible twin we supported but never met. It’s a great system.
Two things to know. First, CA has a strong income based financial aid program (mentioned upthread). If you are under the limits it's great. If you're above, the statistic is irrelevant to you.

Second, UC has a history of playing games with the word tuition, where most of the cost was termed fees, not tuition. I don't know if that's happening here, but even most universities have substantial non-tuition costs.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by OnTrack2020 »

Have not read through all the responses.

One of our sons attended a smaller, private university. The scholarships offered made it very financially comparable to attending the state university. I don't believe, for a second, that he would have had the opportunities that he had if he had attended a large state university. He basically would have just got lost in the crowd being another number.

Job-wise, there are many recruiters from well-known companies that set-up on campuses at state universities---at least we were told by one state university that we visited that they had a high placement rate--around 95% (computer science). I can believe it---the state university was doing some awesome things. The private university our son attended didn't have that, although he did attend many coding competitions throughout the region, etc., In his senior year, someone had mentioned to him about applying for a job with "xyz" corp., and he ended up getting the position. It worked out for him very well.

Would we have paid full price for the private university?---no. Would we have paid full price if he was accepted to a place like MIT?---somehow, we would have found a way.

In the end, I think you have to look at your child's personality and what would be a good fit overall.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by bltn »

Having two children that attended elite private universities, I occasionally wondered if those schools were worth the exorbitant costs. When reflecting on my kids attendance in medical schools, I think there may have been some marginal benefit related to their acceptance in these professional schools. Were we in a state with better state universities ( California, Virginia, Michigan, North Carolina), the advantage of the elite private schools might have been even more questionable.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by daleddm »

Prof at large, comprehensive (flagship) midwest state school here. And I did a year as a visiting prof recently at a pricey private in the NE. The other students (peers) will be the consequential difference. In my experience, kids in the private were far more likely to be expecting to be handled with kid gloves in terms of course work, explanations for things they didn't care to put much personal effort towards ... in general projecting an attitude that they were deserving and smart when in fact they just came to the situation having met the financial criteria. Of course there are "demanding" kids at the publics, but the anecdotal in my experiences (25 years and counting) are that the publics are where I'd always advise a young person to attend.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by Bullhead5829 »

In my 31 years in the workforce as an IBM mainframe systems programmer, nobody ever asked me:
a) What university I attended for my undergraduate and graduate degrees;
b) In what fields were my undergraduate and graduate degrees.
The knowledge, skills, and abilities you brought to the position were the important factors.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by Watty »

Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
:oops:

Back to the original question.

Something I forgot to mention was that Dale and Kruger did a study that looked at how students did who were accepted at very selective colleges but did not attend the selective college

Basically it was looking at the question of if a large part of the success of selective college students is if those colleges are pretty good at selecting students who will be successful no matter where they go to college.

https://www.nber.org/papers/w17159

There have been several follow up studies too.

There are lots of details but basically if you got accepted to a very selective college but went to some other college instead your earnings were likely virtually the same as if you had gone to the more selective college. The exception was that some minorities tended to benefit more from going to the more selective college.

It may have been in a follow up study but as I recall the it was more complex for women who may have had different rates of marriage and leaving the workforce to be a stay at home parent depending on if they went to a selective or less-selective college.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by celia »

Normchad wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:50 pm None of the Supreme Court justices went public for undergrad, so beware of that. A few of them went to Stanford for undergrad I believe.
A past Supreme Court Justice, Tom C. Clark attended the University of Texas at Austin for both undergrad and law school.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by anon_investor »

Bullhead5829 wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:23 am In my 31 years in the workforce as an IBM mainframe systems programmer, nobody ever asked me:
a) What university I attended for my undergraduate and graduate degrees;
b) In what fields were my undergraduate and graduate degrees.
The knowledge, skills, and abilities you brought to the position were the important factors.
That may be true for your profession. But for some others, the school makes a difference for the first job, and the first job impacts the rest of your career.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by whyme »

Over the years, I've taught at a wide range of schools in California (Community college, multiple UCs, one CalState, private colleges and a big private university). I've taught everything from intro classes to graduate seminars.

A few thoughts:

1. I urge you to put the individual student at the center of this decision. To the extent possible, the student should travel to prospective campuses and talk with enrolled students. (It's also good to sit in on a class or find a way to see work students are doing as part of the tour.) Your student will likely make more of the college experience if they are excited about the school and believe it to be a good fit for them.

2. Peers are an important part of college, often the most important part. They can shape a student's future life in many ways, as colleagues, collaborators, spouses and role models. Consider the backgrounds of the student body: socioeconomic, educational, geographic and in terms of demonstrated interests and accomplishments. You learn a lot from getting to know these people, and sometimes they open doors for you.

3. Different schools offer different environments and experiences; you and your student should think about what will best suit their goals. At a small liberal arts college (any of the Claremont Colleges, for example), the large majority of students live together in dorms, and some faculty may also live on campus or join students for meals. Classes are small and it is very difficult for any student to avoid being actively engaged by peers and faculty. Specialty institutions--such as engineering or art schools--offer an intensely focused pre-professional curriculum and peer group. At a Cal State, most students commute to classes and many are enrolled part time.

4. I suggest you try to match the student to the school before making decisions about whether the cost is "worth it." If you identify a good match and find the student can't gain admission or that the school would be financially prohibitive, you can then make adjustments, with knowledge that will still allow for an excellent college experience. (By the way, high-end private universities and liberal arts colleges--ones with large endowments, like Stanford or Pomona College--often have financial aid packages for low-and-middle income families that can make the net cost lower than the state schools.)
Last edited by whyme on Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Minoadoc
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by Minoadoc »

if you are a good student and take your studies seriously, it can work no matter where you go to school. However, one daughter, a med school graduate/current psych resident graduated from Vanderbilt undergrad. The other daughter, a Ph.D candidate went to Amherst undergrad. Both were told in the grad school application process that the quality of their alma mater would be given extra credit towards acceptance.I also went to Vanderbilt undergrad, and was told the same thing several times in the interview process. In the academic world, at some level, where you go to school, either at an undergrad or a grad level matters to some degree. In the rest of the world, maybe not as much. Anecdotally, I believe that going to a high level private school can help you establish future contacts and connections with people that might not be possible at some other schools. Certainly, this is not written in stone.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by harrychan »

devopscoder wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:17 pm
Those who actually did the community college route for 2 years and then transfer, what was college like from a social perspective? I can see if one is an introvert that they might not care about this.
I found my classmates were oftentimes re-entry students, I would say about half. I had people whose jobs or promotions depended upon them getting a degree and folks who couldn't finish college as they started a family early. These people were motivated to get good grades. As such, it created a very competitive environment. Also, all CC are commuter schools are very little to no social interactions after school. Everyone went their own way. I was a bit of an introvert so it didn't matter too much to me. I would say I missed the dorm experience. By the time I transferred to a state school, I no longer qualified a place in the dorm and just commuted the rest of the way till graduation.
This is not legal or certified financial advice but you know that already.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by harrychan »

mceagle555 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:36 pm As someone who has worked in Higher Education & tech for 20+ years:

- Private university (Top-20) worth it for tech jobs?: No. Focus on good state schools + certifications. Tech is already heavily being swayed towards certifications.
I would add connections to internship is ESSENTIAL for tech undergrad graduates. To me, this is the most important. Most successful undergrad graduates have work experience from internships from junior to senior year.
This is not legal or certified financial advice but you know that already.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by JayDee37 »

whyme wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:22 am Over the years, I've taught at a wide range of schools in California (Community college, multiple UCs, one CalState, private colleges and a big private university). I've taught everything from intro classes to graduate seminars.

A few thoughts:

1. I urge you to put the individual student at the center of this decision. To the extent possible, the student should travel to prospective campuses and talk with enrolled students. (It's also good to sit in on a class or find a way to see work students are doing as part of the tour.) Your student will likely make more of the college experience if they are excited about the school they and believe it to be a good fit for them.

2. Peers are an important part of college, often the most important part. They can shape a student's future life in many ways, as colleagues, collaborators, spouses and role models. Consider the backgrounds of the student body: socioeconomic, educational, geographic and in terms of demonstrated interests and accomplishments. You learn a lot from getting to know these people, and sometimes they open doors for you.

3. Different schools offer different environments and experiences; you and your student should think about what will best suit their goals. At a small liberal arts college (any of the Claremont Colleges, for example), the large majority of students live together in dorms, and some faculty may also live on campus or join students for meals. Classes are small and it is very difficult for any student to avoid being actively engaged by peers and faculty. Specialty institutions--such as engineering or art schools--offer an intensely focused pre-professional curriculum and peer group. At a Cal State, most students commute to classes and many are enrolled part time.

4. I suggest you try to match the student to the school before making decisions about whether the cost is "worth it." If you identify a good match and find the student can't gain admission or that the school would be financially prohibitive, you can then make adjustments, with knowledge that will still allow for an excellent college experience. (By the way, high-end private universities and liberal arts colleges--ones with large endowments, like Stanford or Pomona College--often have financial aid packages for low-and-middle income families that can make the net cost lower than the state schools.)
This. All of it. Visiting prospective campuses and talking with current students is vital. Kids can have fantastic experiences and great opportunities at ANY type of college; the critical piece is about the fit between the specific student and the environment and opportunities at the specific school.
Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life? | ~Mary Oliver
KrisNC
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by KrisNC »

This is not a purely ROI decision.
It really depends on your kid - their aptitude, interest, career goals etc.
More importantly, can you afford the 300k for private college without loans ? (students are eligible for only 27k Federal loans)

In your prior post, you indicated you saved quite a lot in 529, and also considering early retirement.
Depending on which year of HS is your oldest child, and if they can get admitted to a Top 10 university, you may qualify for some Fin Aid, if you decide to retire early.
Private colleges/Ivies, look at different characteristics than a straight up GPA cut-off like UCs. It is possible for a student to get rejected at Berkeley but admitted to Penn or Cornell.

One data point, from my Bay area friends, their kids who did not get into Berkeley/UCLA, prefer to go to OOS Publics - Purdue, UT Austin, UIUC etc.
There is also San Jose St (commutable, and great CS program) and Santa Clara (private but gives good merit aid).

It is not just private vs. public, but is it T20 private vs. UC Davis or Pepperdine vs. UC Davis ?
TheHiker
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by TheHiker »

I agree that it is not purely an ROI question. But from the ROI standpoint alone, paying full price at a private college is not worth it in my view.
Our child went to UCSC (one of the least selective UCs) on a Regents scholarship.
Graduated in 2.5 years with a total cost of 50K (including on-campus housing) and a FAANG job.
Regents scholarship gives you a stipend, but also priority enrollment in classes which makes it relatively easy to graduate early.
harrychan
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by harrychan »

MarkRoulo wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:07 pm
Community College does seem to be a back-door way to get a UC education without the GPA and SAT scores needed to be accepted straight out of high school. This is assuming the child *can* actually do the work, of course, but mine was nowhere NEAR being accepted out of high school and is now able to go ...
In my experience, GE courses at CC was MUCH more difficult than after I transferred. So don't think CC it is a cakewalk. If your child didn't do well in HS and didn't get in their college of choice, they will need to kick it up a few notches to get high enough grades and extra curricular (e.g. volunteer, student government, clubs, athletics, employment) to be accepted to transfer to their college / uni of choice.
This is not legal or certified financial advice but you know that already.
MarkRoulo
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by MarkRoulo »

harrychan wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:25 pm
MarkRoulo wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:07 pm
Community College does seem to be a back-door way to get a UC education without the GPA and SAT scores needed to be accepted straight out of high school. This is assuming the child *can* actually do the work, of course, but mine was nowhere NEAR being accepted out of high school and is now able to go ...
In my experience, GE courses at CC was MUCH more difficult than after I transferred. So don't think CC it is a cakewalk. If your child didn't do well in HS and didn't get in their college of choice, they will need to kick it up a few notches to get high enough grades and extra curricular (e.g. volunteer, student government, clubs, athletics, employment) to be accepted to transfer to their college / uni of choice.
I am pleased to hear that. With luck, my child will have the same experience.

For what it is worth, I don't think my child "kicked it up a notch." His SAT was in the low 1200s and I expect that if he took the SAT again it would still be in the low 1200s. A low 1200 SAT does not get one into a mid-tier University of California university. But 60 semester units of UC transferable credits with a CC GPA of 3.8 (and having 7 classes of those 60 units be from a specific list) does. Guaranteed via TAG.

I think he would have done roughly this well at a mid-tier UC right out of high school, he just wouldn't be admitted. Now he has been admitted. Which is why this looks like a "back door" to me.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by MarkRoulo »

Bullhead5829 wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:23 am In my 31 years in the workforce as an IBM mainframe systems programmer, nobody ever asked me:
a) What university I attended for my undergraduate and graduate degrees;
b) In what fields were my undergraduate and graduate degrees.
The knowledge, skills, and abilities you brought to the position were the important factors.
I'm guessing that for many/most first jobs what university the candidate attended matters. What field the candidate majored in matters.

Because for the first job this is often ALL the hiring manager has to go on when sorting through resumes.

If I have a pile of 50 resumes (for a programming job) and some candidates are from MIT/Stanford/CMU and others are from less prestigious colleges, the candidates from MIT/Stanford/CMU are more likely to get the initial phone screen. If they do well, they will get called in for a full day interview.

It isn't that I don't think that the candidates from the other schools can't do the job. But I think it more likely that a random MIT grad can do the job than a random directional-state grad can. Not guaranteed, but an odds play.

And I won't be phone screening all 50 candidates, so I have to have SOME 1st round filter to order them. School and major are part of that first round filter.

As candidates get further away from school the school and degree matters less an the experience matters more. But right out of school there isn't much more to go on.
stan1
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by stan1 »

Normchad wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:50 pm None of the Supreme Court justices went public for undergrad, so beware of that. A few of them went to Stanford for undergrad I believe.
It's worth considering that I suppose. I realize this is Bogleheads and most Boglehead children will presumably be 99.9th percentile like their parents, but some of us do realize when the kid is 17 (and having known the kid since birth) that they have good odds of being successful in life but are very unlikely to be a Supreme Court justice.
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cowdogman
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by cowdogman »

The best school is one where your child will be happy and where he/she can excel. That depends on their personality (would a big school be overwhelming or a small school too claustrophobic?) and what they want to study and probably a lot of other things. Doing campus tours is the best way to figure out a good fit.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by chipperd »

Charon wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:56 am No, private is not worth it. (It is true that many private university have high "discount rates", which means actual tuition paid is much less than the sticker price - but still a lot more than a public.)

You're looking at the UCs collectively, as far as I can tell? Berkeley is not Santa Cruz is not Riverside is not Merced. If Berkeley or UCLA aren't options, Merced might be. But as others have pointed out, the CSU system is your obvious choice if you can't get into a UC. Also, you might consider CSUs from the start - you can have smaller classes and better student-faculty contact at those than at large research universities. Berkeley is more prestigious than Sonoma State, but you're all but guaranteed a better undergrad experience at the latter.

Community college first can be an okay option in some majors, but it's also wasted time for some. The classes will quite frankly not be on the same level as a four year, and you have to be careful about transferring credits in a system that mixes quarters and semesters. In some majors (particularly STEM), CCs only offer one year worth of classes, so students spending two years at them load up on gen ed and have difficult and weird schedules once they transfer to a four year. CCs are a great option for those who aren't quite ready for college, and for those looking for a real financial bargain - as long as you pay attention to transfer issues from the start.
Maybe in some cases, but in our case, this fall all three of our kids will be enrolled in higher ranked, private Universities at a lower net cost than state flagship U, inclusive of the merit $ offered by State U.
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chazas
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by chazas »

I went to a top Ivy and it still benefits me. Completely worth it. Depends on which schools we’re comparing, on both the private and public side.
fwellimort
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by fwellimort »

Since the above commented (and was pretty direct).

I'll also add.

My peers and I have enjoyed benefits of attending an Ivy League school.
Recruiters are more likely to give my peers and I a chance. Some of my peers are working on really cool stuffs cause of it.
It's one thing to have the skills to work on a job. It's another thing to even be given an opportunity to interview at those jobs.

Sure the pay might not differ but not everyone has a chance to interview with companies like Google X out of college (or a few years out of college).
Same with companies like DE Shaw, Jane Street, Hudson River Trading, Two Sigma, etc.. If you want to have a realistic shot of even hoping to get an interview one day at companies like Jane Street, then you better have been a graduate from a top 8 USNews school.
But in the tech space, the biggest advantage is being given the chance to interview with 'tech unicorns' like Stripe.
These companies do NOT give interviews easily.
Maybe your kid wants to work at Khan Academy. Khan Academy does amazing things but there's just not that many jobs out there. And unfortunately, college name can play a big role to landing an internship at such company. Does Khan Academy pay less than its competitors for similar talent? Yes. However, what if your kid really wants to work at such company?

That said, whether the candidate (e.g.: I) can 'grab' the opportunity is a different story (cause these interviews are EXTREMELY selective). However, there DEFINITELY are more doors open with a degree from a top private.
There is a higher threshold for 'higher end jobs' graduating from a top school over graduating from most schools.

Note: Privates like the Ivy League are NOT the average private schools.
Some of my peers have moved onto to do interesting work (some forsaking higher potential pay [e.g.: working at Google]) and the college name did play a noticeable part (along with Google on resume) to grabbing those interviews.
(UCB is not your everyday public though so if you add UCB onto the equation, then shrugs.)
Tirebiter
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by Tirebiter »

The comments on all of the Ivies are interesting and I tend to agree with them. But they are clearly not the schools the OP is considering if their concern is that their children might not get into the top UCs.

They are more likely looking at CA private schools like Occidental, Santa Clara, University of San Diego, Loyola Marymount, Pepperdine, Chapman. I'm guessing these schools probably provide an academic experience slightly better than your average Cal State school (due to smaller class size), and a social environment that is better than your average Cal State school (due to a higher percentage of students living on campus). That would be worth it to me as a parent if the increased cost was easily affordable; otherwise, it would not be.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by Tirebiter »

Normchad wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:50 pm None of the Supreme Court justices went public for undergrad, so beware of that. A few of them went to Stanford for undergrad I believe.
That's a bit of a biased sample pool though since the type of person who becomes a Supreme Court Justice is obsessed with prestige, probably always has been, and would always choose the more prestigious school. If ROI were an important factor to them they'd have chosen a different profession.
marc in merrimack
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by marc in merrimack »

JoeRetire wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:19 pm
MrCheapo wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:03 am So I can't seem to believe that a private school education is every worth it, but maybe I'm missing something.
"Worth it" is in the eye of the beholder.
So true. EOD
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by FandangoDave5010 »

I have degrees from a CSU, San Francisco State, and two private universities (University of Chicago and Fordham University). I would pay for my granddaughter in a heartbeat to go to a school like UChicago if she is accepted. I have funded a Vanguard 529 Account that would make it possible because it would be worth it to me, using my RMDs from Vanguard.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by jpa »

I went to a low-tier, small liberal arts private college, but well respected within the state because of a full-ride tuition merit scholarship. I would not have qualified for this at my local low-tier state university, let alone the state flag-ship universities. I graduated with basically no debt. i was accepted to medical school, and they didn't care where I went to undergraduate studies.

I think it's worth it to investigate many opportunities. Smaller private colleges are much more likely to have merit based aid that is not based on need.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by Jags4186 »

Tirebiter wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:59 pm
Normchad wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:50 pm None of the Supreme Court justices went public for undergrad, so beware of that. A few of them went to Stanford for undergrad I believe.
That's a bit of a biased sample pool though since the type of person who becomes a Supreme Court Justice is obsessed with prestige, probably always has been, and would always choose the more prestigious school. If ROI were an important factor to them they'd have chosen a different profession.
And 1 went to an outside top 50 private liberal arts college. So there’s that.
Tdubs
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by Tdubs »

MrCheapo wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:03 am I'd be curious to the general answer for all states but in particular California.

In CA our kids have several options when graduating:

1) Go directly into a U.C. (getting very hard now, the incoming mean GPA of some majors is now 4+)
2) Go into a community college and then transfer to a U.C. (but you could luck out and get stuck with a CC degree).
3) Go the private route either in-state or out of state.

The problem is that the cost of an ENTIRE UC 4 year degree in tuition is about $64K which is not much more than a SINGLE year of private school tuition!

So I can't seem to believe that a private school education is every worth it, but maybe I'm missing something.
I'm surprised more students don't pursue the CC transfer route in any state system including UC.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by oldfort »

Watty wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:10 am
Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
:oops:

Back to the original question.

Something I forgot to mention was that Dale and Kruger did a study that looked at how students did who were accepted at very selective colleges but did not attend the selective college

Basically it was looking at the question of if a large part of the success of selective college students is if those colleges are pretty good at selecting students who will be successful no matter where they go to college.

https://www.nber.org/papers/w17159

There have been several follow up studies too.

There are lots of details but basically if you got accepted to a very selective college but went to some other college instead your earnings were likely virtually the same as if you had gone to the more selective college. The exception was that some minorities tended to benefit more from going to the more selective college.

It may have been in a follow up study but as I recall the it was more complex for women who may have had different rates of marriage and leaving the workforce to be a stay at home parent depending on if they went to a selective or less-selective college.
This isn't quite right. What the 2011 study found was students who applied to very selective colleges did as well as those who attended. Whether they were accepted or rejected was irrelevant.

From the abstract in the 2011 study, However, when we adjust for unobserved student ability by controlling for the average SAT score of the colleges that students applied to, our estimates of the return to college selectivity fall substantially and are generally indistinguishable from zero.

From the conclusions section: One possible explanation for this pattern is that while most students who apply to selective colleges may be able to rely on their families and friends to provide job-networking opportunities, networking opportunities that become available from attending a selective college may be particularly valuable for black and Hispanic students, and for students from less educated families.
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MrCheapo
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by MrCheapo »

It's not ideal and comes with two caveats. Recall you typically stay in the CC for 2 years.

a) The CC college doesn't prepare you for the rigors of the upper division UC courses.
b) You apply to transfer but don't make it and are stuck.

b) Will be more and more likely as UC has done away with SATs and basing admission on personal story and personal essays more and more.
Tdubs wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:49 pm
MrCheapo wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:03 am I'd be curious to the general answer for all states but in particular California.

In CA our kids have several options when graduating:

1) Go directly into a U.C. (getting very hard now, the incoming mean GPA of some majors is now 4+)
2) Go into a community college and then transfer to a U.C. (but you could luck out and get stuck with a CC degree).
3) Go the private route either in-state or out of state.

The problem is that the cost of an ENTIRE UC 4 year degree in tuition is about $64K which is not much more than a SINGLE year of private school tuition!

So I can't seem to believe that a private school education is every worth it, but maybe I'm missing something.
I'm surprised more students don't pursue the CC transfer route in any state system including UC.
cableguy
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by cableguy »

Private schools can be cleaner, better organized, smaller classrooms, more responsive, and also.....after discounts, credits, scholarships, etc., not much more money than public. The pandemic magnified all of the above. Many of the publics just shut down and went online. They didn't even try. And probably had to bow to some higher government authority, etc. and just caved. I visited some schools during the pandemic and the publics that went all online looked like ghost towns with uncut lawns, stopped construction jobs, etc. The privates looked like they kept operations up and running. I have one child in a private and one in a public. Both great schools.
wander
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by wander »

Cal Poly San Luis Obispo is better than Cal Poly Pomona, which is better than Cal State Universities.
Tdubs
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by Tdubs »

MrCheapo wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:57 pm It's not ideal and comes with two caveats. Recall you typically stay in the CC for 2 years.

a) The CC college doesn't prepare you for the rigors of the upper division UC courses.
b) You apply to transfer but don't make it and are stuck.

b) Will be more and more likely as UC has done away with SATs and basing admission on personal story and personal essays more and more.
Tdubs wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:49 pm
MrCheapo wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:03 am I'd be curious to the general answer for all states but in particular California.

In CA our kids have several options when graduating:

1) Go directly into a U.C. (getting very hard now, the incoming mean GPA of some majors is now 4+)
2) Go into a community college and then transfer to a U.C. (but you could luck out and get stuck with a CC degree).
3) Go the private route either in-state or out of state.

The problem is that the cost of an ENTIRE UC 4 year degree in tuition is about $64K which is not much more than a SINGLE year of private school tuition!

So I can't seem to believe that a private school education is every worth it, but maybe I'm missing something.
I'm surprised more students don't pursue the CC transfer route in any state system including UC.
I never saw a significant problem with CC transfers among my students. I think the idea that a CC degree leaves you under prepared is a bit of a myth. CC students are as likely to complete a BA/BS degree as HS students who start at a four year. The UC systems has pretty carefully detailed requirements for a CC transfer applicant. There shouldn't be surprises.

https://www.aacu.org/aacu-news/newslett ... ts-figures
Darwin
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by Darwin »

Charon wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:23 pm
nisiprius wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:06 pm The elephant in the room is "social prestige."
Not really. Someone who can't get into UC Santa Barbara as an in-state student is not going to Harvard. Whatever random private college they can get into isn't going to be nationally known by the general public (for job interviews), or well respected by admissions committees (for graduate school).

I know people try to buy prestige, even at the low end. It's not worth the cost, though it can seem like it is for a student if they're not paying a dime of the cost (either parents or scholarship covering it all).

There are states without really high-end R1 publics, but California is not one of them.
I disagree, because it depends on the major. A degree in Ecology or Forestry at Harvard doesn't necessarily translate into a better biologist than one from Humboldt State University in California. In-state tuition at the latter is currently listed as $7850, and it has a reputation of producing highly qualified biologists. In my profession, a Harvard degree would have given me zero advantage in hiring or pay. The HSU degree is considered prestigious in my field. So, it depends.
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