The main issue is STEM where a lot of community college just don't offer the level of courses needed. Some don't even offer multivariable calculus, which is a basic course needed for all ABET-accredited engineering degrees. Berkeley EECS tells its transfers to budget an extra semester, or summer, in order to finish the degree since their lower division CS courses are unique to the school. https://eecs.berkeley.edu/resources/und ... -transfersTdubs wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:53 pmI never saw a significant problem with CC transfers among my students. I think the idea that a CC degree leaves you under prepared is a bit of a myth. CC students are as likely to complete a BA/BS degree as HS students who start at a four year. The UC systems has pretty carefully detailed requirements for a CC transfer applicant. There shouldn't be surprises.
https://www.aacu.org/aacu-news/newslett ... ts-figures
Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
For California, the big risk with Community College and engineering majors is that you may not be able to transfer to a UC at al (I don't now the rules for CalState) as an engineer. And the UC engineering programs tend to be impacted (which is why they won't guarantee transfer as an engineer) so you also won't be able to reliably transfer to the UC as, say, a physics major and then transfer to engineering. You can try to transfer, of course, but you'll want a backup plan if you don't get accepted.calwatch wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:46 pmThe main issue is STEM where a lot of community college just don't offer the level of courses needed. Some don't even offer multivariable calculus, which is a basic course needed for all ABET-accredited engineering degrees. Berkeley EECS tells its transfers to budget an extra semester, or summer, in order to finish the degree since their lower division CS courses are unique to the school. https://eecs.berkeley.edu/resources/und ... -transfersTdubs wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:53 pmI never saw a significant problem with CC transfers among my students. I think the idea that a CC degree leaves you under prepared is a bit of a myth. CC students are as likely to complete a BA/BS degree as HS students who start at a four year. The UC systems has pretty carefully detailed requirements for a CC transfer applicant. There shouldn't be surprises.
https://www.aacu.org/aacu-news/newslett ... ts-figures
This is less of a risk for non-engineering majors as long as your GPA is high enough and you pay attention enough to take the right courses.
The pathway from CC -> UC is pretty clear for history/philosophy/literature/math/chemistry/biology/..., but not engineering (including CS) or performing arts.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Depends upon the chosen major.MrCheapo wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:03 am I'd be curious to the general answer for all states but in particular California.
In CA our kids have several options when graduating:
1) Go directly into a U.C. (getting very hard now, the incoming mean GPA of some majors is now 4+)
2) Go into a community college and then transfer to a U.C. (but you could luck out and get stuck with a CC degree).
3) Go the private route either in-state or out of state.
The problem is that the cost of an ENTIRE UC 4 year degree in tuition is about $64K which is not much more than a SINGLE year of private school tuition!
So I can't seem to believe that a private school education is every worth it, but maybe I'm missing something.
Our oldest is at a private school consistently ranked in the top few for his major, He declined an offer to an ivy, Carnegie, Duke, our highly ranked instate and a top ranked out of state U for that reason (general rankings). If he chose a different major, than he would have chosen a different school.
Same is true with relatively lower ranked schools for our other two.
A crucial piece of information I missed (maybe it was stated in the thread somewhere?) is:
What are your kids thinking about in terms of a field(s) of study?
Your answer will (somewhat) reduce the subjectivity of responses and result in a more fruitful use of everyone's time, along with more valid, actionable guidance for you, the OP.
"A portfolio is like a bar of soap, the more it's handled, the less there is." Dr. William Bernstein
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Impossible to say, it will vary greatly depending on the state you're from, the private school you're considering, and what you're paying for each.
Remember lots of folks get significant financial aid from private schools.
I went to a private school with good financial aid and I'd say it was worth it relative to my next best option (one of the top NY state schools). Smaller classes, a smarter and generally more ambitious group of students, and I managed to get interviews for jobs in management consulting and investment banking that I wouldn't have otherwise had as easily.
There were many intangible benefits, but I'm not sure all else equal a top private school will help you make more money or something than a public school. There are just so many variables (ambition and grit especially) and there are so many folks who went to crummy schools who do extremely well for themselves and people from top schools who don't. Also if you want to go to law or med school, your undergrad just doesn't matter too much.
For CA residents -- I would have a hard time justifying paying the sticker price for just about any state school relative to just about any UC school. Especially if a kid can't get into a UC, I think it would be much smarter to go to a Cal State or a community college and try to transfer to Berkeley or UCLA.
Remember lots of folks get significant financial aid from private schools.
I went to a private school with good financial aid and I'd say it was worth it relative to my next best option (one of the top NY state schools). Smaller classes, a smarter and generally more ambitious group of students, and I managed to get interviews for jobs in management consulting and investment banking that I wouldn't have otherwise had as easily.
There were many intangible benefits, but I'm not sure all else equal a top private school will help you make more money or something than a public school. There are just so many variables (ambition and grit especially) and there are so many folks who went to crummy schools who do extremely well for themselves and people from top schools who don't. Also if you want to go to law or med school, your undergrad just doesn't matter too much.
For CA residents -- I would have a hard time justifying paying the sticker price for just about any state school relative to just about any UC school. Especially if a kid can't get into a UC, I think it would be much smarter to go to a Cal State or a community college and try to transfer to Berkeley or UCLA.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
We were fortunate... One to the honors program at our state school and one to a Service Academy.
DD went to the State School with a $3500/year grant each year from the school for being in the honors program. She got in to one Ivy which offered tuition assistance of $140/year. I guess this allowed then to say everyone is offered assistance.
She followed this with any an Ivy medical school (on her dime). The state school was the best choice for her... she loved the experience and performed as needed to get into the med school of her choice.
So, I'd say the state school... if your child is motivated to do what's needed to take the next step (grades, organizations, sports,...)
DD went to the State School with a $3500/year grant each year from the school for being in the honors program. She got in to one Ivy which offered tuition assistance of $140/year. I guess this allowed then to say everyone is offered assistance.
She followed this with any an Ivy medical school (on her dime). The state school was the best choice for her... she loved the experience and performed as needed to get into the med school of her choice.
So, I'd say the state school... if your child is motivated to do what's needed to take the next step (grades, organizations, sports,...)
'In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.' Yogi Berra
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Did you see in that AACU resource that the average time to graduate for them is about three years?Tdubs wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:53 pm I never saw a significant problem with CC transfers among my students. I think the idea that a CC degree leaves you under prepared is a bit of a myth. CC students are as likely to complete a BA/BS degree as HS students who start at a four year. The UC systems has pretty carefully detailed requirements for a CC transfer applicant. There shouldn't be surprises.
https://www.aacu.org/aacu-news/newslett ... ts-figures
CCs sell this myth that if you do two years there, you'll complete a bachelor's degree in two more years. That's not how it works, though.
And as I pointed out earlier, and others have since, it strongly depends on the major. In some majors you can do a lot at a CC. In STEM, not so much. I've never, ever heard of a CC that offers anything beyond first-year courses in physics, for example. So I get students showing up who've completed a ton of gen ed and little to nothing in their major. They end up with a hollow schedule of major classes that keep them there for four years, but may not get them to full-time status.
I've had amazing CC transfers too. Some of my best students. And plenty of students who started at a CC and found their feet taking remedial and should-be-called-remedial classes, that then got them up to speed for a four-year degree.
I also took a bunch of CC classes myself as a high school student. Not a single credit transferred to my (elite, private) four-year institution. Matt Reed, running a community college and writing at Inside Higher Education, frequently complains about transfer issues (of course he blames the four-years). Transfer of credits, even within state to public institutions, is something CC students have to constantly pay attention to. Even when the criteria are clearly laid out, seeing them when you apply to transfer is way too late. And some students don't see them until then.
And that's not even getting into the issue I raised earlier, with mixed quarter and semester systems. Berkeley is semesters, UCLA on quarters. Whatever your CC was on, you are going to have problems transferring to some of the UCs.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Well, not everywhere.nisiprius wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:06 pm The elephant in the room is "social prestige." According to Wikipedia, in 1908, Scotsman Robert Knox Risk wroteOf course, it isn't 1908.Princeton, like [Harvard and Yale], confers some social distinction upon its graduates. In this respect Harvard, Yale, and Princeton are the Western Counterparts of Oxford and Cambridge, and are maintained largely for the sons of rich men. Members of the American aristocracy would send their boys to one or other of these three universities if there were any aristocracy in the United States
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
I went to Caltech (when it wasn't so pricy, in the 1970s). The undergraduate education is nearly unique in America, perhaps only MIT compares. It is "drink from the firehose" for science and engineering, working from basic principles on up. For the right kid, it is the right place to go - the kid with a thirst for technical knowledge and ability, to learn how to think about these things. It was a joke among us that the "losers" dropped out to go to Stanford or other down-market schools.Vulcan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:13 pm The few top universities that are arguably worth their price are not ones whose typical student can benefit from community college offerings, and their admissions are significantly more selective than UC (as evidenced by average test scores; e.g. 25%-75% ACT UCLA 29-35; Caltech 35-36).
But I mean it when I say the right kid. Otherwise, going to Caltech would be an expensive mistake. And yes, it is hard to get into.
Beyond all hope, set free to light.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Agreed. Those two are outliers in many ways.rwcox123 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:44 pmI went to Caltech (when it wasn't so pricy, in the 1970s). The undergraduate education is nearly unique in America, perhaps only MIT compares.Vulcan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:13 pm The few top universities that are arguably worth their price are not ones whose typical student can benefit from community college offerings, and their admissions are significantly more selective than UC (as evidenced by average test scores; e.g. 25%-75% ACT UCLA 29-35; Caltech 35-36).
It is "drink from the firehose" for science and engineering, working from basic principles on up. For the right kid, it is the right place to go - the kid with a thirst for technical knowledge and ability, to learn how to think about these things. It was a joke among us that the "losers" dropped out to go to Stanford or other down-market schools.
But I mean it when I say the right kid. Otherwise, going to Caltech would be an expensive mistake. And yes, it is hard to get into.
And the friendly rivalry between the them is hilarious.
Take this mug Caltech students distributed to MIT prefrosh, for example.
Our elder was accepted to both, and even though he chose MIT for a variety of reasons (they, too, pride themselves on their fire hose approach, and DS is loving it there), we sorta know that Caltech is the one that is really hardcore.
...Well, maybe for grad school. Plus he has a similarly-minded younger brother - may he be as lucky with admissions...
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
The OP made no mention of a STEM major in the first few posts (maybe later?). The question was directed as costs, and even a five-year plan on the CC to public four-year college track is a cost savings in most cases. I appreciate that there can be complications in CC transfers that require a longer stay at a four-year for STEM majors. I notice for example Berkeley engineering majors expect an extra semester from transfers.Charon wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:31 pmDid you see in that AACU resource that the average time to graduate for them is about three years?Tdubs wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:53 pm I never saw a significant problem with CC transfers among my students. I think the idea that a CC degree leaves you under prepared is a bit of a myth. CC students are as likely to complete a BA/BS degree as HS students who start at a four year. The UC systems has pretty carefully detailed requirements for a CC transfer applicant. There shouldn't be surprises.
https://www.aacu.org/aacu-news/newslett ... ts-figures
CCs sell this myth that if you do two years there, you'll complete a bachelor's degree in two more years. That's not how it works, though.
And as I pointed out earlier, and others have since, it strongly depends on the major. In some majors you can do a lot at a CC. In STEM, not so much. I've never, ever heard of a CC that offers anything beyond first-year courses in physics, for example. So I get students showing up who've completed a ton of gen ed and little to nothing in their major. They end up with a hollow schedule of major classes that keep them there for four years, but may not get them to full-time status.
I've had amazing CC transfers too. Some of my best students. And plenty of students who started at a CC and found their feet taking remedial and should-be-called-remedial classes, that then got them up to speed for a four-year degree.
I also took a bunch of CC classes myself as a high school student. Not a single credit transferred to my (elite, private) four-year institution. Matt Reed, running a community college and writing at Inside Higher Education, frequently complains about transfer issues (of course he blames the four-years). Transfer of credits, even within state to public institutions, is something CC students have to constantly pay attention to. Even when the criteria are clearly laid out, seeing them when you apply to transfer is way too late. And some students don't see them until then.
And that's not even getting into the issue I raised earlier, with mixed quarter and semester systems. Berkeley is semesters, UCLA on quarters. Whatever your CC was on, you are going to have problems transferring to some of the UCs.
But extra time is hardly unique to transfers or STEM majors. The average time to completion among all college students is six years, and this isn't just because of STEMs. The award for making college a career at my institution went to teaching majors. Whether you follow a CC or four-year college path in teacher ed, any mistake in gen ed selections or timing of course work will push you into a fifth year. We had this issue all the time with our four-year students and transfers alike. The legislature hated the extra costs of teaching majors taking extra courses. So, the three year average you mention doesn't surprise me. It happens to lots of students no matter what path they choose.
On the other hand, IF you knew right off that you wanted to be a teacher and enrolled in an AA teaching major at a CC, you left with a clean degree that made entry into a state school seamless. As you say, CCs do "sell" the idea that you can be done in four years and sometimes that isn't true, but four-year colleges "sell" that idea too. Neither are telling the whole truth.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Two comments:Charon wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:31 pmDid you see in that AACU resource that the average time to graduate for them is about three years?Tdubs wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:53 pm I never saw a significant problem with CC transfers among my students. I think the idea that a CC degree leaves you under prepared is a bit of a myth. CC students are as likely to complete a BA/BS degree as HS students who start at a four year. The UC systems has pretty carefully detailed requirements for a CC transfer applicant. There shouldn't be surprises.
https://www.aacu.org/aacu-news/newslett ... ts-figures
CCs sell this myth that if you do two years there, you'll complete a bachelor's degree in two more years. That's not how it works, though.
And as I pointed out earlier, and others have since, it strongly depends on the major. In some majors you can do a lot at a CC. In STEM, not so much. I've never, ever heard of a CC that offers anything beyond first-year courses in physics, for example.
And that's not even getting into the issue I raised earlier, with mixed quarter and semester systems. Berkeley is semesters, UCLA on quarters. Whatever your CC was on, you are going to have problems transferring to some of the UCs.
(1) As nearly as I can tell, West Valley Community College offers the full intro-to-physics sequence: PHYS 4A, 4B, 4C and 4D seem to line up with the first two years of physics that I remember from my UC days.
West Valley also offers a full year of Calculus, as well as Differential Equations and Linear Algebra.
So I think you *can* go there an transfer to a UC on-track to get out with a physics degree in four years. I'll ignore the "are the courses taught equally well, etc." discussion. They are offered and they are accepted for transfer.
(2) Semester -> Quarter or the reverse is a non-issue if you take full sequences. West Valley teaches US history as a 2 semester sequence. Quarter system UCs do this in three quarters. If you take the entire one year sequence (2 semesters or three quarters) then transferring isn't an issue. If you close out your IGETC then you are done with GEs and only need to (a) finish your major classes and (b) take enough other units to graduate.
The quarter->semester thing can be a problem, but doesn't have to be.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
For a five year degree still costing less, it's not clear to me. You have to look at the opportunity cost of not working for that year (and possibly delaying the rest of your life).Tdubs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:28 pmThe OP made no mention of a STEM major in the first few posts (maybe later?). The question was directed as costs, and even a five-year plan on the CC to public four-year college track is a cost savings in most cases. I appreciate that there can be complications in CC transfers that require a longer stay at a four-year for STEM majors. I notice for example Berkeley engineering majors expect an extra semester from transfers.Charon wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:31 pmDid you see in that AACU resource that the average time to graduate for them is about three years?Tdubs wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:53 pm I never saw a significant problem with CC transfers among my students. I think the idea that a CC degree leaves you under prepared is a bit of a myth. CC students are as likely to complete a BA/BS degree as HS students who start at a four year. The UC systems has pretty carefully detailed requirements for a CC transfer applicant. There shouldn't be surprises.
https://www.aacu.org/aacu-news/newslett ... ts-figures
CCs sell this myth that if you do two years there, you'll complete a bachelor's degree in two more years. That's not how it works, though.
And as I pointed out earlier, and others have since, it strongly depends on the major. In some majors you can do a lot at a CC. In STEM, not so much. I've never, ever heard of a CC that offers anything beyond first-year courses in physics, for example. So I get students showing up who've completed a ton of gen ed and little to nothing in their major. They end up with a hollow schedule of major classes that keep them there for four years, but may not get them to full-time status.
I've had amazing CC transfers too. Some of my best students. And plenty of students who started at a CC and found their feet taking remedial and should-be-called-remedial classes, that then got them up to speed for a four-year degree.
I also took a bunch of CC classes myself as a high school student. Not a single credit transferred to my (elite, private) four-year institution. Matt Reed, running a community college and writing at Inside Higher Education, frequently complains about transfer issues (of course he blames the four-years). Transfer of credits, even within state to public institutions, is something CC students have to constantly pay attention to. Even when the criteria are clearly laid out, seeing them when you apply to transfer is way too late. And some students don't see them until then.
And that's not even getting into the issue I raised earlier, with mixed quarter and semester systems. Berkeley is semesters, UCLA on quarters. Whatever your CC was on, you are going to have problems transferring to some of the UCs.
But extra time is hardly unique to transfers or STEM majors. The average time to completion among all college students is six years, and this isn't just because of STEMs. The award for making college a career at my institution went to teaching majors. Whether you follow a CC or four-year college path in teacher ed, any mistake in gen ed selections or timing of course work will push you into a fifth year. We had this issue all the time with our four-year students and transfers alike. The legislature hated the extra costs of teaching majors taking extra courses. So, the three year average you mention doesn't surprise me. It happens to lots of students no matter what path they choose.
On the other hand, IF you knew right off that you wanted to be a teacher and enrolled in an AA teaching major at a CC, you left with a clean degree that made entry into a state school seamless. As you say, CCs do "sell" the idea that you can be done in four years and sometimes that isn't true, but four-year colleges "sell" that idea too. Neither are telling the whole truth.
Taking more than four years to graduate is because something went wrong. If you don't fail a course or change majors or institutions you should graduate in for years. However, some majors (e.g. STEM, and honestly probably math is not included here, just as it often shouldn't be) are more susceptible to getting set back a year of anything goes wrong. This is mostly a function of the longest sequence of prerequisites. For engineering, the sequence likely lasts your entire four years. For other majors upper level classes one require one gateway class or any lower level class from the department. How often courses are offered is also a factor. You can examine all this ahead of time for programs of interest, though it may change of you're not matriculated.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Are you in California? It doesn’t seem hard to find exactly what you need to successfully transfer to specific programs, what CC courses transfer for different degrees at every UC or CSU, and where you might find alternative courses online to meet requirements:Charon wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:31 pmDid you see in that AACU resource that the average time to graduate for them is about three years?Tdubs wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:53 pm I never saw a significant problem with CC transfers among my students. I think the idea that a CC degree leaves you under prepared is a bit of a myth. CC students are as likely to complete a BA/BS degree as HS students who start at a four year. The UC systems has pretty carefully detailed requirements for a CC transfer applicant. There shouldn't be surprises.
https://www.aacu.org/aacu-news/newslett ... ts-figures
CCs sell this myth that if you do two years there, you'll complete a bachelor's degree in two more years. That's not how it works, though.
And as I pointed out earlier, and others have since, it strongly depends on the major. In some majors you can do a lot at a CC. In STEM, not so much. I've never, ever heard of a CC that offers anything beyond first-year courses in physics, for example. So I get students showing up who've completed a ton of gen ed and little to nothing in their major. They end up with a hollow schedule of major classes that keep them there for four years, but may not get them to full-time status.
I've had amazing CC transfers too. Some of my best students. And plenty of students who started at a CC and found their feet taking remedial and should-be-called-remedial classes, that then got them up to speed for a four-year degree.
I also took a bunch of CC classes myself as a high school student. Not a single credit transferred to my (elite, private) four-year institution. Matt Reed, running a community college and writing at Inside Higher Education, frequently complains about transfer issues (of course he blames the four-years). Transfer of credits, even within state to public institutions, is something CC students have to constantly pay attention to. Even when the criteria are clearly laid out, seeing them when you apply to transfer is way too late. And some students don't see them until then.
And that's not even getting into the issue I raised earlier, with mixed quarter and semester systems. Berkeley is semesters, UCLA on quarters. Whatever your CC was on, you are going to have problems transferring to some of the UCs.
https://assist.org
https://cvc.edu
It seems like the California CC system offers plenty of “Associates Degree for Transfer” programs in STEM fields.
It seems to me that students need to research graduation requirements no matter where they go to college.Even when the criteria are clearly laid out, seeing them when you apply to transfer is way too late.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
The year lost might be more costly for high paying entry level majors, but the difference between someone living at home while going to the local CC and attending a private on campus is probably $60-80k over two years easy unless you are getting a nice package. For most students, that isn't the job they are going to get.AnEngineer wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:12 pmFor a five year degree still costing less, it's not clear to me. You have to look at the opportunity cost of not working for that year (and possibly delaying the rest of your life).Tdubs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:28 pmThe OP made no mention of a STEM major in the first few posts (maybe later?). The question was directed as costs, and even a five-year plan on the CC to public four-year college track is a cost savings in most cases. I appreciate that there can be complications in CC transfers that require a longer stay at a four-year for STEM majors. I notice for example Berkeley engineering majors expect an extra semester from transfers.Charon wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:31 pmDid you see in that AACU resource that the average time to graduate for them is about three years?Tdubs wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:53 pm I never saw a significant problem with CC transfers among my students. I think the idea that a CC degree leaves you under prepared is a bit of a myth. CC students are as likely to complete a BA/BS degree as HS students who start at a four year. The UC systems has pretty carefully detailed requirements for a CC transfer applicant. There shouldn't be surprises.
https://www.aacu.org/aacu-news/newslett ... ts-figures
CCs sell this myth that if you do two years there, you'll complete a bachelor's degree in two more years. That's not how it works, though.
And as I pointed out earlier, and others have since, it strongly depends on the major. In some majors you can do a lot at a CC. In STEM, not so much. I've never, ever heard of a CC that offers anything beyond first-year courses in physics, for example. So I get students showing up who've completed a ton of gen ed and little to nothing in their major. They end up with a hollow schedule of major classes that keep them there for four years, but may not get them to full-time status.
I've had amazing CC transfers too. Some of my best students. And plenty of students who started at a CC and found their feet taking remedial and should-be-called-remedial classes, that then got them up to speed for a four-year degree.
I also took a bunch of CC classes myself as a high school student. Not a single credit transferred to my (elite, private) four-year institution. Matt Reed, running a community college and writing at Inside Higher Education, frequently complains about transfer issues (of course he blames the four-years). Transfer of credits, even within state to public institutions, is something CC students have to constantly pay attention to. Even when the criteria are clearly laid out, seeing them when you apply to transfer is way too late. And some students don't see them until then.
And that's not even getting into the issue I raised earlier, with mixed quarter and semester systems. Berkeley is semesters, UCLA on quarters. Whatever your CC was on, you are going to have problems transferring to some of the UCs.
But extra time is hardly unique to transfers or STEM majors. The average time to completion among all college students is six years, and this isn't just because of STEMs. The award for making college a career at my institution went to teaching majors. Whether you follow a CC or four-year college path in teacher ed, any mistake in gen ed selections or timing of course work will push you into a fifth year. We had this issue all the time with our four-year students and transfers alike. The legislature hated the extra costs of teaching majors taking extra courses. So, the three year average you mention doesn't surprise me. It happens to lots of students no matter what path they choose.
On the other hand, IF you knew right off that you wanted to be a teacher and enrolled in an AA teaching major at a CC, you left with a clean degree that made entry into a state school seamless. As you say, CCs do "sell" the idea that you can be done in four years and sometimes that isn't true, but four-year colleges "sell" that idea too. Neither are telling the whole truth.
Taking more than four years to graduate is because something went wrong. If you don't fail a course or change majors or institutions you should graduate in for years. However, some majors (e.g. STEM, and honestly probably math is not included here, just as it often shouldn't be) are more susceptible to getting set back a year of anything goes wrong. This is mostly a function of the longest sequence of prerequisites. For engineering, the sequence likely lasts your entire four years. For other majors upper level classes one require one gateway class or any lower level class from the department. How often courses are offered is also a factor. You can examine all this ahead of time for programs of interest, though it may change of you're not matriculated.
While students should graduate in four years, most do not. We could say something went wrong, or maybe we just have to accept this sorting out is necessary at the college level to help students avoid choosing a profession they hate so much they spend most of their working careers dreaming of and saving for retirement. Doing that on the cheap at a CC might not be a bad option.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
I would guess it depends on the state. My state (Wisconsin) has a great state university system. I went to a state school as did my oldest and we've both done very well for ourselves.
Have you ever gone to a doctor and before speaking with them, asked them what school they attended? I doubt it. You just want to make sure they know what they are doing.
I know of way too many people with huge college debt (six figures) because they went to an "in" private school. I have a sister-in law making $35K on a $60K a year school degree. Of course the degree matters too.
Have you ever gone to a doctor and before speaking with them, asked them what school they attended? I doubt it. You just want to make sure they know what they are doing.
I know of way too many people with huge college debt (six figures) because they went to an "in" private school. I have a sister-in law making $35K on a $60K a year school degree. Of course the degree matters too.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Is there a way to test/quantify this claim? I ask because kid #1 wants to do biology and I thought biology was impacted?
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Biology as a major is one of the lowest paying STEM degrees. (A gazillion premed washouts looking for jobs.) If Kid 1 is thinking grad/professional school in biosciences, then a 4-year is highly recommended.
btw: Biology is not impacted at Berkeley.
http://mcb.berkeley.edu/undergrad/advis ... s#impacted
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
OP: your income matters, a lot. My kid #1 attended an Ivy for less than the cost of a UC. (Tippy top schools have generous need-based aid.) Kid #2 attended a top ~30 private for not much more than the cost of a UC. To me, a private offers better faculty advising (UC's start with peer advisors, i.e., other undergrads), housing, on-campus research opportunities, recommendations for grad/professional schools, integrated study abroad, and other benefits. The personal growth and development for attending college out of state... Whether they are of value to your family is a personal decision.MrCheapo wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:03 am I'd be curious to the general answer for all states but in particular California.
In CA our kids have several options when graduating:
1) Go directly into a U.C. (getting very hard now, the incoming mean GPA of some majors is now 4+)
2) Go into a community college and then transfer to a U.C. (but you could luck out and get stuck with a CC degree).
3) Go the private route either in-state or out of state.
The problem is that the cost of an ENTIRE UC 4 year degree in tuition is about $64K which is not much more than a SINGLE year of private school tuition!
So I can't seem to believe that a private school education is every worth it, but maybe I'm missing something.
Last edited by Big Dog on Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Page 2 here:
https://admission.universityofcaliforni ... matrix.pdf
has the excluded majors for the TAG program by campus.
The Community Colleges course catalogues spell out the transferability (CalState, UC or both) for each class so you need to ensure that the classes you take transfer.
This site: https://assist.org/
provides the mapping of classes from each Community College to the various UC and CalState campuses.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
If your student wants a liberal arts degree, I recommend honors colleges/programs in state schools. I went that route, and my classmates and professors were as smart and dedicated as those in the private schools.
A motivated student will graduate with a solid education and negligible debt.
Of course this might not be ideal if your student wants a career where pedigree and connections matter, like STEM, finance, or academia.
A motivated student will graduate with a solid education and negligible debt.
Of course this might not be ideal if your student wants a career where pedigree and connections matter, like STEM, finance, or academia.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
I agree public vs expensive private may change the math. However, if working until a fixed age, it's actually the last year of working that you lose. Also, if your salary is not on par with the annual cost of college, I'd wonder whether it makes sense to attend that school at all.Tdubs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:55 pm The year lost might be more costly for high paying entry level majors, but the difference between someone living at home while going to the local CC and attending a private on campus is probably $60-80k over two years easy unless you are getting a nice package. For most students, that isn't the job they are going to get.
I doubt if the four year graduation rates are actually that bad. Google says at public schools you are right, but not at private, but I know there are methodological flaws in how the data is collected (e.g. transfer doesn't count).While students should graduate in four years, most do not. We could say something went wrong, or maybe we just have to accept this sorting out is necessary at the college level to help students avoid choosing a profession they hate so much they spend most of their working careers dreaming of and saving for retirement. Doing that on the cheap at a CC might not be a bad option.
Maybe I'm biased coming from an engineering perspective, but in my experience college does not enable you to figure out what you want to do there. You could find that you don't like your major, but you won't have taken other engineering courses much at that point. I've seen more flexibility amongst the humanities, and being undeclared may set you up for that and take a few different intro courses. But if you start on that track you won't be exposed to enough STEM early enough to be drawn in.
Prepared students who have a plan and don't fail take four years, so accepting a CC will take an extra year makes no sense. If you can do 2+2, that's great. CC can also be a bad place to figure out a major, as many departments don't exist. But to figure out if you can fit in general areas, that makes a lot of sense to me.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
In support of what you wrote :MarkRoulo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:00 pm (1) As nearly as I can tell, West Valley Community College offers the full intro-to-physics sequence: PHYS 4A, 4B, 4C and 4D seem to line up with the first two years of physics that I remember from my UC days.
West Valley also offers a full year of Calculus, as well as Differential Equations and Linear Algebra.
So I think you *can* go there an transfer to a UC on-track to get out with a physics degree in four years. I'll ignore the "are the courses taught equally well, etc." discussion. They are offered and they are accepted for transfer.
My son took all the math courses on offer at west valley (and mission) when he was in high school (concurrent enrollment). His experience was that the multi variable calculus, differential equations courses at west valley were exceptionally well taught. The teacher spared no effort to ensure the students actually got it. The exams were tough. In the end only serious students remained in the class. The material is no different than what he is seeing taught in college (he placed out of them in college). He took discrete math at mission college and had a fantastic teacher there. I have also heard linear algebra at mission college is taught well. I would actually make the argument that community college courses are better taught compared to universities !
The semester vs quarter thing is a non issue. 3 semesters == 4 quarters. The calculus sequence is 3 semesters at west valley and mission and 4 quarters at de anza and foothill. If you complete the sequence you get to place out at a UC.
There are plenty of students who have transferred from CCs to mid tier UCs for CS. Is it easy ? No. You have to work for it. But it is certainly doable.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Just to clarify, I wasn't referring overall graduation rates. I was referring to the percentage that graduate in four years. Most don't.AnEngineer wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:56 pmI agree public vs expensive private may change the math. However, if working until a fixed age, it's actually the last year of working that you lose. Also, if your salary is not on par with the annual cost of college, I'd wonder whether it makes sense to attend that school at all.Tdubs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:55 pm The year lost might be more costly for high paying entry level majors, but the difference between someone living at home while going to the local CC and attending a private on campus is probably $60-80k over two years easy unless you are getting a nice package. For most students, that isn't the job they are going to get.
I doubt if the four year graduation rates are actually that bad. Google says at public schools you are right, but not at private, but I know there are methodological flaws in how the data is collected (e.g. transfer doesn't count).While students should graduate in four years, most do not. We could say something went wrong, or maybe we just have to accept this sorting out is necessary at the college level to help students avoid choosing a profession they hate so much they spend most of their working careers dreaming of and saving for retirement. Doing that on the cheap at a CC might not be a bad option.
Maybe I'm biased coming from an engineering perspective, but in my experience college does not enable you to figure out what you want to do there. You could find that you don't like your major, but you won't have taken other engineering courses much at that point. I've seen more flexibility amongst the humanities, and being undeclared may set you up for that and take a few different intro courses. But if you start on that track you won't be exposed to enough STEM early enough to be drawn in.
Prepared students who have a plan and don't fail take four years, so accepting a CC will take an extra year makes no sense. If you can do 2+2, that's great. CC can also be a bad place to figure out a major, as many departments don't exist. But to figure out if you can fit in general areas, that makes a lot of sense to me.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
I know.Tdubs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:16 pmJust to clarify, I wasn't referring overall graduation rates. I was referring to the percentage that graduate in four years. Most don't.AnEngineer wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:56 pmI agree public vs expensive private may change the math. However, if working until a fixed age, it's actually the last year of working that you lose. Also, if your salary is not on par with the annual cost of college, I'd wonder whether it makes sense to attend that school at all.Tdubs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:55 pm The year lost might be more costly for high paying entry level majors, but the difference between someone living at home while going to the local CC and attending a private on campus is probably $60-80k over two years easy unless you are getting a nice package. For most students, that isn't the job they are going to get.
I doubt if the four year graduation rates are actually that bad. Google says at public schools you are right, but not at private, but I know there are methodological flaws in how the data is collected (e.g. transfer doesn't count).While students should graduate in four years, most do not. We could say something went wrong, or maybe we just have to accept this sorting out is necessary at the college level to help students avoid choosing a profession they hate so much they spend most of their working careers dreaming of and saving for retirement. Doing that on the cheap at a CC might not be a bad option.
Maybe I'm biased coming from an engineering perspective, but in my experience college does not enable you to figure out what you want to do there. You could find that you don't like your major, but you won't have taken other engineering courses much at that point. I've seen more flexibility amongst the humanities, and being undeclared may set you up for that and take a few different intro courses. But if you start on that track you won't be exposed to enough STEM early enough to be drawn in.
Prepared students who have a plan and don't fail take four years, so accepting a CC will take an extra year makes no sense. If you can do 2+2, that's great. CC can also be a bad place to figure out a major, as many departments don't exist. But to figure out if you can fit in general areas, that makes a lot of sense to me.
https://www.cappex.com/articles/blog/go ... -rate-dataThe official four-year graduation rate for students attending public colleges and universities is 33.3%. The six-year rate is 57.6%. At private colleges and universities, the four-year graduation rate is 52.8%, and 65.4% earn a degree in six years.
The U.S. Department of Education compiles these statistics, but despite being official, the graduation-rate figures aren’t as accurate as you might assume. This is because of the way the U.S. Department of Education requires schools to report degree attainment by students who graduate from their institutions.
But my point is you have to look at why. The statistics for a population don't matter if you don't match the population.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
+1, The minimum wage will soon be $15 in a lot of places. If you don't expect to land a job paying at least $40k, you should reconsider whether it makes sense to go to college at all from a financial perspective.AnEngineer wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:56 pmI agree public vs expensive private may change the math. However, if working until a fixed age, it's actually the last year of working that you lose. Also, if your salary is not on par with the annual cost of college, I'd wonder whether it makes sense to attend that school at all.Tdubs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:55 pm The year lost might be more costly for high paying entry level majors, but the difference between someone living at home while going to the local CC and attending a private on campus is probably $60-80k over two years easy unless you are getting a nice package. For most students, that isn't the job they are going to get.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
My 27yr old step-sister is working on her teaching credential after graduating 3yrs ago and then spending 2 of the last 3yrs teaching English overseas. She's aiming for an elementary teaching job, that'll likely start off in the $34-36k/yr range. Meanwhile, her 17yr old sister with a learning disability, who is highly unlikely to graduate high school, is making $16.50/hr at Del Taco, simply because she'll show up (rarely on time). How are college counselors still able to convince poor students that going to college is the only way?oldfort wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:56 pm+1, The minimum wage will soon be $15 in a lot of places. If you don't expect to land a job paying at least $40k, you should reconsider whether it makes sense to go to college at all from a financial perspective.AnEngineer wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:56 pmI agree public vs expensive private may change the math. However, if working until a fixed age, it's actually the last year of working that you lose. Also, if your salary is not on par with the annual cost of college, I'd wonder whether it makes sense to attend that school at all.Tdubs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:55 pm The year lost might be more costly for high paying entry level majors, but the difference between someone living at home while going to the local CC and attending a private on campus is probably $60-80k over two years easy unless you are getting a nice package. For most students, that isn't the job they are going to get.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
@stoptothink…….If this was a discussion I was having with my kid I’d make the point that in 20 years the teacher will be making three times what the fast food worker is making, not even counting the benefits a teaching position garners. Any counselor worth their salt would easily make those points.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Except that isn't the case, how many public school teachers make $150k+/yr? My step-father has been teaching in public schools for over 20yrs, he doesn't even make 50% more than the average manager of a Del Taco (~$51k/yr, with benefits). I know this is Lake Wobegon where everybody's kids are choosing between HYPMS, but there is a significant segment of the population who will struggle mightily to get through college, and likely would not benefit even if they did complete a degree. My sister has a learning disability, was already held back a grade and has almost no chance of graduating high school at this point; her counselor should be reprimanded for constantly drilling into her head that college is the only way (and her public school teaching father agrees completely).h82goslw wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:38 am @stoptothink…….If this was a discussion I was having with my kid I’d make the point that in 20 years the teacher will be making three times what the fast food worker is making, not even counting the benefits a teaching position garners. Any counselor worth their salt would easily make those points.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
And so another non-actionable post will drone on, and on, and on.....
"A portfolio is like a bar of soap, the more it's handled, the less there is." Dr. William Bernstein
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Second. I'll only speak for my industry, but I've spent about 10 years in biglaw and 10 years in smalllaw, and in that time I can't recall ever having an undergraduate school be relevant to a hiring decision. Law school prestige matters, to a certain extent. The factors that will go into which law school you get into are, in descending order, (a) LSAT score, (b) GPA, (c) any connections with the law school [e.g. if you go to a school for undergrad, you'll probably have a slightly better shot at getting into their law school than someone from another school with comparable LSAT and grades; moreso if Daddy contributed a dorm ] (d) undergrad school, and (e) intangibles (essay quality, interview skills, demographics, etc.). Depending on circumstances, (d) and (e) can flip spots.anon_investor wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:47 pmAs former biglaw, I can say undergrad means not all that much good grades are more important, and the LSAT likely the most important. Law school is a different story, if you can get into a top 14/15 law school that cost may be worth it over a lesser law school (if your goal is biglaw).mceagle555 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:36 pm As someone who has worked in Higher Education & tech for 20+ years:
- Private university (Top-20) worth it for those going into big-law or government/politics?: Yes. This is all about connections.
- Private university (Top-20) worth it for tech jobs?: No. Focus on good state schools + certifications. Tech is already heavily being swayed towards certifications.
- Private university (Top-20) worth it for liberal arts?: Absolutely not.
But I don't think the OP mentioned the kind of private college/university. I think an Ivy league may be worth it over a lesser UC. An Ivy over UC Berkely/LA, tougher call.
People talk about connections and social networks kids can get through schools, which can open doors for summer jobs and the like. Maybe. Occasionally. But don't count on it, and don't pay more for the possibility that your kid's freshman year dorm mate might be the daughter of the local bank's president; she's just as likely to to wind up at the local state school, or the community college down the road.
Incidentally, again speaking only of the legal worlds, prestige of schools matters, but not in a really granular way. There are basically a handful of tiers of law schools:
top 3
top 14
top 25 or so
top 1/4
top 3/4
don't bother, it's just a student loan mill.
In my biglaw job, if you were H/L/S you could basically write your own ticket, but if you weren't in the top 25 (or the particular, non-top 25 school the head of our hiring committee went to and was on the Board of), you could basically forget it. In my smalllaw job, we mostly recruit from local schools, with a strong preference for those in the top 1/4, but when somebody from a top 25 school comes across our radar we'll take a close look. In any case, I would never urge anyone to put much weight into choosing between #28 and #32, for instance.
My guess is it's similar for undergrad: nobody but parents and a handful of eccentric alums cares about the distinction between the 4th and the 6th best UC school, etc.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
+1. If I had it all to do over again, I'd probably have skipped law school and become a plumber. I'm pretty confident I'd be in a roughly equivalent place now, economically--10 years of paying off student loans really takes it out of you (and I'm lucky to have paid them off; most kids who don't go to biglaw never do, these days).stoptothink wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:50 amExcept that isn't the case, how many public school teachers make $150k+/yr? My step-father has been teaching in public schools for over 20yrs, he doesn't even make 50% more than the average manager of a Del Taco (~$51k/yr, with benefits). I know this is Lake Wobegon where everybody's kids are choosing between HYPMS, but there is a significant segment of the population who will struggle mightily to get through college, and likely would not benefit even if they did complete a degree. My sister has a learning disability, was already held back a grade and has almost no chance of graduating high school at this point; her counselor should be reprimanded for constantly drilling into her head that college is the only way (and her public school teaching father agrees completely).h82goslw wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:38 am @stoptothink…….If this was a discussion I was having with my kid I’d make the point that in 20 years the teacher will be making three times what the fast food worker is making, not even counting the benefits a teaching position garners. Any counselor worth their salt would easily make those points.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
That makes sense if money is the only (or even the most important) consideration for work. For many people, it isn't.Toadie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:35 am
+1. If I had it all to do over again, I'd probably have skipped law school and become a plumber. I'm pretty confident I'd be in a roughly equivalent place now, economically--10 years of paying off student loans really takes it out of you (and I'm lucky to have paid them off; most kids who don't go to biglaw never do, these days).
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Definitely true at public Unis, but not for the reasons that you might expect. The UC's for example, give admission tips to low income kids (a good thing). But most of those kids have to work during school to help pay the bills and send money home. As a result, they easily fall into the 5+ year plan. OTPH, kids from middle/upper income families, particularly coming in with AP/IB credits, can easily graduate in 4 years, or earlier if they so choose.While students should graduate in four years, most do not.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
For anyone in biglaw, I always tell them to consider going in-house to a large public company that pays well and has good benefits and a compatable corporate culture (i.e. actual work/life balance). That is what I did.Toadie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:35 am+1. If I had it all to do over again, I'd probably have skipped law school and become a plumber. I'm pretty confident I'd be in a roughly equivalent place now, economically--10 years of paying off student loans really takes it out of you (and I'm lucky to have paid them off; most kids who don't go to biglaw never do, these days).stoptothink wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:50 amExcept that isn't the case, how many public school teachers make $150k+/yr? My step-father has been teaching in public schools for over 20yrs, he doesn't even make 50% more than the average manager of a Del Taco (~$51k/yr, with benefits). I know this is Lake Wobegon where everybody's kids are choosing between HYPMS, but there is a significant segment of the population who will struggle mightily to get through college, and likely would not benefit even if they did complete a degree. My sister has a learning disability, was already held back a grade and has almost no chance of graduating high school at this point; her counselor should be reprimanded for constantly drilling into her head that college is the only way (and her public school teaching father agrees completely).h82goslw wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:38 am @stoptothink…….If this was a discussion I was having with my kid I’d make the point that in 20 years the teacher will be making three times what the fast food worker is making, not even counting the benefits a teaching position garners. Any counselor worth their salt would easily make those points.
Looking at the composition of the legal department of my megacorp, everyone is pretty much either coming from in-house at another megacorp, biglaw, or from a law regional law firm that does work for us. My megacorp's law department only hires experienced lawyers, so where you went to undergrad or even law school means little if anything.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
All valid points. I should’ve qualified my response….I live in the northeast where teachers who have 20 years experience are routinely making well over $100K per year. And definitely agree that not all folks are cut out for college.stoptothink wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:50 amExcept that isn't the case, how many public school teachers make $150k+/yr? My step-father has been teaching in public schools for over 20yrs, he doesn't even make 50% more than the average manager of a Del Taco (~$51k/yr, with benefits). I know this is Lake Wobegon where everybody's kids are choosing between HYPMS, but there is a significant segment of the population who will struggle mightily to get through college, and likely would not benefit even if they did complete a degree. My sister has a learning disability, was already held back a grade and has almost no chance of graduating high school at this point; her counselor should be reprimanded for constantly drilling into her head that college is the only way (and her public school teaching father agrees completely).h82goslw wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:38 am @stoptothink…….If this was a discussion I was having with my kid I’d make the point that in 20 years the teacher will be making three times what the fast food worker is making, not even counting the benefits a teaching position garners. Any counselor worth their salt would easily make those points.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
I’m from California, and feel I got the best deal of my life from my education at SDSU. The perfect education in English, Japanese language and linguistics, which I use every day in my career of choice 30 years later. My per-semester tuition at the time was…$444 a semester. And yet, the teachers were all great, the education was great, and I wouldn’t change it for anything.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
1) It's *quite* actionable. College is VERY expensive. Deciding if (more expensive) college A is worth it compared to (less expensive) college B is super-actionable. No, the answers won't be crystal clear, but neither are they crystal clear for a huge portion of what's discussed on this forum, both more direct investing stuff (international - yeah or nay? should I value-tilt, etc.), and for the more personal finance stuff (houses, cars, and yes, college/education).
2) Feel free to not look at the thread if it doesn't interest you.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
$444/semester (not per credit?) in the early 90s?!? I can't believe it!peterinjapan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:55 am I’m from California, and feel I got the best deal of my life from my education at SDSU. The perfect education in English, Japanese language and linguistics, which I use every day in my career of choice 30 years later. My per-semester tuition at the time was…$444 a semester. And yet, the teachers were all great, the education was great, and I wouldn’t change it for anything.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
I think plumbing is a great trade and I enjoy watching them do their work on gas lines or a boiler. However, it's not an easy job and it's hard on your body. I recently got a new hot water heater replacement (instead of separate gas heater, I now have a storage tank off my boiler). Both plumbers (one in his mid 20s and the other in early 30s) have physical issues as a result of the job such as bad knees. Maybe if you work smart, you'll take better care of your body. Or you do the grunt work for 10-15 years and then switch to managerial type responsibilities.Toadie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:35 am +1. If I had it all to do over again, I'd probably have skipped law school and become a plumber. I'm pretty confident I'd be in a roughly equivalent place now, economically--10 years of paying off student loans really takes it out of you (and I'm lucky to have paid them off; most kids who don't go to biglaw never do, these days).
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
I have to comment that your Bogleheads name seems appropriate. May your children Live Long and Prosper.Vulcan wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:24 pmAgreed. Those two are outliers in many ways.rwcox123 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:44 pmI went to Caltech (when it wasn't so pricy, in the 1970s). The undergraduate education is nearly unique in America, perhaps only MIT compares.Vulcan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:13 pm The few top universities that are arguably worth their price are not ones whose typical student can benefit from community college offerings, and their admissions are significantly more selective than UC (as evidenced by average test scores; e.g. 25%-75% ACT UCLA 29-35; Caltech 35-36).
It is "drink from the firehose" for science and engineering, working from basic principles on up. For the right kid, it is the right place to go - the kid with a thirst for technical knowledge and ability, to learn how to think about these things. It was a joke among us that the "losers" dropped out to go to Stanford or other down-market schools.
But I mean it when I say the right kid. Otherwise, going to Caltech would be an expensive mistake. And yes, it is hard to get into.
And the friendly rivalry between the them is hilarious.
Take this mug Caltech students distributed to MIT prefrosh, for example.
Our elder was accepted to both, and even though he chose MIT for a variety of reasons (they, too, pride themselves on their fire hose approach, and DS is loving it there), we sorta know that Caltech is the one that is really hardcore.
...Well, maybe for grad school. Plus he has a similarly-minded younger brother - may he be as lucky with admissions...
On topic, I agree with the gist of the thread. In spouse and my immediate family we have successful adults from a variety of schools.
[personal details removed after OP had chance to read]
Good luck.
Last edited by BogleFan510 on Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Yes, Cal State tuition went up quite a bit since then. It is around 3K per semester nowadays. Sill quite inexpensive compared to the alternatives.tj wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:11 pm$444/semester (not per credit?) in the early 90s?!? I can't believe it!peterinjapan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:55 am I’m from California, and feel I got the best deal of my life from my education at SDSU. The perfect education in English, Japanese language and linguistics, which I use every day in my career of choice 30 years later. My per-semester tuition at the time was…$444 a semester. And yet, the teachers were all great, the education was great, and I wouldn’t change it for anything.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
I think it depends on the eventual career field. I graduated from two different Ivy League schools in two different fields, and to be honest, while I loved it, I think it only makes a difference for very specific career paths. If you want to break into consulting, or finance, or law, there are still many places where having Harvard on your resume will count for something.
The teaching isn't necessarily better. If anything, I think top schools often emphasize research so much that their academics are usually below-average teachers.
Whether the connections will work out depends on luck and how social your kid is. I did end up knowing a fair number of people who are pretty big shots now, but it's not like I can call them up and ask for a better job and three times my current pay just because he remembers my face. Networking is something you have to sustain for quite a while - you have to make and then keep the connection, so I think even that element is often over-rated.
Have you asked your child? What does your child want/think?
The teaching isn't necessarily better. If anything, I think top schools often emphasize research so much that their academics are usually below-average teachers.
Whether the connections will work out depends on luck and how social your kid is. I did end up knowing a fair number of people who are pretty big shots now, but it's not like I can call them up and ask for a better job and three times my current pay just because he remembers my face. Networking is something you have to sustain for quite a while - you have to make and then keep the connection, so I think even that element is often over-rated.
Have you asked your child? What does your child want/think?
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Thank you, BogleFan510!BogleFan510 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:37 pm I have to comment that your Bogleheads name seems appropriate. May your children Live Long and Prosper.
LLAP!
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Yup, they are public schools. But Cal Poly schools (especially, San Luis Obispo) are ranked better than other Cal State universities in engineering and science programs.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Cal Poly SLO is focused on engineering. If students decide they want a different major after enrolling, they need to transfer to a different school. I knew parents who went through this with their child.wander wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:07 pmYup, they are public schools. But Cal Poly schools (especially, San Luis Obispo) are ranked better than other Cal State universities in engineering and science programs.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
Yes, CP-SLO has a large engineering program, but it also has a business program, a large Ag Sciences program, Biology (separate from Ag Sci), Education, architecture major, and a few others. Where SLO has smaller departments is Humanities (English, History, Philosophy...)RetiredCSProf wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:05 pmCal Poly SLO is focused on engineering. If students decide they want a different major after enrolling, they need to transfer to a different school. I knew parents who went through this with their child.wander wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:07 pmYup, they are public schools. But Cal Poly schools (especially, San Luis Obispo) are ranked better than other Cal State universities in engineering and science programs.
Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
This is a good point. But actually, this is probably a problem at almost any UC or Cal State school if a student wants to change majors to another impacted major (typically STEM or business would fall in this category). If that's the case, the student would have to cross their fingers and hope they had room to switch majors; otherwise they'd have to transfer to another school.RetiredCSProf wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:05 pmCal Poly SLO is focused on engineering. If students decide they want a different major after enrolling, they need to transfer to a different school. I knew parents who went through this with their child.
Going back to the OP's original question, this is possibly one of the most valuable benefits of a private school over a state school that hasn't been raised yet - the ability to change majors without having to transfer out of the school.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
"Worth it" implies that a private university will cost more than a state university. This may or may not be true. You cannot know until you are accepted and receive a financial aid package. It's pointless to argue this in the abstract.
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Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?
This really depends on the public and private in question. Many publics have more options than many privates. Possibly even most (especially considering the large number of small privates).Tirebiter wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:32 pmThis is a good point. But actually, this is probably a problem at almost any UC or Cal State school if a student wants to change majors to another impacted major (typically STEM or business would fall in this category). If that's the case, the student would have to cross their fingers and hope they had room to switch majors; otherwise they'd have to transfer to another school.RetiredCSProf wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:05 pmCal Poly SLO is focused on engineering. If students decide they want a different major after enrolling, they need to transfer to a different school. I knew parents who went through this with their child.
Going back to the OP's original question, this is possibly one of the most valuable benefits of a private school over a state school that hasn't been raised yet - the ability to change majors without having to transfer out of the school.