Pros/Cons for Permanent WFH Roles/Jobs

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heapq
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Pros/Cons for Permanent WFH Roles/Jobs

Post by heapq »

Because the virus is so political, I'm issuing a blanket statement not to discuss this on the thread. Instead assume the following assumptions are fixed:

I may never want to return to office as long as COVID-19 is out there, and I'm projecting maybe 5+ years until COVID-19 dies down.

Thus far my employer (big tech) has been very accommodating with 100% WFH, but I fear the end will come soon, as they remain committed to reopening. As a side note, most tech employers will likely move to a hybrid scheme where you come to office for 2-3 days and WFH the rest... this hybrid method does not meet the above-listed requirements.

As such, I am now seriously contemplating trying to get a job in a >= 50% WFH company. This is problematic at so many levels, here's my thoughts:
- If I don't join a company that is at least >= 50% WFH, defined as more than half are fully remote (i.e. never go into office), which is not the same as hybrid reopening... then those who are remote will suffer career wise. Because of lack of presence, water cooler conversations, etc... Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, but in general a fully remote worker will be a 2nd class citizen and career growth will suffer.
- At the FAANG-level companies, only Twitter seems to be intent on 100% WFH... at least from publicly available information. Facebook also seems to be planning for 50% of their staff to be fully remote, although this is unclear if it will still result in a 2-class system among FTEs. Everyone else is planning to get majority of the people back in office. This also limits my career opportunities, and I'm targeting tier-1 FAANG-level companies in my next search... and if I restrict myself to a subset of FAAANG which are already tough as nails to get into... I'm seriously handicapping myself.
- Obviously increased expenses of WFH... since all my bills have went up. Also if you're working at a tech company that provides food, that's easily $500/mth of extra costs in food. The lack of commute might offset the extra costs somewhat, but there are also quality-of-life issues that suffer when WFH instead of being at the office.
- I'm also trying to move up to the Staff Level (L6), which is the level where leadership starts to matter, and this will be difficult to execute remotely. Also have manager aspirations, and I may have to scrap that because of this.

I don't see any upsides to a fully remote position, but I have to play the hand I was dealt. Life sucks... ok, get over it. But... I also wanted to be sure that I am not missing anything out major in my decision making process.

Personal factors that goes into the equation:
- No kids, no spouse, I plan to fatFIRE ASAP, not anywhere close... but if I maintain L5/L6 salary at FAANG for another decade, I should be able to hit coastFIRE, which by then I can downgrade to a lower tier company and not care as much about TC or career progression.
- A very career oriented person, and I know I need to see my level, title or TC increase over time. Don't really care about WLB. So all the "flexibility" of remote work really doesn't do much for me.

I'm sure there are people out there who are seriously considering 100% remote/WFH positions, but maybe for different reasons. Regardless, how do you factor in the hit you're going to take to your career?
Last edited by heapq on Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tingting1013
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Re: Pros/Cons for Permanent WFH Roles/Jobs

Post by Tingting1013 »

DM me, I have a job for you.
Nathan Drake
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Re: Pros/Cons for Permanent WFH Roles/Jobs

Post by Nathan Drake »

You need to figure out what you really want. From your post you seem all over the place.

You’re presumably making a ridiculous amount of money as a L5/L6 in BigTech....is progressing further (much more difficult at that stage) truly worth it? If so, WFH may be limiting.

If you care more about work life balance, lifestyle, and maintaining your current career rather than aggressively growing it, then finding a WFH solution should be out there. However, maybe not at a very restricted pool of companies you’ve listed.

If you’re already at a L6, why are you not closer to coastFI already? What’s the point of reaching FatFi? A decade more is a very long time to grind it out in a stressful job, and that only gets you to coastFI...there should be no reason you can’t take a step back NOW if that’s what you truly want, but it seems money/ego are in the way more than anything else.

You claim WLB isn’t important, so why do you want to WFH? Are you that afraid of COVID for the next 5 years...? Seems like a ridiculous way to live your life

Some soul searching is probably in order...
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Topic Author
heapq
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Re: Pros/Cons for Permanent WFH Roles/Jobs

Post by heapq »

Nathan Drake wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:55 am You need to figure out what you really want. From your post you seem all over the place.

You’re presumably making a ridiculous amount of money as a L5/L6 in BigTech....is progressing further (much more difficult at that stage) truly worth it? If so, WFH may be limiting.

If you care more about work life balance, lifestyle, and maintaining your current career rather than aggressively growing it, then finding a WFH solution should be out there. However, maybe not at a very restricted pool of companies you’ve listed.

If you’re already at a L6, why are you not closer to coastFI already? What’s the point of reaching FatFi? A decade more is a very long time to grind it out in a stressful job, and that only gets you to coastFI...there should be no reason you can’t take a step back NOW if that’s what you truly want, but it seems money/ego are in the way more than anything else.

You claim WLB isn’t important, so why do you want to WFH? Are you that afraid of COVID for the next 5 years...? Seems like a ridiculous way to live your life

Some soul searching is probably in order...
Yes, I'm balancing very paradoxical constraints simultaneously.

To be fair, I am not at L5/L6 at a top tier company right now, I'm L5+ (close to L6) at a mid-tier company. My career goal has always been to retire at L7, with L8 as the stretch goal, and L6 would be the minimum I would be satisfied with. So I still consider myself as climbing the ladder and not coasting anytime soon (not for the next 10 years anyway... that's a promise I made to myself). So I'm trying to figure out if this is a "no win" situation where I can't (or it will be extremely hard) to advance my career as a fully remote employee.

As to why I'm not near to coastFI... not everyone was fortunate enough to take the most optimal path. I've only started this career very recently.

Unlike most engineers, I actually do *like* my job and I don't find it stressful or a grind. But at the same time getting enough to coastFI is also to give me options in life.

And let's keep politics off the discussion, thanks.
Nathan Drake
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Re: Pros/Cons for Permanent WFH Roles/Jobs

Post by Nathan Drake »

heapq wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:10 am
Nathan Drake wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:55 am You need to figure out what you really want. From your post you seem all over the place.

You’re presumably making a ridiculous amount of money as a L5/L6 in BigTech....is progressing further (much more difficult at that stage) truly worth it? If so, WFH may be limiting.

If you care more about work life balance, lifestyle, and maintaining your current career rather than aggressively growing it, then finding a WFH solution should be out there. However, maybe not at a very restricted pool of companies you’ve listed.

If you’re already at a L6, why are you not closer to coastFI already? What’s the point of reaching FatFi? A decade more is a very long time to grind it out in a stressful job, and that only gets you to coastFI...there should be no reason you can’t take a step back NOW if that’s what you truly want, but it seems money/ego are in the way more than anything else.

You claim WLB isn’t important, so why do you want to WFH? Are you that afraid of COVID for the next 5 years...? Seems like a ridiculous way to live your life

Some soul searching is probably in order...
Yes, I'm balancing very paradoxical constraints simultaneously.

To be fair, I am not at L5/L6 at a top tier company right now, I'm L5+ (close to L6) at a mid-tier company. My career goal has always been to retire at L7, with L8 as the stretch goal, and L6 would be the minimum I would be satisfied with. So I still consider myself as climbing the ladder and not coasting anytime soon (not for the next 10 years anyway... that's a promise I made to myself). So I'm trying to figure out if this is a "no win" situation where I can't (or it will be extremely hard) to advance my career as a fully remote employee.

As to why I'm not near to coastFI... not everyone was fortunate enough to take the most optimal path. I've only started this career very recently.

Unlike most engineers, I actually do *like* my job and I don't find it stressful or a grind. But at the same time getting enough to coastFI is also to give me options in life.

And let's keep politics off the discussion, thanks.
Strange to just recently start this career yet you’re already a L5+? I’m not at BigTech but at BigEng around that level and am pretty much at full FI. My job is no longer providing much interest to me, but I want a few more years of savings for security, so I am looking at a full time WFH.

I have no desire to climb up the L6+ point because in my industry the pay isn’t much better and stress is worse. After working significant hours for over a decade I’m burned out and looking for optimizing WLB above all else.

It sounds like your goals are different and WFH will not be optimal. I suggest getting the vaccine(s) over the
coming years and wearing a mask if fear of COVID is a major driver of wanting a fully remote position.
20% VOO | 20% VXUS | 20% AVUV | 20% AVDV | 20% AVES
bstewie
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Re: Pros/Cons for Permanent WFH Roles/Jobs

Post by bstewie »

OP, really depends on how important leadership is to you. Agree you will need to be more available onsite for certain roles. I am very happy as a core contributor and have been WFH long before the pandemic. Second class citizenship occurs more easily when WFH, but if you are actively engaging coworkers, truly delivering on commitments in a meaningful way, and drop in once in a blue moon (they’re paying well enough for you to out of pocket a flight and hotel a couple times a year)... I think you’re over exaggerating it quite a bit. Keep in mind, the majority of the rest of the world pays for their own food with money earned in their paycheck, WFH or not. Not sure what other quality of life issues you’re hinting at, my quality of life has never been better. I don’t factor WFH as a hit to my career. My employer actively encourages time slots during work hours for my open source interests which only further my career.
Yarlonkol12
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Re: Pros/Cons for Permanent WFH Roles/Jobs

Post by Yarlonkol12 »

Based on your post, I think I know which bigtech your at. If you still like the company and your job, WFH aside, why would you bail based on your assumption of the future? You have no idea how many will actually want to return, how often, and how long a transition like that will take. Your also not the only staff with advancement concerns

The faang stamp on your resume is a fast pass to interviews with any company you want to work for. I would have zero urgancy in your shoes. I would monitor the situation and wait to make a decision until you have enough data to do so
My posts are for entertainment purposes only.
London
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Re: Pros/Cons for Permanent WFH Roles/Jobs

Post by London »

There are trade offs in life. If you want to stay home, you will probably trade some career progression unless you are a unicorn employee. That’s ok.

Those with spouses or kids have to accept these types of trade offs as well.

No one can have it all.
hoofaman
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Re: Pros/Cons for Permanent WFH Roles/Jobs

Post by hoofaman »

Here is my take

Pros of 100% WFH:

1.) Better collaboration between globally distributed teams, because everyone is remote, no offline conversations are missed. Everyone is on the same level
2.) No more unnecessary commuting is better for the environment and reduces traffic congestion in your local area
3.) No time is wasted commuting, which for many people can be 1-2 hours a day, as well as significant savings in related expenses
4.) Easier to balance work/life responsibilities, more opportunities to spend time with family
5.) More productive home office setup, private office, no more counter productive open office non-sense
6.) In the future, more efficient use of real estate as offices become residential buildings

Cons of 100% WFH:

1.) Fewer opportunities for non-work related social interactions while at work. If this is a concern for you, consider just getting involved with your community instead

Based on your post, I am not sure you know what you really want. If your really so ambitious that your career is everything to you, why are you grinding it out as a grunt at a big tech company? Go start your own company that is 100% remote
Topic Author
heapq
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Re: Pros/Cons for Permanent WFH Roles/Jobs

Post by heapq »

Nathan Drake wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:30 am
Strange to just recently start this career yet you’re already a L5+? I’m not at BigTech but at BigEng around that level and am pretty much at full FI. My job is no longer providing much interest to me, but I want a few more years of savings for security, so I am looking at a full time WFH.

I have no desire to climb up the L6+ point because in my industry the pay isn’t much better and stress is worse. After working significant hours for over a decade I’m burned out and looking for optimizing WLB above all else.

It sounds like your goals are different and WFH will not be optimal. I suggest getting the vaccine(s) over the
coming years and wearing a mask if fear of COVID is a major driver of wanting a fully remote position.
I've worked almost 10 year in another career, and when I transitioned to tech I was hired at L5 (Senior). I'm planning to go up for L6 (Staff) either this or next year. So from a financial perspective, I've not been making much money until recently.
Topic Author
heapq
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Re: Pros/Cons for Permanent WFH Roles/Jobs

Post by heapq »

bstewie wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:57 am OP, really depends on how important leadership is to you. Agree you will need to be more available onsite for certain roles. I am very happy as a core contributor and have been WFH long before the pandemic. Second class citizenship occurs more easily when WFH, but if you are actively engaging coworkers, truly delivering on commitments in a meaningful way, and drop in once in a blue moon (they’re paying well enough for you to out of pocket a flight and hotel a couple times a year)... I think you’re over exaggerating it quite a bit. Keep in mind, the majority of the rest of the world pays for their own food with money earned in their paycheck, WFH or not. Not sure what other quality of life issues you’re hinting at, my quality of life has never been better. I don’t factor WFH as a hit to my career. My employer actively encourages time slots during work hours for my open source interests which only further my career.
Interesting that you brought up leadership. The next level requires some leadership, but it can be done as IC or Manager. I've been planning my transition to Management as IMO it's easier to scale and demonstrate impact and it makes >L6 promotion faster... but now that WFH/full-remote is a factor I wonder if it's easier to advance the career ladder as an IC? I keep on reading how the entire remote thing makes it harder for managers to manage people.
Topic Author
heapq
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Re: Pros/Cons for Permanent WFH Roles/Jobs

Post by heapq »

tiburblium wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:34 am Based on your post, I think I know which bigtech your at. If you still like the company and your job, WFH aside, why would you bail based on your assumption of the future? You have no idea how many will actually want to return, how often, and how long a transition like that will take. Your also not the only staff with advancement concerns

The faang stamp on your resume is a fast pass to interviews with any company you want to work for. I would have zero urgancy in your shoes. I would monitor the situation and wait to make a decision until you have enough data to do so
Not bailing, making plans. Also my 4-year term is also up, and WFH makes it easy to do interviews without getting noticed! I'm just trying to figure out what my game plan is. Up until recently, I've totally struck off companies that do not have a major office in my city... (the idea of going full remote fallout style for the next 5 years is a new one, but increasingly more likely scenario), so I'm playing devil's advocate with myself.
adestefan
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Re: Pros/Cons for Permanent WFH Roles/Jobs

Post by adestefan »

Step 1 is to realize that your job is not your personal identity.

Once you get past that you can better assess what you want for yourself.
stan1
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Re: Pros/Cons for Permanent WFH Roles/Jobs

Post by stan1 »

I don't work in Big Tech but what I'm seeing after 13 months of 100% telework in a larger organization are increasingly frequent "communications breakdowns" resulting in a lot of emotion and project failures. I realize that this is not everyone's experience. Some people might have a job that works very well in an independent model that supports transactional engagements with others. Not all jobs are like that. I'm also increasingly convinced that a percentage of the workforce (managers and non-managers) will not be able to adapt a 100% remote way of working. Will be laid off or resign eventually. For every 1%er there are 99 others. If your company only hires other 1%ers your experience is going to be different than those companies who can't do that.

So I can't give you an answer other than you'd really have to assess your job duties, managers, and company culture to know if this is realistic. Tim Cook has said he supports hybrid because collaboration and innovation are spontaneous and people need to be together at least part of the time to be spontaneous. Maybe he just has a big round building he needs to fill up to justify its expense. I realize some won't agree with this and will cite a personal situation where they have been spontaneous remotely and successfully -- hey, I'm quoting Tim so take it up with him! :sharebeer
bstewie
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Re: Pros/Cons for Permanent WFH Roles/Jobs

Post by bstewie »

heapq wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:41 pm
bstewie wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:57 am OP, really depends on how important leadership is to you. Agree you will need to be more available onsite for certain roles. I am very happy as a core contributor and have been WFH long before the pandemic. Second class citizenship occurs more easily when WFH, but if you are actively engaging coworkers, truly delivering on commitments in a meaningful way, and drop in once in a blue moon (they’re paying well enough for you to out of pocket a flight and hotel a couple times a year)... I think you’re over exaggerating it quite a bit. Keep in mind, the majority of the rest of the world pays for their own food with money earned in their paycheck, WFH or not. Not sure what other quality of life issues you’re hinting at, my quality of life has never been better. I don’t factor WFH as a hit to my career. My employer actively encourages time slots during work hours for my open source interests which only further my career.
Interesting that you brought up leadership. The next level requires some leadership, but it can be done as IC or Manager. I've been planning my transition to Management as IMO it's easier to scale and demonstrate impact and it makes >L6 promotion faster... but now that WFH/full-remote is a factor I wonder if it's easier to advance the career ladder as an IC? I keep on reading how the entire remote thing makes it harder for managers to manage people.
I’ve definitely worked on and with teams that would’ve been crippled by full-time remote work, but I think it really boils down to the manager and specific people on their team. The strongest teams I’ve worked on delegated to the manager, not the other way around. I would imagine those teams would function stronger full-time remote, but they are not the norm. Larger teams typically have more variance in skill, more complacency, etc at most well established companies. In that environment I could see the manager having a more difficult time, especially if there is complacency on the team.
HawkeyePierce
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Re: Pros/Cons for Permanent WFH Roles/Jobs

Post by HawkeyePierce »

I'm an L5 at one of the companies you mentioned. You're seriously overestimating the difficulty of getting into these companies.

In my case, I've been working at a satellite office for years anyways, so from an advancement POV, WFH hasn't been much different. I've always been a thousand miles from HQ. Advancement is more difficult in that situation, especially since L6+ usually requires a lot of cross-company impact.

At least a few of the SV giants are serious about making WFH a true equal option, but I expect that to be a rocky transition. The past year has mostly been about treading water with performance reviews suspended, so I'm not sure anyone quite knows how it's going to shake out yet.
shess
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Re: Pros/Cons for Permanent WFH Roles/Jobs

Post by shess »

HawkeyePierce wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:56 am At least a few of the SV giants are serious about making WFH a true equal option, but I expect that to be a rocky transition. The past year has mostly been about treading water with performance reviews suspended, so I'm not sure anyone quite knows how it's going to shake out yet.
I left one of the major silicon-valley giants because for the entire decade and a half that I was there, the trend was towards packing workers into worse and worse working conditions without regard to how that affected their work satisfaction. The entire time was a continuous stream of lip service to "synergy" and press releases about their amazing office environments (which were remote sites which bore no resemblance to HQ). Under coronavirus, they really had no choice but to make WFH work, but I see no reason to expect that they'll keep to it once it becomes a choice, again.

I give Twitter half a chance, because of Dorsey, and also because they aren't in the top ranks so they have more latitude to work with. Maybe Apple, because they had a lot of this somewhat dialed in before the rest of the FAANG were born.

Don't get me wrong, personally I view WFH as a great option, I really enjoyed the nearly a decade when I was doing it. I just don't hold out hopes that it will revolutionize big tech.
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