NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
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NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
Back in June of 2020 I moved from New York State to North Carolina with my family. My company is based out of Florida. I work from my home office , I am a w2.
I filed a part time non resident return with New York state and a resident return with North Carolina. I used a CPA.
NYS came back with a residency status request. I provided all information, proving that I lived in NY less than 184 days ( moving receipt shows June move) and that I purchased a home in NC ( closing contract, utilities, drivers license, etc all provided) and sold my home in NY.
After providing that , they then asked me to provide copy of records showing my move from NY to NC ( movers invoice) and copy of employment agreement to show what office I worked out ( which is my home in NC). I provided both. They had this info for 6 weeks.
Fast forward to today. I received a notice that a review of my return has resulted in additional tax, penalty, or interest due. They state: your information does not establish your assigned primary work location is outside of New York State or show you have met the factors to prover your employer had established a bona fide employer office at your telecommuting location. Therefore , you owe New York state income tax on income earned while telecommuting.
Here is the thing. My company isnt based in NY. We have no offices there, zero foot print. Is it possible that NYS doesnt realize that my firm isnt based out of NY and has no footprint, therefore I have no NY earnings? I feel if they knew this one fact then I would win my case. After I moved out of NY all my earnings were generated while I worked in NC for a Florida company, NY doesnt factor in at all.
This is my first audit. Any advice would be welcome.
I've called and called NYS, and emailed. No one writes back or returns phone calls. Feels like Im drifting in the wind.
Thanks the for help.
I filed a part time non resident return with New York state and a resident return with North Carolina. I used a CPA.
NYS came back with a residency status request. I provided all information, proving that I lived in NY less than 184 days ( moving receipt shows June move) and that I purchased a home in NC ( closing contract, utilities, drivers license, etc all provided) and sold my home in NY.
After providing that , they then asked me to provide copy of records showing my move from NY to NC ( movers invoice) and copy of employment agreement to show what office I worked out ( which is my home in NC). I provided both. They had this info for 6 weeks.
Fast forward to today. I received a notice that a review of my return has resulted in additional tax, penalty, or interest due. They state: your information does not establish your assigned primary work location is outside of New York State or show you have met the factors to prover your employer had established a bona fide employer office at your telecommuting location. Therefore , you owe New York state income tax on income earned while telecommuting.
Here is the thing. My company isnt based in NY. We have no offices there, zero foot print. Is it possible that NYS doesnt realize that my firm isnt based out of NY and has no footprint, therefore I have no NY earnings? I feel if they knew this one fact then I would win my case. After I moved out of NY all my earnings were generated while I worked in NC for a Florida company, NY doesnt factor in at all.
This is my first audit. Any advice would be welcome.
I've called and called NYS, and emailed. No one writes back or returns phone calls. Feels like Im drifting in the wind.
Thanks the for help.
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
NY is aggressive with residency audits. This is probably not a DIY situation.
Have you called your CPA to discuss the situation?
If your CPA hasn’t (successfully) handled NY residency audits, consider consulting with an experienced NY CPA or tax attorney who can advocate on your behalf with the NY state tax department (assuming the CPA/attorney agrees with your position that you were not a resident of NY up until your move date).
Have you called your CPA to discuss the situation?
If your CPA hasn’t (successfully) handled NY residency audits, consider consulting with an experienced NY CPA or tax attorney who can advocate on your behalf with the NY state tax department (assuming the CPA/attorney agrees with your position that you were not a resident of NY up until your move date).
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
Not sure if this will help, but here's my recent experience with NYS.
Last fall we received a letter that a review of our 2017 return led NYS to decide we didn't qualify for a college tax credit for DS4. They looked at the 1098T, saw scholarships exceeded tuition, concluded we paid zero tuition, QED, not eligible for credit.
What they couldn't see (looking at only the parental tax return) is that DS4 claimed > $5k in scholarships as taxable income on his tax return (and paid NYS tax on it).
The letter from NYS had info on how to appeal the decision. I had to create an account with NYS, and thru an online portal I could upload supporting documentation (DS4's federal and state tax returns) and a brief explanation of the details of my appeal.
A while later, I received another letter that NYS had changed its decision, we owed no tax or interest, keep this letter as the only acknowledgement, etc.
Then I received notice they'd decided we didn't qualify for the college tax credit in 2018. I thought it would be a slam dunk to correct this one, too. Nope, I must have been a bit too glib/brief with my explanation the second time, they rejected my appeal. So I appealed, again, explaining in excruciating detail the numbers and reference pages in DS4's returns, saved a copy of my explanation (unfortunately, NYS portal has no look back). That time I was also successful in getting the credit reinstated.
Any option on your letter to appeal?
Last fall we received a letter that a review of our 2017 return led NYS to decide we didn't qualify for a college tax credit for DS4. They looked at the 1098T, saw scholarships exceeded tuition, concluded we paid zero tuition, QED, not eligible for credit.
What they couldn't see (looking at only the parental tax return) is that DS4 claimed > $5k in scholarships as taxable income on his tax return (and paid NYS tax on it).
The letter from NYS had info on how to appeal the decision. I had to create an account with NYS, and thru an online portal I could upload supporting documentation (DS4's federal and state tax returns) and a brief explanation of the details of my appeal.
A while later, I received another letter that NYS had changed its decision, we owed no tax or interest, keep this letter as the only acknowledgement, etc.
Then I received notice they'd decided we didn't qualify for the college tax credit in 2018. I thought it would be a slam dunk to correct this one, too. Nope, I must have been a bit too glib/brief with my explanation the second time, they rejected my appeal. So I appealed, again, explaining in excruciating detail the numbers and reference pages in DS4's returns, saved a copy of my explanation (unfortunately, NYS portal has no look back). That time I was also successful in getting the credit reinstated.
Any option on your letter to appeal?
Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
contacting a NYS accountant is a good idea; just make sure that they have worked a lot with transplants. New York is particularity persnickety about losing tax revenue due to COVID as many just moved out of state temporarily when much of the state shut down. For a permanent relo, NY takes a position that the move has to be at the desire of the employer, not just for your convenience. Take a look at what your employment letter says, the one that you submitted to NYS.
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
@ teen persuasionteen persuasion wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 12:37 pm Not sure if this will help, but here's my recent experience with NYS.
Last fall we received a letter that a review of our 2017 return led NYS to decide we didn't qualify for a college tax credit for DS4. They looked at the 1098T, saw scholarships exceeded tuition, concluded we paid zero tuition, QED, not eligible for credit.
What they couldn't see (looking at only the parental tax return) is that DS4 claimed > $5k in scholarships as taxable income on his tax return (and paid NYS tax on it).
The letter from NYS had info on how to appeal the decision. I had to create an account with NYS, and thru an online portal I could upload supporting documentation (DS4's federal and state tax returns) and a brief explanation of the details of my appeal.
A while later, I received another letter that NYS had changed its decision, we owed no tax or interest, keep this letter as the only acknowledgement, etc.
Then I received notice they'd decided we didn't qualify for the college tax credit in 2018. I thought it would be a slam dunk to correct this one, too. Nope, I must have been a bit too glib/brief with my explanation the second time, they rejected my appeal. So I appealed, again, explaining in excruciating detail the numbers and reference pages in DS4's returns, saved a copy of my explanation (unfortunately, NYS portal has no look back). That time I was also successful in getting the credit reinstated.
Any option on your letter to appeal?
Sorry for your past tax situation, glad they worked out in your favor and thanks for the detail.
I have been uploading via the portal since the headache started. I do have the ability to informally protest via the online services, which is the way I will be going with this.
So can you protest multiple times?
@homestretch
Yes, from what I have read NYS is very aggresive with situations like this.Yup I have been in contact with my CPA. I dont believe he is very knowledgeable with this, but he has offered help. He doesnt understand why they are demanding payment considering my move and that my company has no presence in NY. I have my feelers out to find a tax attorney in the meantime.
It wasn't so much a relocation for work, as I have worked from home for the past 8 years , all of which is with this company. My companies letter explained that I was transferred to NC and that I am allowed to work out of NC, while the firm considers opening a NC office there. NYS was requesting that I provide a employment agreement to show what office I was assigned to. I guess their thinking was, since there is no office yet in NC, then I dont meet their requirements.
THanks for all the comments guys, I appreciate it.
Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
It may not be directly relevant to your case but I was similarly audited by NYC when I moved out big NYC ( but within NY state). I had to persist and send them the documents over three different years but eventually they accepted my move was correct and legal and I did not owe any taxes to NYC.
I suspect they are sending these notices en mass to see who will just pay up. Keep appealing and keep sending proof of your move. ( All certified mail) of course.
If you have even sold your house in NY state, they cannot argue that you still live in the state. However they will try
Good luck
I suspect they are sending these notices en mass to see who will just pay up. Keep appealing and keep sending proof of your move. ( All certified mail) of course.
If you have even sold your house in NY state, they cannot argue that you still live in the state. However they will try
Good luck
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
It's clear the OP actively changed his domicile from NY to NC upon moving, right?
In which case, since OP was not physically in NY for 183 days, OP was a non-resident upon the move: https://www.tax.ny.gov/pit/file/nonresi ... ysresident
So either NY is disputing this, OR they believe the employer had a NY location which is where OP worked, and also continues to be based in the (apparently non-existent) NY office.
In which case, since OP was not physically in NY for 183 days, OP was a non-resident upon the move: https://www.tax.ny.gov/pit/file/nonresi ... ysresident
So either NY is disputing this, OR they believe the employer had a NY location which is where OP worked, and also continues to be based in the (apparently non-existent) NY office.
I think this is exactly what they don't realize, yes. It seems they are asking for proof the employer doesn't have a NY presence. It does seem as if you are being asked to prove a negative.Is it possible that NYS doesnt realize that my firm isnt based out of NY and has no footprint, therefore I have no NY earnings?
Sounds like you have a general plan! But you still likely need expert advice about the best or most-efficient way to get NY to recognize this one fact. I have no idea whether some letter from your employer would be helpful?I feel if they knew this one fact then I would win my case.
If you have to ask "Is a Target Date fund right for me?", the answer is "Yes" (even in taxable accounts).
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
This is my exact thinking. ANd yeah I doubt even a letter from employer will prove this but I shall try! Now I just need to find someone to help me, though once again bogleheads makes me feel better about my chances!neurosphere wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 1:19 pm It's clear the OP actively changed his domicile from NY to NC upon moving, right?
In which case, since OP was not physically in NY for 183 days, OP was a non-resident upon the move: https://www.tax.ny.gov/pit/file/nonresi ... ysresident
So either NY is disputing this, OR they believe the employer had a NY location which is where OP worked, and also continues to be based in the (apparently non-existent) NY office.
I think this is exactly what they don't realize, yes. It seems they are asking for proof the employer doesn't have a NY presence. It does seem as if you are being asked to prove a negative.Is it possible that NYS doesnt realize that my firm isnt based out of NY and has no footprint, therefore I have no NY earnings?
Sounds like you have a general plan! But you still likely need expert advice about the best or most-efficient way to get NY to recognize this one fact. I have no idea whether some letter from your employer would be helpful?I feel if they knew this one fact then I would win my case.
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
I don't see this holding up in the long term (if this is NY's position, OP could owe NY tax for the rest of his life), but last I knew these types of issues were being litigated (MA changed similar rules due to Covid, attempting to tax people who neither live nor work in MA).
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
Three years, that is incredible persistence on your end, good on ya! And yes, I bet lots of people are in my situation unfortunately.ag1 wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 1:18 pm It may not be directly relevant to your case but I was similarly audited by NYC when I moved out big NYC ( but within NY state). I had to persist and send them the documents over three different years but eventually they accepted my move was correct and legal and I did not owe any taxes to NYC.
I suspect they are sending these notices en mass to see who will just pay up. Keep appealing and keep sending proof of your move. ( All certified mail) of course.
If you have even sold your house in NY state, they cannot argue that you still live in the state. However they will try
Good luck
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
When you moved, did your employer change your state of residency and stop sending tax to NY? Many employers don't do anything automatically and you may need to contact your company payroll department to ask them to change the state of residency. My wife had RI tax withheld last year even though she lives and works in Mass. Since the mother ship is in RI, they just assumed she lived there. We got tax credited with both RI and Mass collecting income tax, so no added tax for us, but as my CPA pointed out, we're paying an extra $75 for them to fill out one more state form. DW had her payroll change the state to Mass.
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
.Great question. Yes , my company upon my move in June, stopped sending tax to NY and started sending tax to NC. My payroll knows my residency as NC.Jack FFR1846 wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 1:38 pm When you moved, did your employer change your state of residency and stop sending tax to NY? Many employers don't do anything automatically and you may need to contact your company payroll department to ask them to change the state of residency. My wife had RI tax withheld last year even though she lives and works in Mass. Since the mother ship is in RI, they just assumed she lived there. We got tax credited with both RI and Mass collecting income tax, so no added tax for us, but as my CPA pointed out, we're paying an extra $75 for them to fill out one more state form. DW had her payroll change the state to Mass.
Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
If you end up paying the NY state audit tab, I would guess you could claim a credit for the additional NY income tax on your NC income tax. So maybe not a complete loss.
NY thinks you owe tax as a non-resident on NY source income. There are a few criteria that might qualify your pay as NY source income. If your employer has operations in NY, then it does look like your move was voluntary and your pay still qualifies as NY source income. There is also NY accrued income - basically money your earned while in NY but wasn't paid until you left NY. Things like apportioned bonuses and guaranteed options can be NY accrued income.
NY thinks you owe tax as a non-resident on NY source income. There are a few criteria that might qualify your pay as NY source income. If your employer has operations in NY, then it does look like your move was voluntary and your pay still qualifies as NY source income. There is also NY accrued income - basically money your earned while in NY but wasn't paid until you left NY. Things like apportioned bonuses and guaranteed options can be NY accrued income.
Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
Note to self - never, ever, ever move back to New York State.FrugalConservative wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 12:17 pm This is my first audit. Any advice would be welcome.
I've called and called NYS, and emailed. No one writes back or returns phone calls. Feels like Im drifting in the wind.
Sorry that you’re going through this. It sounds like you’re forming a good plan. Hope that it turns out ok.
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
My income is pretty vaniIla, no options or things of that nature. I have been working from home for years, which they are unaware of I believe, they may believe that I have been working out of an office in NY, and in their eyes I may have moved but my income is still sourced from NY office, which it isnt!PVW wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 1:43 pm If you end up paying the NY state audit tab, I would guess you could claim a credit for the additional NY income tax on your NC income tax. So maybe not a complete loss.
NY thinks you owe tax as a non-resident on NY source income. There are a few criteria that might qualify your pay as NY source income. If your employer has operations in NY, then it does look like your move was voluntary and your pay still qualifies as NY source income. There is also NY accrued income - basically money your earned while in NY but wasn't paid until you left NY. Things like apportioned bonuses and guaranteed options can be NY accrued income.
My company has never been in New York, our headquarters is 30 minutes outside disney world!
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
Thanks !Stinky wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 1:55 pmNote to self - never, ever, ever move back to New York State.FrugalConservative wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 12:17 pm This is my first audit. Any advice would be welcome.
I've called and called NYS, and emailed. No one writes back or returns phone calls. Feels like Im drifting in the wind.
Sorry that you’re going through this. It sounds like you’re forming a good plan. Hope that it turns out ok.
Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
This is probably where you need a professional, but if your company has a presence or does business in NY, then the NY tax auditors might claim your income is sourced from your company's NY state operations.FrugalConservative wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 2:03 pmMy income is pretty vaniIla, no options or things of that nature. I have been working from home for years, which they are unaware of I believe, they may believe that I have been working out of an office in NY, and in their eyes I may have moved but my income is still sourced from NY office, which it isnt!PVW wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 1:43 pm If you end up paying the NY state audit tab, I would guess you could claim a credit for the additional NY income tax on your NC income tax. So maybe not a complete loss.
NY thinks you owe tax as a non-resident on NY source income. There are a few criteria that might qualify your pay as NY source income. If your employer has operations in NY, then it does look like your move was voluntary and your pay still qualifies as NY source income. There is also NY accrued income - basically money your earned while in NY but wasn't paid until you left NY. Things like apportioned bonuses and guaranteed options can be NY accrued income.
My company has never been in New York, our headquarters is 30 minutes outside disney world!
Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
Did you leave any lingering/trailing connections to NYS? Things like a driver's license, vehicle license, fishing/hunting license, library card, mailing address in NYS on bank/brokerage account/magazine subscription/etc/etc/etc. If NYS is grabbing at crumbs they will continue to do so until you clean up the crumbs.
The closest helping hand is at the end of your own arm.
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
Good insight. My NYS drivers license was surrendered when I picked up my new NC license ( NC dmv contacts NY). All mailing addresses have been updated, especially the important ones ( Bank, brokerage and all credit cards). Thanks for the heads up , will continue to track down the crumbs I have may have overlooked!123 wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 3:34 pm Did you leave any lingering/trailing connections to NYS? Things like a driver's license, vehicle license, fishing/hunting license, library card, mailing address in NYS on bank/brokerage account/magazine subscription/etc/etc/etc. If NYS is grabbing at crumbs they will continue to do so until you clean up the crumbs.
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
Agreed regarding professional assistance. My company doesnt have a presence in New York, so not sure how they could tie my income to any NY operation.PVW wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 2:44 pmThis is probably where you need a professional, but if your company has a presence or does business in NY, then the NY tax auditors might claim your income is sourced from your company's NY state operations.FrugalConservative wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 2:03 pmMy income is pretty vaniIla, no options or things of that nature. I have been working from home for years, which they are unaware of I believe, they may believe that I have been working out of an office in NY, and in their eyes I may have moved but my income is still sourced from NY office, which it isnt!PVW wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 1:43 pm If you end up paying the NY state audit tab, I would guess you could claim a credit for the additional NY income tax on your NC income tax. So maybe not a complete loss.
NY thinks you owe tax as a non-resident on NY source income. There are a few criteria that might qualify your pay as NY source income. If your employer has operations in NY, then it does look like your move was voluntary and your pay still qualifies as NY source income. There is also NY accrued income - basically money your earned while in NY but wasn't paid until you left NY. Things like apportioned bonuses and guaranteed options can be NY accrued income.
My company has never been in New York, our headquarters is 30 minutes outside disney world!
Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
For out-of-area employees who worked from home, our former company used to print the employee's home address as their official Work Location in the offer letter, or transfer letter. And what I've read online, I believe that this is exactly what NY is questioning: whether your NC location is a "bona fide employer office" for purposes of income taxes. In other words, did you move for your convenience, or at the direction of your employer. A firmer letter from your HR department could probably clear this up: Dear Frugal: Effective June xx, 2020, your new work location is xxx, North Carolina. Your salary will remain the same. We will not reimburse you for relocation expenses.....It wasn't so much a relocation for work, as I have worked from home for the past 8 years , all of which is with this company. My companies letter explained that I was transferred to NC and that I am allowed to work out of NC, while the firm considers opening a NC office there. NYS was requesting that I provide a employment agreement to show what office I was assigned to. I guess their thinking was, since there is no office yet in NC, then I dont meet their requirements.
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Last edited by Big Dog on Mon May 24, 2021 4:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
They kinda have you where they want you. Pay thousands in taxes you shouldn’t owe or pay attorneys and accountants thousands to resolve an obvious situation.
Nice state. Don’t move back there or anywhere like it.
JT
Nice state. Don’t move back there or anywhere like it.
JT
Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
Almost all residency audits involve two things - residency (which is two-pronged in and of itself) and if you win on residency, nonresident allocation.
Probably doesn't help you after the fact, but for others reading this, you really should hire a professional to handle this for you. There's a lot of incorrect information out there on blogs, etc that while not strictly incorrect, they can be read incorrectly by the "uninitiated".
It sounds like they *may* have agreed that you established domicile in NC in June (or whatever date). Similarly, it sounds like they *may* have agreed that you were not a statutory resident (which is actually pretty easy to prove if you abandoned and did not establish a new permanent place of abode as of June).
I say they seem to have agreed because residency is usually first, then they move to allocation, for obvious reasons. Since they're talking about your work location and bona fide employer office, which is an allocation issue, you can *maybe* forget about residency.
You do have to show that you are assigned to an office outside NY. Honestly, you probably screwed up when you gave them your home address.
All that said, find someone who can help who knows what they're doing. I've never dealt with an audit without an assigned auditor, and it's unclear from your posts what stage you're actually at, so I really have no idea where you go from here, other than to a tax professional familiar with these issues. It shouldn't be *that* complicated so you don't have to hire Hodgson and Russ or a firm like that, but just someone who has done this before.
Probably doesn't help you after the fact, but for others reading this, you really should hire a professional to handle this for you. There's a lot of incorrect information out there on blogs, etc that while not strictly incorrect, they can be read incorrectly by the "uninitiated".
It sounds like they *may* have agreed that you established domicile in NC in June (or whatever date). Similarly, it sounds like they *may* have agreed that you were not a statutory resident (which is actually pretty easy to prove if you abandoned and did not establish a new permanent place of abode as of June).
I say they seem to have agreed because residency is usually first, then they move to allocation, for obvious reasons. Since they're talking about your work location and bona fide employer office, which is an allocation issue, you can *maybe* forget about residency.
You do have to show that you are assigned to an office outside NY. Honestly, you probably screwed up when you gave them your home address.
All that said, find someone who can help who knows what they're doing. I've never dealt with an audit without an assigned auditor, and it's unclear from your posts what stage you're actually at, so I really have no idea where you go from here, other than to a tax professional familiar with these issues. It shouldn't be *that* complicated so you don't have to hire Hodgson and Russ or a firm like that, but just someone who has done this before.
Made money. Lost money. Learned to stop counting.
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
Yeah, that's the conclusion I came to, too. My first notice was last fall, when the state budget was cratering from Covid expenses. Given that the credit we were squabbling over was only $200, it felt like NYS was scrounging in the couch cushions for loose change.
The notice was pretty heavy-handed about paying the tax owed (plus interest) RIGHT NOW to stop the interest accruing while sorting out the details. Umm, no, I know I'm clearly eligible for the credit. I have no plans to proactively repay it.
Besides, what changed? We had no issues with kids 1, 2, and 3 for 4 years each of this credit. Why suddenly question on kid #4 retroactively?
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
Apparently. The way the denial letter read, I could protest the denial, so I did.
Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
It sounds like you are assigned to an office in FL and just need to make that clear. Another letter from your company that clarifies they have no presence in NY and that you work for a FL office might be enough.
A CPA in NY sounds like the next step if that doesn't work.
A CPA in NY sounds like the next step if that doesn't work.
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
Do you suppose it's possible to do a class-action lawsuit against a city? This stuff sounds pretty egregious, and someone really needs their hands slapped really hard here.
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
Interesting thoughts. I was assigned an Auditor at NYS Dept of Tax and Finance right from the get go. She does not return my calls unfortunately. NYS initially requested additional info for my return ( two sperate requests). Recently they gave a notice that after a review of my return, and after they took into consideration all the information I provided them, has resulted in additional tax. I know have the option to disagree.hachiko wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 6:01 pm Almost all residency audits involve two things - residency (which is two-pronged in and of itself) and if you win on residency, nonresident allocation.
Probably doesn't help you after the fact, but for others reading this, you really should hire a professional to handle this for you. There's a lot of incorrect information out there on blogs, etc that while not strictly incorrect, they can be read incorrectly by the "uninitiated".
It sounds like they *may* have agreed that you established domicile in NC in June (or whatever date). Similarly, it sounds like they *may* have agreed that you were not a statutory resident (which is actually pretty easy to prove if you abandoned and did not establish a new permanent place of abode as of June).
I say they seem to have agreed because residency is usually first, then they move to allocation, for obvious reasons. Since they're talking about your work location and bona fide employer office, which is an allocation issue, you can *maybe* forget about residency.
You do have to show that you are assigned to an office outside NY. Honestly, you probably screwed up when you gave them your home address.
All that said, find someone who can help who knows what they're doing. I've never dealt with an audit without an assigned auditor, and it's unclear from your posts what stage you're actually at, so I really have no idea where you go from here, other than to a tax professional familiar with these issues. It shouldn't be *that* complicated so you don't have to hire Hodgson and Russ or a firm like that, but just someone who has done this before.
I put some feelers out to find a tax attorney. Unfortunately no luck ( I even spoke to some lawyers friend but they had no leads for me). Does that lead me to just google NYS tax attorneys? THis is incredibly stressful for me, so I wanted to thank everyone for taking time out of their days to offers help and comments.
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
Thanks for that info. I am hoping it is a moot point though as my company only had a presence because I was there. Once I moved out of NY in June that presence disappeared as they didnt have an office there.Big Dog wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 3:52 pmFor out-of-area employees who worked from home, our former company used to print the employee's home address as their official Work Location in the offer letter, or transfer letter. And what I've read online, I believe that this is exactly what NY is questioning: whether your NC location is a "bona fide employer office" for purposes of income taxes. In other words, did you move for your convenience, or at the direction of your employer. A firmer letter from your HR department could probably clear this up: Dear Frugal: Effective June xx, 2020, your new work location is xxx, North Carolina. Your salary will remain the same. We will not reimburse you for relocation expenses.....It wasn't so much a relocation for work, as I have worked from home for the past 8 years , all of which is with this company. My companies letter explained that I was transferred to NC and that I am allowed to work out of NC, while the firm considers opening a NC office there. NYS was requesting that I provide a employment agreement to show what office I was assigned to. I guess their thinking was, since there is no office yet in NC, then I dont meet their requirements.
https://www.withum.com/wp-content/uploa ... r-Rule.pdf
https://www.twrblog.com/2020/10/bad-new ... -guidance/
Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
Do you have any property in NY?
Do you have school-age children?
This seems to be a pretty clean cut rom NYS unless as someone mentioned earlier, NYS thinks the employer has a presence in NY.
Do you have school-age children?
This seems to be a pretty clean cut rom NYS unless as someone mentioned earlier, NYS thinks the employer has a presence in NY.
Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
What is the amount of additional tax they're assessing? What is the letter you received actually titled? Is it a proposed assessment asking you to sign to agree? Or is it a Notice of Determination? If the latter, you are generally out of time for letters back and forth and you need to make a decision about whether to protest (which is different than just disagreeing with the proposed assessment).FrugalConservative wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 7:54 amInteresting thoughts. I was assigned an Auditor at NYS Dept of Tax and Finance right from the get go. She does not return my calls unfortunately. NYS initially requested additional info for my return ( two sperate requests). Recently they gave a notice that after a review of my return, and after they took into consideration all the information I provided them, has resulted in additional tax. I know have the option to disagree.hachiko wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 6:01 pm Almost all residency audits involve two things - residency (which is two-pronged in and of itself) and if you win on residency, nonresident allocation.
Probably doesn't help you after the fact, but for others reading this, you really should hire a professional to handle this for you. There's a lot of incorrect information out there on blogs, etc that while not strictly incorrect, they can be read incorrectly by the "uninitiated".
It sounds like they *may* have agreed that you established domicile in NC in June (or whatever date). Similarly, it sounds like they *may* have agreed that you were not a statutory resident (which is actually pretty easy to prove if you abandoned and did not establish a new permanent place of abode as of June).
I say they seem to have agreed because residency is usually first, then they move to allocation, for obvious reasons. Since they're talking about your work location and bona fide employer office, which is an allocation issue, you can *maybe* forget about residency.
You do have to show that you are assigned to an office outside NY. Honestly, you probably screwed up when you gave them your home address.
All that said, find someone who can help who knows what they're doing. I've never dealt with an audit without an assigned auditor, and it's unclear from your posts what stage you're actually at, so I really have no idea where you go from here, other than to a tax professional familiar with these issues. It shouldn't be *that* complicated so you don't have to hire Hodgson and Russ or a firm like that, but just someone who has done this before.
I put some feelers out to find a tax attorney. Unfortunately no luck ( I even spoke to some lawyers friend but they had no leads for me). Does that lead me to just google NYS tax attorneys? THis is incredibly stressful for me, so I wanted to thank everyone for taking time out of their days to offers help and comments.
We wouldn't ever just blindly send documents. We usually just have a friendly conversation with the auditor to open the case, discuss the scope, timeline, provide some basic documents, etc. If the auditor doesn't want to talk (which I've only seen once in my career by an auditor at the Dept), they don't get the documents, and they can explain to BCMS why they weren't willing to talk to the taxpayer. In reality, we would request a conference with the auditor's supervisor, which is supposed to be granted. However, I'm not sure whether this is only the procedure in "high touch" cases. But this isn't advice, since the stage you're currently at, or the type of audit you have, may necessitate a different approach.
Made money. Lost money. Learned to stop counting.
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
Amount of tax they are trying to caputure:hachiko wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:16 amWhat is the amount of additional tax they're assessing? What is the letter you received actually titled? Is it a proposed assessment asking you to sign to agree? Or is it a Notice of Determination? If the latter, you are generally out of time for letters back and forth and you need to make a decision about whether to protest (which is different than just disagreeing with the proposed assessment).FrugalConservative wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 7:54 amInteresting thoughts. I was assigned an Auditor at NYS Dept of Tax and Finance right from the get go. She does not return my calls unfortunately. NYS initially requested additional info for my return ( two sperate requests). Recently they gave a notice that after a review of my return, and after they took into consideration all the information I provided them, has resulted in additional tax. I know have the option to disagree.hachiko wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 6:01 pm Almost all residency audits involve two things - residency (which is two-pronged in and of itself) and if you win on residency, nonresident allocation.
Probably doesn't help you after the fact, but for others reading this, you really should hire a professional to handle this for you. There's a lot of incorrect information out there on blogs, etc that while not strictly incorrect, they can be read incorrectly by the "uninitiated".
It sounds like they *may* have agreed that you established domicile in NC in June (or whatever date). Similarly, it sounds like they *may* have agreed that you were not a statutory resident (which is actually pretty easy to prove if you abandoned and did not establish a new permanent place of abode as of June).
I say they seem to have agreed because residency is usually first, then they move to allocation, for obvious reasons. Since they're talking about your work location and bona fide employer office, which is an allocation issue, you can *maybe* forget about residency.
You do have to show that you are assigned to an office outside NY. Honestly, you probably screwed up when you gave them your home address.
All that said, find someone who can help who knows what they're doing. I've never dealt with an audit without an assigned auditor, and it's unclear from your posts what stage you're actually at, so I really have no idea where you go from here, other than to a tax professional familiar with these issues. It shouldn't be *that* complicated so you don't have to hire Hodgson and Russ or a firm like that, but just someone who has done this before.
I put some feelers out to find a tax attorney. Unfortunately no luck ( I even spoke to some lawyers friend but they had no leads for me). Does that lead me to just google NYS tax attorneys? THis is incredibly stressful for me, so I wanted to thank everyone for taking time out of their days to offers help and comments.
We wouldn't ever just blindly send documents. We usually just have a friendly conversation with the auditor to open the case, discuss the scope, timeline, provide some basic documents, etc. If the auditor doesn't want to talk (which I've only seen once in my career by an auditor at the Dept), they don't get the documents, and they can explain to BCMS why they weren't willing to talk to the taxpayer. In reality, we would request a conference with the auditor's supervisor, which is supposed to be granted. However, I'm not sure whether this is only the procedure in "high touch" cases. But this isn't advice, since the stage you're currently at, or the type of audit you have, may necessitate a different approach.
$22K
The letter
Titled: Statement of proposed audit change.
I have the option to pay or informally protest the notice. I can protest via online ( which I will do by uploading docs etc), Phone ( 716-855-5387 < Ive called this number so many times no luck) or by mail NYS Assesment Receivables PO Box 4128 Binghamton NY)
They state what happens next is they will review the information and notify me if successful or unsuccessful.
Regarding the Auditor:
I have called the auditor twice a day for the past two weeks. It goes straight to voicemail each and everytime. I leave a message and no return call. In addition I have called two other numbers and no one picks up, ever. Any tips on getting in touch with a supervisor?
Thanks for the reply!
Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
It is a black and white you have no ties to NY especially kids in school in NC in addition to everything else.FrugalConservative wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:28 amNo property, sold our home. All my children are in school in NC.
You have to write (again) and indicate you have ZERO association to NY. NC voters registration/NC drivers license/no NYS property/vehicles registered in NC/minor child enrolled in NC from a residency perspective. From an employer prospective, your employer does not have any presence in NY.
Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
OP, you might want to try contacting an Enrolled Agent that does IRS representation. https://www.naea.org/
Good luck in your search
Good luck in your search
Mary
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
Thanks Seawolfseawolf21 wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:44 amIt is a black and white you have no ties to NY especially kids in school in NC in addition to everything else.FrugalConservative wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:28 amNo property, sold our home. All my children are in school in NC.
You have to write (again) and indicate you have ZERO association to NY. NC voters registration/NC drivers license/no NYS property/vehicles registered in NC/minor child enrolled in NC from a residency perspective. From an employer prospective, your employer does not have any presence in NY.
Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
That was answered in the specifics, but doesn't seem to be NY's position that OP is still a resident, where that stuff is relevant. Rather:123 wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 3:34 pm Did you leave any lingering/trailing connections to NYS? Things like a driver's license, vehicle license, fishing/hunting license, library card, mailing address in NYS on bank/brokerage account/magazine subscription/etc/etc/etc. If NYS is grabbing at crumbs they will continue to do so until you clean up the crumbs.
"They state: your information does not establish your assigned primary work location is outside of New York State or show you have met the factors to prover your employer had established a bona fide employer office at your telecommuting location. Therefore , you owe New York state income tax on income earned while telecommuting."
It seems like they assume OP works for a NY entity and has not proved the 'assigned primary work location' is not that NY office of the company, so owes *non-resident* tax on NYS source income. Which makes it simple: show, convince, demonstrate the employer is not and hasn't ever been a NY entity, the income is not NY source income. Simple, though not easy if they won't engage in dialog.
Big picture, they are now trying to get tax revenue from a large number of non-residents who physically worked in the NY offices of various companies, shifted to remote related to COVID, and want to say their income is no longer NY source. There have been threads about this here, a person worked in a NY office, switches to remote, gets their company to reassign them on paper to the FL office. NY is naturally going to dispute this (I'm not saying who is 'right'). It would seem this is the net in which OP has also been entangled, without them yet realizing that's not the situation here.
Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
Email the auditor a link to this post on the forum
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
Thanks Jacko.JackoC wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:59 amThat was answered in the specifics, but doesn't seem to be NY's position that OP is still a resident, where that stuff is relevant. Rather:123 wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 3:34 pm Did you leave any lingering/trailing connections to NYS? Things like a driver's license, vehicle license, fishing/hunting license, library card, mailing address in NYS on bank/brokerage account/magazine subscription/etc/etc/etc. If NYS is grabbing at crumbs they will continue to do so until you clean up the crumbs.
"They state: your information does not establish your assigned primary work location is outside of New York State or show you have met the factors to prover your employer had established a bona fide employer office at your telecommuting location. Therefore , you owe New York state income tax on income earned while telecommuting."
It seems like they assume OP works for a NY entity and has not proved the 'assigned primary work location' is not that NY office of the company, so owes *non-resident* tax on NYS source income. Which makes it simple: show, convince, demonstrate the employer is not and hasn't ever been a NY entity, the income is not NY source income. Simple, though not easy if they won't engage in dialog.
Big picture, they are now trying to get tax revenue from a large number of non-residents who physically worked in the NY offices of various companies, shifted to remote related to COVID, and want to say their income is no longer NY source. There have been threads about this here, a person worked in a NY office, switches to remote, gets their company to reassign them on paper to the FL office. NY is naturally going to dispute this (I'm not saying who is 'right'). It would seem this is the net in which OP has also been entangled, without them yet realizing that's not the situation here.
Exactly. They believe I fall into your last paragraph. THe burden unfortunately is on me to prove that I dont.
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
I don't think you can assume that at all. The OP lived in NYS, the OP paid income taxes to NYS, and the OP moved out of NYS for OP's convenience (per NYS), and not the employer's directive. Hence, OP still owes NYS income tax. This is no different that all of those folks who lived in say, Manhattan, but worked for a NJ-based company; but during COVID lockdown, they moved to their parent's farm in Vermont. NYS is also contesting those folks too. Note, in this example, there is no company office in NYS. (My son lives in Manhattan and knows many of his friends who have decamped to covid-friendly locales. Not all worked for a company actually in NYS, but they are getting hit with a NYS income tax claim.)JackoC wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:59 amThat was answered in the specifics, but doesn't seem to be NY's position that OP is still a resident, where that stuff is relevant. Rather:123 wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 3:34 pm Did you leave any lingering/trailing connections to NYS? Things like a driver's license, vehicle license, fishing/hunting license, library card, mailing address in NYS on bank/brokerage account/magazine subscription/etc/etc/etc. If NYS is grabbing at crumbs they will continue to do so until you clean up the crumbs.
"They state: your information does not establish your assigned primary work location is outside of New York State or show you have met the factors to prover your employer had established a bona fide employer office at your telecommuting location. Therefore , you owe New York state income tax on income earned while telecommuting."
It seems like they assume OP works for a NY entity and has not proved the 'assigned primary work location' is not that NY office of the company, so owes *non-resident* tax on NYS source income. Which makes it simple: show, convince, demonstrate the employer is not and hasn't ever been a NY entity, the income is not NY source income. Simple, though not easy if they won't engage in dialog.
Big picture, they are now trying to get tax revenue from a large number of non-residents who physically worked in the NY offices of various companies, shifted to remote related to COVID, and want to say their income is no longer NY source. There have been threads about this here, a person worked in a NY office, switches to remote, gets their company to reassign them on paper to the FL office. NY is naturally going to dispute this (I'm not saying who is 'right'). It would seem this is the net in which OP has also been entangled, without them yet realizing that's not the situation here.
IMO, the simplest solution is for OP has to prove is that the move to NC was not for OP's convenience, but a bona fide work location change at the behest of the employer. Yes, OP can probably challenge -- and win -- in court, but that will take time and money.
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
My situation seems different then the example you used for NYers that left for farms and covid friendly areas. Mainly because they are still NY residents and subsequently owe NY tax even though they were telecommuniting from areas outside NY.Big Dog wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:42 amI don't think you can assume that at all. The OP lived in NYS, the OP paid income taxes to NYS, and the OP moved out of NYS for OP's convenience (per NYS), and not the employer's directive. Hence, OP still owes NYS income tax. This is no different that all of those folks who lived in say, Manhattan, but worked for a NJ-based company; but during COVID lockdown, they moved to their parent's farm in Vermont. NYS is also contesting those folks too. Note, in this example, there is no company office in NYS. (My son lives in Manhattan and knows many of his friends who have decamped to covid-friendly locales. Not all worked for a company actually in NYS, but they are getting hit with a NYS income tax claim.)JackoC wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:59 amThat was answered in the specifics, but doesn't seem to be NY's position that OP is still a resident, where that stuff is relevant. Rather:123 wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 3:34 pm Did you leave any lingering/trailing connections to NYS? Things like a driver's license, vehicle license, fishing/hunting license, library card, mailing address in NYS on bank/brokerage account/magazine subscription/etc/etc/etc. If NYS is grabbing at crumbs they will continue to do so until you clean up the crumbs.
"They state: your information does not establish your assigned primary work location is outside of New York State or show you have met the factors to prover your employer had established a bona fide employer office at your telecommuting location. Therefore , you owe New York state income tax on income earned while telecommuting."
It seems like they assume OP works for a NY entity and has not proved the 'assigned primary work location' is not that NY office of the company, so owes *non-resident* tax on NYS source income. Which makes it simple: show, convince, demonstrate the employer is not and hasn't ever been a NY entity, the income is not NY source income. Simple, though not easy if they won't engage in dialog.
Big picture, they are now trying to get tax revenue from a large number of non-residents who physically worked in the NY offices of various companies, shifted to remote related to COVID, and want to say their income is no longer NY source. There have been threads about this here, a person worked in a NY office, switches to remote, gets their company to reassign them on paper to the FL office. NY is naturally going to dispute this (I'm not saying who is 'right'). It would seem this is the net in which OP has also been entangled, without them yet realizing that's not the situation here.
IMO, the simplest solution is for OP has to prove is that the move to NC was not for OP's convenience, but a bona fide work location change at the behest of the employer. Yes, OP can probably challenge -- and win -- in court, but that will take time and money.
Where as with my situation, I moved out of NY for good as I sold my home ( therefore no longer a resident) and secondly my company isnt NY based. So the only thing that I can surmise is that NYS believes that I moved out of NY for convenience while telecommuting for a NY based firm. The only problem is, I'm telecommunting for a Florida based firm and not a NY firm, therefore I have no ties to NY, subsequently no tax liability. But honestly, that is my thinking and others on the board, who knows if NYS will budge even though it seems by not doing so they arent doing the right and legal thing.
Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
In your protest or appeal or whatever they call it, I would turn the tables on them. As they have stated "your information does not establish your assigned primary work location is outside of New York State", ask them to say where in New York State they think "your assigned primary work location" is. Since you've stated your employer has no presence in NYS, they won't be able to and will then hopefully realize you no longer have any ties to NYS.FrugalConservative wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 12:17 pm Fast forward to today. I received a notice that a review of my return has resulted in additional tax, penalty, or interest due. They state: your information does not establish your assigned primary work location is outside of New York State or show you have met the factors to prover your employer had established a bona fide employer office at your telecommuting location. Therefore , you owe New York state income tax on income earned while telecommuting.
Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
That's bcos you are thinking as a rational person, not a bureaucrat following the the bureaucrat rules: 'If anyone moves out of state for their own convenience, they are still subject to to income tax. Full stop.' (they need something to check-the-box that says the move was not for your convenience.')FrugalConservative wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:58 amMy situation seems different then the example you used for NYers that left for farms and covid friendly areas. Mainly because they are still NY residents and subsequently owe NY tax even though they were telecommuniting from areas outside NY.Big Dog wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:42 amI don't think you can assume that at all. The OP lived in NYS, the OP paid income taxes to NYS, and the OP moved out of NYS for OP's convenience (per NYS), and not the employer's directive. Hence, OP still owes NYS income tax. This is no different that all of those folks who lived in say, Manhattan, but worked for a NJ-based company; but during COVID lockdown, they moved to their parent's farm in Vermont. NYS is also contesting those folks too. Note, in this example, there is no company office in NYS. (My son lives in Manhattan and knows many of his friends who have decamped to covid-friendly locales. Not all worked for a company actually in NYS, but they are getting hit with a NYS income tax claim.)JackoC wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:59 amThat was answered in the specifics, but doesn't seem to be NY's position that OP is still a resident, where that stuff is relevant. Rather:123 wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 3:34 pm Did you leave any lingering/trailing connections to NYS? Things like a driver's license, vehicle license, fishing/hunting license, library card, mailing address in NYS on bank/brokerage account/magazine subscription/etc/etc/etc. If NYS is grabbing at crumbs they will continue to do so until you clean up the crumbs.
"They state: your information does not establish your assigned primary work location is outside of New York State or show you have met the factors to prover your employer had established a bona fide employer office at your telecommuting location. Therefore , you owe New York state income tax on income earned while telecommuting."
It seems like they assume OP works for a NY entity and has not proved the 'assigned primary work location' is not that NY office of the company, so owes *non-resident* tax on NYS source income. Which makes it simple: show, convince, demonstrate the employer is not and hasn't ever been a NY entity, the income is not NY source income. Simple, though not easy if they won't engage in dialog.
Big picture, they are now trying to get tax revenue from a large number of non-residents who physically worked in the NY offices of various companies, shifted to remote related to COVID, and want to say their income is no longer NY source. There have been threads about this here, a person worked in a NY office, switches to remote, gets their company to reassign them on paper to the FL office. NY is naturally going to dispute this (I'm not saying who is 'right'). It would seem this is the net in which OP has also been entangled, without them yet realizing that's not the situation here.
IMO, the simplest solution is for OP has to prove is that the move to NC was not for OP's convenience, but a bona fide work location change at the behest of the employer. Yes, OP can probably challenge -- and win -- in court, but that will take time and money.
Where as with my situation, I moved out of NY for good as I sold my home ( therefore no longer a resident) and secondly my company isnt NY based. So the only thing that I can surmise is that NYS believes that I moved out of NY for convenience while telecommuting for a NY based firm. The only problem is, I'm telecommunting for a Florida based firm and not a NY firm, therefore I have no ties to NY, subsequently no tax liability. But honestly, that is my thinking and others on the board, who knows if NYS will budge even though it seems by not doing so they arent doing the right and legal thing.
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
Yeah, if the standard Big Dog is bringing up is the correct one, then even providing NY with all the details will not settle this, as NY believes that they can tax you in your situation.Big Dog wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:32 amThat's bcos you are thinking as a rational person, not a bureaucrat following the the bureaucrat rules: 'If anyone moves out of state for their own convenience, they are still subject to to income tax. Full stop.' (they need something to check-the-box that says the move was not for your convenience.')FrugalConservative wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:58 am
My situation seems different then the example you used for NYers that left for farms and covid friendly areas. Mainly because they are still NY residents and subsequently owe NY tax even though they were telecommuniting from areas outside NY.
Where as with my situation, I moved out of NY for good as I sold my home ( therefore no longer a resident) and secondly my company isnt NY based. So the only thing that I can surmise is that NYS believes that I moved out of NY for convenience while telecommuting for a NY based firm. The only problem is, I'm telecommunting for a Florida based firm and not a NY firm, therefore I have no ties to NY, subsequently no tax liability. But honestly, that is my thinking and others on the board, who knows if NYS will budge even though it seems by not doing so they arent doing the right and legal thing.
Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
I think what you have to prove is that your company no longer has any nexus in the State of New York. By both you and your company no longer being there, then the ability to apply the convenience of the employer doctrine falls apart. You appear to have proven you are no longer in NY, but if your company still has nexus in NY, they will tax you as a commuter unless you can show your move was necessary for your employer under the convenience of the employer rule. By working at home, this is difficult.
More discussion here:
https://www.cpajournal.com/2021/02/12/pandemic-payroll/
More discussion here:
https://www.cpajournal.com/2021/02/12/pandemic-payroll/
Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
So how does NY handle all those retirees who move to Florida for their convenience?Big Dog wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:32 am
That's bcos you are thinking as a rational person, not a bureaucrat following the the bureaucrat rules: 'If anyone moves out of state for their own convenience, they are still subject to to income tax. Full stop.' (they need something to check-the-box that says the move was not for your convenience.')
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
I am having increasing difficulty comprehending this, and it started with considerable difficulty.Big Dog wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:32 amThat's bcos you are thinking as a rational person, not a bureaucrat following the the bureaucrat rules: 'If anyone moves out of state for their own convenience, they are still subject to to income tax. Full stop.' (they need something to check-the-box that says the move was not for your convenience.')FrugalConservative wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:58 amMy situation seems different then the example you used for NYers that left for farms and covid friendly areas. Mainly because they are still NY residents and subsequently owe NY tax even though they were telecommuniting from areas outside NY.Big Dog wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:42 amI don't think you can assume that at all. The OP lived in NYS, the OP paid income taxes to NYS, and the OP moved out of NYS for OP's convenience (per NYS), and not the employer's directive. Hence, OP still owes NYS income tax. This is no different that all of those folks who lived in say, Manhattan, but worked for a NJ-based company; but during COVID lockdown, they moved to their parent's farm in Vermont. NYS is also contesting those folks too. Note, in this example, there is no company office in NYS. (My son lives in Manhattan and knows many of his friends who have decamped to covid-friendly locales. Not all worked for a company actually in NYS, but they are getting hit with a NYS income tax claim.)JackoC wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:59 amThat was answered in the specifics, but doesn't seem to be NY's position that OP is still a resident, where that stuff is relevant. Rather:123 wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 3:34 pm Did you leave any lingering/trailing connections to NYS? Things like a driver's license, vehicle license, fishing/hunting license, library card, mailing address in NYS on bank/brokerage account/magazine subscription/etc/etc/etc. If NYS is grabbing at crumbs they will continue to do so until you clean up the crumbs.
"They state: your information does not establish your assigned primary work location is outside of New York State or show you have met the factors to prover your employer had established a bona fide employer office at your telecommuting location. Therefore , you owe New York state income tax on income earned while telecommuting."
It seems like they assume OP works for a NY entity and has not proved the 'assigned primary work location' is not that NY office of the company, so owes *non-resident* tax on NYS source income. Which makes it simple: show, convince, demonstrate the employer is not and hasn't ever been a NY entity, the income is not NY source income. Simple, though not easy if they won't engage in dialog.
Big picture, they are now trying to get tax revenue from a large number of non-residents who physically worked in the NY offices of various companies, shifted to remote related to COVID, and want to say their income is no longer NY source. There have been threads about this here, a person worked in a NY office, switches to remote, gets their company to reassign them on paper to the FL office. NY is naturally going to dispute this (I'm not saying who is 'right'). It would seem this is the net in which OP has also been entangled, without them yet realizing that's not the situation here.
IMO, the simplest solution is for OP has to prove is that the move to NC was not for OP's convenience, but a bona fide work location change at the behest of the employer. Yes, OP can probably challenge -- and win -- in court, but that will take time and money.
Where as with my situation, I moved out of NY for good as I sold my home ( therefore no longer a resident) and secondly my company isnt NY based. So the only thing that I can surmise is that NYS believes that I moved out of NY for convenience while telecommuting for a NY based firm. The only problem is, I'm telecommunting for a Florida based firm and not a NY firm, therefore I have no ties to NY, subsequently no tax liability. But honestly, that is my thinking and others on the board, who knows if NYS will budge even though it seems by not doing so they arent doing the right and legal thing.
Yes, yes, bureaucracy, non-rational, etc... but still... what about, er, reality?
This argument, taken to an extreme (ooops... NY auditors will probably read this; I'll change my name and not move to NY!)...
... someone moves after quitting a job. Or starting to consult instead. Or... gasp... someone retires (with taxable income) and moves to, oh, a nice warm climate like FL or even one of the Carolinas (!)... obviously for their own convenience.
They still must continue to pay NY taxes? Forever?
Doesn't there need to be *some* sort of ongoing link to NY?
RM
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Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
If it were me, I'd try one more time to get through to them and resolve it without an attorney. Maybe their tax office has a main number you can call and ask for help getting through to your auditor? And/or you can send them a certified letter summarizing your case and saying that you have no intention of paying until they tell you why they think you were a full-year resident. If all that fails, then I'd find an attorney or enrolled agent. Find someone who will at least give you a free consult before taking your case.
Re: NYS Audit Advice ( Moved out of State)
And as the employer has never had any NYS presence other than as your personal work location, your presence there was never for the employer’s convenience and therefore your move out of NYS does not need to be for your employer’s convenience.rooms222 wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:44 am I think what you have to prove is that your company no longer has any nexus in the State of New York. By both you and your company no longer being there, then the ability to apply the convenience of the employer doctrine falls apart. You appear to have proven you are no longer in NY, but if your company still has nexus in NY, they will tax you as a commuter unless you can show your move was necessary for your employer under the convenience of the employer rule. By working at home, this is difficult.