Help Needed w/Form 4797: Reporting Sale of Rental House

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iceport
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Help Needed w/Form 4797: Reporting Sale of Rental House

Post by iceport »

Dear Bogleheads,

We sold our rental house in January, and we are confused about how the sale and resulting capital gains will need to be reported on next year's tax return. Even with significant progress piecing this puzzle together, I'm stuck in a few places. Below are a list of points on which I would greatly appreciate some confirmation and/or clarification, along with any general insight you could provide. Please respond to any or all of the following individual items. (Item 4 is the most important question — greatest confusion/greatest significance.)

Thanks for your assistance!

1) The sale of this property is to be reported on Form 4797, in conjunction with Schedule D, including the Unrecaptured Section 1250 Gain Worksheet and the Schedule D Tax Worksheet. The Schedule D Tax Worksheet does the heavy lifting to figure the appropriate tax rates for various types of income and capital gains. It will tax unrecaptured Section 1250 gains (from depreciation) at the income tax rates (25% max.), and the rest of the gain at the capital gains rates.

Correct so far?

2) The total cost of the property was split into dwelling and land components using assessment data from a 1989 tax bill to estimate the "improvement ratio." Only the cost of the improved component of the property (house and shed) was used as the basis for depreciation, as land cannot be depreciated.

Is it necessary to use the same 1989 improvement ratio (82/18) to split the gross proceeds, or is it OK to estimate a different improvement ratio based on the 2021 assessment data (71/29) to split the proceeds? Legitimately changed market conditions might warrant the revision, but the decision won't affect the final results.

3) On Form 4797, the sale of the land component of the property is reported in Part I and the sale of the improved component of the property (dwelling/shed) in Part III. Closing costs are added to (or at least with) the cost bases of these assets. For simplicity, I would much rather just allocate all the transaction costs to only the dwelling component, knowing the arithmetic will shake out the same in the end either way.

For the cost basis entries, is it required to split the closing costs also, allocating a portion of those costs to the land and a portion to the dwelling? Or can all closing costs be allocated to the dwelling only?


4) Capitalized Water Heater: This is the biggest source of confusion.

Based on an absolutely wonderful example published by Iowa State University, it seems the water heater:
a) should be entered separately an an additional "property" in Part III; and
b) should be treated as Section 1245 property, with entries on Line 25.

Is that correct?

If so, that confuses my cost basis spreadsheet, because then the cost of the water heater doesn't technically get added to the cost basis of the dwelling; it stands alone as a separate entity for purposes of reporting the purchase, sale and depreciation. (We reported the water heater on Form 4562 when it was installed.) Is that correct?

Finally, what should we use for the gross sale price of the used appliance? In this case, the cost of the water heater has already been fully recovered by allowed depreciation.

Is it OK to use $0 as the sale price for the water heater? If not, how it its value determined?

Many, many thanks for any insight you could provide!
Last edited by iceport on Sun May 23, 2021 12:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: How to Report the Sale of Rental Real Estate?

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Anyone have experience with this?
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Re: How to Report the Sale of Rental Real Estate?

Post by galawdawg »

Have you read IRS Publication 544? https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p544.pdf

If you are having trouble figuring out to report the sale, including depreciation recapture, it may be wise to consult with a qualified professional tax preparer or CPA.
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Re: How to Report the Sale of Rental Real Estate?

Post by iceport »

galawdawg wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 11:05 am Have you read IRS Publication 544? https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p544.pdf

If you are having trouble figuring out to report the sale, including depreciation recapture, it may be wise to consult with a qualified professional tax preparer or CPA.
That's certainly still a possibility, galawdawg, but I'm hoping to figure out as much as possible on my own first. Have you reported the sale of rental real estate? Did you split the transaction into two parts, land and structure?

I understand clearly why the land doesn't get depreciated. But once the proper basis for depreciation is established, I don't understand why the two parts of the property have to be broken up into two theoretically independent sales for reporting purposes, if there will be gains all around, even when broken apart. There might be circumstances in which it's more advantageous to split them up — to realize a loss on the dwelling alone, for example — but that doesn't seem to apply to our circumstances.
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Re: How to Report the Sale of Rental Real Estate?

Post by galawdawg »

iceport wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 11:39 am
galawdawg wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 11:05 am Have you read IRS Publication 544? https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p544.pdf

If you are having trouble figuring out to report the sale, including depreciation recapture, it may be wise to consult with a qualified professional tax preparer or CPA.
That's certainly still a possibility, galawdawg, but I'm hoping to figure out as much as possible on my own first. Have you reported the sale of rental real estate? Did you split the transaction into two parts, land and structure?

I understand clearly why the land doesn't get depreciated. But once the proper basis for depreciation is established, I don't understand why the two parts of the property have to be broken up into two theoretically independent sales for reporting purposes, if there will be gains all around, even when broken apart. There might be circumstances in which it's more advantageous to split them up — to realize a loss on the dwelling alone, for example — but that doesn't seem to apply to our circumstances.
Yes, I've done that several times and yes, the sale of the land was reported in Part 1 and the building in Part III as required. The instructions for form 4797 are quite clear:
If you disposed of both depreciable property and other property (for example, a building and land) in the same transaction and realized a gain, you must allocate the amount realized between the two types of property based on their respective fair market values (FMVs) to figure the part of the gain to be recaptured as ordinary income because of depreciation. The disposition of each type of property is reported separately in the appropriate part of Form 4797 (for example, for property held more than 1 year, report the sale of a building in Part III and land in Part I).
So yes, the rental real estate must be correctly allocated between land and building. That should have been done when the property was acquired as the land is not depreciated. If the proper allocation was done when the property was acquired and depreciation properly taken and reported, the reporting of the sale on form 4797 should not be difficult.

If you'll just follow the instructions, you'll be fine! :beer
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Re: How to Report the Sale of Rental Real Estate?

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galawdawg wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 11:57 am Yes, I've done that several times and yes, the sale of the land was reported in Part 1 and the building in Part III as required. The instructions for form 4797 are quite clear:
If you disposed of both depreciable property and other property (for example, a building and land) in the same transaction and realized a gain, you must allocate the amount realized between the two types of property based on their respective fair market values (FMVs) to figure the part of the gain to be recaptured as ordinary income because of depreciation. The disposition of each type of property is reported separately in the appropriate part of Form 4797 (for example, for property held more than 1 year, report the sale of a building in Part III and land in Part I).
So yes, the rental real estate must be correctly allocated between land and building. That should have been done when the property was acquired as the land is not depreciated. If the proper allocation was done when the property was acquired and depreciation properly taken and reported, the reporting of the sale on form 4797 should not be difficult.

If you'll just follow the instructions, you'll be fine! :beer
Thanks galawdawg!

So we also paid a sales commission, attorney fees, and gave the seller a credit in conjunction with the transaction. Do those costs get split into the land and dwelling parts according to the improvement ratio (used to determine the land value alone), and added to their respective cost bases for determining the gains? Or do all the transaction costs get factored in to adjust only the cost basis of the dwelling, like the depreciation?
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Re: How to Report the Sale of Rental Real Estate?

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galawdawg wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 11:57 am So yes, the rental real estate must be correctly allocated between land and building. That should have been done when the property was acquired as the land is not depreciated. If the proper allocation was done when the property was acquired and depreciation properly taken and reported, the reporting of the sale on form 4797 should not be difficult.
Well, we read ahead far enough back in 2009 to split the property into land and improved components. We simply used a tax bill near the original purchase date to determine the ratio of dwelling-only to land-only, and came up with an 82/18 ratio, dwelling/land. Now in 2021, however, the municipality estimates the ratio to be 71/29.

Should we split the proceeds according to the improvement ratio as estimated in 1985 or in 2021 to allocate the proceeds between land and dwelling?
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Re: How to Report the Sale of Rental Real Estate?

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<deleted>
Last edited by iceport on Sat May 22, 2021 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Help Needed w/Form 4797: Reporting Sale of Rental House

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<duplicate>
Last edited by iceport on Sat May 22, 2021 5:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Help Needed w/Form 4797: Reporting Sale of Rental House (●︿●)

Post by Flyer24 »

Sorry for the mixup. You had a duplicate and somehow they both vanished. Here is your restored post.

Update. Your thread has been merged with your previous discussion. It is best to continue in one thread rather than start a new one.
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Re: Help Needed w/Form 4797: Reporting Sale of Rental House (●︿●)

Post by iceport »

Flyer24 wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 5:07 pm Sorry for the mixup. You had a duplicate and somehow they both vanished. Here is your restored post.
Oooohhhh! That's what you meant by duplicate. Now I get it!

The thing is, I wanted to ignore my first post on this topic, as my understanding has evolved greatly since then, and my ham-handed first attempt at asking coherent questions is outdated now. And I thought the more narrowly focused questions might be easier for folks to answer.

No worries, I'll just edit the OP.

Sorry for all the fuss.
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Re: Help Needed w/Form 4797: Reporting Sale of Rental House

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iceport wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 1:33 pm Is it necessary to use the same 1989 improvement ratio (82/18) to split the gross proceeds, or is it OK to estimate a different improvement ratio based on the 2021 assessment data (71/29) to split the proceeds? Legitimately changed market conditions might warrant the revision, but the decision won't affect the final results.
You could be overthinking this. Since it doesn't change the results I don't see why you wouldn't use the original ratio.

I think the water heater has some value. I'm not recommending you do this, but I would probably assume a 12 year actual life (assuming it's not that old) and assign a value based on the estimated installed cost of a new WH with a 12 year warranty. If that cost is $1200 and your WH has been in service for 9 years, I'd say its value is (12-9)/12 * 1200 = $300. Another option is to see if there are used WHs for sale in your area.

Don't forget to remove whatever value you assign to the WH from the dwelling proceeds.
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Re: Help Needed w/Form 4797: Reporting Sale of Rental House

Post by EdNorton »

You don't split your selling price price between the house and the land. Your basis is original purchase price plus improvements less depreciation. Your gain is selling price less selling expenses less your basis. Part of that gain will be depreciation recapture.

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Re: Help Needed w/Form 4797: Reporting Sale of Rental House

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Chip wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 7:05 am
iceport wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 1:33 pm Is it necessary to use the same 1989 improvement ratio (82/18) to split the gross proceeds, or is it OK to estimate a different improvement ratio based on the 2021 assessment data (71/29) to split the proceeds? Legitimately changed market conditions might warrant the revision, but the decision won't affect the final results.
You could be overthinking this. Since it doesn't change the results I don't see why you wouldn't use the original ratio.
Thanks for the reply, Chip!

I must admit, I'm a little torn over where to put entries and where to assign costs and proceeds in general. Why? Precisely because of your observation: it doesn't change the results either way. In fact, there are probably a dozen different ways we could fill out Form 4797 and — at least in our case — it all comes out the same in the end! If that's the case, how much does *any* of this really matter? If we use one of the 11 "wrong" methods, but the tax is exactly correct in the end, will the IRS really care?

So to your specific question here, it's just a matter of thinking about the transaction objectively and realizing the general area is well along into a long, slow but significant economic and cultural revitalization, so the land might indeed be worth significantly more now than 35 years ago, relative to the house, which is now something like 80 years old. (In fact, that Iowa State example illustrates an extreme case of the same concept, reporting the sale of a "knock-down".) But you are correct — it doesn't matter. I'd just be choosing to send more gain to land or house, and it all adds up to the same total on Line 7.
Chip wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 7:05 am I think the water heater has some value. I'm not recommending you do this, but I would probably assume a 12 year actual life (assuming it's not that old) and assign a value based on the estimated installed cost of a new WH with a 12 year warranty. If that cost is $1200 and your WH has been in service for 9 years, I'd say its value is (12-9)/12 * 1200 = $300. Another option is to see if there are used WHs for sale in your area.

Don't forget to remove whatever value you assign to the WH from the dwelling proceeds.
We could assign a value to the water heater. But doesn't the same question from above apply? Whatever "gain" we show for selling a used water heater comes out of the gain for the rest of the property. It would really complicate the spreadsheet I'm using to sort out the cost basis and depreciation for everything, that's all. And for what?

If you're saying you think the IRS cares, that's another matter. If they care, I'll try to accommodate their preference. But would they really care?

Chip, what about the rest of the question... Do you agree that the water heater goes on a separate entry on Line 19? And then the water heater depreciation would be kept completely separate from the house depreciation? It's basically a stand-alone entry on the form?
Last edited by iceport on Sun May 23, 2021 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help Needed w/Form 4797: Reporting Sale of Rental House

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EdNorton wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 10:20 am You don't split your selling price price between the house and the land. Your basis is original purchase price plus improvements less depreciation. Your gain is selling price less selling expenses less your basis. Part of that gain will be depreciation recapture.

:sharebeer
I like your thinking, EdNorton!!! That was my first choice!

Just to be clear, are you saying to simply report everything in Part III and be done with it?

It all comes out the same in the wash...
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Re: Help Needed w/Form 4797: Reporting Sale of Rental House

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iceport wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 12:16 pm We could assign a value to the water heater. But doesn't the same question from above apply? Whatever "gain" we show for selling a used water heater comes out of the gain for the rest of the property. It would really complicate the spreadsheet I'm using to sort out the cost basis and depreciation for everything, that's all. And for what?
I'm not at all sure, but I believe that the tax rate for recapture of Section 1245 property depreciation isn't limited to 25%, as it is for Section 1250 property. May or may not be an issue for you.
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Re: Help Needed w/Form 4797: Reporting Sale of Rental House

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Chip wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 3:29 pm
iceport wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 12:16 pm We could assign a value to the water heater. But doesn't the same question from above apply? Whatever "gain" we show for selling a used water heater comes out of the gain for the rest of the property. It would really complicate the spreadsheet I'm using to sort out the cost basis and depreciation for everything, that's all. And for what?
I'm not at all sure, but I believe that the tax rate for recapture of Section 1245 property depreciation isn't limited to 25%, as it is for Section 1250 property. May or may not be an issue for you.
You may well be right, but I don't believe it will affect us. The 7-year-old water heater has already been fully depreciated in a 5-year 200% DB depreciation recovery period. So my understanding is that all of that depreciation is allowed, because the total sum is the same as if the straight-line method were used. (That test applies to Section 1250 property on Line 26, not sure if it does for Section 1245 property on Line 25.)

So technically, we will have *no* depreciation recapture. The depreciation shows up as "unrecaptured Section 1250 gains" on the Unrecaptured Section 1250 Gain Worksheet for Line 19 of Schedule D. As such, it's taxed at a maximum of 25% on the Sched. D Tax Worksheet. At least that's what my reading has led me to believe...

Or are you saying that all changes if we show a profit on Line 24 for the water heater, and it shows up on Line 25 for Section 1245 property, then we *would* have a small recapture amount? That would be all the more reason for zeroing out the value of the appliance. Technically, isn't that what the 5-year recovery period assumes? That the value is negligible after 5 years?

~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

All that said, I just ran the software with a sale price of $100 for the water heater, and $100 less for the house, and it does change the tax due by a small amount. I haven't figured out why yet.

The $100 water heater value turns $100 from the gains in Part I (Line 6) of 4797 into $100 of gain in Part II. Then the $100 gets added to Schedule 1, and then to Line 8 of 1040, Other income. Line 7 of 1040, Capital Gain, is reduced by $100. Total taxable income (line 15) stays the same. At first glance, I would expect that to raise my taxes, not lower them. I'll have to study the Sched. D Tax Worksheet.
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Re: Help Needed w/Form 4797: Reporting Sale of Rental House

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1245 depreciation is recaptured at ordinary income rates. I would argue that the water heater is attached, not personal property ( or else zero value if fully depreciated). What is the FMV of a used water heater?
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Re: Help Needed w/Form 4797: Reporting Sale of Rental House

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EdNorton wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 6:00 am 1245 depreciation is recaptured at ordinary income rates. I would argue that the water heater is attached, not personal property ( or else zero value if fully depreciated). What is the FMV of a used water heater?
Exactly. I wouldn't pay $1 for a 7 year old water heater.

And I do agree with you that it makes more sense to treat the water heater as part of the house than to treat it as a separate item sold, just coincidentally, on the same day and in the same transaction as the sale of the house. The explanation I keep reading is that the depreciation for the water heater uses a different method, recovery period and basis than the house, so it must be reported separately. I don't understand why all of that can't be true, so that the depreciation must be calculated separately, but then just added each year to the annual depreciation for the house, and reported altogether on Form 4797 in the same entry. Maybe that would mess up the tests for depreciation recapture?

(For that matter, it seems a stretch to me to capitalize something as small as a $700 water heater in the first place, but I guess I'd look at it differently if I ran an apartment building and I was replacing dozens of them at a time.)
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Re: Help Needed w/Form 4797: Reporting Sale of Rental House

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iceport wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 3:49 pm ~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

All that said, I just ran the software with a sale price of $100 for the water heater, and $100 less for the house, and it does change the tax due by a small amount. I haven't figured out why yet.

The $100 water heater value turns $100 from the gains in Part I (Line 6) of 4797 into $100 of gain in Part II. Then the $100 gets added to Schedule 1, and then to Line 8 of 1040, Other income. Line 7 of 1040, Capital Gain, is reduced by $100. Total taxable income (line 15) stays the same. At first glance, I would expect that to raise my taxes, not lower them. I'll have to study the Sched. D Tax Worksheet.
Mystery solved: I just transposed the results. The $100 water heater does increase the tax due, by $7. I'm in the 22% income tax bracket, 15% capital gains bracket, so that checks out: (22%-15%) * $100 = $7.

On my Sched. D Tax Worksheet for this year, all my regular income is taxed at 22%, and all capital gains are taxed at 15%.

Capital Gains = qualified dividends + Sched. D gains — depreciation. All the rest becomes regular income.

No surprises there. Now it's just a matter of figuring out the correct figures to report and the correct places to report them...
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Re: Unexpected Benefit of Capital Losses when Reporting Sale of Rental House

Post by iceport »

Thanks to those who responded to these questions last year. With your help, I think I'm all clear on a practical and acceptable method of reporting this sale.

Another resource that I found extremely helpful, as a complete novice in reporting the sale of a rental property, was the Center for Agricultural Law and Taxation at Iowa State University, of all places.

Center for Agricultural Law and Taxation/Search TaxPlace Library/keywords: 4797

Webinar Replay - Form 4797 - Sale of a Business Asset

~~~~~~~~~~

Role of Carryover Capital Losses

Last year I ran through the numbers using a dummy tax return with 2020 tax software, but now that I'm working on my real tax return for 2021, I was pleasantly surprised to learn that the small amount of carryover losses I had from 2020 will serve to reduce the unrecaptured Section 1250 gains. Those gains, which account for previously claimed (or claimable) depreciation of the asset, are taxed at income tax rates, not capital gains tax rates.

However, for some reason that I don't quite get, on the Unrecaptured Section 1250 Gain Worksheet for Schedule D, carryover capital losses are used to offset unrecaptured Section 1250 gains *first*.

Consequently, the carryover losses turn gains taxed at my income tax rate of 22% into gains taxed at my capital gains tax rate of 15%.

There are still excess capital gains left on the sale of the rental house, but the worksheet specifically directs the carryover losses to offset the "unrecaptured" part of the gains first. As I said, I don't know the theoretical basis for this. If the intent of the unrecaptured Section 1250 gain tax provision is to offset the benefit of previously used depreciation allowances, I don't really get why the capital loss carryover doesn't just get applied to any other capital gains first. But it's a small unexpected tax break that I'll gladly take!

Add one more potential benefit of tax-loss harvesting to the list:

Turning unrecaptured Section 1250 gains taxed at income tax rates into gains taxed at capital gains tax rates upon the sale of a business asset.
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