Working after Financial Independence

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.
flyingaway
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by flyingaway »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:32 am
flyingaway wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:04 am Money is always a good thing. Even if you are financially independent, you can become financially independent at a higher level with more money.
flyingaway,

My oldest brother and youngest sister had passed away. So, more money may mean less time/life to enjoy the money for me.

KlangFool
KlangFool:

I am sorry to hear about your oldest brother and youngest sister. Did they have any regrets in life?

When I said about working for more money, at least it is true in my case. Although I no longer love my teaching job, I do not hate it. I have been thinking about walking away right now, in a year, or in some future years, almost daily. But making more money does not seem to be a bad thing and walking away is difficult. I have nothing that I want to do and I cannot do with my job. I have three months of unpaid vacation time each year, so travelling or visiting family is not a problem. I want to help my children and one is currently unemployed. I want to fund my hobbies, including more visits to casinos (my entertainment). All needs money, the more the better.

However, if I retire or lose my job, I will not look for a job anymore.
EddyB
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by EddyB »

JoeRetire wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:44 am
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:51 am
In my case,

2) The new job's compensation is 40% higher.
If you are financially independent, I'm not sure why this makes any difference.
I think it’s appropriate to acknowledge that “financially independent” necessarily means “at a certain level of spending.” There are expenses beyond any financially independent person’s particular level of spending that aren’t worth the time or other consequences that would go into obtaining them at one pay rate, but may be worth it at a sufficiently higher rate. E.g., if I was generally ready to retire, and decided it wasn’t worth working, say, three more years to pay for a boat that I wanted, I could very rationally decide to keep working if I was offered a pay package that would allow me to save that amount in one year.
rich126
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by rich126 »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:51 am Folks,

After 1+ year of unemployment, someone made me an offer that I cannot refuse. So, I am back to work.

My question to the forum is this:

A) If you are Financially Independence (FI), what makes you go back to work?

B) After (A), what makes you retire eventually?

In my case,

1) Interesting work.

2) The new job's compensation is 40% higher.

3) Better work life balance

A) Work from home

B) Occasional 10 to 15 minutes commute to office.

4) Less stressful and slower pace environment.

KlangFool
And who says you can't find a job in your 50s (I'm also starting a new job in a few weeks)? :D

I'm looking to get out sooner than later but if I were to stay in a job I would want several things:
1. Fun work
2. Good environment (preferably at home)
3. Easy commute
4. Very flexible hours (almost would prefer to work based on an hourly rate)

Money would be almost no factor.

I wouldn't put up with:
1. long hours
2. Annoying people/managers
3. stock options (wouldn't be around long enough to collect and I don't have kids to leave anything to)
4. long commute (I hate commuting and my current 40 mile each way is my longest and I don't like it)

If your case if you go back, you may be more relaxed and not let as much stuff bother you since you know you can afford to live w/o a job. I think that helps a lot. Good luck.
----------------------------- | If you think something is important and it doesn't involve the health of someone, think again. Life goes too fast, enjoy it and be nice.
MindBogler
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by MindBogler »

Congrats, KlangFool! I see nothing wrong with working post-FI. You're in the driver's seat now and will be able to stay or leave on your own terms.

:sharebeer
TheDogFather
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Location: Virginia

Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by TheDogFather »

A) If you are Financially Independent (FI), what makes you go back to work?

I am FI. I was pushed out of the company I helped grow after a private equity investment. I left with more money than I will spend in this life given my relatively frugal nature, but the experience of growing a company making a product that thousands of companies wanted to buy was a rush that I wanted to try again. I joined a startup that really appreciates my expertise. The sense of accomplishment as we get big wins is currently as good as anything I'd get from non-work.

And the pandemic arrived before I exited my prior company so working from home was hardly cramping any ability to see the world.

Continuing to grow the nest egg means philanthropy will be bigger. Helping our kids with their kids' college costs, if they want. And my frugal self will be less 'troubled' by flying business class on long-haul world travels. And maybe Mrs. Dogfather will be more excited about keeping me company on the long trips to exotic locales. And I didn't feel any regret about that $60k car.


B) After (A), what makes you retire eventually?

I probably have up to 3 years or so left in this professional career before I want to shut it down. I work from home; no commute; no stress. I have control over my schedule.

While I am continuing to work I am also trying to re-develop the hobbies which I am passionate about that will eat up a big chunk of time in retirement. And working on a broader exercise regime to include more strength, stability, and anaerobic work rather than just running/hiking. Life may change of course that makes the 3-year timeline much shorter. But here we are today.

I do have a sense of FOMO and how many healthy years I have left, but then on weekends, I don't make full use of the time to pursue the things I think I might be missing out on. As I manage my time better to where working is actually cramping the other interests that have become more important to me, then I might pull the plug early.
Last edited by TheDogFather on Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
Fire2030
Posts: 67
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by Fire2030 »

Congratulations KlangFool ! :sharebeer
I am happy for you, have followed your threads with interest. This time you control your destiny and can leave on your terms if you aren't happy with the situation.

We are almost FI (~45x Exp - > Goal is 50x) earlier than expected.
Things that keep us working
a) We are still young (early/mid forties) and life can happen
b) health insurance and college costs
c) Work is not stressful, so keep chugging along.

Every year we add about 2 to 3x Expenses with just the savings due to RSU vesting. Portfolio growth is now more than the savings last few years as the crazy ride continues. At this point it's just the fear of unkown that keeps us going as we are still glass half empty when it comes to life as we were both middle class growing up and w/o much money, working on it to switch our attitudes :D

Fire2030
Last edited by Fire2030 on Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
flyingaway
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by flyingaway »

EddyB wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:02 am
JoeRetire wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:44 am
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:51 am
In my case,

2) The new job's compensation is 40% higher.
If you are financially independent, I'm not sure why this makes any difference.
I think it’s appropriate to acknowledge that “financially independent” necessarily means “at a certain level of spending.” There are expenses beyond any financially independent person’s particular level of spending that aren’t worth the time or other consequences that would go into obtaining them at one pay rate, but may be worth it at a sufficiently higher rate. E.g., if I was generally ready to retire, and decided it wasn’t worth working, say, three more years to pay for a boat that I wanted, I could very rationally decide to keep working if I was offered a pay package that would allow me to save that amount in one year.
Many MMM people try hard to control their expenses so that they could declare "financial independence". I think, as I posted before, that one can have different levels of financial independence. One can work more for more money, and get a higher level of financial independence. Working is for more money, no matter how people try to beautify it. If not for money, I would call it voluntary activity.
Topic Author
KlangFool
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by KlangFool »

rich126 wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:06 am
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:51 am Folks,

After 1+ year of unemployment, someone made me an offer that I cannot refuse. So, I am back to work.

My question to the forum is this:

A) If you are Financially Independence (FI), what makes you go back to work?

B) After (A), what makes you retire eventually?

In my case,

1) Interesting work.

2) The new job's compensation is 40% higher.

3) Better work life balance

A) Work from home

B) Occasional 10 to 15 minutes commute to office.

4) Less stressful and slower pace environment.

KlangFool
And who says you can't find a job in your 50s (I'm also starting a new job in a few weeks)? :D

I'm looking to get out sooner than later but if I were to stay in a job I would want several things:
1. Fun work
2. Good environment (preferably at home)
3. Easy commute
4. Very flexible hours (almost would prefer to work based on an hourly rate)

Money would be almost no factor.

I wouldn't put up with:
1. long hours
2. Annoying people/managers
3. stock options (wouldn't be around long enough to collect and I don't have kids to leave anything to)
4. long commute (I hate commuting and my current 40 mile each way is my longest and I don't like it)

If your case if you go back, you may be more relaxed and not let as much stuff bother you since you know you can afford to live w/o a job. I think that helps a lot. Good luck.
rich126,

<<Money would be almost no factor.>>

Yes and no. It is a factor on how much the employer valued your work. You may not need the money but why settle for less.

KlangFool
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eddot98
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Location: The Berkshires

Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by eddot98 »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:51 am Folks,

After 1+ year of unemployment, someone made me an offer that I cannot refuse. So, I am back to work.

My question to the forum is this:

A) If you are Financially Independence (FI), what makes you go back to work?

B) After (A), what makes you retire eventually?

In my case,

1) Interesting work.

2) The new job's compensation is 40% higher.

3) Better work life balance

A) Work from home

B) Occasional 10 to 15 minutes commute to office.

4) Less stressful and slower pace environment.

KlangFool
Congratulations Klangfool

A. Absolutely nothing. I am 70 years old and worked full time as a Professional Engineer for 36.5 years for a State Highway Agency and just shy of 10 years part time for a contractor after that. And because I want to live where we do, there was always a significant commute.
B. I was probably FI after retiring from the full time job, but that’s a concept that I never really explored. I was terminated from the part time job at the end of 2019. What I did for that contractor has been made untenable due to Covid-19 and that’s okay with me.
As a PE I had a lot of knowledge and experience that I just didn’t want to let go to waste, thus the part time job. While the part time job let me have some flexibility, I still had tasks that had to be done by a certain time or at a certain location. It worked for several years, but not any more. I’m even thinking of letting my license go inactive this December.
MathWizard
Posts: 6561
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:35 pm

Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by MathWizard »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:07 am DW won't let me retire.

First it was "The cost of college!!!"

Now it's "The cost of health insurance!!!"

We currently have 52 times spending in investment accounts, paid house, 4 paid cars and over $100k in checking/savings.

On the bright side, with all this money, I plan to order a Lotus Emira.
You can always get on her workplace health insurance. (She does work if she is telling you that
you can't quite with 52x expenses).

I'm the one who stays working despite being Financially Independent and my wife suggesting I retire.
Growing up poor, and remembering the early days of marriage when money was really tight, I am
probably overly fearful of ever returning to that state.

Life can deal you many surprises, so I am building in an extra buffer, from which we will only use earnings.
We can always cut back even without the buffer, but having that buffer will act like a shock absorber for the portfolio.
Topic Author
KlangFool
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by KlangFool »

flyingaway wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:00 am
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:32 am
flyingaway wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:04 am Money is always a good thing. Even if you are financially independent, you can become financially independent at a higher level with more money.
flyingaway,

My oldest brother and youngest sister had passed away. So, more money may mean less time/life to enjoy the money for me.

KlangFool
KlangFool:

I am sorry to hear about your oldest brother and youngest sister. Did they have any regrets in life?
flyingaway,

A) My oldest brother died a few months after retirement.

B) My youngest sister died of an accident.

I do not think they get to consider whether they have any regrets in life.

KlangFool
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worthit
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by worthit »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:51 am Folks,

After 1+ year of unemployment, someone made me an offer that I cannot refuse. So, I am back to work.

My question to the forum is this:

A) If you are Financially Independence (FI), what makes you go back to work?

B) After (A), what makes you retire eventually?

In my case,

1) Interesting work.

2) The new job's compensation is 40% higher.

3) Better work life balance

A) Work from home

B) Occasional 10 to 15 minutes commute to office.

4) Less stressful and slower pace environment.

KlangFool
Congratulations Klang!

A. Working on my terms although I am not there yet mentally and work wise but will get there sooner or later.

B. Physical/mental exhaustion and a huge interest to do something else (good and valuable) with my time.
Topic Author
KlangFool
Posts: 31525
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by KlangFool »

worthit wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:58 am
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:51 am Folks,

After 1+ year of unemployment, someone made me an offer that I cannot refuse. So, I am back to work.

My question to the forum is this:

A) If you are Financially Independence (FI), what makes you go back to work?

B) After (A), what makes you retire eventually?

In my case,

1) Interesting work.

2) The new job's compensation is 40% higher.

3) Better work life balance

A) Work from home

B) Occasional 10 to 15 minutes commute to office.

4) Less stressful and slower pace environment.

KlangFool
Congratulations Klang!

A. Working on my terms although I am not there yet mentally and work wise but will get there sooner or later.

B. Physical/mental exhaustion and a huge interest to do something else (good and valuable) with my time.
Thanks.

KlangFool
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firedup
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by firedup »

Congratulations, KlangFool. This sounds like a great opportunity. I'm sure it's also reaffirming to see your expertise is still valued (+40%)!

To answer your questions:

A) I would return to work if I felt the value of my time used at work was greater than the value of my freedom to do whatever, whenever. I retired to spend more time with my family so I would want to make sure my work would not interfere with that objective. I would also want to feel like I was making a contribution--helping make peoples' lives and society better.

B) I would quit the second I did not feel I could accomplish A). As you have pointed out with your family story, none of us knows how much time we have so I want to make sure I spend it wisely.

Best of luck on your next chapter! :sharebeer
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BH_RedRan
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by BH_RedRan »

I think my wife and I reached FI 5+ years ago although I don't think we believed it until about 2 years ago. Despite that understanding, my wife continues to work part-time through this year to finish up a long-term project that she is proud of and is important to her. I continued to work (self-employed) because I find design work very interesting, I can retire at the same time as my wife, and covid restrictions limited travel anyway. However, as time went by I found myself thinking more about what I could be doing apart from work. I removed myself from Linkedin about a year ago and have turned down a few new projects by bidding too high. (One long-time client said "yes" anyway and that is what I'm working on now.)

I feel like I'm leaving the career "on top" and on my terms. That is important to me. I've done more than I thought I would and future work seems to be more of the same to me. I certainly don't want to "stay too long at the fair". Our hobbies, travel and just having free time are calling out loudly to both of us.

Congratulations on your new job and future retirement!
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JoeRetire
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by JoeRetire »

EddyB wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:02 am I think it’s appropriate to acknowledge that “financially independent” necessarily means “at a certain level of spending.” There are expenses beyond any financially independent person’s particular level of spending that aren’t worth the time or other consequences that would go into obtaining them at one pay rate, but may be worth it at a sufficiently higher rate. E.g., if I was generally ready to retire, and decided it wasn’t worth working, say, three more years to pay for a boat that I wanted, I could very rationally decide to keep working if I was offered a pay package that would allow me to save that amount in one year.
Perhaps we have different definitions of the term.

To me, Financially Independent means "I have sufficient assets to fund the lifestyle I want for the rest of my life. I no longer need to work for money."
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Topic Author
KlangFool
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by KlangFool »

firedup wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:08 am Congratulations, KlangFool. This sounds like a great opportunity. I'm sure it's also reaffirming to see your expertise is still valued (+40%)!

To answer your questions:

A) I would return to work if I felt the value of my time used at work was greater than the value of my freedom to do whatever, whenever. I retired to spend more time with my family so I would want to make sure my work would not interfere with that objective. I would also want to feel like I was making a contribution--helping make peoples' lives and society better.

B) I would quit the second I did not feel I could accomplish A). As you have pointed out with your family story, none of us knows how much time we have so I want to make sure I spend it wisely.

Best of luck on your next chapter! :sharebeer
Thanks.

KlangFool
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KlangFool
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by KlangFool »

BH_RedRan wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:09 am I think my wife and I reached FI 5+ years ago although I don't think we believed it until about 2 years ago. Despite that understanding, my wife continues to work part-time through this year to finish up a long-term project that she is proud of and is important to her. I continued to work (self-employed) because I find design work very interesting, I can retire at the same time as my wife, and covid restrictions limited travel anyway. However, as time went by I found myself thinking more about what I could be doing apart from work. I removed myself from Linkedin about a year ago and have turned down a few new projects by bidding too high. (One long-time client said "yes" anyway and that is what I'm working on now.)

I feel like I'm leaving the career "on top" and on my terms. That is important to me. I've done more than I thought I would and future work seems to be more of the same to me. I certainly don't want to "stay too long at the fair". Our hobbies, travel and just having free time are calling out loudly to both of us.

Congratulations on your new job and future retirement!
BH_RedRan,

1) Thanks.

<<I feel like I'm leaving the career "on top" and on my terms.>>

2) I had reached my career top quite some time ago. So, this is no longer an issue for me.

KlangFool
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59Gibson
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by 59Gibson »

Congrats! Its the best type of work lifestyle. I'm 46 with over 40X, and work p/t in a totally diff field then past 20yrs. Less money but less demands. I only need to pull little out of portfolio if at all. I may try something completely different in the near future. All about options and freedom.
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AerialWombat
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by AerialWombat »

deleted
Last edited by AerialWombat on Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This post is a work of fiction. Any similarity to real financial advice is purely coincidental.
EddyB
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by EddyB »

JoeRetire wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:41 am
EddyB wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:02 am I think it’s appropriate to acknowledge that “financially independent” necessarily means “at a certain level of spending.” There are expenses beyond any financially independent person’s particular level of spending that aren’t worth the time or other consequences that would go into obtaining them at one pay rate, but may be worth it at a sufficiently higher rate. E.g., if I was generally ready to retire, and decided it wasn’t worth working, say, three more years to pay for a boat that I wanted, I could very rationally decide to keep working if I was offered a pay package that would allow me to save that amount in one year.
Perhaps we have different definitions of the term.

To me, Financially Independent means "I have sufficient assets to fund the lifestyle I want for the rest of my life. I no longer need to work for money."
Ah, I see; if you saw a $100 bill on the street (or were offered it in exchange for revealing your favorite brand of socks), you wouldn’t pick it up (or reveal your opinion), since you already have sufficient assets to fund the lifestyle you want. Same for $1,000, $10,000, or any other amount.

For me, though, identifying “the lifestyle I want” requires thinking about both money and time. Maybe I’d feel differently if I were closer to traditional retirement age, in poor health, etc., but the closer income comes to being “free,” the more interested I would be in doing what it took to get it.
jarjarM
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by jarjarM »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:07 am DW won't let me retire.

First it was "The cost of college!!!"

Now it's "The cost of health insurance!!!"

We currently have 52 times spending in investment accounts, paid house, 4 paid cars and over $100k in checking/savings.

On the bright side, with all this money, I plan to order a Lotus Emira.
This is exactly my situation as well. Even though we have >50x, DW is naturally conservative. I'm looking forward to that Lotus as well :beer
EddyB
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by EddyB »

[duplicate]
Last edited by EddyB on Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
EddyB
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by EddyB »

JoeRetire wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:41 am Perhaps we have different definitions of the term.

To me, Financially Independent means "I have sufficient assets to fund the lifestyle I want for the rest of my life. I no longer need to work for money."
Ah, I see; if you saw a $100 bill on the street (or were offered it in exchange for revealing your favorite brand of socks), you wouldn’t pick it up (or reveal your opinion), since you already have sufficient assets to fund the lifestyle you want. Same for $1,000, $10,000, or any other amount. You can see no positive utility in any additional amount of assets.

For me, identifying “the lifestyle I want” requires thinking about both money and time. Maybe I’d feel differently if I were closer to traditional retirement age, in poor health, etc., but the closer income comes to being “free,” the more interested I would be in doing what it took to get it. Are you sure your evaluation of your comfort with your retirement spending and assets levels didn’t consider the amount of work required to go into acquiring additional assets? If it did, then why would that consideration stop merely because you’d declared yourself retired?
Last edited by EddyB on Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Marseille07
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by Marseille07 »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:07 am DW won't let me retire.

First it was "The cost of college!!!"

Now it's "The cost of health insurance!!!"

We currently have 52 times spending in investment accounts, paid house, 4 paid cars and over $100k in checking/savings.

On the bright side, with all this money, I plan to order a Lotus Emira.
When you say 52 times, wouldn't that include the cost of college and cost of health insurance annualized / pro-rated?
Of course, there are unknowns that won't completely go away, but we have be reasonable with our estimates. Otherwise no one can ever retire.
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JoeRetire
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by JoeRetire »

EddyB wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:33 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:41 am
EddyB wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:02 am I think it’s appropriate to acknowledge that “financially independent” necessarily means “at a certain level of spending.” There are expenses beyond any financially independent person’s particular level of spending that aren’t worth the time or other consequences that would go into obtaining them at one pay rate, but may be worth it at a sufficiently higher rate. E.g., if I was generally ready to retire, and decided it wasn’t worth working, say, three more years to pay for a boat that I wanted, I could very rationally decide to keep working if I was offered a pay package that would allow me to save that amount in one year.
Perhaps we have different definitions of the term.

To me, Financially Independent means "I have sufficient assets to fund the lifestyle I want for the rest of my life. I no longer need to work for money."
Ah, I see; if you saw a $100 bill on the street (or were offered it in exchange for revealing your favorite brand of socks), you wouldn’t pick it up (or reveal your opinion), since you already have sufficient assets to fund the lifestyle you want. Same for $1,000, $10,000, or any other amount.
What an interesting assumption.

If the only "work" in procuring the penny, dime, dollar, $100 bill, etc was to bend down and pick it up, of course I'd do it.
If the work involved an actual job, then I wouldn't.

But of course you knew that. Exaggerating to absurdity wasn't really necessary here.
For me, though, identifying “the lifestyle I want” requires thinking about both money and time. Maybe I’d feel differently if I were closer to traditional retirement age, in poor health, etc., but the closer income comes to being “free,” the more interested I would be in doing what it took to get it.
Okay.

Maybe the difference is that I've already thought about both money and time before I decided that I was financially independent.
Are you sure your evaluation of your comfort with your retirement spending and assets levels didn’t consider the amount of work required to go into acquiring additional assets?
I'm quite sure.
If it was, then why would that consideration stop merely because you’d declared yourself retired?
Financial independence and declaring yourself retired aren't at all the same thing.
Last edited by JoeRetire on Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jarjarM
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by jarjarM »

Congrats Klang, I always enjoy your perspective on financial matters. Personally, if the work is enjoyable and you don't have mid-week blues, then working is fine. But when there's a Monday blue and you want the weekend to last a bit longer.
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by surfstar »

I have to feel glad that so many people love working so much and/or have nothing better to do, that they continue to work and produce and spend.
If everyone felt as I did, the economy would look much differently, I'm sure.

All that consumption and working helps our stocks go up and helps us get to FIRE sooner. Each time we come back from a weekend trip or longer vacation or the waves are good and I have to work - I just think how nice it'll be to FIRE.

I always come back to my Catch-22 theory - those who are driven enough to accumulate their own wealth, will continue to do so even when they could quite working. Me on the other hand...

“At either end of the social spectrum there lies a leisure class.”

I don't care to own a Lotus. I care to be free to surf when the waves are good, on a weekday. Without having to lie about being sick :P
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by AerialWombat »

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EddyB
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by EddyB »

JoeRetire wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:42 pm
EddyB wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:33 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:41 am
EddyB wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:02 am I think it’s appropriate to acknowledge that “financially independent” necessarily means “at a certain level of spending.” There are expenses beyond any financially independent person’s particular level of spending that aren’t worth the time or other consequences that would go into obtaining them at one pay rate, but may be worth it at a sufficiently higher rate. E.g., if I was generally ready to retire, and decided it wasn’t worth working, say, three more years to pay for a boat that I wanted, I could very rationally decide to keep working if I was offered a pay package that would allow me to save that amount in one year.
Perhaps we have different definitions of the term.

To me, Financially Independent means "I have sufficient assets to fund the lifestyle I want for the rest of my life. I no longer need to work for money."
Ah, I see; if you saw a $100 bill on the street (or were offered it in exchange for revealing your favorite brand of socks), you wouldn’t pick it up (or reveal your opinion), since you already have sufficient assets to fund the lifestyle you want. Same for $1,000, $10,000, or any other amount.
What an interesting assumption.

If the only "work" in procuring the penny, dime, dollar, $100 bill, etc was to bend down and pick it up, of course I'd do it.
If the work involved an actual job, then I wouldn't.

But of course you knew that. Exaggerating to absurdity wasn't really necessary here.
For me, though, identifying “the lifestyle I want” requires thinking about both money and time. Maybe I’d feel differently if I were closer to traditional retirement age, in poor health, etc., but the closer income comes to being “free,” the more interested I would be in doing what it took to get it.
Okay.

Maybe the difference is that I've already thought about both money and time before I decided that I was financially independent.
No, the exaggeration to absurdity reveals (in my opinion) that your prior statement was so absolute as to itself be absurd. You’re entitled to your opinion, but once you concede that there’s *some* amount that’s worth *some* effort, I presume you’ll admit that you can’t draw a universal line as to what that amount and effort is. Maybe you think there’s no way a 40% increase could justify that, but then “we’re just haggling over the price.”

As to your second point, an unwavering commitment to a prior decision even as circumstances change, is very similar to “anchoring.” A person who decides it’s time to retire, but soon thereafter sees a significant positive shift in the market for his or her skills, may very well decide (and very rationally, without previously having been “wrong”) that it opens the door to previously “unattainable” wants and justifies “unretiring.”
59Gibson
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by 59Gibson »

I think all of this talk of working while "FI"is not truly FI is missing the point of money/assets. It allows you to design the life you want, some want to play golf everyday, some want to sleep til noon, but If YOU are the one making the choices due to your assets then you're FI.
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by AerialWombat »

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JoeRetire
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by JoeRetire »

EddyB wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:00 pm No, the exaggeration to absurdity reveals (in my opinion) that your prior statement was so absolute as to itself be absurd. You’re entitled to your opinion, but once you concede that there’s *some* amount that’s worth *some* effort, I presume you’ll admit that you can’t draw a universal line as to what that amount and effort is. Maybe you think there’s no way a 40% increase could justify that, but then “we’re just haggling over the price.”
(sigh) Or, you are just arguing in order to argue. I've concluded that continuing this is no longer worth *any* effort. I wish you well.
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KlangFool
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by KlangFool »

AerialWombat wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:58 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:51 am Folks,

After 1+ year of unemployment, someone made me an offer that I cannot refuse. So, I am back to work.

My question to the forum is this:

A) If you are Financially Independence (FI), what makes you go back to work?

B) After (A), what makes you retire eventually?

In my case,

1) Interesting work.

2) The new job's compensation is 40% higher.

3) Better work life balance

A) Work from home

B) Occasional 10 to 15 minutes commute to office.

4) Less stressful and slower pace environment.

KlangFool
Congrats on the job! After your layoff, I had the feeling something would come your way. You just seem like an industrious person that always manages to bounce back.

To answer your questions:

A1. I make low six figures working only a few hours per week, from home, on my own schedule. I acknowledge the ridiculousness of it. It would just be stupid for me to shut that business down while it’s still profitable. It allows me to save 2-3x expenses per year, give more, and speculate on risky asset classes that I wouldn’t have touched three years ago.

A2. I genuinely love what I do and the people I do it for. Tremendous satisfaction.

B. I honestly doubt I will ever truly retire, in the full Internet Retirement Police sense. Running even a tiny business is something I will always do as a hobby, it’s just part of who I am and something I like doing. It will probably take cognitive decline/dementia to force me out of work entirely.
Thank you for your post!

KlangFool
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KlangFool
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by KlangFool »

jarjarM wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:45 pm Congrats Klang, I always enjoy your perspective on financial matters. Personally, if the work is enjoyable and you don't have mid-week blues, then working is fine. But when there's a Monday blue and you want the weekend to last a bit longer.
Thanks.

KlangFool
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by KlangFool »

surfstar wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:48 pm I have to feel glad that so many people love working so much and/or have nothing better to do, that they continue to work and produce and spend.
If everyone felt as I did, the economy would look much differently, I'm sure.

All that consumption and working helps our stocks go up and helps us get to FIRE sooner. Each time we come back from a weekend trip or longer vacation or the waves are good and I have to work - I just think how nice it'll be to FIRE.

I always come back to my Catch-22 theory - those who are driven enough to accumulate their own wealth, will continue to do so even when they could quite working. Me on the other hand...

“At either end of the social spectrum there lies a leisure class.”

I don't care to own a Lotus. I care to be free to surf when the waves are good, on a weekday. Without having to lie about being sick :P
Good for you!!

KlangFool
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by surfstar »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:14 pm
surfstar wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:48 pm I have to feel glad that so many people love working so much and/or have nothing better to do, that they continue to work and produce and spend.
If everyone felt as I did, the economy would look much differently, I'm sure.

All that consumption and working helps our stocks go up and helps us get to FIRE sooner. Each time we come back from a weekend trip or longer vacation or the waves are good and I have to work - I just think how nice it'll be to FIRE.

I always come back to my Catch-22 theory - those who are driven enough to accumulate their own wealth, will continue to do so even when they could quite working. Me on the other hand...

“At either end of the social spectrum there lies a leisure class.”

I don't care to own a Lotus. I care to be free to surf when the waves are good, on a weekday. Without having to lie about being sick :P
Good for you!!

KlangFool
A sincere congrats on your new job. Honestly!

I feel like we have mutual sympathy - people can't imagine how someone like me could dread working each day and I can't imagine working when you no longer have to. It balances out I suppose!
:sharebeer
afan
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by afan »

I keep working because
1. I find parts of the work fascinating. I would be bored to tears trying to find something else to do that could compete.
2. I view the work as socially useful, so I feel an obligation to keep doing it as long as I can.

1 and 2 mean that I would keep doing it if the market were to greatly devalue the work. I would not keep working if they proposed to pay me far below market because, why would I accept that?
There is a significant part of the job that I would do for free.

3. I like increasing my net worth by living off earned income and directing more money to savings. If I were to retire, I would start drawing on existing assets. I project that networth would continue to increase, but more slowly. It would increase because annual investment returns, at a conservative projected real return, should be higher than annual spending. But taking out living expenses would make the growth much slower.

4. It is not particularly flexible or low stress, but neither of those are priorities for me.
5. More money means higher inheritance for my heirs, which is important to me. It also means more money for charities.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
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KlangFool
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by KlangFool »

surfstar wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:20 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:14 pm
surfstar wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:48 pm I have to feel glad that so many people love working so much and/or have nothing better to do, that they continue to work and produce and spend.
If everyone felt as I did, the economy would look much differently, I'm sure.

All that consumption and working helps our stocks go up and helps us get to FIRE sooner. Each time we come back from a weekend trip or longer vacation or the waves are good and I have to work - I just think how nice it'll be to FIRE.

I always come back to my Catch-22 theory - those who are driven enough to accumulate their own wealth, will continue to do so even when they could quite working. Me on the other hand...

“At either end of the social spectrum there lies a leisure class.”

I don't care to own a Lotus. I care to be free to surf when the waves are good, on a weekday. Without having to lie about being sick :P
Good for you!!

KlangFool
A sincere congrats on your new job. Honestly!

I feel like we have mutual sympathy - people can't imagine how someone like me could dread working each day and I can't imagine working when you no longer have to. It balances out I suppose!
:sharebeer
surfstar,

No, I understand you perfectly. To me, most of my works involved solving interesting complex technical problems. It is like playing a game for me. I won't mind getting paid for playing game that I am very good at. And, as I am getting up in the technical ladder, I no longer have to deal with the mundane and simple stuff. I am too expensive and too valuable. So, the technical content of my work increases. It becomes more enjoyable for me.

I am an engineer. I solve interesting problem as part of my job.

KlangFool
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wander
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by wander »

If I am FI, I will stop looking for work.
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KlangFool
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by KlangFool »

afan wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:26 pm I keep working because
1. I find parts of the work fascinating. I would be bored to tears trying to find something else to do that could compete.
2. I view the work as socially useful, so I feel an obligation to keep doing it as long as I can.

1 and 2 mean that I would keep doing it if the market were to greatly devalue the work. I would not keep working if they proposed to pay me far below market because, why would I accept that?
There is a significant part of the job that I would do for free.

3. I like increasing my net worth by living off earned income and directing more money to savings. If I were to retire, I would start drawing on existing assets. I project that networth would continue to increase, but more slowly. It would increase because annual investment returns, at a conservative projected real return, should be higher than annual spending. But taking out living expenses would make the growth much slower.

4. It is not particularly flexible or low stress, but neither of those are priorities for me.
5. More money means higher inheritance for my heirs, which is important to me. It also means more money for charities.
Thank you for your post.

KlangFool
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by InvestorHowie »

Congrats Klang! I just hope you'll still have plenty of time to offer thoughtful and constructively challenging responses to my future posts!

As for DW and I, we're still years away from our 'SWAN range' which begins at about 33x current mortgage-included expenses but once we reach the low end of that range we'll likely begin planning our relocation where I'll find something low-stress, part-time and fulfilling after a nice long break. The income won't be a factor so volunteer work is definitely a consideration. Social and charitable/'giving back' aspects are probably the leading motivators for me.

Best of luck with your new gig!
Time is your friend; impulse is your enemy. --John C. Bogle
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by KlangFool »

InvestorHowie wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:30 pm Congrats Klang! I just hope you'll still have plenty of time to offer thoughtful and constructively challenging responses to my future posts!

As for DW and I, we're still years away from our 'SWAN range' which begins at about 33x current mortgage-included expenses but once we reach the low end of that range we'll likely begin planning our relocation where I'll find something low-stress, part-time and fulfilling after a nice long break. The income won't be a factor so volunteer work is definitely a consideration. Social and charitable/'giving back' aspects are probably the leading motivators for me.

Best of luck with your new gig!
Thank you for your post!

KlangFool
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by quantAndHold »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:51 am Folks,

After 1+ year of unemployment, someone made me an offer that I cannot refuse. So, I am back to work.

My question to the forum is this:

A) If you are Financially Independence (FI), what makes you go back to work?
Nothing has, yet. When I quit, I was burned out, and no opportunity I’ve had since has made me think that a job would be better than my current life. I did do a couple of interviews during the height of the pandemic a year or so ago mostly out of boredom, but the right opportunity didn’t present itself. Now that my life has returned to semi-normal, I think the “going back to work” ship has sailed.

Congratulations on the new job, though!
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by tomsense76 »

Congratulations KlangFool! That's great news :sharebeer

I guess technically I reached the lowest level of FI recently. Namely 25x expenses.

Still working as I'm in my 30s, may want to get married/have kids/buy a house in the future, may need to help out parents in the future, expected returns are lower going forward, etc.. Though most importantly I like my career and feel like I'm doing some of my most impactful work.
"Anyone who claims to understand quantum theory is either lying or crazy" -- Richard Feynman
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by KlangFool »

quantAndHold wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:20 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:51 am Folks,

After 1+ year of unemployment, someone made me an offer that I cannot refuse. So, I am back to work.

My question to the forum is this:

A) If you are Financially Independence (FI), what makes you go back to work?
Nothing has, yet. When I quit, I was burned out, and no opportunity I’ve had since has made me think that a job would be better than my current life. I did do a couple of interviews during the height of the pandemic a year or so ago mostly out of boredom, but the right opportunity didn’t present itself. Now that my life has returned to semi-normal, I think the “going back to work” ship has sailed.

Congratulations on the new job, though!
Thanks.

KlangFool
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by KlangFool »

tomsense76 wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:27 pm Congratulations KlangFool! That's great news :sharebeer

I guess technically I reached the lowest level of FI recently. Namely 25x expenses.

Still working as I'm in my 30s, may want to get married/have kids/buy a house in the future, may need to help out parents in the future, expected returns are lower going forward, etc.. Though most importantly I like my career and feel like I'm doing some of my most impactful work.
Thanks. Glad that you still find your job fulfilling.

KlangFool
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halfnine
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by halfnine »

I guess I am quasi-retired, quasi-FI so not sure how much it matters or how much it counts. But if the spouse still works or the kids are still minor doing some mentally challenging part time work is fine by me. Otherwise can't really go anywhere for very long anyway.
printer86
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by printer86 »

Klang,

Congrats on getting the job and the bump in pay. It must feel good to be appreciated for your expertise and experience. Make the best of it and use the extra money on something nice, whatever that is.

I was in B2B sales for most of my career. I have no other skill. I retired last year and just don't want to hustle like that anymore.

We have enough. More would be better. Right now, we chose where we splurge. But, either way, we're still going to lay flat on those international flights.
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Re: Working after Financial Independence

Post by mrspock »

Large opulent vacation homes, and Pied-à-terre's in world class cities .... only half joking. :)

It comes down to what is your point of diminishing returns on increasing your standard of living? For me it's 100% business class travel, 1-2 vacation homes and ~$150-200k/yr in spending. After that I'm "good". Little incremental value flying private, or having 5 houses, or a fancy car collection etc.

Others however may get great joy from those things, so more power to them, as will some get similar joy I get from living in a grass hut. Again, more power to them.
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