Gifting from joint account

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Jonezez
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Gifting from joint account

Post by Jonezez »

BHs:

I have a joint account with my brother and want to gift mutual fund assets to my mother but stay under the annual IRS limit so that we don’t have to file a gift tax return/form.

Is the annual limit (2021) $30k to account for my brother and me as joint account holders or is the limit $60k if we include our spouses (even though they aren’t account holders)?

2nd question: the account is roughly 60/40 stock/bond split into 7 mutual funds and 1 etf, all at vanguard, all vanguard funds.
Any specific strategy regarding choosing which funds to transfer in-kind? (Large cap vs muni bond fund vs international vs small cap).

The goal is to eventually transfer as much of the portfolio as
Possible, high 6 figures

Thank you!
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RickBoglehead
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by RickBoglehead »

Your spouses don't own any of the assets, so they cannot gift them. IANAL and don't know if community property states are different.

It's a form. No tax is due.
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Topic Author
Jonezez
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Jonezez »

RickBoglehead wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:37 pm Your spouses don't own any of the assets, so they cannot gift them. IANAL and don't know if community property states are different.

It's a form. No tax is due.
Thank you… had to look up IANAL haha.
Joey Jo Jo Jr
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Joey Jo Jo Jr »

Non-spousal joint accounts during life are typically owned to the extent each owner contributed to the account. So if that is true as to your account and you and your brother each contributed $15k that remains in the account you could each gift $15k to mom without needing to file a gift tax return, assuming no other gifts to mom during the year. However, it would be cleaner to gift from a solely owned account if you are willing to distribute your respective funds from the joint account first.

Your spouses could also gift their separate money, no more than $15k each per year, without needing to file a gift tax return. However, if you or your brother contributed funds on behalf of a spouse then the relevant couple would have to file the form 709 and choose gift splitting to stay under the annual exclusion limit.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by mptfan »

Joey Jo Jo Jr wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:53 pm Non-spousal joint accounts during life are typically owned to the extent each owner contributed to the account.
I don't agree with this, I think joint accounts are typically owned jointly and entirely by both parties regardless of how much was contributed by each.
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Jonezez
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Jonezez »

Joey Jo Jo Jr wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:53 pm Non-spousal joint accounts during life are typically owned to the extent each owner contributed to the account. So if that is true as to your account and you and your brother each contributed $15k that remains in the account you could each gift $15k to mom without needing to file a gift tax return, assuming no other gifts to mom during the year. However, it would be cleaner to gift from a solely owned account if you are willing to distribute your respective funds from the joint account first.

Your spouses could also gift their separate money, no more than $15k each per year, without needing to file a gift tax return. However, if you or your brother contributed funds on behalf of a spouse then the relevant couple would have to file the form 709 and choose gift splitting to stay under the annual exclusion limit.
.

This is more complex than I thought initially. Thanks for your response
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:16 pm
Joey Jo Jo Jr wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:53 pm Non-spousal joint accounts during life are typically owned to the extent each owner contributed to the account.
I don't agree with this, I think joint accounts are typically owned jointly and entirely by both parties regardless of how much was contributed by each.
That is correct. Each joint tenant is entitled to 1/n of the tenancy.
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Jonezez
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Jonezez »

mptfan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:16 pm
Joey Jo Jo Jr wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:53 pm Non-spousal joint accounts during life are typically owned to the extent each owner contributed to the account.
I don't agree with this, I think joint accounts are typically owned jointly and entirely by both parties regardless of how much was contributed by each.
Hmmmm… glad I posted here. The collective wisdom of crowds!
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:24 pm
mptfan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:16 pm
Joey Jo Jo Jr wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:53 pm Non-spousal joint accounts during life are typically owned to the extent each owner contributed to the account.
I don't agree with this, I think joint accounts are typically owned jointly and entirely by both parties regardless of how much was contributed by each.
That is correct. Each joint tenant is entitled to 1/n of the tenancy.
I'm not sure what you mean by "1/n of the tenancy." In a joint account both joint account holders own ALL of the joint account while they are both alive, regardless of how much was contributed by each. So if I open a joint account with my daughter and I contribute $10,000 and she contributes nothing, she would jointly own 100% of the $10,000 and could withdraw all of it at any time without my permission or knowledge.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:35 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:24 pm
mptfan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:16 pm
Joey Jo Jo Jr wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:53 pm Non-spousal joint accounts during life are typically owned to the extent each owner contributed to the account.
I don't agree with this, I think joint accounts are typically owned jointly and entirely by both parties regardless of how much was contributed by each.
That is correct. Each joint tenant is entitled to 1/n of the tenancy.
I'm not sure what you mean by "1/n of the tenancy." In a joint account both joint account holders own ALL of the joint account while they are both alive, regardless of how much was contributed by each. So if I open a joint account with my daughter and I contribute $10,000 and she contributes nothing, she would jointly own 100% of the $10,000 and could withdraw all of it at any time without my permission or knowledge.
You can have an infinite number of joint tenants, but there is a practical limit. N is number of tenants.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:38 pm You can have an infinite number of joint tenants, but there is a practical limit. N is number of tenants.
So let's assume there are two people on a joint account for simplicity...your statement is that each joint tenant is entitled to 1/2 of the account is wrong because each tenant is entitled to 1/1 of the account, i.e. 100%.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:41 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:38 pm You can have an infinite number of joint tenants, but there is a practical limit. N is number of tenants.
So let's assume there are two people on a joint account for simplicity...your statement is that each joint tenant is entitled to 1/2 of the account is wrong because each tenant is entitled to 1/1 of the account, i.e. 100%.
Two tenants, 1/n = 1/2. I'm confused as to what is confusing about high school algebra.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Gill »

mptfan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:41 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:38 pm You can have an infinite number of joint tenants, but there is a practical limit. N is number of tenants.
So let's assume there are two people on a joint account for simplicity...your statement is that each joint tenant is entitled to 1/2 of the account is wrong because each tenant is entitled to 1/1 of the account, i.e. 100%.
I agree. Lee is describing tenants in common, not joint tenants WROS.
Gill
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:11 pm
mptfan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:41 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:38 pm You can have an infinite number of joint tenants, but there is a practical limit. N is number of tenants.
So let's assume there are two people on a joint account for simplicity...your statement is that each joint tenant is entitled to 1/2 of the account is wrong because each tenant is entitled to 1/1 of the account, i.e. 100%.
Two tenants, 1/n = 1/2. I'm confused as to what is confusing about high school algebra.
It's not the algebra that confusing, you are confused, you misunderstand the ownership structure of joint accounts.
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:04 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:11 pm
mptfan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:41 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:38 pm You can have an infinite number of joint tenants, but there is a practical limit. N is number of tenants.
So let's assume there are two people on a joint account for simplicity...your statement is that each joint tenant is entitled to 1/2 of the account is wrong because each tenant is entitled to 1/1 of the account, i.e. 100%.
Two tenants, 1/n = 1/2. I'm confused as to what is confusing about high school algebra.
It's not the algebra that confusing, you are confused, you misunderstand the ownership structure of joint accounts.
How so? I said they're entitled to 1/n of the tenancy. Furthermore, I even agreed with you.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Joey Jo Jo Jr »

mptfan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:16 pm
Joey Jo Jo Jr wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:53 pm Non-spousal joint accounts during life are typically owned to the extent each owner contributed to the account.
I don't agree with this, I think joint accounts are typically owned jointly and entirely by both parties regardless of how much was contributed by each.
Although either joint account holder may WITHDRAW 100%, that doesn’t mean that each account holder OWNS 100%. It is ownership that matters for gift tax purposes. So if two brothers set up a joint account with $30k but only one contributes the funds, they may end up sadly mistaken if they think they can each donate $15k within the annual gift tax exclusion just by donating the joint fund. Might work if brother A gifted $15k to brother B in a separate account and then both gift $15k each to mom, but that might also fall under the step transaction doctrine. Ultimately, this is one of those scenarios where I say, why don’t you two [disrespectful comment removed by moderator oldcomputerguy] quit coming up with questionable scenarios and just gift $15k of your own money?
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Lee_WSP »

It may be easier to think of it in terms of owning shares in a company. Each tenant owns 1/n shares and has 100% control over the company.

Now, replace company with tenancy and that's how joint tenancy works. Honestly Wikipedia has good articles on some of these more basic legal concepts. The actual legal ownership is slightly different, but I don't recall anyone asking about that.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by NewMoneyMustBeSmart »

Jonezez wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:24 pm
Joey Jo Jo Jr wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:53 pm Non-spousal joint accounts during life are typically owned to the extent each owner contributed to the account. So if that is true as to your account and you and your brother each contributed $15k that remains in the account you could each gift $15k to mom without needing to file a gift tax return, assuming no other gifts to mom during the year. However, it would be cleaner to gift from a solely owned account if you are willing to distribute your respective funds from the joint account first.

Your spouses could also gift their separate money, no more than $15k each per year, without needing to file a gift tax return. However, if you or your brother contributed funds on behalf of a spouse then the relevant couple would have to file the form 709 and choose gift splitting to stay under the annual exclusion limit.
.

This is more complex than I thought initially. Thanks for your response
If I were you, here's what I'd do:

Open or use a joint brokerage account with spouse.
Transfer from the brother account to the spousal account.
Gift from the spousal account (probably with stock not cash)
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:17 pm How so? I said they're entitled to 1/n of the tenancy. Furthermore, I even agreed with you.
Because they are entitled to 1/1 of the tenancy, not just 1/n.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:17 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:17 pm How so? I said they're entitled to 1/n of the tenancy. Furthermore, I even agreed with you.
Because they are entitled to 1/1 of the tenancy, not just 1/n.
They each have an undivided interest in the property, which is not the tenancy.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:18 pm
mptfan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:17 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:17 pm How so? I said they're entitled to 1/n of the tenancy. Furthermore, I even agreed with you.
Because they are entitled to 1/1 of the tenancy, not just 1/n.
They each have an undivided interest in the property, which is not the tenancy.
That is a distinction of which I am unaware. Do you have a citation?
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:20 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:18 pm
mptfan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:17 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:17 pm How so? I said they're entitled to 1/n of the tenancy. Furthermore, I even agreed with you.
Because they are entitled to 1/1 of the tenancy, not just 1/n.
They each have an undivided interest in the property, which is not the tenancy.
That is a distinction of which I am unaware. Do you have a citation?
Tenancy is just the term for the ownership rights.

In the case of the joint tenancy, the rights are undivided, but there are still n tenants. Thus you are 1 of n tenants.

Edit
It basically means the group of tenants
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by FIREchief »

Gill wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:39 pm
mptfan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:41 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:38 pm You can have an infinite number of joint tenants, but there is a practical limit. N is number of tenants.
So let's assume there are two people on a joint account for simplicity...your statement is that each joint tenant is entitled to 1/2 of the account is wrong because each tenant is entitled to 1/1 of the account, i.e. 100%.
I agree. Lee is describing tenants in common, not joint tenants WROS.
Gill
Thank you Gill. I can't believe that he is still debating this.
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Lee_WSP »

FIREchief wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:08 am
Gill wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:39 pm
mptfan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:41 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:38 pm You can have an infinite number of joint tenants, but there is a practical limit. N is number of tenants.
So let's assume there are two people on a joint account for simplicity...your statement is that each joint tenant is entitled to 1/2 of the account is wrong because each tenant is entitled to 1/1 of the account, i.e. 100%.
I agree. Lee is describing tenants in common, not joint tenants WROS.
Gill
Thank you Gill. I can't believe that he is still debating this.
Tenancy is a term

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/joint_tenancy
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/tenancy_by_the_entirety

How else do you refer to one’s share of a joint tenancy? It is not indivisible, it is just undivided.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Lee_WSP »

Jonezez wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:28 pm

Is the annual limit (2021) $30k to account for my brother and me as joint account holders or is the limit $60k if we include our spouses (even though they aren’t account holders)?
I don't think anyone actually answered your question.

The IRS does not allow non spouses to split gifts.

The current exemption is $15,000 per person, per person. So, you may gift 15k, your brother may gift 15k. Joint tenants of a bank account are typically allowed by the bank to withdraw/transfer funds unilaterally. Creating two separate transactions given the above would be wise. Once the funds leave the joint account, they are no longer joint property as the four unities ended.

Bank accounts are an odd form of joint property because the banks typically allow either joint owner to withdraw/close the account unilaterally. You are not able to unilaterally sell an entire real property, but you are able to unilaterally convey your share of the property or the tenancy as I've referred to it, thereby breaking the four unities. Many/Most (not sure on the current state of this) states also allow the unilateral transformation of joint tenancy into tenants in common.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_unities
In case you wanted to know what the four unities are.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by JoeRetire »

Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:24 pm
mptfan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:16 pm
Joey Jo Jo Jr wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:53 pm Non-spousal joint accounts during life are typically owned to the extent each owner contributed to the account.
I don't agree with this, I think joint accounts are typically owned jointly and entirely by both parties regardless of how much was contributed by each.
That is correct. Each joint tenant is entitled to 1/n of the tenancy.
All parties in a joint account are entitled to 100% of the account.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/j/jointaccount.asp

"Joint accounts can cause problems, however, because they generally provide all parties unlimited access to the funds. Thus, if one spouse has difficulty controlling their spending habits, this may affect the other spouse, who may be more frugal. The frugal spouse cannot challenge the withdrawals or transactions of the other spouse with the bank because they are listed as a joint account holder."

For the OP: You and your brother could each withdraw as much money as you choose from this joint account and put it in your own personal accounts. Then your spouses could gift money from their personal accounts. The limits have nothing to do with which account holds the money.

My question would be why you have a joint account with your brother in the first place?
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Lee_WSP »

JoeRetire wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:22 am
Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:24 pm
mptfan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:16 pm
Joey Jo Jo Jr wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:53 pm Non-spousal joint accounts during life are typically owned to the extent each owner contributed to the account.
I don't agree with this, I think joint accounts are typically owned jointly and entirely by both parties regardless of how much was contributed by each.
That is correct. Each joint tenant is entitled to 1/n of the tenancy.
All parties in a joint account are entitled to 100% of the account.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/j/jointaccount.asp

"Joint accounts can cause problems, however, because they generally provide all parties unlimited access to the funds. Thus, if one spouse has difficulty controlling their spending habits, this may affect the other spouse, who may be more frugal. The frugal spouse cannot challenge the withdrawals or transactions of the other spouse with the bank because they are listed as a joint account holder."

For the OP: You and your brother could each withdraw as much money as you choose from this joint account and put it in your own personal accounts. Then your spouses could gift money from their personal accounts. The limits have nothing to do with which account holds the money.

My question would be why you have a joint account with your brother in the first place?
Unlimited access is not ownership. But I didn't say ownership, I said tenancy. They have 1/n of the joint tenancy.

While your choice of investopedia for a legal question is strikingly bad, at least they didn't completely butcher it.
Joint Tenants option: Selecting this option mandates a 50/50 split of the assets in the joint account.

A joint account is a bank or brokerage account shared between two or more individuals.
Joint tenants share ownership. You cannot each own 100% of something, that add ups to 200%. You each own/are entitled to 1/n of the account.
Last edited by Lee_WSP on Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Lee_WSP »

Gill wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:39 pm
mptfan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:41 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:38 pm You can have an infinite number of joint tenants, but there is a practical limit. N is number of tenants.
So let's assume there are two people on a joint account for simplicity...your statement is that each joint tenant is entitled to 1/2 of the account is wrong because each tenant is entitled to 1/1 of the account, i.e. 100%.
I agree. Lee is describing tenants in common, not joint tenants WROS.
Gill
Tenants in common are able to own unequal shares, joint tenants must have equal rights.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Mike Scott »

See links for more information on "gift tax". You can probably just make a single gift and file the form rather than drag it out.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Gift_tax
viewtopic.php?t=273252
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Lee_WSP »

Several commentators seem to be under the mistaken belief that the right to withdraw 100% of the funds is the same as ownership. If this were true, OP or OP's brother and divorcing spouses have the ability to empty joint accounts with impunity. This is obviously not true. The joint tenants are only entitled to 1/n of the funds in the account, but the bank rules usually allow them to withdraw 100% of the funds in the account.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:24 am You cannot each own 100% of something, that add ups to 200%. You each own/are entitled to 1/n of the account.
You are wrong. You CAN each own 100% of something, and it does not add up to 200%, and you are each entitled to 1/1 of the account, not 1/n. So in the case of two people having a joint account, they each own 100% of the account, thus they are "joint" owners.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:34 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:24 am Joint tenants share ownership. You cannot each own 100% of something, that add ups to 200%. You each own/are entitled to 1/n of the account.
You are wrong. You CAN each own 100% of something, and it does not add up to 200%, and you are each entitled to 1/1 of the account, not 1/n.
So you agree that if your spouse empties the joint account and divorces you, he/she is entitled to her ill begotten spoils?
Last edited by Lee_WSP on Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:59 am Several commentators seem to be under the mistaken belief that the right to withdraw 100% of the funds is the same as ownership. If this were true, OP or OP's brother and divorcing spouses have the ability to empty joint accounts with impunity. This is obviously not true.
This IS true. Joint owners of a joint account do have the ability to empty joint accounts with impunity.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:36 pm
mptfan wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:34 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:24 am Joint tenants share ownership. You cannot each own 100% of something, that add ups to 200%. You each own/are entitled to 1/n of the account.
You are wrong. You CAN each own 100% of something, and it does not add up to 200%, and you are each entitled to 1/1 of the account, not 1/n.
So you agree that if your spouse empties the joint account and divorces you, she is entitled to her ill begotten spoils?
I do not accept the premise of your question... you are assuming that there are "ill begotten spoils" and I don't agree. I agree that if I have a joint account with someone, including my spouse, and he or she empties the joint account that he or she is entitled to do so.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:38 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:36 pm
mptfan wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:34 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:24 am Joint tenants share ownership. You cannot each own 100% of something, that add ups to 200%. You each own/are entitled to 1/n of the account.
You are wrong. You CAN each own 100% of something, and it does not add up to 200%, and you are each entitled to 1/1 of the account, not 1/n.
So you agree that if your spouse empties the joint account and divorces you, she is entitled to her ill begotten spoils?
I do not accept the premise of your question... you are assuming that there are "ill begotten spoils" and I don't agree. I agree that if I have a joint account with someone, including my spouse, and he or she empties the joint account that he or she is entitled to do so.
So she gets to keep the funds?

You can believe that, but you're wrong.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:39 pm So she gets to keep the funds?

You can believe that, but you're wrong.
Yes, she gets to keep the funds, and no, I am not wrong.

If I open a joint account with someone and I contribute funds to the joint account from my individual funds, the funds in the joint account become jointly owned from that moment forward and the joint account holder has EQUAL ownership and EQUAL rights to withdraw those funds, just as I do, and that is true even if I contribute 100% of the funds and the joint account holder contributes 0% of the funds.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:40 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:39 pm So she gets to keep the funds?

You can believe that, but you're wrong.
Yes, she gets to keep the funds, and no, I am not wrong.

If I open a joint account with someone and I contribute funds to the joint account from my individual funds, the funds in the joint account become jointly owned from that moment forward and the joint account holder has EQUAL rights to withdraw those funds, just as I do, and that is true even if I contribute 100% of the funds and the joint account holder contributes 0% of the funds. So from that point forward the joint account holder has equal rights to those funds, just as I do, and there is nothing "ill gotten" about it.
You're welcome to your own opinion, but I suggest googling it before continuing such belief.

As to your edited addition, the ability to withdraw is not ownership of the funds. The ability to withdraw is simply a mechanic the institution allows.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Gill »

Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:51 pm
mptfan wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:40 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:39 pm So she gets to keep the funds?

You can believe that, but you're wrong.
Yes, she gets to keep the funds, and no, I am not wrong.

If I open a joint account with someone and I contribute funds to the joint account from my individual funds, the funds in the joint account become jointly owned from that moment forward and the joint account holder has EQUAL rights to withdraw those funds, just as I do, and that is true even if I contribute 100% of the funds and the joint account holder contributes 0% of the funds. So from that point forward the joint account holder has equal rights to those funds, just as I do, and there is nothing "ill gotten" about it.
You're welcome to your own opinion, but I suggest googling it before continuing such belief.

As to your edited addition, the ability to withdraw is not ownership of the funds. The ability to withdraw is simply a mechanic the institution allows.
Counselor, do you do your legal research on Google? I played a round of golf since my last post and returned to you still arguing about joint tenancy. What does divorce have to do with this discussion? That is completely irrelevant. The point is, either joint tenant can dispose of the whole.
Gill
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Lee_WSP »

Gill wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:29 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:51 pm
mptfan wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:40 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:39 pm So she gets to keep the funds?

You can believe that, but you're wrong.
Yes, she gets to keep the funds, and no, I am not wrong.

If I open a joint account with someone and I contribute funds to the joint account from my individual funds, the funds in the joint account become jointly owned from that moment forward and the joint account holder has EQUAL rights to withdraw those funds, just as I do, and that is true even if I contribute 100% of the funds and the joint account holder contributes 0% of the funds. So from that point forward the joint account holder has equal rights to those funds, just as I do, and there is nothing "ill gotten" about it.
You're welcome to your own opinion, but I suggest googling it before continuing such belief.

As to your edited addition, the ability to withdraw is not ownership of the funds. The ability to withdraw is simply a mechanic the institution allows.
Counselor, do you do your legal research on Google? I played a round of golf since my last post and returned to you still arguing about joint tenancy. What does divorce have to do with this discussion? That is completely irrelevant. The point is, either joint tenant can dispose of the whole.
Gill
I've never disagreed that either tenant may withdraw the entirety of the account at most institutions.

Divorce is where all the case law is because it's extremely common for one spouse to drain the joint account for the above reason. It doesn't mean they get to keep it.

I'm assuming your point is that I've wasted my time and brainpower (agreed) trying to explain to him that the power to withdraw is not the same as outright ownership. But if you actually want some citations to cases, I can provide some.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:38 pm I'm assuming your point is that I've wasted my time and brainpower (agreed) trying to explain to him that the power to withdraw is not the same as outright ownership. But if you actually want some citations to cases, I can provide some.
No, his point is that you are wrong, and focusing on divorce has nothing to do with ownership of a joint account. Both joint owners have outright ownership of a joint account.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Gill »

mptfan wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:06 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:38 pm I'm assuming your point is that I've wasted my time and brainpower (agreed) trying to explain to him that the power to withdraw is not the same as outright ownership. But if you actually want some citations to cases, I can provide some.
No, his point is that you are wrong, and focusing on divorce has nothing to do with ownership of a joint account. Both joint owners have outright ownership of a joint account.
Thanks mptfan . Equitable distribution laws governing divorce are an entirely different matter. Furthermore, what does the practice of certain institutions have to do with this? Reminds me of the expression that if you don’t have the facts “dazzle them with your footwork”.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:06 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:38 pm I'm assuming your point is that I've wasted my time and brainpower (agreed) trying to explain to him that the power to withdraw is not the same as outright ownership. But if you actually want some citations to cases, I can provide some.
No, his point is that you are wrong, and focusing on divorce has nothing to do with ownership of a joint account. Both joint owners have outright ownership of a joint account.
First, you are not Gill, and if that is what he is saying, he is wrong.

Secondly, only in Wisconsin and any other odd state. Wisconsin gives each owner the presumed right to own the entire bank account by statute. Pretty much every other state gives each owner a percentage of the share.

Also I was wrong above regarding each joint owner of a bank account is entitled to an equal undivided share. In most statutes I've read so far, each owner is actually only entitled to a share of the contributions they put in.

CA is equal shares by statute and case law.

See Dooner v. Yuen D. Minn., 2017 && Minn Stat 524.6-201

Tex. Est. Code
§113.004 (Tex. Prob. Code Ann. § 436(5)

Tex. Est. Code §113.002 (Tex. Prob.
Code Ann. §436(7))

Bechem v. Reliant Energy Retail Servs.,
LLC, No. 14-13-00729-CV, 2014 Tex. App.
LEXIS August 5, 2014 (Tex. App.—
Houston [14th Dist.]

https://www.txfiduciarylitigator.com/fi ... -Paper.pdf

N.J.S.A. 17:16I-1, et seq
A joint account belongs, during the lifetime of all parties, to the parties in proportion to the net contributions by each to the sums on deposit. In the absence of proof of net contributions, the account belongs in equal shares to all parties having present right of withdrawal.
https://www.uniformlaws.org/HigherLogic ... 20attorney)%20designation%20or%20both.

I'm going to stop now. I think I've made my point.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by mptfan »

Florida law provides as follows with regard to the ownership of a joint account...

Where an asset is held jointly, there is a strong presumption of joint ownership and in the absence of strong evidence of contrary intent, the joint ownership will not be disturbed. Barlow v. Department of Health Rehabilitative Services, 512 So.2d 1069, 1070 (Fla. 1st DCA 1987); Constance v. Constance, 366 So.2d 804, 807 (Fla. 3d DCA), cert. denied, 376 So.2d 70 (Fla. 1979).

Further, when a joint bank account is established with the funds of one person, there is a presumption that a gift was made of the funds remaining in the account and again, only clear and convincing evidence to the contrary will rebut the presumption. Winterton v. Kaufmann, 504 So.2d 439, 442 (Fla. 3d DCA), rev. denied, 515 So.2d 231 (Fla. 1987).


So I will concede that the the ownership of funds in a joint account is a matter to be decided by state law and there is no single answer that applies uniformly in all 50 states.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:18 pm So I will concede that the the ownership of funds in a joint account is a matter to be decided by state law and there is no single answer that applies uniformly in all 50 states.
Agreed. I was shocked when I read Wisconsin's statute which specifically denies any recourse if a joint account holder makes off with the funds.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:24 pm Agreed. I was shocked when I read Wisconsin's statute which specifically denies any recourse if a joint account holder makes off with the funds.
Are you shocked to find that in Florida there is a presumption that contributions to a joint account are presumed to be a gift to the joint account owners, and one must have "clear and convincing evidence" to rebut the presumption?
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:25 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:24 pm Agreed. I was shocked when I read Wisconsin's statute which specifically denies any recourse if a joint account holder makes off with the funds.
Are you shocked to find that in Florida there is a presumption that contributions to a joint account are presumed to be a gift to the joint account owners, and one must have "clear and convincing evidence" to rebut the presumption?
No. I practice in a community property state. Presumption of gifts to the community are par for the course.

Edit
It is also consistent with my earlier agreement with you that the contributions are owned jointly. But apparently the uniform law doesn't like that. But that's a different discussion.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:31 pm No. I practice in a community property state. Presumption of gifts to the community are par for the course.
So if I would have said that both owners of a joint account are each "presumed" to jointly own 100% of the funds in the account, you would have agreed?
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by Gill »

My comments pertain to the common law concept of a joint tenancy WROS. Of course, some states have modified the common law rule by statute.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:31 pm Edit
It is also consistent with my earlier agreement with you that the contributions are owned jointly. But apparently the uniform law doesn't like that. But that's a different discussion.
You wrote this:

"Joint tenants share ownership. You cannot each own 100% of something, that add ups to 200%. You each own/are entitled to 1/n of the account."

I don't think that statement is consistent with agreeing that contributions to a joint account are owned jointly.
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Re: Gifting from joint account

Post by cchrissyy »

OP,
It is unusual for two siblings to have a joint account in the first place.

Did the money come from your parents?

Is the gift to your mother a scheme to get her to hold it a while and come back as your inheritance?

We have had questions about that kind of scheme here before. Search for it and learn why it's not a good idea
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