my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

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alex345
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:13 am

my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by alex345 »

I am asking for financial advice not your opinion of my marriage.

My goal is to achieve FI (or get close enough to it) so DW and I can live in same place while I downshift at work, possibly retiring in next 5 or so years.

My wife and I have been living apart for 11 of the past 13 years (except for winter/summer breaks we see each other for a weekend once a month). Because of COVID and over a decade of my employment (direct management sees me as a high performer) my management chain is happy to let me remote work from the other side of the country. However, the remote work agreement is temporary, has to be renewed every year, and HR as well as people not in my management chain have to sign off. I know that doing this will limit my career and that I may be recalled back to CA.

I am somewhat bored / tired of my job but I don't dislike it. If I get recalled back to CA my plan is to quit instead, hopefully I can squeeze out 5 or so more years of remote work and fully get us to our FI numbers. Employment opportunities where I am moving are limited to say the least, but I could get some job just for something to do. There is nothing like my job except for a few very specific locations in the US.

DW is a professor and wants to work until normal retirement age. DW has tried for over 10 yrs to get a job in CA but the academic job market is brutal, DW has tenure-track job and is up for tenure review in spring 2022. DW is confident that she will get tenure, but that is another uncertainty.

Age: 40 DW 39
Kids: None and no plans for kids
State: CA, DW PA (will move to PA)
Tax: MFJ
Tax rate: fed 22% / CA 9.3% / PA (not sure?)
Income: 140k / DW 65k

Debt:
300k on CA house at 2.75% 22 yrs left
soon closing on PA house with 121.5k mortgage soon at 2.35% 15yr fixed
6k on car at 4.8% (2 yrs left)
7k 403b loan 4% 2 yrs left (down payment on CA house)
15k 403b loan 4% (liquidity for PA home purchase and expenses for moving/PA house fixes)

Target AA:
* 65 Stock / 17.5 TREA / 17.5 TIAA Trad
* stock is 50%/50% split US/INTL
* 50% of stock is large row in 9 box style
* 40% of stock in value column in 9 box style
* 40% of international is emerging markets
* 10% of total portfolio in real estate equity (also 50/50 US/INTL)
* 5% of total portfolio in sector funds (energy, PM equity, or other sectors)

EF: typically hold 30k in cash (60k right now for closing + moving expenses)
Current Retirement assets: 930k / total average ER 0.23% / 200k in ROTH / 730k in 403b / 0 in taxable

US Equity: 25.29% / ER 0.09%
CREF Equity Index N/A 0.30% 4.42%
Fidelity Total Market FSKAX 0.02% 3.96%
Vanguard Inst Index (SP500) VIIIX 0.02% 5.39%
Vanguard 500 Indx VFIAX 0.04% 0.97%
Vanguard Extended Mkt Idx VEMPX 0.05% 2.82%
Vanguard Small Cap Value Idx VSIAX 0.07% 6.72%
Vanguard Small Cap Idx VSMAX 0.05% 1.01%

Intl Equity: 25.86% / ER 0.22%
Vanguard Tot Intl Idx VTPSX 0.07% 8.91%
Vanguard Tot Intl Idx VTIAX 0.11% 4.91%
FTSE All-World Ex-Us Small Cap VSS 0.11% 4.78%
Schwab Fundamental EM FNDE 0.39% 2.40%
Wisdom Tree EM Small Cap Div DGS 0.63% 4.85%

RE Equity: 9.66% / ER 0.17%
Vanguard REIT Index VNQ 0.12% 3.51%
Vanguard exUS RE Index VNQI 0.12% 4.93%
iShares FTSE mREIT Index REM 0.48% 1.22%

Sectors: 4.20% / ER 0.37%
Vanguard Energy VGENX 0.38% 1.40%
Vanguard Prec. Metals & Mining VGPMX 0.37% 2.80%

Non-Equity: 34.98% / ER 0.35%
TIAA Real Estate N/A 0.79% 14.73%
TIAA Traditional N/A 0.00% 17.67%
Money Market Accounts VMMXX 0.23% 2.58%

Annual Contributions: about 65k (12k Roth, rest 403b).
There are 403b in a quite a few accounts that have different options, hence a lot of funds that are very similar

Home Equity:
CA house: worth 800k-900k, owe 300k, will sell or rent. Could rent for 3200 / month, payments are 2100 / month

We are closing on a house in PA next weekend, cost 135k.

I figure our FI number is about 2M at 3.5% WR (70k expenses), but DW plans to work for many more years.

Questions:
* Sell or rent CA home? Can net about 500k after fees, or rent and net about 900 / month (85% of rent-PITI hold backs for manager fees and vacancy).
* Does my plan to quit if recalled make financial sense? This move is the start of pulling the plug on my job, basically my YOLO move.
* Feedback on portfolio is welcome, but I'm happy with my risk profile as well as with some of my strange choices (REM, VGPMX, and VGENX). I was somewhat upset that VGPMX changed a few years ago, but I still haven't sold it for a better PM equity fund.

I think our plan makes sense but it is such a big change I am worried as I am the big earner. Getting to this point has been a long term goal for us and it seems like we can finally make this change.
Last edited by alex345 on Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
marcopolo
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Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by marcopolo »

As I was reading your post, I was expecting some crazy Bay Area Tech salary, like $500k/yr or more.

You lived apart for 11 years for a job paying $140k?!?
What could you earn at a job while living with your DW?
It is hard to see how the delta would justify the added cost of maintaining two residences, traveling back and forth, etc.

If you would be happy living in PA with your spouse (after 11 years apart, that may not be a given), your plan to go remote and quit if necessary seems like a no brainer.

I would sell the house. Being a distant landlord is a big headache I would not want to deal with for a single property.

EDIT: If your wife's university has an "up or out" attitude towards tenure, you might consider waiting the year to see if she indeed gets tenure.

alex345 wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:39 pm My goal is to achieve FI (or get close enough to it) so DW and I can live in same place while I downshift at work, possibly retiring in next 5 or so years.

My wife and I have been living apart for 11 of the past 13 years (except for winter/summer breaks we see each other for a weekend once a month). Because of COVID and over a decade of my employment (direct management sees me as a high performer) my management chain is happy to let me remote work from the other side of the country. However, the remote work agreement is temporary, has to be renewed every year, and HR as well as people not in my management chain have to sign off. I know that doing this will limit my career and that I may be recalled back to CA.

I am somewhat bored / tired of my job but I don't dislike it. If I get recalled back to CA my plan is to quit instead, hopefully I can squeeze out 5 or so more years of remote work and fully get us to our FI numbers. Employment opportunities where I am moving are limited to say the least, but I could get some job just for something to do. There is nothing like my job except for a few very specific locations in the US.

DW is a professor and wants to work until normal retirement age. DW has tried for over 10 yrs to get a job in CA but the academic job market is brutal, DW has tenure-track job and is up for tenure review in spring 2022. DW is confident that she will get tenure, but that is another uncertainty.

Age: 40 DW 39
Kids: None and no plans for kids
State: CA, DW PA (will move to PA)
Tax: MFJ
Tax rate: fed 22% / CA 9.3% / PA (not sure?)
Income: 140k / DW 65k

Debt:
300k on CA house at 2.75% 22 yrs left
soon closing on PA house with 121.5k mortgage soon at 2.35% 15yr fixed
6k on car at 4.8% (2 yrs left)
7k 403b loan 4% 2 yrs left (down payment on CA house)
15k 403b loan 4% (liquidity for PA home purchase and expenses for moving/PA house fixes)

Target AA:
* 65 Stock / 17.5 TREA / 17.5 TIAA Trad
* stock is 50%/50% split US/INTL
* 50% of stock is large row in 9 box style
* 40% of stock in value column in 9 box style
* 40% of international is emerging markets
* 10% of total portfolio in real estate equity (also 50/50 US/INTL)
* 5% of total portfolio in sector funds (energy, PM equity, or other sectors)

EF: typically hold 30k in cash (60k right now for closing + moving expenses)
Current Retirement assets: 930k / total average ER 0.23% / 200k in ROTH / 730k in 403b / 0 in taxable

US Equity: 25.29% / ER 0.09%
CREF Equity Index N/A 0.30% 4.42%
Fidelity Total Market FSKAX 0.02% 3.96%
Vanguard Inst Index (SP500) VIIIX 0.02% 5.39%
Vanguard 500 Indx VFIAX 0.04% 0.97%
Vanguard Extended Mkt Idx VEMPX 0.05% 2.82%
Vanguard Small Cap Value Idx VSIAX 0.07% 6.72%
Vanguard Small Cap Idx VSMAX 0.05% 1.01%

Intl Equity: 25.86% / ER 0.22%
Vanguard Tot Intl Idx VTPSX 0.07% 8.91%
Vanguard Tot Intl Idx VTIAX 0.11% 4.91%
FTSE All-World Ex-Us Small Cap VSS 0.11% 4.78%
Schwab Fundamental EM FNDE 0.39% 2.40%
Wisdom Tree EM Small Cap Div DGS 0.63% 4.85%

RE Equity: 9.66% / ER 0.17%
Vanguard REIT Index VNQ 0.12% 3.51%
Vanguard exUS RE Index VNQI 0.12% 4.93%
iShares FTSE mREIT Index REM 0.48% 1.22%

Sectors: 4.20% / ER 0.37%
Vanguard Energy VGENX 0.38% 1.40%
Vanguard Prec. Metals & Mining VGPMX 0.37% 2.80%

Non-Equity: 34.98% / ER 0.35%
TIAA Real Estate N/A 0.79% 14.73%
TIAA Traditional N/A 0.00% 17.67%
Money Market Accounts VMMXX 0.23% 2.58%

Annual Contributions: about 65k (12k Roth, rest 403b).
There are 403b in a quite a few accounts that have different options, hence a lot of funds that are very similar

Home Equity:
CA house: worth 800k-900k, owe 300k, will sell or rent. Could rent for 3200 / month, payments are 2100 / month

We are closing on a house in PA next weekend, cost 135k.

I figure our FI number is about 2M at 3.5% WR (70k expenses), but DW plans to work for many more years.

Questions:
* Sell or rent CA home? Can net about 500k after fees, or rent and net about 900 / month (85% of rent-PITI hold backs for manager fees and vacancy).
* Does my plan to quit if recalled make financial sense? This move is the start of pulling the plug on my job, basically my YOLO move.
* Feedback on portfolio is welcome, but I'm happy with my risk profile as well as with some of my strange choices (REM, VGPMX, and VGENX). I was somewhat upset that VGPMX changed a few years ago, but I still haven't sold it for a better PM equity fund.

I think our plan makes sense but it is such a big change I am worried as I am the big earner. Getting to this point has been a long term goal for us and it seems like we can finally make this change.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
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Watty
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Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by Watty »

alex345 wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:39 pm I figure our FI number is about 2M at 3.5% WR (70k expenses)....
I had a hard time following your numbers but it sounds like your net worth including your home equity is about $1.5 million now.

Selling the house and moving while the housing markets are still hot is a no brainer. You can keep working remotely for at least a few more years and if they require you to return in a few years you can decide what to do then. If you wanted to move back for some reason you could get an apartment for a few years until you are ready to retire.

Do not even consider keeping the California house as a rental if you move. Among many other problems keeping the California house as a rental would be a huge diversification problem and you would lose the homeowners capital gains exemption if you rent it for more than a few years.
Topic Author
alex345
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Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:13 am

Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by alex345 »

marcopolo wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:01 pm As I was reading your post, I was expecting some crazy Bay Area Tech salary, like $500k/yr or more.
Nope just a engineer in .gov space, but we get good benefits.
You lived apart for 11 years for a job paying $140k?!?
What could you earn at a job while living with your DW?
It is hard to see how the delta would justify the added cost of maintaining two residences, traveling back and forth, etc.
I've had the CA job for 13 yrs, at first DW was still finishing PhD, then did a few temporary professor gigs, but she has only had the tenure-track gig for 5 yrs now. I (used to) do about 6 trips a year of work travel and could align my visits to PA with work trips and only pay for the personal travel portion of a three leg business and personal travel itinerary. I've had quite a few work foreign work trips that she has tagged along on :D. Until the recent past few years remote work was not an option for me.
If you would be happy living in PA with your spouse (after 11 years apart, that may not be a given), your plan to go remote and quit if necessary seems like a no brainer.

I would sell the house. Being a distant landlord is a big headache I would not want to deal with for a single property.
Agree with selling, it is my inclination as well. The house we are getting is in a town that has the things that I want as far as my hobbies and long term things I want to do outside of work that can occupy my time if/when I stop working. I spent 1/3 of the past year working from PA already, and explored the area and found this town.
EDIT: If your wife's university has an "up or out" attitude towards tenure, you might consider waiting the year to see if she indeed gets tenure.
My biggest concern also, but all quantitative comparisons of her work to other colleges who have gotten it she is doing well in both teaching and publishing.
Mike Scott
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Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by Mike Scott »

I would try to hold out on quitting until after tenure is decided. The university world is unpredictable and covid has turned it into chaos this year and it's not done yet.
Topic Author
alex345
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Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:13 am

Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by alex345 »

Watty wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:52 pm I had a hard time following your numbers but it sounds like your net worth including your home equity is about $1.5 million now.
Yes about, if we sell my spreadsheet says we will reach our numbers in about 5 years, maybe a few more if there is a recession.
Selling the house and moving while the housing markets are still hot is a no brainer. You can keep working remotely for at least a few more years and if they require you to return in a few years you can decide what to do then. If you wanted to move back for some reason you could get an apartment for a few years until you are ready to retire.

Do not even consider keeping the California house as a rental if you move. Among many other problems keeping the California house as a rental would be a huge diversification problem and you would lose the homeowners capital gains exemption if you rent it for more than a few years.
That's my feeling. Agreed on the cap gains exemption as well.
Normchad
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Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by Normchad »

Wow, this sounds like a bad situation. You should move to be with your spouse, then let the chips fall where they may.

If they insist you go back to the office, then you should quit. But if you do that, if you're willing to quit, they might change their mind.

but I wouldn't put up with what you're doing; that's no way to live. Too much sacrifice.

And, although job opportunities may be limited in PA, we are now seeing the rise of full-time, remote positions. You could likely find something there that would suit you.

Best of luck to you!
livelovelaugh00
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Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by livelovelaugh00 »

"My wife and I have been living apart for 11 of the past 13 years "
This is crazy. It is not life, not worth it.
an_asker
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Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by an_asker »

livelovelaugh00 wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:03 pm "My wife and I have been living apart for 11 of the past 13 years "
This is crazy. It is not life, not worth it.
I've heard of long distance relationships but this takes the cake on long term marriage for sure! Hats off to Mr. & Mrs. OP!
an_asker
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Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by an_asker »

marcopolo wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:01 pm As I was reading your post, I was expecting some crazy Bay Area Tech salary, like $500k/yr or more.
Me too!

BTW, per these forums, $500k in the Bay Area is not crazy, only par for the course!
You lived apart for 11 years for a job paying $140k?!?
What could you earn at a job while living with your DW?
It is hard to see how the delta would justify the added cost of maintaining two residences, traveling back and forth, etc.

If you would be happy living in PA with your spouse (after 11 years apart, that may not be a given), your plan to go remote and quit if necessary seems like a no brainer.

I would sell the house. Being a distant landlord is a big headache I would not want to deal with for a single property.

EDIT: If your wife's university has an "up or out" attitude towards tenure, you might consider waiting the year to see if she indeed gets tenure.
[...]
+1

Also, unless there is some multiplier involved, the $65k professor salary appears really low as well!
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leeks
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Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by leeks »

an_asker wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:25 pm Also, unless there is some multiplier involved, the $65k professor salary appears really low as well!
Very believable. Professors, especially not-yet-tenured-ones, mostly don't make huge salaries. And many are in low or medium cost of living areas.
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leeks
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Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by leeks »

Normchad wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:16 pm Wow, this sounds like a bad situation. You should move to be with your spouse, then let the chips fall where they may.

If they insist you go back to the office, then you should quit. But if you do that, if you're willing to quit, they might change their mind.

but I wouldn't put up with what you're doing; that's no way to live. Too much sacrifice.

And, although job opportunities may be limited in PA, we are now seeing the rise of full-time, remote positions. You could likely find something there that would suit you.

Best of luck to you!
+1
SrGrumpy
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Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by SrGrumpy »

alex345 wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:39 pm My wife and I have been living apart for 11 of the past 13 years
How does she feel about all this? My wife and I lived in separate hemispheres for the first few years of our marriage. I didn't mind because I like solitude and travel, but it drove her mad.
politely
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Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by politely »

Let me start out by noting that I write this post with all due respect, no offense meant and good intent. And, of course, I do not assume to know your personal situation.

There is a known phenomenon where divorce rates spike when married couples suddenly start spending more time with each other, such as when the last kid goes off to college or upon retirement. Given the amount of time you two have lived apart, if I were in your shoes, I would consider really living together for a number of years before cutting off the salary - unless you think you can retire comfortably on half of your current shared assets.
bwalling
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Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by bwalling »

politely wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:51 am There is a known phenomenon where divorce rates spike when married couples suddenly start spending more time with each other, such as when the last kid goes off to college or upon retirement. Given the amount of time you two have lived apart, if I were in your shoes, I would consider really living together for a number of years before cutting off the salary - unless you think you can retire comfortably on half of your current shared assets.
I hate to add on to this, but it's my biggest concern with the OP. The financial side is straightforward. The marital side may be harder. I'd navigate this part, and figure the money will work itself out.
Wannaretireearly
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Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by Wannaretireearly »

politely wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:51 am Let me start out by noting that I write this post with all due respect, no offense meant and good intent. And, of course, I do not assume to know your personal situation.

There is a known phenomenon where divorce rates spike when married couples suddenly start spending more time with each other, such as when the last kid goes off to college or upon retirement. Given the amount of time you two have lived apart, if I were in your shoes, I would consider really living together for a number of years before cutting off the salary - unless you think you can retire comfortably on half of your current shared assets.
Or Covid WFH for couples 😆
A true test...
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JoeRetire
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Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by JoeRetire »

alex345 wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:39 pm I am somewhat bored / tired of my job but I don't dislike it. If I get recalled back to CA my plan is to quit instead, hopefully I can squeeze out 5 or so more years of remote work and fully get us to our FI numbers. Employment opportunities where I am moving are limited to say the least, but I could get some job just for something to do. There is nothing like my job except for a few very specific locations in the US.

DW is a professor and wants to work until normal retirement age. DW has tried for over 10 yrs to get a job in CA but the academic job market is brutal, DW has tenure-track job and is up for tenure review in spring 2022. DW is confident that she will get tenure, but that is another uncertainty.

I figure our FI number is about 2M at 3.5% WR (70k expenses), but DW plans to work for many more years.

* Sell or rent CA home?
Sell.
* Does my plan to quit if recalled make financial sense? This move is the start of pulling the plug on my job, basically my YOLO move.
Not to me (I would find a new job), but it's your YOLO.

You are somewhat bored and want to no longer work, while your wife plans to work for many more years. For me, that makes no sense, but it's your life.
I think our plan makes sense but it is such a big change I am worried as I am the big earner. Getting to this point has been a long term goal for us and it seems like we can finally make this change.
The long term goal is for you to not work while your wife works? Other than "not work" to you have any plans on what you will actually do?
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alex345
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Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by alex345 »

JoeRetire wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:52 am
* Does my plan to quit if recalled make financial sense? This move is the start of pulling the plug on my job, basically my YOLO move.
Not to me (I would find a new job), but it's your YOLO.
You are somewhat bored and want to no longer work, while your wife plans to work for many more years. For me, that makes no sense, but it's your life.
I think our plan makes sense but it is such a big change I am worried as I am the big earner. Getting to this point has been a long term goal for us and it seems like we can finally make this change.
The long term goal is for you to not work while your wife works? Other than "not work" to you have any plans on what you will actually do?
I want to be occupied but not have to work anymore. I am very involved in mountain biking and the non-profits that help maintain trails, increase access, and build new trails. I'm already doing that in CA, and I picked the town to live in because it already had those things. That is where I find fulfillment outside of work. It's my requirement on where we live.

As far as living apart, it professors get a lot of time off (4+ months a year) so we really spent about half our time together during the years apart, and all of the previous year and a half. Thanks for all the concerns.
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JoeRetire
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Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by JoeRetire »

alex345 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:13 am
JoeRetire wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:52 am
* Does my plan to quit if recalled make financial sense? This move is the start of pulling the plug on my job, basically my YOLO move.
Not to me (I would find a new job), but it's your YOLO.
You are somewhat bored and want to no longer work, while your wife plans to work for many more years. For me, that makes no sense, but it's your life.
I think our plan makes sense but it is such a big change I am worried as I am the big earner. Getting to this point has been a long term goal for us and it seems like we can finally make this change.
The long term goal is for you to not work while your wife works? Other than "not work" to you have any plans on what you will actually do?
I want to be occupied but not have to work anymore. I am very involved in mountain biking and the non-profits that help maintain trails, increase access, and build new trails. I'm already doing that in CA, and I picked the town to live in because it already had those things. That is where I find fulfillment outside of work. It's my requirement on where we live.

As far as living apart, it professors get a lot of time off (4+ months a year) so we really spent about half our time together during the years apart, and all of the previous year and a half. Thanks for all the concerns.
Good luck.
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Ramjet
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Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by Ramjet »

Sell the home in CA, the money will go a long way in PA
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Watty
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Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by Watty »

politely wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:51 am Let me start out by noting that I write this post with all due respect, no offense meant and good intent. And, of course, I do not assume to know your personal situation.

There is a known phenomenon where divorce rates spike when married couples suddenly start spending more time with each other, such as when the last kid goes off to college or upon retirement. Given the amount of time you two have lived apart, if I were in your shoes, I would consider really living together for a number of years before cutting off the salary - unless you think you can retire comfortably on half of your current shared assets.
It sounds like the OP can work remotely for at least the next year so now would be a good time to try living together full time again.

Frankly if living together full time is going to be a problem then it might be better to find that out now instead of 10 or 20 years from now.
getthatmarshmallow
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Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by getthatmarshmallow »

Wait till she gets tenure maybe, but then sell the CA house.. Fwiw, I can see how the long distance relationship evolved: she's in school so it doesn't make sense to relocate, she's on a term position so it doesn't make sense to relocate, then she's newly on the tenure track, etc. With weekends and summers the two body problem doesn't seem as onerous as it might otherwise.
DoTheMath
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Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:11 pm
Location: The Plains

Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by DoTheMath »

Not only can you do this, I think you definitely should do it. I think there is no big risk here and it makes a lot of sense.

The timing is perfect in my mind. You can WFH for the next year (or two) and by then you'll know about your DW's tenure status. Either way her and your careers go, you'll be poised to stay in PA, go back to CA, or do something new.

If and when your employer recalls you, you can worry about it then. I think it's good to be comfortable with the idea of quitting, and it's a fine plan, but I don't think it is necessary for it to be carved in stone. It seems like financially you could take a pretty big pay cut for a PA job if it came to that. Also, finding a different WFH job may not be as hard as you think. Especially if you spend a little time in the next year networking.

If your wife gets tenure, her mobility will go down even more. If nothing changes in the next couple of years you should expect her to stay in PA for the duration of her career. The big question here is if you can have a happy life living at her location in PA since you plan to retire much earlier than her. Now is the time to figure out the answer to that question.

Financially, it's an easy call. I would take advantage of the hot real estate market and sell the CA house. That plus consolidating your living expenses into one lower cost of living location will only accelerate your financial position.

Lastly, I would ignore the well-intentioned relationship advice. It sounds like you have spent plenty of time together and know each other well (or not, but you know that as well). I know of couples who have lived in different time zones for decades. For some relationships that would be a disaster, but for some it's fine, and for some two-career couples in time intensive careers it's a positive (they schedule everything so they can work hard and play hard). It all depends on ones' relationship and priorities.
“I am losing precious days. I am degenerating into a machine for making money. I am learning nothing in this trivial world of men. I must break away and get out into the mountains...” -- John Muir
rthouir
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:16 am

Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by rthouir »

Academic quite familiar with PA institutions here (having worked at several). Something to keep in mind is that tenure is not the job security for life that it once was, especially in the position your wife likely has. Based on the salary, I am going to guess she is in the humanities or social sciences at a low-mid tier institution in PA rather than at a Pitt, F&M, Bryn Mawr, Haverford, Penn State, etc. caliber institution, let alone a UPenn.

Such low-mid tier institutions are in for some serious pain in the years to come, whether they are private or public. We're about to hit a demographic crunch of college age students and the NE and mid-Atlantic are going to be some of the worst hit areas. PA (and Ohio) are some of the worst states in the country in terms of the number of colleges relative to the number of college-age students. Better institutions can deal with this by admitting more students and upping merit aid a bit, but lower tier institutions don't really have that option; they are already admitting all qualified students, pretty much, and spending the max $$$ on merit aid they can afford. We're in for a round of college closures in the next 10 years; indeed, we're already starting to see that happen.

Moreover, even universities that are going to survive are shutting down some humanities and social science majors, leading to the laying off of tenured faculty. Literally this morning, the Chronicle of Higher Ed ran an article on a plan for a major merger of state colleges in Pennsylvania: https://www.chronicle.com/article/a-sys ... -higher-ed Nothing in the article indicates tenured faculty layoffs, but I would be surprised if that didn't happen in the next 10 years. People think there is a lot of fat to cut in higher ed budgets, but there really isn't a huge amount. Faculty and staff salaries are far and away the biggest budget item. Staff salaries can't easily be cut, not least of all because of increasing gov. regs (even for private institutions). That means faculty are on the chopping block.

I don't mean to be overly gloomy, but this is something to keep in mind and to have a contingency plan for.
Topic Author
alex345
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:13 am

Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by alex345 »

DoTheMath wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:14 am Not only can you do this, I think you definitely should do it. I think there is no big risk here and it makes a lot of sense.

The timing is perfect in my mind. You can WFH for the next year (or two) and by then you'll know about your DW's tenure status. Either way her and your careers go, you'll be poised to stay in PA, go back to CA, or do something new.

If and when your employer recalls you, you can worry about it then. I think it's good to be comfortable with the idea of quitting, and it's a fine plan, but I don't think it is necessary for it to be carved in stone. It seems like financially you could take a pretty big pay cut for a PA job if it came to that. Also, finding a different WFH job may not be as hard as you think. Especially if you spend a little time in the next year networking.

If your wife gets tenure, her mobility will go down even more. If nothing changes in the next couple of years you should expect her to stay in PA for the duration of her career. The big question here is if you can have a happy life living at her location in PA since you plan to retire much earlier than her. Now is the time to figure out the answer to that question.

Financially, it's an easy call. I would take advantage of the hot real estate market and sell the CA house. That plus consolidating your living expenses into one lower cost of living location will only accelerate your financial position.

Lastly, I would ignore the well-intentioned relationship advice. It sounds like you have spent plenty of time together and know each other well (or not, but you know that as well). I know of couples who have lived in different time zones for decades. For some relationships that would be a disaster, but for some it's fine, and for some two-career couples in time intensive careers it's a positive (they schedule everything so they can work hard and play hard). It all depends on ones' relationship and priorities.
Thanks, agree with those points. While working from PA last fall I picked the town we are buying in specifically because it had the things that I want to do outside of work (see prev posts). If she doesn't get tenure then we can move nearly anywhere and financially well positioned. I think my managers see me as not replaceable, but HR is what I worry about.
Topic Author
alex345
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:13 am

Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by alex345 »

rthouir wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:18 am Academic quite familiar with PA institutions here (having worked at several). Something to keep in mind is that tenure is not the job security for life that it once was, especially in the position your wife likely has. Based on the salary, I am going to guess she is in the humanities or social sciences at a low-mid tier institution in PA rather than at a Pitt, F&M, Bryn Mawr, Haverford, Penn State, etc. caliber institution, let alone a UPenn.

Such low-mid tier institutions are in for some serious pain in the years to come, whether they are private or public. We're about to hit a demographic crunch of college age students and the NE and mid-Atlantic are going to be some of the worst hit areas. PA (and Ohio) are some of the worst states in the country in terms of the number of colleges relative to the number of college-age students. Better institutions can deal with this by admitting more students and upping merit aid a bit, but lower tier institutions don't really have that option; they are already admitting all qualified students, pretty much, and spending the max $$$ on merit aid they can afford. We're in for a round of college closures in the next 10 years; indeed, we're already starting to see that happen.

Moreover, even universities that are going to survive are shutting down some humanities and social science majors, leading to the laying off of tenured faculty. Literally this morning, the Chronicle of Higher Ed ran an article on a plan for a major merger of state colleges in Pennsylvania: https://www.chronicle.com/article/a-sys ... -higher-ed Nothing in the article indicates tenured faculty layoffs, but I would be surprised if that didn't happen in the next 10 years. People think there is a lot of fat to cut in higher ed budgets, but there really isn't a huge amount. Faculty and staff salaries are far and away the biggest budget item. Staff salaries can't easily be cut, not least of all because of increasing gov. regs (even for private institutions). That means faculty are on the chopping block.

I don't mean to be overly gloomy, but this is something to keep in mind and to have a contingency plan for.
COVID was tough on the school but I think student enrollment is up a little. It is in the bottom 30% of the top 100 liberal arts schools in the US.
gclancer
Posts: 808
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:34 am

Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by gclancer »

a engineer in .gov space

My guess is that you’re a good employee, but you also probably know some not as good employees. Don’t compromise your personal ethics or anything, but you might be able to drag out teleworking longer than 5 years. A middle ground would perhaps be agreeing to fly out to CA on an as needed basis, stay in a hotel, etc. Probably cheaper than maintaining two households. If you make it another 10 years to 50 you might end up qualifying for a voluntary early retirement right?
DoTheMath
Posts: 670
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:11 pm
Location: The Plains

Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by DoTheMath »

alex345 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:41 am
rthouir wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:18 am Academic quite familiar with PA institutions here (having worked at several). Something to keep in mind is that tenure is not the job security for life that it once was, especially in the position your wife likely has. Based on the salary, I am going to guess she is in the humanities or social sciences at a low-mid tier institution in PA rather than at a Pitt, F&M, Bryn Mawr, Haverford, Penn State, etc. caliber institution, let alone a UPenn.

Such low-mid tier institutions are in for some serious pain in the years to come, whether they are private or public. We're about to hit a demographic crunch of college age students and the NE and mid-Atlantic are going to be some of the worst hit areas. PA (and Ohio) are some of the worst states in the country in terms of the number of colleges relative to the number of college-age students. Better institutions can deal with this by admitting more students and upping merit aid a bit, but lower tier institutions don't really have that option; they are already admitting all qualified students, pretty much, and spending the max $$$ on merit aid they can afford. We're in for a round of college closures in the next 10 years; indeed, we're already starting to see that happen.

Moreover, even universities that are going to survive are shutting down some humanities and social science majors, leading to the laying off of tenured faculty. Literally this morning, the Chronicle of Higher Ed ran an article on a plan for a major merger of state colleges in Pennsylvania: https://www.chronicle.com/article/a-sys ... -higher-ed Nothing in the article indicates tenured faculty layoffs, but I would be surprised if that didn't happen in the next 10 years. People think there is a lot of fat to cut in higher ed budgets, but there really isn't a huge amount. Faculty and staff salaries are far and away the biggest budget item. Staff salaries can't easily be cut, not least of all because of increasing gov. regs (even for private institutions). That means faculty are on the chopping block.

I don't mean to be overly gloomy, but this is something to keep in mind and to have a contingency plan for.
COVID was tough on the school but I think student enrollment is up a little. It is in the bottom 30% of the top 100 liberal arts schools in the US.
rthouir brings up a good point. The OP should read some articles about what's happening at Ithaca College. it is worse than many, but it not an isolated example and is comparable to the DW's institution. It's pretty sobering. Covid is a big event, certainly, but there is also a coming demographic drop-off in the number of undergrads and technology/financial issues/etc. are leading to big systemic changes in higher education. I would not bet that a tenured faculty member of a mid-level liberal arts college will avoid big career changes in the next twenty years. But some version of this is true for every industry. You can't live in fear.

Fortunately, I don't think these factors change things for the OP. Both because they are basically in the CoastFI stage of their careers and because their timescale is 5 or so years where some of these big changes are unlikely to happen. Of course, a new college president could come in and decide to blow everything up in the name of modernization and efficiency, so never say never.

Not getting tenure is the bigger risk in the medium term. Even for a good performer, it is somewhat political and is never a certainty. I know several people who didn't get tenure and there was no good reason on the merits. It's rare, but can happen.
“I am losing precious days. I am degenerating into a machine for making money. I am learning nothing in this trivial world of men. I must break away and get out into the mountains...” -- John Muir
Topic Author
alex345
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:13 am

Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by alex345 »

Those things have already started to happen at DWs college. A few years ago there was a significant reduction in faculty, which was mostly done through early retirement packages. DW is in a more "core" department, which is hopefully safer than some of the departments that are being axed all over the country. In any case, we can't live in fear and we are positioned far better than most of her colleagues at work.
stoptothink
Posts: 15368
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:53 am

Re: my YOLO moment (career downshift and full-time WFH)

Post by stoptothink »

bwalling wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:37 am
politely wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:51 am There is a known phenomenon where divorce rates spike when married couples suddenly start spending more time with each other, such as when the last kid goes off to college or upon retirement. Given the amount of time you two have lived apart, if I were in your shoes, I would consider really living together for a number of years before cutting off the salary - unless you think you can retire comfortably on half of your current shared assets.
I hate to add on to this, but it's my biggest concern with the OP. The financial side is straightforward. The marital side may be harder. I'd navigate this part, and figure the money will work itself out.
My brother was an oil & gas contractor for 15yrs. Basically saw his wife and kids for a week every other month, for over a decade. He used to talk about similar situations, with his colleagues. He's been out of work for a little over a year now...I genuinely doubt they make it another 6 months. Heck, my wife and I have joked (I think) about it since we've been WFH (together) the past year. Sounds like OP and his wife have lived almost their entire married life apart; this would be a very large life-change, finances being only a minor concern.
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