Colleges have net price calculators. While not exact, most people should know whether a CSU or Pomona is cheaper for their family long before the acceptance letters roll in."Worth it" implies that a private university will cost more than a state university. This may or may not be true. You cannot know until you are accepted and receive a financial aid package. It's pointless to argue this in the abstract.
Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
I found them accurate to within about 10%. No big surprises in either direction.oldfort wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:20 pmColleges have net price calculators. While not exact, most people should know whether a CSU or Pomona is cheaper for their family long before the acceptance letters roll in."Worth it" implies that a private university will cost more than a state university. This may or may not be true. You cannot know until you are accepted and receive a financial aid package. It's pointless to argue this in the abstract.
However, some privates (especially lower-ranked, but even some top 20s, though none of the top 10) give out some merit scholarships. NPCs do not typically factor those, unless it's a fairly low-ranked school that has automatic ones based on stats.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
IMO, the answer is it depends on the career and types of positions your child wants to pursue upon graduation.
The more selective the career/the position, the more important the reputation of the school is.
As an example; If he was interested in finance and wants a job as an investment banker or trader at Goldman Sacks where they get 1000 applications for every position, his probabilities of getting hired is increased tremendously if he went to a top ten school. When i hire for a position in my investment firm for an entry level position and I am staring at 300 resumes I need some way of weeding out the resumes to get the 10 people i am bringing in for the 30-minute initial interviews. I am working 50-60 hours a week and there is no way I have the time to go through all these applicants. I use the schools as a pre-filter to increase the odds i am getting a candidate that has a history of achievement. You hear stories of people from no-name schools getting TOP wall street positions but they are rare and it's usually because they had some type of connections ie. their dad or uncle etc. works there and got them in. The back office/operations guys on wall street mostly come from state schools; they make good $$ but nowhere near the 7 figures the top dealmakers make. The front office deal makers making the major $$$ mostly come from the top 10 schools.
The same rationale goes for if he wants a top position at Google or Amazon or FB, etc.
If the student is interested in a career that is not as selective and there is a high demand, ie. accounting, then a good average school should be able to get him a decent position.
There is such a high demand for software engineers now that he can probably go to any decent school and major in CS and get a good job;; or even go to these programming boot camps and skip college altogether if he has a good aptitude for programming.
Another caveat is just because a school is private does not mean it's better than public schools. There are many private schools that are just average in reputation and recruitment prospects; i have no idea why the parents of their children choose to pay that much for them when they could have gotten a better education at their state school.
And lastly, the adage "you are the average of the 6 people you hang out with" rings true. At the top schools, your probability of meeting and being influenced by ambitious, smart, high achievers is increased and it can rub off on you. Am i saying you cannot meet similar caliber people in state schools? of course not (especially if you can get into the honors program at the state school) but again we are talking about increasing the probabilities of success.
The more selective the career/the position, the more important the reputation of the school is.
As an example; If he was interested in finance and wants a job as an investment banker or trader at Goldman Sacks where they get 1000 applications for every position, his probabilities of getting hired is increased tremendously if he went to a top ten school. When i hire for a position in my investment firm for an entry level position and I am staring at 300 resumes I need some way of weeding out the resumes to get the 10 people i am bringing in for the 30-minute initial interviews. I am working 50-60 hours a week and there is no way I have the time to go through all these applicants. I use the schools as a pre-filter to increase the odds i am getting a candidate that has a history of achievement. You hear stories of people from no-name schools getting TOP wall street positions but they are rare and it's usually because they had some type of connections ie. their dad or uncle etc. works there and got them in. The back office/operations guys on wall street mostly come from state schools; they make good $$ but nowhere near the 7 figures the top dealmakers make. The front office deal makers making the major $$$ mostly come from the top 10 schools.
The same rationale goes for if he wants a top position at Google or Amazon or FB, etc.
If the student is interested in a career that is not as selective and there is a high demand, ie. accounting, then a good average school should be able to get him a decent position.
There is such a high demand for software engineers now that he can probably go to any decent school and major in CS and get a good job;; or even go to these programming boot camps and skip college altogether if he has a good aptitude for programming.
Another caveat is just because a school is private does not mean it's better than public schools. There are many private schools that are just average in reputation and recruitment prospects; i have no idea why the parents of their children choose to pay that much for them when they could have gotten a better education at their state school.
And lastly, the adage "you are the average of the 6 people you hang out with" rings true. At the top schools, your probability of meeting and being influenced by ambitious, smart, high achievers is increased and it can rub off on you. Am i saying you cannot meet similar caliber people in state schools? of course not (especially if you can get into the honors program at the state school) but again we are talking about increasing the probabilities of success.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Yes...networking in certain careers is worth it...also since they sign my paycheck at differing times in my career...double yes...but in all honesty I think it makes a huge difference in some areas of study and not nearly as much in others....The Ivys are tough to beat...so is ND, Northwestern and a few others I dont really know about...and the cost might be much less than a public school all in..
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Yup, I agree with your point about many issues not being crystal clear, which is what makes for an interesting discussion. When that does happen, requests are typically posted for more information, which is typically provided, enriching the discussion. That hasn't happened here.psteinx wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:58 am1) It's *quite* actionable. College is VERY expensive. Deciding if (more expensive) college A is worth it compared to (less expensive) college B is super-actionable. No, the answers won't be crystal clear, but neither are they crystal clear for a huge portion of what's discussed on this forum, both more direct investing stuff (international - yeah or nay? should I value-tilt, etc.), and for the more personal finance stuff (houses, cars, and yes, college/education).
2) Feel free to not look at the thread if it doesn't interest you.
Given the vague nature of the original question, many have asked for more detailed information from the OP to make answers more actionable. Those answers have yet to be provided and thus around we go.
"A portfolio is like a bar of soap, the more it's handled, the less there is." Dr. William Bernstein
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
We did get some elaboration (though maybe not what you asked for). One of the followup posts contained this:chipperd wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:09 amYup, I agree with your point about many issues not being crystal clear, which is what makes for an interesting discussion. When that does happen, requests are typically posted for more information, which is typically provided, enriching the discussion. That hasn't happened here.psteinx wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:58 am1) It's *quite* actionable. College is VERY expensive. Deciding if (more expensive) college A is worth it compared to (less expensive) college B is super-actionable. No, the answers won't be crystal clear, but neither are they crystal clear for a huge portion of what's discussed on this forum, both more direct investing stuff (international - yeah or nay? should I value-tilt, etc.), and for the more personal finance stuff (houses, cars, and yes, college/education).
2) Feel free to not look at the thread if it doesn't interest you.
Given the vague nature of the original question, many have asked for more detailed information from the OP to make answers more actionable. Those answers have yet to be provided and thus around we go.
Which is relevant because (a) biology isn't one of the undergrad majors that generally benefits from a high-prestige private. Do well at UC Berkeley, etc and have high GRE scores and one should be able to get in to a highly ranked grad school. Or, stop at a bachelors and, again, UC Berkeley, etc. is probably fine. And (b) it opens up the CC route in California because the TAG (Transfer Acceptance Guarantee) program applies to biology majors for many of the mid-tier campuses.Is there a way to test/quantify this claim? I ask because kid #1 wants to do biology and I thought biology was impacted?
We also discovered that some California CCs offer the first two years of undergrad physics and math so those majors are also candidates for CC transfer.
And two years of CC plus two years of private might be about the same price as four years of University of California, so that might be something the poster could consider as an option.
Compared to other public vs private threads I think this one has been fairly productive
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Mark Marquess, Stanford's baseball head coach from 1977-2017 (not a typo!), used to use this question as part of his sales pitch to the *PARENTS* of students he was trying to recruit:keke212 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:56 pm ...
And lastly, the adage "you are the average of the 6 people you hang out with" rings true. At the top schools, your probability of meeting and being influenced by ambitious, smart, high achievers is increased and it can rub off on you. Am i saying you cannot meet similar caliber people in state schools? of course not (especially if you can get into the honors program at the state school) but again we are talking about increasing the probabilities of success.
Peer group is a thing. Not a totally controlling thing and not the only thing, but a thing.Do you want your son to meet his future wife at Stanford or while riding a bus playing minor league baseball?
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
At least one (well known private) school isn't/wasn't smart enough to cap their net-price calculator. If you enter large enough numbers, the calculator comes back with an "expected family contribution" MUCH higher than the advertised list price. I'm sure the school would charge ONLY the very high list price, but I thought it bad salesmanshipoldfort wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:20 pmColleges have net price calculators. While not exact, most people should know whether a CSU or Pomona is cheaper for their family long before the acceptance letters roll in."Worth it" implies that a private university will cost more than a state university. This may or may not be true. You cannot know until you are accepted and receive a financial aid package. It's pointless to argue this in the abstract.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
No, they are not worth it.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Yep, I'm skeptical anyone reading this thread would get any real help if their kid did get into a HYMPS school...income/assets likely too high.MarkRoulo wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:27 amAt least one (well known private) school isn't/wasn't smart enough to cap their net-price calculator. If you enter large enough numbers, the calculator comes back with an "expected family contribution" MUCH higher than the advertised list price. I'm sure the school would charge ONLY the very high list price, but I thought it bad salesmanshipoldfort wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:20 pmColleges have net price calculators. While not exact, most people should know whether a CSU or Pomona is cheaper for their family long before the acceptance letters roll in."Worth it" implies that a private university will cost more than a state university. This may or may not be true. You cannot know until you are accepted and receive a financial aid package. It's pointless to argue this in the abstract.
The HYMPS kid I know didn't get to attend last year because mom & dad decided it wasn't worth paying full freight for an online-only experience.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
If you are very high worth, and pay enough for tuition, they name a building after you for freeMarkRoulo wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:27 am
At least one (well known private) school isn't/wasn't smart enough to cap their net-price calculator. If you enter large enough numbers, the calculator comes back with an "expected family contribution" MUCH higher than the advertised list price. I'm sure the school would charge ONLY the very high list price, but I thought it bad salesmanship
Well, you pay a little bit, we're a little bit tough. |
You pay very much, very much tough. |
You pay a too much, we're too much a tough. |
How much you pay? ... Well, then we're plenty tough. - Marx
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
I have zero evidence to back this up, and everyone may jump on me, but if you view this from the graduate school lens for a moment there is an issue with volume. Let's say your kid wants to apply to medical school and attended UCLA for undergrad. There are probably 500, nay 1-2k students applying to medical school from UCLA, all with the same GPA. Compare that to a small liberal arts college, let's say Pomona College, and you may only have 50 students applying to medical school. If you're on the admissions board at the med school, how many students do you want to admit from UCLA?
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Is it like buying a house in a hot market, where the list price is the starting bid?MarkRoulo wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:27 amAt least one (well known private) school isn't/wasn't smart enough to cap their net-price calculator. If you enter large enough numbers, the calculator comes back with an "expected family contribution" MUCH higher than the advertised list price. I'm sure the school would charge ONLY the very high list price, but I thought it bad salesmanshipoldfort wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:20 pmColleges have net price calculators. While not exact, most people should know whether a CSU or Pomona is cheaper for their family long before the acceptance letters roll in."Worth it" implies that a private university will cost more than a state university. This may or may not be true. You cannot know until you are accepted and receive a financial aid package. It's pointless to argue this in the abstract.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
If you can go to college for a savings of $200k over 4 years, assuming it’s a decent (top 200) school, you could probably retire 15 years earlier. I do wonder if parents would be better off saving that money for their kids.
Of course if $200k doesn’t make a dent then that’s a check completely different story.
Of course if $200k doesn’t make a dent then that’s a check completely different story.
The most precious gift we can offer anyone is our attention. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Count of Notre Dame wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:53 am I have zero evidence to back this up, and everyone may jump on me, but if you view this from the graduate school lens for a moment there is an issue with volume. Let's say your kid wants to apply to medical school and attended UCLA for undergrad. There are probably 500, nay 1-2k students applying to medical school from UCLA, all with the same GPA. Compare that to a small liberal arts college, let's say Pomona College, and you may only have 50 students applying to medical school. If you're on the admissions board at the med school, how many students do you want to admit from UCLA?
Speaking from experience as a product of a state university who then applied to medical school (md/PhD programs) I would say this concern is generally overstated. Sure, there will be more total UCLA medical school applicants to med school rejected but the % acceptance rate between comparable public and private universities is similar. Some small liberal arts colleges also have the tendency to try and pad their numbers by restricting who applies to competitive graduate programs like medical school (hence the existence of premed committees at many schools, not just private).
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Great point. Additionally, I would consider whether your child would be considered in the DE&I umbrella (aka diversity) as that may open up some doors. Given a diverse background, it may mean even less of a need to attend a costly private school. I only have mine and my wife's personal experience to go off of. She attended a small liberal arts college and got into a very good medical school, but being 50% hispanic and being a collegiate athlete may have also played a role.mudphudder wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:22 amCount of Notre Dame wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:53 am I have zero evidence to back this up, and everyone may jump on me, but if you view this from the graduate school lens for a moment there is an issue with volume. Let's say your kid wants to apply to medical school and attended UCLA for undergrad. There are probably 500, nay 1-2k students applying to medical school from UCLA, all with the same GPA. Compare that to a small liberal arts college, let's say Pomona College, and you may only have 50 students applying to medical school. If you're on the admissions board at the med school, how many students do you want to admit from UCLA?
Speaking from experience as a product of a state university who then applied to medical school (md/PhD programs) I would say this concern is generally overstated. Sure, there will be more total UCLA medical school applicants to med school rejected but the % acceptance rate between comparable public and private universities is similar. Some small liberal arts colleges also have the tendency to try and pad their numbers by restricting who applies to competitive graduate programs like medical school (hence the existence of premed committees at many schools, not just private).
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Yes, absolutely. I don't fall into the stereotypical diverse bucket of applicants (I was a white kid from the rust belt) but I'm the first in my family to go to college, from a middle income quintile family, and am from a geographic area from which relatively few medical school (particularly md/phd) applicants hail. The majority of medical school matriculants are from families in the top income quintile and the average matriculant has at least one parent with graduate/professional degree. The profession has some major imbalances in this way in addition to racial underrepresentation.Count of Notre Dame wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:35 amGreat point. Additionally, I would consider whether your child would be considered in the DE&I umbrella (aka diversity) as that may open up some doors. Given a diverse background, it may mean even less of a need to attend a costly private school. I only have mine and my wife's personal experience to go off of. She attended a small liberal arts college and got into a very good medical school, but being 50% hispanic and being a collegiate athlete may have also played a role.mudphudder wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:22 amCount of Notre Dame wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:53 am I have zero evidence to back this up, and everyone may jump on me, but if you view this from the graduate school lens for a moment there is an issue with volume. Let's say your kid wants to apply to medical school and attended UCLA for undergrad. There are probably 500, nay 1-2k students applying to medical school from UCLA, all with the same GPA. Compare that to a small liberal arts college, let's say Pomona College, and you may only have 50 students applying to medical school. If you're on the admissions board at the med school, how many students do you want to admit from UCLA?
Speaking from experience as a product of a state university who then applied to medical school (md/PhD programs) I would say this concern is generally overstated. Sure, there will be more total UCLA medical school applicants to med school rejected but the % acceptance rate between comparable public and private universities is similar. Some small liberal arts colleges also have the tendency to try and pad their numbers by restricting who applies to competitive graduate programs like medical school (hence the existence of premed committees at many schools, not just private).
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
I went to a state school and one of my kids went to a state school and the other a private school (but scholarship made cost about the same). I think the decision depends on specifics:
- Going to top tier schools (like Ivy league) does have advantages over public schools. Mostly in alumni networks. My friends that are Ivy Leaguers have a much larger and more connected network than I have. The other advantage is the simple prestige...even many years after graduation, people will have a higher impression of someone with a degree from Harvard vs a degree from Rutgers for example. It's just the way people in the real world act. I've seen it over and over again.
- School size. Some kids need a small school to thrive, while others need large school. Most top tier state schools are on the larger size.
- Major. In majors like Engineering, undergraduate education is identical between Ivy leagues and State schools. (I know the specifics here). But perhaps a private school offers advantages (like smaller classes, more personalized access to professor) in major like philosophy or psychology?
- Is your goal graduate school? Graduate school admissions are credential based and therefore rely on name recognition a lot. If grad school is not in the future plans, State school will be just fine; though many State schools have great reputations as well. Community college would not.
- Many State schools have resources not available at private schools due to their size and funding from the State. Examples include research grants (and therefore opportunities for students), physical facilities, housing options or clubs.
- My view is that cost should be a significant part of the selection decision for the student. I agreed to fund 80% of my kids education but told them they had to pay for 20% of it after they graduated. That made sure they had "skin in the game" so economics was part of their decision criteria. I never actually collected on the money, but it did influence their decisions.
good luck
- Going to top tier schools (like Ivy league) does have advantages over public schools. Mostly in alumni networks. My friends that are Ivy Leaguers have a much larger and more connected network than I have. The other advantage is the simple prestige...even many years after graduation, people will have a higher impression of someone with a degree from Harvard vs a degree from Rutgers for example. It's just the way people in the real world act. I've seen it over and over again.
- School size. Some kids need a small school to thrive, while others need large school. Most top tier state schools are on the larger size.
- Major. In majors like Engineering, undergraduate education is identical between Ivy leagues and State schools. (I know the specifics here). But perhaps a private school offers advantages (like smaller classes, more personalized access to professor) in major like philosophy or psychology?
- Is your goal graduate school? Graduate school admissions are credential based and therefore rely on name recognition a lot. If grad school is not in the future plans, State school will be just fine; though many State schools have great reputations as well. Community college would not.
- Many State schools have resources not available at private schools due to their size and funding from the State. Examples include research grants (and therefore opportunities for students), physical facilities, housing options or clubs.
- My view is that cost should be a significant part of the selection decision for the student. I agreed to fund 80% of my kids education but told them they had to pay for 20% of it after they graduated. That made sure they had "skin in the game" so economics was part of their decision criteria. I never actually collected on the money, but it did influence their decisions.
good luck
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
I agree with the general point, but not the specifics. Ivies are not the best engineering schools. Top tier are certain other privates and publics. E.g. in the CA context of this thread, UC Berkeley has much better rep than any Ivy for engineering.suewolf wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:04 pm - Major. In majors like Engineering, undergraduate education is identical between Ivy leagues and State schools. (I know the specifics here). But perhaps a private school offers advantages (like smaller classes, more personalized access to professor) in major like philosophy or psychology?
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
UCLA has the most med school applicants of any school in the country according to the aamc - 1100. There are a LOT of ucla students at california med schools especially. That said, not sure it's necessarily a pro or con for applying.Count of Notre Dame wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:53 am I have zero evidence to back this up, and everyone may jump on me, but if you view this from the graduate school lens for a moment there is an issue with volume. Let's say your kid wants to apply to medical school and attended UCLA for undergrad. There are probably 500, nay 1-2k students applying to medical school from UCLA, all with the same GPA. Compare that to a small liberal arts college, let's say Pomona College, and you may only have 50 students applying to medical school. If you're on the admissions board at the med school, how many students do you want to admit from UCLA?
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
I’m not a helicopter parent. I’d let my child make the decision. They’re the ones who have to live with it. My student scholars have done well ( both MDs ) by making their own decisions. I’ll put the gas in the tank, they’ll drive the bus.
Respectfully, HVAC
Respectfully, HVAC