How many professional advisors required ?

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SwissCoffee
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How many professional advisors required ?

Post by SwissCoffee »

Hi

Along the theme of simplicity & sustainability, my question is - how many professional, financial advisors should I hire given my need to address the below:
1) Without sage advice, a single mistake can cost more than years of professional fees, BTDT.
2) Most advisors offer only a partial solution, for example Vanguard Advisor Svcs only advises on investments held at VG and won't advise on outside investments or tax matters.
3) Tax accountants are mostly focused on filing the current returns based on the current data and not on future years tax strategy for saving money.
4) Aging, financial need and taxation requirements are predictable, even investing can be predictable in terms of worst-case or avg-case returns
5) Most people have some unique combination of assets and circumstances but all of these are addressed by 4)
6) Optimization of these four subjects is too complex for a layman such as myself: aging, financial need, taxation, investing

Its probably naive but I wish there existed a reliable source (software or human) that could take in my personal information and produce a strategic, optimized plan that reflects:
  • applicable tax laws
  • common, simple investment strategy (3 fund , 60/40 etc)
  • avoiding costly financial mistakes
Small financial mistakes and missed opportunities are ok but big mistakes, missed opportunities and lots of time doing finance & tax research is not ok.
Im dreaming , right ?
Bogle64Pilot
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Re: How many professional advisors required ?

Post by Bogle64Pilot »

Personally I just roll with my estate planning attorney, a tax attorney (LL.M), and a CPA. The LL.M and CPA are in the same office.
hachiko
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Re: How many professional advisors required ?

Post by hachiko »

The way I've seen most complex relationships start is with an estate or family attorney (not family law, but a more general practice attorney, usually with a solid background in corporate law, that handles almost all the family's legal matters) reaching out to or recommending a tax professional. Sometimes that tax professional works with another tax professional for more complex matters (I've seen this go from someone credentialed as an attorney to someone credentialed as a CPA or the other way around). Most of these professionals oversee filing of returns in the sense that they own the client relationship, but are generally more focused on planning and advisory with other people in the office actually preparing the returns.

So my advice is to start with the estate planning attorney and they can help you figure out what you need.

I find it pretty rare for an individual to require both a tax attorney and a CPA. And at the top levels of each designation, I find the designation is not particularly relevant. CPAs can be as good at interpreting the law as tax attorneys and tax attorneys can be as good at calculations as CPAs. In my view (as an attorney and not a CPA), a CPA can provide significant benefit to a business in terms of assisting with the financials. So if you're trying to decide between a tax attorney and CPA, I would start with a CPA.

I would also add, none of these professionals are going to give investment advice. So you would also need someone to advise you on that. That's generally a separate relationship though.
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Watty
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Re: How many professional advisors required ?

Post by Watty »

If you have some special situation like you own a business, lots of investment property, or have a very high net worth that makes your investments inherently complex so that you really need a lot of help it would be good to mention that.

Likewise if you do not have anyone like responsible kids that can manage your finances when you can't then and you are trying to set up a team of people to manage your finances when you are unable to that is also a special situation that would be good to mention.
SwissCoffee wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 8:29 am 1) Without sage advice, a single mistake can cost more than years of professional fees, BTDT.
One approach is to have most of your investments in straightforward index funds so that you do not need sage advice to manage it.

You may be asking the wrong question. Instead of asking "How many advisors do you need to manage your complex investments?" you might want to ask "How do I simplify my investments so that I do not need a lot of advisors to manage it?"

One problem to watch out for is some financial advisors is that they will try to put the money into some complex set of investments so that you will need to keep using a financial advisor in the future because it is so complex. This helps them retain clients.

I really think most people without an eight figure net worth can get by with;

1) An Estate planning lawyer that they see periodically to update their plans. If your net worth is not getting close to being large enough to trigger federal or state estate taxes you may not need this except to keep your will and related paperwork up to date.

2) An accountant to do your taxes if you can't, or do not want, to do them yourself.

3) Vanguard PAS to manage your investments if you cannot manage a three fund portfolio yourself.

In addition to the cost one huge problem with having lots of advisors is even if you get a good team set up that you are happy with the advisors will eventually retire, change jobs, or die and you will need to find replacements which may be difficult when you are 80+ years old and in assisted living. That is one of the reasons that it is good to simplify your investments as much as possible.
clemrick
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Re: How many professional advisors required ?

Post by clemrick »

A good Enrolled Agent can do your taxes and tax planning. You can find list here: https://www.naea.org/ Make sure you interview them. My parents had an idiot EA.
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Stinky
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Re: How many professional advisors required ?

Post by Stinky »

Watty wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:28 am One approach is to have most of your investments in straightforward index funds so that you do not need sage advice to manage it.

You may be asking the wrong question. Instead of asking "How many advisors do you need to manage your complex investments?" you might want to ask "How do I simplify my investments so that I do not need a lot of advisors to manage it?"
This is absolutely excellent advice.

I know folks with a low eight figure portfolio who are invested in just a handful of equity and fixed income index funds. It doesn't need to be complex, even at relatively higher levels of assets.
Retired life insurance company financial executive who sincerely believes that ”It’s a GREAT day to be alive!”
Topic Author
SwissCoffee
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Re: How many professional advisors required ?

Post by SwissCoffee »

Thanks for your comments, I think my issue is less with investing and more with taxation.

I am in total agreement with the advice to simplify and consolidate financial assets into a few funds in a single company such as Vanguard.
Such an investment strategy is exactly what I can manage and so could my family should I no longer be able to .
But, as I approach the retirement years things seem to be getting more complex. There seem to be multiple financial issues that require special consideration, such as:
- Asset consolidation will require sale of assets and subsequent capital gains and loses, how to best handle these sales?
- Required distributions from traditional IRA's - how much are we talking about in terms of income to report?
- RMD and Social Security income - what is going to hit me and how to minimize the taxes owed?
- Conversion of tradition IRA's to Roth - can I or should I ?
- Sale of investment property and consolidate the money into the above 3-funds, all with the goal of simplification - what taxes are owed ?
- "Back door Roth"... what the heck is that?
- etc

When I inquired with the medium sized firm that does my taxes, I was surprised that they didn't say "Oh yes, we have such a service that will create a personalized financial plan that will consolidate and optimize your finances, reduce your taxes and simplify your life...".
Perhaps I need to ask them again after the tax season quiets down, I'd have thought they should be able to do this .
hachiko
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Re: How many professional advisors required ?

Post by hachiko »

clemrick wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:47 am A good Enrolled Agent can do your taxes and tax planning. You can find list here: https://www.naea.org/ Make sure you interview them. My parents had an idiot EA.
Most of the good EAs I know are really more focused on resolving issues with the IRS that other professionals can't resolve. The "get sh*t done" professionals. Like getting the IRS to process an "uncheck the box" election for a limited partnership to be treated as a DRE.

A specific credential also doesn't make a good professional. Don't hire someone just because they possess a credential, and don't dismiss someone just because they don't possess a specific credential (except maybe in matters that could turn criminal).

And comparing CPA, attorney, and EA, generally, I'd say an EA often has the least experience in tax planning and structuring.
Made money. Lost money. Learned to stop counting.
afan
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Re: How many professional advisors required ?

Post by afan »

None of those questions require a tax lawyer. You would only need their help if the issues were so complicated that a good accountant or EA could not figure them out. Or, more likely for most individuals, the IRS was demanding a big payment or accusing you of tax fraud.

Most highly successful people go through their entire lives without ever consulting a tax attorney. If your finances are truly so complicated that you need regular service from a tax lawyer, you prob should simplify in anticipation of becoming more hands off in the future.

All of your questions are routine and most people handle them on their own. You can get advice here for free.

If you really want help or not to do it yourself, then an accountant or EA can walk you through it.

You probably need an estates and trusts lawyer for estate planning.

If you want general financial advice, then try an adviser who charges only hourly fees. Does not manage assets. Does not sell anything other than advice.

Vanguard PAS will create and maintain a reasonable portfolio. As far as I can tell, that is all they will do. I would not go to them for financial advice.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
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celia
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Re: How many professional advisors required ?

Post by celia »

SwissCoffee wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 8:29 am Along the theme of simplicity & sustainability, my question is - how many professional, financial advisors should I hire given my need to address the below:
1) Without sage advice, a single mistake can cost more than years of professional fees, BTDT.
....

Its probably naive but I wish there existed a reliable source (software or human) that could take in my personal information and produce a strategic, optimized plan that reflects:
  • applicable tax laws
  • common, simple investment strategy (3 fund , 60/40 etc)
  • avoiding costly financial mistakes
Small financial mistakes and missed opportunities are ok but big mistakes, missed opportunities and lots of time doing finance & tax research is not ok.
Im dreaming , right ?
I'm curious as to what you consider a "big mistake", especially those you've experienced. I'll bet some/most of them are due to only looking at a short/long-term goal or a different way of looking at things, which isn't necessarily right or wrong.


To answer your question as to how many "advisors" you need, it depends on what you already know and are willing to do yourself and if you are able to realize what you need to know, but don't yet know. For example, are you willing to learn enough to prepare your own tax returns? Will your return be as good as (or better than) what a pro produces? (We can even disagree on what that means, which is not the point of this thread, because some of it is how you choose a pro, which can really be "the mistake".)

I think Bogleheads is good for many situations as we each look at a problem from different perspectives and experiences. And we tell you when you need to see a pro. :D
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Stinky
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Re: How many professional advisors required ?

Post by Stinky »

celia wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:36 pm To answer your question as to how many "advisors" you need, it depends on what you already know and are willing to do yourself and if you are able to realize what you need to know, but don't yet know.

I think Bogleheads is good for many situations as we each look at a problem from different perspectives and experiences. And we tell you when you need to see a pro. :D
This is good advice. You can post your portfolio on this Forum, and get advice from the many folks here who likely will chime in. Many of us have already navigated the challenges that you’re facing.

If you want to get input from others, please use this format:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6212

And to get the most response, I suggest that you (1) edit your first post in this thread to include the portfolio information and pose your questions, and (2) change the thread title to something like “Portfolio Review Needed - Lots of Questions”. (If you need help in figuring all of that out, just post back).

You may not get answers to everything you’re interested in figuring out this way. But I expect that you’ll make a LOT of progress.
Retired life insurance company financial executive who sincerely believes that ”It’s a GREAT day to be alive!”
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celia
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Re: How many professional advisors required ?

Post by celia »

Stinky wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:45 pm If you want to get input from others, please use this format:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6212

And to get the most response, I suggest that you (1) edit your first post in this thread to include the portfolio information and pose your questions, and (2) change the thread title to something like “Portfolio Review Needed - Lots of Questions”. (If you need help in figuring all of that out, just post back).

You may not get answers to everything you’re interested in figuring out this way. But I expect that you’ll make a LOT of progress.
Since this post is the 12th post in this thread and new readers may be confused if the original post is updated as suggested, to be a portfolio review, I would prefer that that this thread remain on the topic "when you need an advisor and how many". The OP should start a new thread for his/her individual portfolio review.

------------------------------
OP, to better address the original topic of "how many advisors", can you tell us what you wish you had known earlier that would have prevented the "big mistakes" you had. Maybe we can all learn from that. Or maybe, it wasn't as bad as you are thinking.
Last edited by celia on Sat May 15, 2021 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Stinky
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Re: How many professional advisors required ?

Post by Stinky »

celia wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:18 pm
Stinky wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:45 pm If you want to get input from others, please use this format:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6212

And to get the most response, I suggest that you (1) edit your first post in this thread to include the portfolio information and pose your questions, and (2) change the thread title to something like “Portfolio Review Needed - Lots of Questions”. (If you need help in figuring all of that out, just post back).

You may not get answers to everything you’re interested in figuring out this way. But I expect that you’ll make a LOT of progress.
Since this post is the 12th post in this thread and new readers may be confused if the original post is updated as suggested to be a portfolio review, I would prefer that that this thread remain on the topic "when you need an advisor" and how many advisors. The OP should start a new thread for his/her individual portfolio review.
Agreed. That’s a better approach.
Retired life insurance company financial executive who sincerely believes that ”It’s a GREAT day to be alive!”
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Lee_WSP
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Re: How many professional advisors required ?

Post by Lee_WSP »

I am very biased, but I feel that other estate planning attorneys should be able to advise you on those issues minus the tax prep. However, there are a few major obstacles to that.

First, most aren't actually familiar with retirement issues. Second we're not authorized to give non incidental investment advice.
humblecoder
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Re: How many professional advisors required ?

Post by humblecoder »

SwissCoffee wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:29 pm - Asset consolidation will require sale of assets and subsequent capital gains and loses, how to best handle these sales?

These articles can give you some general ideas. Obviously, without specifics, it is hard to provide more concrete guidance. That said, a CPA should be able to help you out with this.
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax_loss_harvesting
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax_gain_harvesting


- Required distributions from traditional IRA's - how much are we talking about in terms of income to report?

This is a simple math problem. Based upon your age, some % of your IRA is required to be distributed. You pay ordinary income tax on that distribution.

- RMD and Social Security income - what is going to hit me and how to minimize the taxes owed?

Again, at some level, this is a simple math problem as well - the same as above. The general ways to minimize taxes are to reduce your Traditional IRA holdings prior to reaching your RMS age through Roth conversions.

- Conversion of tradition IRA's to Roth - can I or should I ?

Perhaps. This is a complex area that requires some modeling to see whether you would be better off converting or not. There are free tools to help in this area (https://www.i-orp.com/Plans/index.html being one of the more popular ones). A good financial planner can also help with this.

- Sale of investment property and consolidate the money into the above 3-funds, all with the goal of simplification - what taxes are owed ?

This feels like a question for a tax accountant to me.

- "Back door Roth"... what the heck is that?

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Backdoor_Roth

- etc
Like others have mentioned, this message board is a good resource to get some layperson guidance. The folks here are usually good about saying "this is too complex for us; talk to a professional"

My personal philosophy is that the person that I trust best when it comes to finance is myself. I have heard of too many horror stories with people get bad advice from a professional who has some agenda. To that end, I have taken it upon myself to learn as much as can.

Before I found this message board, I thought I was pretty knowledgable. However, after spending some time here, I have realized how much I don't know. This board truly is a master class when it comes to personal finance and investing. I have learned so much that I can put into practice and carry with me as I enter retirement in a few years. The good news is that I have generally followed the basic BH principles without even knowing it (live beneath your means, save aggressively, index funds, stay the course no matter what happens day-to-day in the market, etc). What I have learned here, though, has helped to refine that knowledge.
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Re: How many professional advisors required ?

Post by tibbitts »

celia wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:36 pm I'm curious as to what you consider a "big mistake", especially those you've experienced. I'll bet some/most of them are due to only looking at a short/long-term goal or a different way of looking at things, which isn't necessarily right or wrong.
Not the OP, but for me a big mistake (at least to the extent of costing tens of thousands of dollars) was not paying attention to RMDs early enough. I knew the rules for RMDs; it just didn't register that I wouldn't be able to dig my way out of excessive RMDs using Roth conversions until it was too late. Quite possibly if someone else had asked me about their similar situation, I would have identified the problem, but I just didn't think about it for myself. I still can't explain how that happened. I knew the rules for RMDs; I knew the tax rates; I knew about tools for projecting RMDs. Of course I didn't ask anyone else for suggestions because I didn't have any questions or doubts about what I was doing. I will admit I didn't know about the IRMAA two-year lookback, which I only learned about a few years before it would apply to me, but that was/is only a tiny part of the problem. There is of course no precise answer to how much to accumulate in deferred, etc., but there's a range of reasonable that I wandered outside of.

So I think just having someone looking at your situation, not necessarily more knowledgeable or only looking because you have a specific question, could be useful. On the other hand, finding an appropriate person would be problematic.
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SwissCoffee
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Re: How many professional advisors required ?

Post by SwissCoffee »

The big mistake I made was in the late 1990's and I was using an accountant to help me with my S-corp and personal taxes. When the matter of stocks held in a foreign country came up, his response was "The IRS only knows what you tell them, if you've never reported foreign assets , don't start now". At the time this sounded reasonable especially since I was both reporting the dividends and paying taxes to the foreign tax authority. Then the Patriot Act was passed whereupon the IRS became much stricter and mandated that US taxpayers must report ALL foreign held assets over $10k. Failure to report these assets could result in a penalty of up to 50% of the asset, I dont think this was widely known, it certainly didn't register with me at the time. For years 2002-2015 I had gone back to doing my own taxes and whenever I got to that part where they ask about foreign assets , I just remembered the accountant's famous works "The IRS only knows...". One day I read about some unfortunate person who got hammered by the IRS for not reporting foreign assets, at that point I started to sweat and started my search for a reliable tax accounting firm that knew about FBAR (foreign bank and financial reporting). Long story short, I had to pay a CPA firm to re-file at least 7 previous years of taxes, pay penalties and interest and hope that the IRS would accept that I wasn't a criminal, which they did. In the end it was an unnecessary expense of $34k . To me that was a big mistake especially since it could have been worse had the IRS decided to throw the full 50% penalty at me. When I later spoke to the original accountant and told him about my trouble and repeated his words back to him, he said "ohhh that was BEFORE the Patriot Act, after the PA foreign assets became a whole different ball game". Live and learn.

Except for the above, I always did my own taxes but after that experience, I decided that it is just too risky to prepare my taxes alone without someone knowledgeable and experienced. On the other hand, just collecting the data and handing it over to the CPA seems like 80% of the task. Entering the data and seeing it appear on the forms was the fun part which I always found quite satisfying.
bsteiner
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Re: How many professional advisors required ?

Post by bsteiner »

hachiko wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 9:14 am ... CPAs can be as good at interpreting the law as tax attorneys ....
I think lawyers are better at interpreting the law than nonlawyers.
SwissCoffee wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:29 pm ...
There seem to be multiple financial issues that require special consideration, such as:
...
Conversion of tradition IRA's to Roth - can I or should I ?
...
When I inquired with the medium sized firm that does my taxes, I was surprised that they didn't say "Oh yes, we have such a service that will create a personalized financial plan that will consolidate and optimize your finances, reduce your taxes and simplify your life...".
Perhaps I need to ask them again after the tax season quiets down, I'd have thought they should be able to do this .
Roth IRAs have existed for more than 20 years. I and others speak and write about them frequently. I continue to be surprised at how few accountants understand Roth conversions.
SwissCoffee wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 9:11 pm The big mistake I made was in the late 1990's and I was using an accountant to help me with my S-corp and personal taxes. When the matter of stocks held in a foreign country came up, his response was "The IRS only knows what you tell them, if you've never reported foreign assets , don't start now". At the time this sounded reasonable especially since I was both reporting the dividends and paying taxes to the foreign tax authority. Then the Patriot Act was passed whereupon the IRS became much stricter and mandated that US taxpayers must report ALL foreign held assets over $10k. Failure to report these assets could result in a penalty of up to 50% of the asset, I don't think this was widely known, it certainly didn't register with me at the time. For years 2002-2015 I had gone back to doing my own taxes and whenever I got to that part where they ask about foreign assets, I just remembered the accountant's famous works "The IRS only knows...". One day I read about some unfortunate person who got hammered by the IRS for not reporting foreign assets, at that point I started to sweat and started my search for a reliable tax accounting firm that knew about FBAR (foreign bank and financial reporting). Long story short, I had to pay a CPA firm to re-file at least 7 previous years of taxes, pay penalties and interest and hope that the IRS would accept that I wasn't a criminal, which they did. In the end it was an unnecessary expense of $34k. To me that was a big mistake especially since it could have been worse had the IRS decided to throw the full 50% penalty at me. When I later spoke to the original accountant and told him about my trouble and repeated his words back to him, he said "ohhh that was BEFORE the Patriot Act, after the PA foreign assets became a whole different ball game". Live and learn.
...
When the IRS came out with the voluntary disclosure program for foreign accounts, I was surprised at how many people had unreported foreign accounts. We had many more clients that I would have expected who took advantage of the program. The fact patterns varied considerably.

In addition to the accounting work to prepare amended returns, there was some legal work in putting together and submitting the application.
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celia
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Re: How many professional advisors required ?

Post by celia »

SwissCoffee wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 9:11 pm The big mistake I made was in the late 1990's and I was using an accountant to help me with my S-corp and personal taxes. When the matter of stocks held in a foreign country came up, his response was "The IRS only knows what you tell them, if you've never reported foreign assets , don't start now".
This sounds like a good counter-argument to using professional advisors. You are inquiring about advisors and how many you should have but, yet, when you used one, it was likely worse than if you hadn't used him.

So, are you looking for a professional advisor who helps you choose professional advisors? :oops:

The reasonable thing to do when you need outside help is to identify the area that concerns you and find someone who has lots of experience in that area. Before you chose that accountant, did you ask how much experience he had with S-corps and reporting foreign assets (as in what rough percentage of his clients are in those categories)?
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celia
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Re: How many professional advisors required ?

Post by celia »

tibbitts wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 7:04 pm
celia wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:36 pm I'm curious as to what you consider a "big mistake", especially those you've experienced. I'll bet some/most of them are due to only looking at a short/long-term goal or a different way of looking at things, which isn't necessarily right or wrong.
Not the OP, but for me a big mistake (at least to the extent of costing tens of thousands of dollars) was not paying attention to RMDs early enough. I knew the rules for RMDs; it just didn't register that I wouldn't be able to dig my way out of excessive RMDs using Roth conversions until it was too late. Quite possibly if someone else had asked me about their similar situation, I would have identified the problem, but I just didn't think about it for myself.
Hey tibbits, I think it is ironic that you replied to my question with an example illustrating my passion: encouraging people to do early Roth conversions.
:sharebeer

Surely, you've been in this forum long enough, while I have been on this Roth conversion drive for about 5 years. I've noticed your name a lot, so we've crossed paths frequently, but you just didn't think about it for yourself? That's hard for me to believe. That must just be part of human nature, like a doctor not realizing when she is sick or a plumber who doesn't strap down his water heater...or a financial advisor who doesn't do Roth conversions for herself...
A dollar in Roth is worth more than a dollar in a taxable account. A dollar in taxable is worth more than a dollar in a tax-deferred account.
Northern Flicker
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Re: How many professional advisors required ?

Post by Northern Flicker »

Sounds like you may want to find a CPA with PFS certification (Personal Financial Specialist). This is a certification for CPAs that I understand to be roughly equivalent to being a certified financial planner on top of the CPA credential.
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