Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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Lee_WSP
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by Lee_WSP »

Determined wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:50 amHis will left a HS friend as executor and sole beneficiary, presumably so the kids didn’t have to deal with his things.
FIREchief wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:05 pm [
All I could find was a comment that a will was filed in Iowa and that the person they think was nominated executor has "legally accepted" the role. That is hardly the same as being told by the appropriate court in Nevada that a will had been formally filed in that jurisdiction and that a probate process has begun. Did I miss that?
I've quoted the relevant part.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:39 pm
Determined wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:50 amHis will left a HS friend as executor and sole beneficiary, presumably so the kids didn’t have to deal with his things.
FIREchief wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:05 pm [
All I could find was a comment that a will was filed in Iowa and that the person they think was nominated executor has "legally accepted" the role. That is hardly the same as being told by the appropriate court in Nevada that a will had been formally filed in that jurisdiction and that a probate process has begun. Did I miss that?
I've quoted the relevant part.
I guess I missed the part about the will be timely filed with the proper court in NV and this friend being formally appointed by the court as executor?
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

As DW is currently executor of her aunt's estate, I've found information on my own. Perhaps the OP can do the same, depending on the state and/or county has similar systems to Massachusetts, which I have no idea if they do or don't.

For our situation, messed up probates going back to the grandfather require probates be opened again. As a bystander in this, I can push buttons on my laptop just fine. With the county where probate was opened, I found files for the grandfather and that opened for the aunt. In the grandfather's file, I found an image of his will as filed. This had been some big mystery in the family for some reason. They could have gone to the courthouse and also found this information for free. If this were me, I'd search Iowa to see if there were a way to find the will. Start with the Ex's last name. With that, I found easily entire files with everything from the will, court acceptance of executor, list of interested persons, copy of the death certificate, rulings along the way, will challenge....interesting.

I would think that something like this and finding insurance info would be a huge part of everything needed.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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galawdawg wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:13 pm However, I fail to understand how the OP would seek enforcement of the legal rights of her minor child to inherit under Nevada law without consulting with legal counsel. None of the recommendations you have posted would protect the legal rights of the minor child.
Permit me to further explain the possibility that I was considering. Several of the OPs posts suggested that the person they think was nominated to serve as executor had not petitioned the courts for letters of appointment and was doing nothing. While IANAL, my understanding is that if a court is made aware of a death, and nobody submits a will or petitions for letters of appointment within a timeframe established by state law (e.g. 30 days), the court will appoint the public administrator to act a personal representative to administer the estate. Is that correct? If not, I would be interested in learning more about this. If it is, than based solely upon what we have been told, that may be a very real possibility in this situation. It's possible that the OP may not understand any of this, so that is why I have been presenting this apparently contrarian "argument." Also, in the absence of a will, NV law would provide guidance as to how the personal administrator should distribute estate assets, in which case there may be no practical need for the OP to pay for legal representation to protect their minor child's rights, as they would already be reasonably protected. Beyond that, the OP reported that the decedent hadn't worked in years, suffered from mental illness and had been known to cash out retirement accounts. This suggested to me (as I mentioned earlier) the very real chance that the decedent has no meaningful assets (which could also explain why the supposed executor had just walked away from the situations). In either of these two possibilities, I don't believe the following would be meaningful:
However, protection of her minor child's rights to inherit under Nevada law will require a consultation with legal counsel.
To answer your question, the OP's minor child is likely legally entitled to inherit regardless of contrary provisions in the decedent's will (as I mentioned earlier). Most, if not all, states do not legally permit a decedent to disinherit their minor child(ren). That includes Nevada.
Thanks! I asked a question and you taught me something I didn't know. That's the great thing about this forum. :beer

I forget the statistics, but I've read that over half of the people who die in this Country have essentially zero net worth. Nobody needs a lawyer to legally claim nothing.

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Last edited by FIREchief on Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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Determined wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:55 am
He did legally accept the role.
FIREchief wrote:
I guess I missed the part about the will be timely filed with the proper court in NV and this friend being formally appointed by the court as executor?
I've quoted the relevant post.

But even if he didn't formally accept, the children are purportedly disinherited. The executor is hostile. You either lawyer up or go away.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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FIREchief wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:59 pm
galawdawg wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:13 pm However, I fail to understand how the OP would seek enforcement of the legal rights of her minor child to inherit under Nevada law without consulting with legal counsel. None of the recommendations you have posted would protect the legal rights of the minor child.
Permit me to further explain the possibility that I was considering. Several of the OPs posts suggested that the person they think was nominated to serve as executor had not petitioned the courts for letters of appointment and was doing nothing. While IANAL, my understanding is that if a court is made aware of a death, and nobody submits a will or petitions for letters of appointment within a timeframe established by state law (e.g. 30 days), the court will appoint the public administrator to act a personal representative to administer the estate. Is that correct? If not, I would be interested in learning more about this. If it is, than based solely upon what we have been told, that may be a very real possibility in this situation. It's possible that the OP may not understand any of this, so that is why I have been presenting this apparently contrarian "argument." Also, in the absence of a will, NV law would provide guidance as to how the personal administrator should distribute estate assets, in which case there may be no practical need for the OP to pay for legal representation to protect their minor child's rights, as they would already be reasonably protected. Beyond that, the OP reported that the decedent hadn't worked in years, suffered from mental illness and had been known to cash out retirement accounts. This suggested to me (as I mentioned earlier) the very real chance that the decedent has no meaningful assets (which could also explain why the supposed executor had just walked away from the situations). In either of these two possibilities, I don't believe the following would be meaningful:
However, protection of her minor child's rights to inherit under Nevada law will require a consultation with legal counsel.
To answer your question, the OP's minor child is likely legally entitled to inherit regardless of contrary provisions in the decedent's will (as I mentioned earlier). Most, if not all, states do not legally permit a decedent to disinherit their minor child(ren). That includes Nevada.
Thanks! I asked a question and you taught me something I didn't know. That's the great thing about this forum. :beer

I forget the statistics, but I've read that over half of the people who die in this Country have essentially zero net worth. Nobody needs a lawyer to legally claim nothing.

Readers please see my signature.
Statute usually provides that the adult children or spouse shall serve as executor in the absence of a formal will or declination of service and no backup executor.

Either way, my comment is based on the disinheritance.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:01 pm
Determined wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:55 am
He did legally accept the role.
FIREchief wrote:
I guess I missed the part about the will be timely filed with the proper court in NV and this friend being formally appointed by the court as executor?
I've quoted the relevant post.
Yeah, I know. I read that. It sounded like second or third hand information and it isn't even proper language. It didn't say he petitioned the NV Court for letters of appointment which were issued on xx/xx/xxxx. I've met people that think that if a will nominates an executor than all they have to do is just divvy up everything. I actually know an elderly woman who believes that since she updated her will that the courts will not be involved in any way. You can't make this up. I don't think anybody has figured out the real facts in this situation, including the OP. I don't mean that as an insult, but there are a lot of gaps in this.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:04 pm Statute usually provides that the adult children or spouse shall serve as executor in the absence of a formal will or declination of service and no backup executor.
Does it not also provide that in the absence of a spouse (this situation) and adult children who wish to serve (this situation), that after several other possibilities (including creditors), the default is a public administrator? I really believe that there is a good chance that this estate amounts to nothing and therefore nobody in their right mind will want to serve as executor. Can you at least share a glimpse of that?
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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FIREchief wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:08 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:01 pm
Determined wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:55 am
He did legally accept the role.
FIREchief wrote:
I guess I missed the part about the will be timely filed with the proper court in NV and this friend being formally appointed by the court as executor?
I've quoted the relevant post.
Yeah, I know. I read that. It sounded like second or third hand information and it isn't even proper language. It didn't say he petitioned the NV Court for letters of appointment which were issued on xx/xx/xxxx. I've met people that think that if a will nominates an executor than all they have to do is just divvy up everything. I actually know an elderly woman who believes that since she updated her will that the courts will not be involved in any way. You can't make this up. I don't think anybody has figured out the real facts in this situation, including the OP. I don't mean that as an insult, but there are a lot of gaps in this.
Agreed, but when the executor and possessor of the will is being hostile, if you don't know what you're doing, you need to hire someone who does.
FIREchief wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:11 pm [quote=Lee_WSP post_id=6134236 time=<a href="tel:1627002296">1627002296</a> user_id=147765]
Statute usually provides that the adult children or spouse shall serve as executor in the absence of a formal will or declination of service and no backup executor.
Does it not also provide that in the absence of a spouse (this situation) and adult children who wish to serve (this situation), that after several other possibilities (including creditors), the default is a public administrator? I really believe that there is a good chance that this estate amounts to nothing and therefore nobody in their right mind will want to serve as executor. Can you at least share a glimpse of that?
[/quote]

Each state is different and it would be rather perverse to have to probate a will that disinherits you, but you don't have to accept either.

Eventually you get to a special master or public servant or appointed attorney or fiduciary.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:01 pm The executor is hostile.
Hostile? It sounded more to me like the person nominated as executor had no interest in even getting involved.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:14 pm Eventually you get to a special master or public servant or appointed attorney or fiduciary.
Bingo!! You're right there with me now! 8-)
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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Jack FFR1846 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:56 pm As DW is currently executor of her aunt's estate, I've found information on my own. Perhaps the OP can do the same, depending on the state and/or county has similar systems to Massachusetts, which I have no idea if they do or don't.

For our situation, messed up probates going back to the grandfather require probates be opened again. As a bystander in this, I can push buttons on my laptop just fine. With the county where probate was opened, I found files for the grandfather and that opened for the aunt. In the grandfather's file, I found an image of his will as filed. This had been some big mystery in the family for some reason. They could have gone to the courthouse and also found this information for free. If this were me, I'd search Iowa to see if there were a way to find the will. Start with the Ex's last name. With that, I found easily entire files with everything from the will, court acceptance of executor, list of interested persons, copy of the death certificate, rulings along the way, will challenge....interesting.

I would think that something like this and finding insurance info would be a huge part of everything needed.
Thanks JackFFR1846! It very helpful to have somebody who has actually done this provide their story. Fortunately, I haven't had to get personally involved in one of these (yet....). But it never hurts to do a little homework. :D
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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FIREchief wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:15 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:01 pm The executor is hostile.
Hostile? It sounded more to me like the person nominated as executor had no interest in even getting involved.
It's a lawyer ish term. The executor is adverse to the OPs children. As in their interests are opposed. The executor is also not answering questions, so hostile as a normal term seems appropriate.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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FIREchief wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:17 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:14 pm Eventually you get to a special master or public servant or appointed attorney or fiduciary.
Bingo!! You're right there with me now! 8-)
I don't understand what it has to do with potentially fighting a disinheritance though.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:27 pm
FIREchief wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:15 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:01 pm The executor is hostile.
Hostile? It sounded more to me like the person nominated as executor had no interest in even getting involved.
It's a lawyer ish term. The executor is adverse to the OPs children. As in their interests are opposed.
Yeah, I think most of us know that. We just haven't seen any claims of such adversity in this thread. Just claims of inaction and lack of interest. Those aren't the same things. I could be wrong, but I highly doubt this person has bothered to petition the courts for letters of appointment, and thus lacks any legal standing.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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FIREchief wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:32 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:27 pm
FIREchief wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:15 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:01 pm The executor is hostile.
Hostile? It sounded more to me like the person nominated as executor had no interest in even getting involved.
It's a lawyer ish term. The executor is adverse to the OPs children. As in their interests are opposed.
Yeah, I think most of us know that. We just haven't seen any claims of such adversity in this thread. Just claims of inaction and lack of interest. Those aren't the same things. I could be wrong, but I highly doubt this person has bothered to petition the courts for letters of appointment, and thus lacks any legal standing.
Executor is the beneficiary, therefore the adverse party.

Even if he hasn't. It doesn't change the belief of children being disinherited. Nor does it change my recommendation.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:29 pm
FIREchief wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:17 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:14 pm Eventually you get to a special master or public servant or appointed attorney or fiduciary.
Bingo!! You're right there with me now! 8-)
I don't understand what it has to do with potentially fighting a disinheritance though.
Well in the absence of any probate assets to inherit, is there any point in fighting an (alleged) disinheritance? The only possible asset we've been told about is possible life insurance of unknown (likely small if any) magnitude. Any disinheritance in the will would have nothing to do with that. Do you really think that they're going to uncover a pot of gold in this guys apartment? If, under public administrator oversight, they do; than I agree that now is the time to pay that lawyer! 8-) There, now I'm right there with you!
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:34 pm Executor is the beneficiary
Beneficiary of an apartment full of clutter? Good for him!
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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FIREchief wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:37 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:29 pm
FIREchief wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:17 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:14 pm Eventually you get to a special master or public servant or appointed attorney or fiduciary.
Bingo!! You're right there with me now! 8-)
I don't understand what it has to do with potentially fighting a disinheritance though.
Well in the absence of any probate assets to inherit, is there any point in fighting an (alleged) disinheritance? The only possible asset we've been told about is possible life insurance of unknown (likely small if any) magnitude. Any disinheritance in the will would have nothing to do with that. Do you really think that they're going to uncover a pot of gold in this guys apartment? If, under public administrator oversight, they do; than I agree that now is the time to pay that lawyer! 8-) There, now I'm right there with you!
I am not going to give OP any actual advice on course of action as that is bordering on legal advice and I'm not admitted in Nevada.

I've already said the two paths she can take.

But it is a cost benefit analysis. If she can find a commission based attorney, there's no upfront costs.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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FIREchief wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:38 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:34 pm Executor is the beneficiary
Beneficiary of an apartment full of clutter? Good for him!
You're missing the subtlety of my responses to OP. 8-)
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:40 pm
FIREchief wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:38 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:34 pm Executor is the beneficiary
Beneficiary of an apartment full of clutter? Good for him!
You're missing the subtlety of my responses to OP. 8-)
Perhaps not! :P
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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I spoke with my son who then texted the executor to ask what was going on this was the response. The good news is there is a plan. I’m highly irritated that my children have not been kept in the loop, and I am particularly upset that the sister now has his remains and the kids did not know. My guess is she paid the funeral home, but it was made clear early on that that the family would fo what my kids wanted since they are next of kin. The family does not speak to me although I am the one that let them know what happened because the kids did not want to make the call. I was notified by the coroner.

“Hi (my son) , I am flying out next Thursday to put the household items plus car in storage. The rest that I think nobody wants I'm going to dispose of. If there
is anything you want let me know and I can call you next week when I'm there. I will obviously keep anything I believe is family related but couches chairs
ect I will get rid of. (Dad’s) remains are with (their aunt). I have received the death certificates so things are moving along.”

I read all of the debate about getting representation. I’ll see if I can get some better information.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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Determined wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:17 am “Hi (my son) , I am flying out next Thursday to put the household items plus car in storage. The rest that I think nobody wants I'm going to dispose of. If there
is anything you want let me know and I can call you next week when I'm there. I will obviously keep anything I believe is family related but couches chairs
ect I will get rid of. (Dad’s) remains are with (their aunt). I have received the death certificates so things are moving along.”
Was there any confirmation that the will had been filed with the appropriate County court in NV and that the nominated executor had petitioned the court for (and received) letters of appointment?

Also, is (son) going to pay for moving and storage out of his own pocket? Does he realize that if/when he drives the car he and the car will likely be uninsured? Is he prepared to pay a landlord requested fees for vacating the apartment and any unpaid utilities (e.g. electricity) that reverted to the landlord if/when unpaid? What does he need copies of the death certificate for?
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by Luckywon »

FIREchief wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:40 am
Was there any confirmation that the will had been filed with the appropriate County court in NV and that the nominated executor had petitioned the court for (and received) letters of appointment?

Also, is (son) going to pay for moving and storage out of his own pocket? Does he realize that if/when he drives the car he and the car will likely be uninsured? Is he prepared to pay a landlord requested fees for vacating the apartment and any unpaid utilities (e.g. electricity) that reverted to the landlord if/when unpaid? What does he need copies of the death certificate for?
FIREchief, the thought does come to mind that if these great questions you raise have not been considered, part of the problem may be they are proceeding without proper legal counsel. :twisted:
Determined wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:17 am I read all of the debate about getting representation. I’ll see if I can get some better information.
I can think of at least 4 great reasons for the friend to decline to serve as executor. The fact he has not done so already is probably related to some combination of him not understanding what is entailed, not having spoken with an attorney, and not being very astute regarding how to handle this matter.

It is likely that ultimately you and your immediate family will be left to deal with your ex's estate and the very first step would be to consult with a probate lawyer in Nevada.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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Luckywon wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:30 am
FIREchief wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:40 am
Was there any confirmation that the will had been filed with the appropriate County court in NV and that the nominated executor had petitioned the court for (and received) letters of appointment?

Also, is (son) going to pay for moving and storage out of his own pocket? Does he realize that if/when he drives the car he and the car will likely be uninsured? Is he prepared to pay a landlord requested fees for vacating the apartment and any unpaid utilities (e.g. electricity) that reverted to the landlord if/when unpaid? What does he need copies of the death certificate for?
FIREchief, the thought does come to mind that if these great questions you raise have not been considered, part of the problem may be they are proceeding without proper legal counsel. :twisted:
Yeah but, while not paid legal advice, that stuff is all free here! :P See my signature.

But, let's play that game. If the OP had hired a lawyer (as several strongly recommended), would that lawyer be representing the son in his activities or would he need his own lawyer? In my (extremely limited) experience, lawyers like to be paid by each and every client that they are representing. Also, is that lawyer going to provide suggestions on whether or not to pay to move/store stuff (very expensive) that ultimately may require additional payments for somebody to haul to the landfill? I live in a metropolitan area somewhat similar to Vegas and it would cost about $500 a month to store a small bedroom's worth of stuff and a vehicle. It doesn't take long to hit that breakeven point where it would have been much cheaper (and easier) just to liquidate it all on the front end. I even sponsored a whole thread around that stuff. 8-)

Is that probate lawyer going to charge by the hour to call the county, call the landlord, call the electric company? Of course he will! :twisted:

That's the nice thing about an internet forum. Folks can ignore all the posts they want for no extra charge... PLEASE see my signature. :D
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

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Luckywon wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:30 am I can think of at least 4 great reasons for the friend to decline to serve as executor. The fact he has not done so already is probably related to some combination of him not understanding what is entailed, not having spoken with an attorney, and not being very astute regarding how to handle this matter.

It is likely that ultimately you and your immediate family will be left to deal with your ex's estate and the very first step would be to consult with a probate lawyer in Nevada.
Executor's who are beneficiaries typically serve as executors unless the estate is completely destitute in which case it becomes an issue of personal duty/loyalty/whatever.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by FIREchief »

Luckywon wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:30 am I can think of at least 4 great reasons for the friend to decline to serve as executor. The fact he has not done so already is probably related to some combination of him not understanding what is entailed, not having spoken with an attorney, and not being very astute regarding how to handle this matter.
Bingo!! I (we) could be totally wrong about this, but if I were a betting man this would be my play. 8-)
It is likely that ultimately you and your immediate family will be left to deal with your ex's estate and the very first step would be to consult with a probate lawyer in Nevada.
There is of course one other (better?) option. Just do nothing. Doing nothing is an ever present, yet rarely embraced option in situations such as this. As we've discussed in this thread, ultimately the courts will have to deal with it in some manner. If I were in the OP's situation (fortunately, I'm not, but you never know), I would just make certain to let the County circuit court clerk and landlord know that the decedent had surviving children and what their contact information is.

Why do you think that an ex-spouse would be in any position to probate an estate? Surviving child, sure. Ex? That one would surprise me.
Last edited by FIREchief on Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by Luckywon »

FIREchief wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:14 pm
But, let's play that game. If the OP had hired a lawyer (as several strongly recommended), would that lawyer be representing the son in his activities or would he need his own lawyer? In my (extremely limited) experience, lawyers like to be paid by each and every client that they are representing. Also, is that lawyer going to provide suggestions on whether or not to pay to move/store stuff (very expensive) that ultimately may require additional payments for somebody to haul to the landfill? I live in a metropolitan area somewhat similar to Vegas and it would cost about $500 a month to store a small bedroom's worth of stuff and a vehicle. It doesn't take long to hit that breakeven point where it would have been much cheaper (and easier) just to liquidate it all on the front end. I even sponsored a whole thread around that stuff. 8-)

Is that probate lawyer going to charge by the hour to call the county, call the landlord, call the electric company? Of course he will! :twisted:

That's the nice thing about an internet forum. Folks can ignore all the posts they want for no extra charge... PLEASE see my signature. :D
Ayyy I should have kept my mouth shut. :sharebeer

Well, speaking from my experience when we went through this, ultimately, the attorney represented the appointed personal representative but up until that point he was reasonably helpful and forthcoming in guiding as to the steps to be taken. I can easily imagine that most many attorneys interviewed would give helpful advice as to how to proceed including addressing most or all of the concerns you raised upstream regarding son's impending expedition to Vegas.
Last edited by Luckywon on Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by Luckywon »

FIREchief wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:27 pm
There is of course one other (better?) option. Just do nothing. Doing nothing is an ever present, yet rarely embraced option in situations such as this. As we've discussed in this thread, ultimately the courts will have to deal with it in some manner. If I were in the OP's situation (fortunately, I'm not but you never know), I would just make certain to let the County circuit court clerk and landlord know that the decedent had surviving children and what their contact information is.
You and I have different levels of interest about the potential bitcoin windfall. :moneybag :moneybag I don't see any way to flesh that out without being appointed executor and having the computer of the ex examined.
FIREchief wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:27 pm Why do you think that an ex-spouse would be in any position to probate an estate? Surviving child, sure. Ex? That one would surprise me.
Generally agree but I am considering that the ex-spouse's minor child may be the principal beneficiary. The adult surviving children are unlikely to be beneficiaries and OP has alluded to the possibility other issues may be in play. Frankly, I see less reason for them to be involved than the OP.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by FIREchief »

Luckywon wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:29 pm Ayyy I should have kept my mouth shut. :sharebeer
Nah. Where's the fun in that? :P
Well, speaking from my experience when we went through this, ultimately, the attorney represented the appointed personal representative but up until that point he was reasonably helpful and forthcoming in guiding as to the steps to be taken. I can easily imagine that most many attorneys interviewed would give helpful advice as to how to proceed including addressing most or all of the concerns you raised upstream regarding son's impending expedition to Vegas.
Don't get me wrong. I'm 100% behind receiving free advice from lawyers. It happens all the time right here on the forum (and we have some FAR above average lawyers helping us out). 8-) That said, I'm a Boglehead with a STEM background. I want to run the numbers, do the cost-benefit analysis, etc. anytime before I pull out my wallet. If the case is there, I have and will pay whatever is appropriate for a "good" lawyer's assistance. Of course, I've also had free initial consultations that I felt were worth far less than what I "paid." :twisted:

I will add that one of the best things about this forum is the mix of inputs. Sure, we have doctors/lawyers/accountants and folks with many different backgrounds (both career and academic). That gives us a wealth of opinions and experiences that no single person (paid lawyer or otherwise) is going to provide. If only the true experts (however we would determine that?) provided inputs, this would become a very boring and stagnant forum.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by Lee_WSP »

Sometimes the costs to obtain information exceeds the expected value of obtaining said information.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by FIREchief »

Luckywon wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:35 pm
FIREchief wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:27 pm Why do you think that an ex-spouse would be in any position to probate an estate? Surviving child, sure. Ex? That one would surprise me.
Generally agree but I am considering that the ex-spouse's minor child may be the principal beneficiary. The adult surviving children are unlikely to be beneficiaries and OP has alluded to the possibility other issues may be in play. Frankly, I see less reason for them to be involved than the OP.
That makes sense. I had forgotten that one of the children was a minor under custody of the OP. I was thinking that the adult children would be considered the top candidates by the Courts (in accordance with state law). I'm not sure where a parent of a minor child would fall into the mix. We were told that the supposed will did not name the minor as a beneficiary, but I now understand that state law may preclude that.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by FIREchief »

Luckywon wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:35 pm
FIREchief wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:27 pm
There is of course one other (better?) option. Just do nothing. Doing nothing is an ever present, yet rarely embraced option in situations such as this. As we've discussed in this thread, ultimately the courts will have to deal with it in some manner. If I were in the OP's situation (fortunately, I'm not but you never know), I would just make certain to let the County circuit court clerk and landlord know that the decedent had surviving children and what their contact information is.
You and I have different levels of interest about the potential bitcoin windfall. :moneybag :moneybag I don't see any way to flesh that out without being appointed executor and having the computer of the ex examined.
You are correct! I have a hard time believing that this person who hadn't worked in years and had cashed out retirement accounts would have been socking money away into BTC. If he wanted to gamble, doesn't he live in/near Vegas?? To Lee's point, paying to pursue this "information" may also be a big gamble with really crappy (Kino?) odds. There might be a better potential outcome by just placing the lawyer's fees on "red."
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by Luckywon »

Lee_WSP wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:50 pm Sometimes the costs to obtain information exceeds the expected value of obtaining said information.
FIREchief wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:54 pm To Lee's point, paying to pursue this "information" may also be a big gamble with really crappy (Kino?) odds. There might be a better potential outcome by just placing the lawyer's fees on "red."
I'll say this. I believe the expected value of spending a bit of money to flesh out any potential bitcoin or other unexpected assets in this case a much better bet than title insurance. :twisted:
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by Luckywon »

FIREchief wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:54 pm You are correct! I have a hard time believing that this person who hadn't worked in years and had cashed out retirement accounts would have been socking money away into BTC.
Even notwithstanding what OP said below? This seems like a strange story for the manager to make up.
Determined wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:03 am He actually worked for an insurance agency briefly two years ago. My son called the office snd found out that he took that retirement money out to put into Bitcoin last year. The office manager tried to talk him out of it.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by FIREchief »

Luckywon wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:56 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:50 pm Sometimes the costs to obtain information exceeds the expected value of obtaining said information.
FIREchief wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:54 pm To Lee's point, paying to pursue this "information" may also be a big gamble with really crappy (Kino?) odds. There might be a better potential outcome by just placing the lawyer's fees on "red."
I'll say this. I believe the expected value of spending a bit of money to flesh out any potential bitcoin or other unexpected assets in this case a much better bet than title insurance. :twisted:
For the win! :P :sharebeer
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by Luckywon »

FIREchief wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:40 pm Of course, I've also had free initial consultations that I felt were worth far less than what I "paid." :twisted:
This is the win right here :sharebeer :D :D Many of the most expensive things I've received were free!
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by Determined »

FIREchief wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:40 am
Determined wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:17 am “Hi (my son) , I am flying out next Thursday to put the household items plus car in storage. The rest that I think nobody wants I'm going to dispose of. If there
is anything you want let me know and I can call you next week when I'm there. I will obviously keep anything I believe is family related but couches chairs
ect I will get rid of. (Dad’s) remains are with (their aunt). I have received the death certificates so things are moving along.”

Was there any confirmation that the will had been filed with the appropriate County court in NV and that the nominated executor had petitioned the court for (and received) letters of appointment?

Also, is (son) going to pay for moving and storage out of his own pocket? Does he realize that if/when he drives the car he and the car will likely be uninsured? Is he prepared to pay a landlord requested fees for vacating the apartment and any unpaid utilities (e.g. electricity) that reverted to the landlord if/when unpaid? What does he need copies of the death certificate for?
My son is not doing anything. That is what the executor texted to him. The executor is financially responsible for everything.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by Determined »

FIREchief wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:54 pm
Luckywon wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:35 pm
FIREchief wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:27 pm
There is of course one other (better?) option. Just do nothing. Doing nothing is an ever present, yet rarely embraced option in situations such as this. As we've discussed in this thread, ultimately the courts will have to deal with it in some manner. If I were in the OP's situation (fortunately, I'm not but you never know), I would just make certain to let the County circuit court clerk and landlord know that the decedent had surviving children and what their contact information is.
You and I have different levels of interest about the potential bitcoin windfall. :moneybag :moneybag I don't see any way to flesh that out without being appointed executor and having the computer of the ex examined.
You are correct! I have a hard time believing that this person who hadn't worked in years and had cashed out retirement accounts would have been socking money away into BTC. If he wanted to gamble, doesn't he live in/near Vegas?? To Lee's point, paying to pursue this "information" may also be a big gamble with really crappy (Kino?) odds. There might be a better potential outcome by just placing the lawyer's fees on "red."
My ex’s preference was sports betting. I absolutely believe he was investing in Bitcoin. He talked about to my children and his sisters and texted me about weeks before his passing. He also had Borderline Personality Disorder. Risky and addictive behaviors are part of that.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by FIREchief »

Determined wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:34 pm
FIREchief wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:40 am
Determined wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:17 am “Hi (my son) , I am flying out next Thursday to put the household items plus car in storage. The rest that I think nobody wants I'm going to dispose of. If there
is anything you want let me know and I can call you next week when I'm there. I will obviously keep anything I believe is family related but couches chairs
ect I will get rid of. (Dad’s) remains are with (their aunt). I have received the death certificates so things are moving along.”

Was there any confirmation that the will had been filed with the appropriate County court in NV and that the nominated executor had petitioned the court for (and received) letters of appointment?

Also, is (son) going to pay for moving and storage out of his own pocket? Does he realize that if/when he drives the car he and the car will likely be uninsured? Is he prepared to pay a landlord requested fees for vacating the apartment and any unpaid utilities (e.g. electricity) that reverted to the landlord if/when unpaid? What does he need copies of the death certificate for?
My son is not doing anything. That is what the executor texted to him. The executor is financially responsible for everything.
I misunderstood. When you said "Hi" (my son), I thought you were indicating that the message was from your son. I believe that technically "The executor" is responsible for "everything" but the estate is responsible for any expenses. Please keep us posted. It will be interesting to hear if this guy is able to convince the landlord to let him vacate the apartment based upon (apparently) him having only a will from Iowa and a death certificate. :oops: If he does, he's not much of a landlord, but perhaps he'll do it if he thinks it will save him the effort/expense of clearing out an apartment.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by FIREchief »

Determined wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:47 pm My ex’s preference was sports betting. I absolutely believe he was investing in Bitcoin. He talked about to my children and his sisters and texted me about weeks before his passing. He also had Borderline Personality Disorder. Risky and addictive behaviors are part of that.
Yikes. That really doesn't sound like a buy and hold Boglehead. I hope your kids do receive some benefits from the estate, but I wouldn't "bet" any money on it at this point.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by Determined »

FIREchief wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:49 pm
Determined wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:34 pm
FIREchief wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:40 am
Determined wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:17 am “Hi (my son) , I am flying out next Thursday to put the household items plus car in storage. The rest that I think nobody wants I'm going to dispose of. If there
is anything you want let me know and I can call you next week when I'm there. I will obviously keep anything I believe is family related but couches chairs
ect I will get rid of. (Dad’s) remains are with (their aunt). I have received the death certificates so things are moving along.”

Was there any confirmation that the will had been filed with the appropriate County court in NV and that the nominated executor had petitioned the court for (and received) letters of appointment?

Also, is (son) going to pay for moving and storage out of his own pocket? Does he realize that if/when he drives the car he and the car will likely be uninsured? Is he prepared to pay a landlord requested fees for vacating the apartment and any unpaid utilities (e.g. electricity) that reverted to the landlord if/when unpaid? What does he need copies of the death certificate for?
My son is not doing anything. That is what the executor texted to him. The executor is financially responsible for everything.
I misunderstood. When you said "Hi" (my son), I thought you were indicating that the message was from your son. I believe that technically "The executor" is responsible for "everything" but the estate is responsible for any expenses. Please keep us posted. It will be interesting to hear if this guy is able to convince the landlord to let him vacate the apartment based upon (apparently) him having only a will from Iowa and a death certificate. :oops: If he does, he's not much of a landlord, but perhaps he'll do it if he thinks it will save him the effort/expense of clearing out an apartment.
Sorry about that. I was pasting the text and editing out the names. Yes, the estate is financially responsible.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by bsteiner »

If the decedent had any life insurance policies, there should be a bill or a statement at least once a year. The executor should arrange for the mail to be forwarded. The children, or one of them, or their mother, should ask the executor to let them know if any such bills or statements arrive, and if so, should contact the insurance company to let them know about the decedent's death.

The executor could also go through the decedent's bank records for the last few years to look for checks or electronic payments to insurance companies. (The executor should do this anyway to look for information as to assets, and for payments that are deductible for income tax purposes.)
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by Determined »

bsteiner wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:32 pm If the decedent had any life insurance policies, there should be a bill or a statement at least once a year. The executor should arrange for the mail to be forwarded. The children, or one of them, or their mother, should ask the executor to let them know if any such bills or statements arrive, and if so, should contact the insurance company to let them know about the decedent's death.

The executor could also go through the decedent's bank records for the last few years to look for checks or electronic payments to insurance companies. (The executor should do this anyway to look for information as to assets, and for payments that are deductible for income tax purposes.)
Now that we know the executor will be there next week, hopefully with all the proper legal authority, there will be some electronic and paper documents to help with the estate. I was executor for my mother, so I am aware of how to find things, particularly recurring credit card payments for subscriptions. However, I wasn’t shooting blindly when dealing with her things.
Last edited by Determined on Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by RedDog »

Your ex’s tax returns might have a 1099 from the life insurance company attached. There could also be actionable clues about other assets.

My elderly father’s tax returns were a Rosetta Stone when I had to figure out his finances.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by Determined »

RedDog wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:49 pm Your ex’s tax returns might have a 1099 from the life insurance company attached. There could also be actionable clues about other assets.

My elderly father’s tax returns were a Rosetta Stone when I had to figure out his finances.
Another mystery….whether he had been filing taxes.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by Luckywon »

Determined wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:41 pm
Now that we know the executor will be there next week, hopefully with all the proper legal authority, there will be some electronic and paper documents to help with the estate. I was executor for my mother, so I am aware of how to find things, particularly recurring credit card payments for subscriptions. However, I wasn’t shooting blindly when dealing with her things.
Have you broached with him the possibility that under Nevada law your minor child may be the beneficiary? He may be under the mistaken notion that he can legally act as executor and implement the terms of the out of state Will without involving the Nevada courts. Or, he may know that he cannot, but is proceeding as such because no one is challenging him. As a practical matter, he may be able to pull that off unless he's persuaded otherwise.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by Determined »

I will be in contact with my Ohio attorney to follow up on my minor son’s rights. I got the executor’s number from my adult children and just spoke with him. He is in the process of being named executor in Nevada. He got a 30 day notice to vacate the Vegas condo. The landlord is letting him in based on the will and death certificates. He is sending me all the probate info and contacts, and I will be on thE phone with my attorney first thing tomorrow morning.

To add to the mess, my ex’s family is burying his remains Friday in Iowa. Just you an email about that this morning. Myself and the kids are invited. I emailed his sister back letting her know that might have to be postponed.

Not so much about money as about my children wishes and needs for closure, especially my 15year old.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by celia »

Determined wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:03 am He actually worked for an insurance agency briefly two years ago. My son called the office snd found out that he took that retirement money out to put into Bitcoin last year. The office manager tried to talk him out of it.
**IF** he had active life insurance, I would bet he got it through the agency he worked for.

And since he was cashing out his retirement account, it would have been a small amount if he hadn’t worked there very long.
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Re: Locating a life insurance policy [via the executor of an estate]

Post by Determined »

celia wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:04 pm
Determined wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:03 am He actually worked for an insurance agency briefly two years ago. My son called the office snd found out that he took that retirement money out to put into Bitcoin last year. The office manager tried to talk him out of it.
**IF** he had active life insurance, I would bet he got it through the agency he worked for.

And since he was cashing out his retirement account, it would have been a small amount if he hadn’t worked there very long.
He did not have life insurance with them, but he did talk about having some because he need my youngest’s SS# for it. And yes, I’m sure the retirement was a small amount. He had already drained the retirement he had while we were married by then.
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