marriage and personal finance
marriage and personal finance
I'm thinking through the personal finance aspects of marriage and things to consider before/during ...
1. Tax filing status
2. Gifting, e.g. superfunding 529 account
3. Practical day to day stuff like whether to have joint checking accounts
4. Prenups
Anything I'm missing as far as things to consider? Thanks!
1. Tax filing status
2. Gifting, e.g. superfunding 529 account
3. Practical day to day stuff like whether to have joint checking accounts
4. Prenups
Anything I'm missing as far as things to consider? Thanks!
Re: marriage and personal finance
Don't think about it, TALK about it with your S.O.!Thomas93 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:14 am I'm thinking through the personal finance aspects of marriage and things to consider before/during ...
1. Tax filing status
2. Gifting, e.g. superfunding 529 account
3. Practical day to day stuff like whether to have joint checking accounts
4. Prenups
Anything I'm missing as far as things to consider? Thanks!
- Cobra Commander
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Re: marriage and personal finance
A few other thoughts:
1. Wills and beneficiary designations on accounts.
2. Spending habits and general budget (presumably this has already been discussed)
3. Kids
1. Wills and beneficiary designations on accounts.
2. Spending habits and general budget (presumably this has already been discussed)
3. Kids
Re: marriage and personal finance
I think you will find there are financial pros and cons both ways (married or unmarried), and which is better for you and/or your partner depends on a lot of personal factors.Thomas93 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:14 am I'm thinking through the personal finance aspects of marriage and things to consider before/during ...
1. Tax filing status
2. Gifting, e.g. superfunding 529 account
3. Practical day to day stuff like whether to have joint checking accounts
4. Prenups
Anything I'm missing as far as things to consider? Thanks!
Re: marriage and personal finance
Is this merely of academic interest, or is this up close and personal?
If the latter, the two of you might go through the Investment Order and Prioritizing investments suggestions to see
1) where you both stand in relation to those, and
2) if you both agree and what you should do going forward.
Good luck!
If the latter, the two of you might go through the Investment Order and Prioritizing investments suggestions to see
1) where you both stand in relation to those, and
2) if you both agree and what you should do going forward.
Good luck!
Re: marriage and personal finance
Talk. Make sure you are both on the same page.
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Re: marriage and personal finance
And be honest about it. You're planning on spending the rest of your life with this person so you don't want to be miserable because you agreed to something just to make the other person happy.
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Re: marriage and personal finance
Be sure to also talk about investing and FIRE. I've seen people who think Boglehead-style investing is gambling.
Re: marriage and personal finance
Thanks for all the great advice!
Re: marriage and personal finance
Move pre-nup to #1. If she refuses that, then she is not "the one" and you can ignore your other wonderings (until the next time).
"Never underestimate one's capacity to overestimate one's abilities" - The Dunning-Kruger Effect
Re: marriage and personal finance
Other things to consider:
Durable power of attorney for financial needs.
Health Care power of attorney.
Living will.
Life Insurance.
Durable power of attorney for financial needs.
Health Care power of attorney.
Living will.
Life Insurance.
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- willthrill81
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Re: marriage and personal finance
Pre-nups don't sit well with me because they are more than a bit of a looking toward the exit door, which makes divorce much more likely. If you're not truly committed, the marriage won't work, either well or at all.
Last edited by willthrill81 on Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Sensible Steward
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Re: marriage and personal finance
Might seem kinda odd but do you love this person? Money is one thing I get that but if marriage is a business deal...well...not sure its going to pay off well...
Re: marriage and personal finance
I’ve been married for about 26 years (to this one) and have worked out a great (for us) financial arrangement. We are both retired 60/70 years old.
She has her own portfolio, pension, bank accounts. These are all joint with me so there is full transparency. Since my portfolio and pensions are much larger than hers, I pay all expenses relating to our basic lives, ie real estate, travel, cash spending, etc. She pays for her personal expenses (clothes, gifts (mostly to me), shoes, handbags,grooming,etc). Similar expenses on my side (much smaller) are simply paid as part of our joint expenses.
This arrangement was the result of us getting together later in life while wanting to shelter her assets from a nasty divorce I was going through. If we were getting together in our twenties, I would expect she would have to be more involved in our basic expenses (perhaps a proportional arrangement) but it would probably still make sense to keep our assets separate.
I manage both portfolios but separately. A fair bit of overlap between the two.
In Canada each person files an individual tax return (no joint filing) so it’s important to separate income sources. Our arrangement works very well. I think the key is that she has her own money and income which she doesn’t have to account for. She would be FI in her own right and this gives her a sense of confidence I think.
Obviously, there are lots of different ways to set this up. Communication is key.
She has her own portfolio, pension, bank accounts. These are all joint with me so there is full transparency. Since my portfolio and pensions are much larger than hers, I pay all expenses relating to our basic lives, ie real estate, travel, cash spending, etc. She pays for her personal expenses (clothes, gifts (mostly to me), shoes, handbags,grooming,etc). Similar expenses on my side (much smaller) are simply paid as part of our joint expenses.
This arrangement was the result of us getting together later in life while wanting to shelter her assets from a nasty divorce I was going through. If we were getting together in our twenties, I would expect she would have to be more involved in our basic expenses (perhaps a proportional arrangement) but it would probably still make sense to keep our assets separate.
I manage both portfolios but separately. A fair bit of overlap between the two.
In Canada each person files an individual tax return (no joint filing) so it’s important to separate income sources. Our arrangement works very well. I think the key is that she has her own money and income which she doesn’t have to account for. She would be FI in her own right and this gives her a sense of confidence I think.
Obviously, there are lots of different ways to set this up. Communication is key.
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Re: marriage and personal finance
It's best if you don't have to have one. But quite frankly the default protection isn't enough for the higher earner, especially when there's a big wealth gap or when one spouse leaves the workforce.willthrill81 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:21 amPre-nups don't sit well with me because they are more than a bit of a looking toward the exit door, which makes divorce much more likely. If you're not truly committed, the marriage won't work, either well or at all.
There's one thread going on where the wife was a higher earner before marriage, then she decided to start a "business" (hobby material), essentially left the workforce - then now demanding alimony. Something like this is absolutely bogus and needs to be protected.
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Re: marriage and personal finance
I suspect people who respond this way have never been divorced and have enjoyed a long, happy marriage.
I suspect anybody who has been divorced would basically agree with BolderBoy (though yes, he expressed it "a touch harsh"). At least if there is a significant discrepancy re: the assets that each party brings to the marriage.
I suspect the vast majority of people who get married do so with a total sense of commitment. With a 50% (+/-) divorce rate, one's sincere belief that "it will never happen to us" comes down to a crap shoot.
Last edited by protagonist on Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:46 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: marriage and personal finance
I certainly understand the concern. But in my mind, there are no easy answers, including pre-nups. Yes, it might be good at protecting your financial assets, but there's a lot more to life than money.Marseille07 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:34 amIt's best if you don't have to have one. But quite frankly the default protection isn't enough for the higher earner, especially when there's a big wealth gap or when one spouse leaves the workforce.willthrill81 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:21 amPre-nups don't sit well with me because they are more than a bit of a looking toward the exit door, which makes divorce much more likely. If you're not truly committed, the marriage won't work, either well or at all.
There's one thread going on where the wife was a higher earner before marriage, then she decided to start a "business" (hobby material), essentially left the workforce - then now demanding alimony. Something like this is absolutely bogus and needs to be protected.
The Sensible Steward
Re: marriage and personal finance
I am quoting a previous post of mine that is relevant here: TL;DR, the very first thing is to make sure you and your person have similar approaches to your financial lives.
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The life events/decisions that have most improved my financial well-being are those that led to being in a situation where I can make all financial and investing decisions on my own. To wit:
Divorcing my ex: Reasons for and timing of the divorce had nothing to do with finances. However, my ex was always concerned with appearances and "keeping up with the Joneses". And in the startup/VC space in VHCOL Silicon Valley, many of the Joneses make multiple millions of dollars per year. Together my ex and I made in the mid-six figure range, but there was no way that we could save money and also keep up the types of appearances that mattered to him. Now that we have separate households and finances, I save close to a third of my income. I have a lot less coming in than before, but I feel financially healthier and much less anxious now that I am in control and can make decisions on my own.
Relatedly:
NOT moving in with/marrying my fiance. I adore the man, he is the love of my life and an amazing partner in so many ways. Given our VHCOL area, we could economize by getting hitched and combining households. However, he wouldn't know a budget if one walked up and punched him in the nose. His approach to budgeting is to check his bank balance on his phone every few days. He does not contribute to his workplace 401k to get the employer match. He has no emergency fund, no savings of any kind other than his house (25 years left on a 30 year mortgage). He makes good money (more than me) but is constantly "short." I've tried to (gently) share personal finance resources with him, talk about my own practices, be very clear that a thoughtful financial approach is very important to me, none of it seems to lead to any behavioral change on his part. And I just can't. I cannot give up my hard-won sense of security and financial control. We got engaged because we were tired of referring to each other as "my partner". But we have no plan to actually move in together or get married for at least the next 6-8 years. Maybe never, if our approaches to finance continue to be incompatible. We'll see.
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Regarding prenups--these are only necessary if one or both of you are bringing substantial assets into the marriage, or if you anticipate that one of you will wind up with substantially more assets than the other during the marriage. In my first marriage we were starting with nothing so no need for a prenup. If my fiance and I ever do get married, I will want a prenup based on our discrepant assets (and the fact that we both have kids from our first marriages).
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The life events/decisions that have most improved my financial well-being are those that led to being in a situation where I can make all financial and investing decisions on my own. To wit:
Divorcing my ex: Reasons for and timing of the divorce had nothing to do with finances. However, my ex was always concerned with appearances and "keeping up with the Joneses". And in the startup/VC space in VHCOL Silicon Valley, many of the Joneses make multiple millions of dollars per year. Together my ex and I made in the mid-six figure range, but there was no way that we could save money and also keep up the types of appearances that mattered to him. Now that we have separate households and finances, I save close to a third of my income. I have a lot less coming in than before, but I feel financially healthier and much less anxious now that I am in control and can make decisions on my own.
Relatedly:
NOT moving in with/marrying my fiance. I adore the man, he is the love of my life and an amazing partner in so many ways. Given our VHCOL area, we could economize by getting hitched and combining households. However, he wouldn't know a budget if one walked up and punched him in the nose. His approach to budgeting is to check his bank balance on his phone every few days. He does not contribute to his workplace 401k to get the employer match. He has no emergency fund, no savings of any kind other than his house (25 years left on a 30 year mortgage). He makes good money (more than me) but is constantly "short." I've tried to (gently) share personal finance resources with him, talk about my own practices, be very clear that a thoughtful financial approach is very important to me, none of it seems to lead to any behavioral change on his part. And I just can't. I cannot give up my hard-won sense of security and financial control. We got engaged because we were tired of referring to each other as "my partner". But we have no plan to actually move in together or get married for at least the next 6-8 years. Maybe never, if our approaches to finance continue to be incompatible. We'll see.
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Regarding prenups--these are only necessary if one or both of you are bringing substantial assets into the marriage, or if you anticipate that one of you will wind up with substantially more assets than the other during the marriage. In my first marriage we were starting with nothing so no need for a prenup. If my fiance and I ever do get married, I will want a prenup based on our discrepant assets (and the fact that we both have kids from our first marriages).
Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life? |
~Mary Oliver
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Re: marriage and personal finance
If both parties agree that there's a lot more to life than money, then they should have no problem signing pre-nups to declare that neither person is interested in going after the spouse's money.willthrill81 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:38 am I certainly understand the concern. But in my mind, there are no easy answers, including pre-nups. Yes, it might be good at protecting your financial assets, but there's a lot more to life than money.
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Re: marriage and personal finance
There are issues with that approach though. However, I don't believe it is appropriate to further discuss the relational aspects due to forum rules.Marseille07 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:47 amIf both parties agree that there's a lot more to life than money, then they should have no problem signing pre-nups to declare that neither person is interested in going after the spouse's money.willthrill81 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:38 am I certainly understand the concern. But in my mind, there are no easy answers, including pre-nups. Yes, it might be good at protecting your financial assets, but there's a lot more to life than money.
The Sensible Steward
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Re: marriage and personal finance
Disagree.willthrill81 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:21 amPre-nups don't sit well with me because they are more than a bit of a looking toward the exit door, which makes divorce much more likely. If you're not truly committed, the marriage won't work, either well or at all.
At the end of the day, marriage is a contract - a special kind of contract with significant legal, tax, and personal finance implications. You either write your own prenuptial agreement or you accept the government's default version. With the high rate of divorce today, a person with assets or plans to acquire assets needs to be aware of what he/she is getting themselves into.
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Re: marriage and personal finance
I urge you to honestly consider whether viewing a marriage as a contract is a contributing factor in the high divorce rate.truenorth418 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:51 amDisagree.willthrill81 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:21 amPre-nups don't sit well with me because they are more than a bit of a looking toward the exit door, which makes divorce much more likely. If you're not truly committed, the marriage won't work, either well or at all.
At the end of the day, marriage is a contract - a special kind of contract with significant legal, tax, and personal finance implications. You either write your own prenuptial agreement or you accept the government's default version. With the high rate of divorce today, a person with assets or plans to acquire assets needs to be aware of what he/she is getting themselves into.
As noted above, I'm not going to discuss this further due to forum rules.
The Sensible Steward
Re: marriage and personal finance
If you marry without a prenup you are incentivizing your wife to divorce you.
Re: marriage and personal finance
Seems as though this statement inherently assumes that the wife is a lower income earner / has fewer assets. Increasingly that is not true and I wonder how many men would respond happily and openly when their higher earning wife brings up the discussion of a prenup?
Perhaps the solution is to revisit the laws of the various states and get some uniformity and fairness into the system. With female employment and incomes steadily rising, as well as their increased political influence, I would expect that there will be some resetting of the procedures and defaults at the state levels in the coming decades. One can only hope that a better system emerges from the current chaos.
Re: marriage and personal finance
That what talking is all about. Finding out what's real, rather than what someone is willing to go along with.
Best done before commitment.
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Re: marriage and personal finance
Sorry, that's nonsense.
This isn't just my wallet. It's an organizer, a memory and an old friend.
Re: marriage and personal finance
I will likely marry my gf who I just had a child with.
Our net worths are opposite ends of the spectrum and I’ve been crystal clear from the beginning there is no marriage without an ironclad prenup that protects premarital assets.
I am fully prepared for child support should dissolution arise, I will not put my accumulated assets prior to marriage at risk, it’s a nonstarter.
Our net worths are opposite ends of the spectrum and I’ve been crystal clear from the beginning there is no marriage without an ironclad prenup that protects premarital assets.
I am fully prepared for child support should dissolution arise, I will not put my accumulated assets prior to marriage at risk, it’s a nonstarter.
Re: marriage and personal finance
I know this is personal, but what has worked for us in our 20 year marriage is just to max everything out that we can from both salaries and combine the rest. My husband is frugal in some things, but not others. I am similar. We don't nitpick each other's purchases or keep score. It might be difficult to marry someone who spends a ton of money if you're a tightwad. In that case, I'd probably advise separate accounts or allowances.
My husband is a little older than me and had more assets to his name. There was no prenup. It didn't really matter after a few years because there is a lot you can achieve when two people both have incomes to contribute, but only one household to maintain. What we've saved together (and with compounding interest) is a lot more significant than what he saved as a single guy.
My advice would be to save as much as you can when you are first together. It's amazing how many choices you have later in life. It makes your marriage better too I think if you don't have a lot of money problems. Sometimes I roll my eyes at some of his purchases, and I'm sure he rolls his eyes at some of mine. It doesn't really matter much though.
When kids come along, we did a lump sum into the 529. That was a good move in hindsight. We already maxed out our retirement and it feels nice to get that checked off.
My husband is a little older than me and had more assets to his name. There was no prenup. It didn't really matter after a few years because there is a lot you can achieve when two people both have incomes to contribute, but only one household to maintain. What we've saved together (and with compounding interest) is a lot more significant than what he saved as a single guy.
My advice would be to save as much as you can when you are first together. It's amazing how many choices you have later in life. It makes your marriage better too I think if you don't have a lot of money problems. Sometimes I roll my eyes at some of his purchases, and I'm sure he rolls his eyes at some of mine. It doesn't really matter much though.
When kids come along, we did a lump sum into the 529. That was a good move in hindsight. We already maxed out our retirement and it feels nice to get that checked off.
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Re: marriage and personal finance
Yep.willthrill81 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:21 amPre-nups don't sit well with me because they are more than a bit of a looking toward the exit door, which makes divorce much more likely. If you're not truly committed, the marriage won't work, either well or at all.
The unexamined life is not worth living.
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Re: marriage and personal finance
Relationships have a certain level of formally agreed on, tacitly agreed on (didn't say no so must be okay, "you never said anything so I thought. . . . . . ?), and never discussed (avoided), degree of commingling.
And, each person has a certain level of openness to discuss these things amiably, and also needs a certain amount of time to think about things before revisiting the issue. Some things resolve and some don't.
So, openness, humility, compassion, empathy. Because personal finance, "my money", "your money", relates to "my efforts", "my contribution from my own personal labors", "my commitment", and also "my personal space and boundaries".
So, be prepared to work things out now, and every day along the way after a year, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years. . . etc, as you both evolve as a couple and as individuals.
(it's not a one shot agree and put in writing thing or project on a spreadsheet thing).
Point here is "personal finance" is not just that.
Just as shared things bring and keep people together.
So does common goals and paths. So, attune those with financial and tangible goals. IE: house, children, schools, and all that.
(like a "bogle portfolio", it's comprehensive).
Lot's of opinions on these things based on life experiences and other opinions.
j
And, each person has a certain level of openness to discuss these things amiably, and also needs a certain amount of time to think about things before revisiting the issue. Some things resolve and some don't.
So, openness, humility, compassion, empathy. Because personal finance, "my money", "your money", relates to "my efforts", "my contribution from my own personal labors", "my commitment", and also "my personal space and boundaries".
So, be prepared to work things out now, and every day along the way after a year, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years. . . etc, as you both evolve as a couple and as individuals.
(it's not a one shot agree and put in writing thing or project on a spreadsheet thing).
Point here is "personal finance" is not just that.
Just as shared things bring and keep people together.
So does common goals and paths. So, attune those with financial and tangible goals. IE: house, children, schools, and all that.
(like a "bogle portfolio", it's comprehensive).
Lot's of opinions on these things based on life experiences and other opinions.
j
Last edited by Sandtrap on Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: marriage and personal finance
I agree. "Get out the back Jack." "Find a new plan,Stan."willthrill81 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:21 amPre-nups don't sit well with me because they are more than a bit of a looking toward the exit door, which makes divorce much more likely. If you're not truly committed, the marriage won't work, either well or at all.
I would worry more about each others level of commitment to each other. If you've got that you can work through the other issues.
"Earn All You Can; Give All You Can; Save All You Can." .... John Wesley
Re: marriage and personal finance
I would recommend discussing your next big "savings" goal.
For example, do we want to save for a down payment for a house? Or do we want to maximize our retirement savings and push towards FIRE? Or do we want to save for a big vacation every year? Or do we want to focus on paying off our debts? etc, etc.
Our has changed several times throughout my short marriage of almost 2 years. First it was saving for a rental property/house then it changed to a 2nd rental property and then it was FIRE but now it's changed to saving for home improvements and probably going to morph into getting a camper van.
And just to hop into the prenup discussion, I used to be a proponent of prenups before I met my wife but now I'm against it. I joined the marriage with 10x more assets than her but it didn't matter to me because I was in this for the long haul and I felt like it would "cheapen" our marriage by having that contract over our heads. If we divorce then I will chalk it up to a very expensive lesson learned but I will know that I went into it with full commitment.
As the young kids like to say, it was a full send.
For example, do we want to save for a down payment for a house? Or do we want to maximize our retirement savings and push towards FIRE? Or do we want to save for a big vacation every year? Or do we want to focus on paying off our debts? etc, etc.
Our has changed several times throughout my short marriage of almost 2 years. First it was saving for a rental property/house then it changed to a 2nd rental property and then it was FIRE but now it's changed to saving for home improvements and probably going to morph into getting a camper van.
And just to hop into the prenup discussion, I used to be a proponent of prenups before I met my wife but now I'm against it. I joined the marriage with 10x more assets than her but it didn't matter to me because I was in this for the long haul and I felt like it would "cheapen" our marriage by having that contract over our heads. If we divorce then I will chalk it up to a very expensive lesson learned but I will know that I went into it with full commitment.
As the young kids like to say, it was a full send.
Re: marriage and personal finance
I would love to see data, if it exists, but I suspect that divorce rates are actually lower among couples who have pre-nups than those who don't (but if that is correct, I don't think the pre-nup itself has anything to do with it).willthrill81 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:53 am
I urge you to honestly consider whether viewing a marriage as a contract is a contributing factor in the high divorce rate.
Last edited by oldfatguy on Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: marriage and personal finance
I think it depends. As a retired person, I can’t imagine marrying without a prenup. But if in young adulthood, I can’t imagine a prenup. Other ages - fuzzy.
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Re: marriage and personal finance
Can be true in some cases. After all, how many successful women want a spouse living on the fruits of their labor whilst their husbands slouch through life?
Broken Man 1999
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Re: marriage and personal finance
I think the most important things to get right in terms of the financial aspect of marriage is to choose someone with similar work ethic, values, and priorities as you, become great communicators, and most other things will follow. It’s hard to avoid resentment if you’re a hard worker and your partner wants to coast, and I’m sure vice versa. It’s hard, maybe even impossible, to work through life’s inevitable challenges when you have conflicting values. And lastly, when you have two hardworking people who value the same things, but have different priorities, money can become super personal and emotional, and sometimes it feels like a zero-sum situation.
Re: marriage and personal finance
Wow. I seem to have lit a fuse. Let's stay on topic, please.
Remember that one of John Bogle's books has a chapter entitled, "Divorce and other financial disasters."
Remember that one of John Bogle's books has a chapter entitled, "Divorce and other financial disasters."
"Never underestimate one's capacity to overestimate one's abilities" - The Dunning-Kruger Effect
Re: marriage and personal finance
When I was in grad school, one of my clinical instructors married a guy with a job. The day after the wedding he quit his job and didn't work anymore. It took the wife 2+ years to unload the bum and he got a goodly part of her accumulated wealth in the divorce. We all got daily updates about the misery she had to endure.Broken Man 1999 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:47 amCan be true in some cases. After all, how many successful women want a spouse living on the fruits of their labor whilst their husbands slouch through life?
So it absolutely happens.
"Never underestimate one's capacity to overestimate one's abilities" - The Dunning-Kruger Effect
Re: marriage and personal finance
Thread has run its course. Marriage advice is off-topic for this forum.