“Running the Numbers”

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.
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Actmck3
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“Running the Numbers”

Post by Actmck3 »

Hello all,
I have been listening to a fellow named Jim Lange who is on You Tube. He is a attorney and a CPA. He does financial planning and offers to “run the numbers” relative to a individual or family financial situation and where you stand in regards to retirement. This would include things like whether to convert to a Roth, when to take SS, tax planning , etc..His fee is $10,000 to “run the numbers”. This cost is not for him to manage the money or its investments, it is to provide financial direction and tax efficiencies. Personally, he seems very honest and sincere. he has been around a long time and actually interviewed John Bogle for a financial show he produced in the day. The cost is what is holding me back. This seems like a lot of money for financial plan direction to me...but....I wanted to hear from you all as to your suggestions, thoughts or recommendations regarding developing a financial plan which is tailored to the individual family.
Nivek
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by Nivek »

Can’t tell if this is a serious post but someone asking for $10K to run the numbers is neither honest nor sincere.
UpperNwGuy
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by UpperNwGuy »

You can run your own numbers. Why pay someone to do it for you?
JohnFiscal
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by JohnFiscal »

For what it's worth, there's a 5:46 video on YouTube of Jim Lange interviewing John Bogle back in 2013, discussing topics including Bogle's then-new book "The Clash of Cultures".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0aK0eBV4aA

No comment on his $10K offer but it seems he may have a number of worthwhile videos. At least they're generally short, 5-10 minutes.

Disclaimer: I never heard of Lange until today. To my knowledge or recollection

(oh, scrolling way down in his profile page there are quite a few videos with Bogle)

Edit to add: listening to a video (from a live presentation) where he points out "We are a fiduciary advisor, meaning we have both a moral and legal obligation to do what is in your [client's] best interest"
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FIREchief
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by FIREchief »

I wouldn’t pay that guy $10 to run my numbers. I am familiar with his messages.
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.
PowderDay9
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by PowderDay9 »

Cost for Jim Lange to "run the numbers": $10,000

Cost to post on bogleheads and have them run the numbers: $0
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Metsfan91
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by Metsfan91 »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:21 pm You can run your own numbers. Why pay someone to do it for you?
Better yet, let Bogleheads run the number for you.
"Know what you own, and know why you own it." — Peter Lynch
bsteiner
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by bsteiner »

I know Jim Lange. He's a good guy. His books (more for the public) and articles (for professionals) make some good points. I've been a guest on his radio show, https://paytaxeslater.com/radio-show/, several times.

However, as others have suggested, you might first post your questions here and see if anyone has any helpful comments.
fortunefavored
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by fortunefavored »

Unless you have a VERY complex situation (unusual trust arrangements, multiple business interests, foreign entities, dubious tax shelters, etc) and the corresponding net worth (20-100M?) I cannot imagine what spending $10,000 would add.

Maybe if you spent several years arguing with a spouse about retiring, and you needed an airtight stamp of approval? Not really a value proposition but could be money well spent. :)
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Jim Lange can probably run numbers better than I can for some of the variables (expected growth of deferred accounts, taxable accounts, etc).

Otoh, he has no better idea than I do about so many of the important variables:
How long will I live?
How long will my wife live?
What will our medical expenses be in future?
What will tax rates be for MFJ in future?
What will tax rates be for Single in future?
What tax brackets will our heirs be in?
Will tax treatment of Roth change? When? How dramatically?
What will change in terms of how trusts are treated?
What will change in terms of Inherited IRAs?

His guesses might be better than mine, but not $10k better.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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David Jay
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by David Jay »

He will ask for the same information that we ask for, so why not collect it now and post it here first. If you still want to spend ten grand with this guy after posting here you will have all the numbers in one place.

Link to “Asking Portfolio Questions” format: https://bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6212
It's not an engineering problem - Hersh Shefrin | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius
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burritoLover
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by burritoLover »

I would go with Rick Ferri - I think he charges like $900 for your first consultation.
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David Jay
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by David Jay »

Looking at your earlier “Roth” thread, you have a pretty simple situation. All living expenses covered by pension and SS, all retirement funds in tax-deferred (1.7M). With your desire to leave the maximum legacy, all you really need to do is figure out a “good enough” Roth conversion strategy.

I say “good enough” because there are a lot of future numbers that we can’t know. For instance, we do not know the marginal tax rates for each daughter at the time of your passing. We do not know how much growth your portfolio will produce. And so on.

If you just tell us your pension and SS income, we can probably get to a “good enough” plan for your Roth conversions. For infinitely less money (math joke) than Mr. Lange, who also does not know the future.
It's not an engineering problem - Hersh Shefrin | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius
hudson
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by hudson »

Actmck3 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:10 pm Hello all,
I have been listening to a fellow named Jim Lange who is on You Tube. He is a attorney and a CPA. He does financial planning and offers to “run the numbers” relative to a individual or family financial situation and where you stand in regards to retirement. This would include things like whether to convert to a Roth, when to take SS, tax planning , etc..His fee is $10,000 to “run the numbers”. This cost is not for him to manage the money or its investments, it is to provide financial direction and tax efficiencies. Personally, he seems very honest and sincere. he has been around a long time and actually interviewed John Bogle for a financial show he produced in the day. The cost is what is holding me back. This seems like a lot of money for financial plan direction to me...but....I wanted to hear from you all as to your suggestions, thoughts or recommendations regarding developing a financial plan which is tailored to the individual family.
I would start reading Boglehead books until I had a good feel for a financial plan. Then I would use this forum to tweak my plan. Then you would have a great feel for where to start and where to finish.
I would use the $10K to max out Ibonds for the year.
I like the authors Larimore, Ferri, Swedroe, and W. Bernstein.
Firemenot
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by Firemenot »

10k is outrageous. My guess is he’d spend no more than a couple of hours “running your numbers”.
michaeljc70
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by michaeljc70 »

It sounds like hiring a well known artist to paint the walls a solid color in your home.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by TomatoTomahto »

michaeljc70 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:45 am It sounds like hiring a well known artist to paint the walls a solid color in your home.
I enjoy a good analogy. Well done Sir (I made that assumption based on your username; if in error, apologies).
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Topic Author
Actmck3
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by Actmck3 »

burritoLover wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:29 am I would go with Rick Ferri - I think he charges like $900 for your first consultation.
Thank you
Topic Author
Actmck3
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by Actmck3 »

David Jay wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:34 am Looking at your earlier “Roth” thread, you have a pretty simple situation. All living expenses covered by pension and SS, all retirement funds in tax-deferred (1.7M). With your desire to leave the maximum legacy, all you really need to do is figure out a “good enough” Roth conversion strategy.

I say “good enough” because there are a lot of future numbers that we can’t know. For instance, we do not know the marginal tax rates for each daughter at the time of your passing. We do not know how much growth your portfolio will produce. And so on.

If you just tell us your pension and SS income, we can probably get to a “good enough” plan for your Roth conversions. For infinitely less money (math joke) than Mr. Lange, who also does not know the future.
Thank you David Jay.

Our pension and SS right now are 160K/year but will go up when my wife begins to collect her full pension and her SS to 200K/annum. (In 4 years)
Firemenot
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by Firemenot »

Actmck3 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:58 am
David Jay wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:34 am Looking at your earlier “Roth” thread, you have a pretty simple situation. All living expenses covered by pension and SS, all retirement funds in tax-deferred (1.7M). With your desire to leave the maximum legacy, all you really need to do is figure out a “good enough” Roth conversion strategy.

I say “good enough” because there are a lot of future numbers that we can’t know. For instance, we do not know the marginal tax rates for each daughter at the time of your passing. We do not know how much growth your portfolio will produce. And so on.

If you just tell us your pension and SS income, we can probably get to a “good enough” plan for your Roth conversions. For infinitely less money (math joke) than Mr. Lange, who also does not know the future.
Thank you David Jay.

Our pension and SS right now are 160K/year but will go up when my wife begins to collect her full pension and her SS to 200K/annum. (In 4 years)
Wow you guys have quite the luxury with all that pension/SS money. Sounds like you can’t go wrong.
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galving
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by galving »

Actmck3 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:10 pm Hello all,
I have been listening to a fellow named Jim Lange who is on You Tube. He is a attorney and a CPA. He does financial planning and offers to “run the numbers” relative to a individual or family financial situation and where you stand in regards to retirement. This would include things like whether to convert to a Roth, when to take SS, tax planning , etc..His fee is $10,000 to “run the numbers”. This cost is not for him to manage the money or its investments, it is to provide financial direction and tax efficiencies. Personally, he seems very honest and sincere. he has been around a long time and actually interviewed John Bogle for a financial show he produced in the day. The cost is what is holding me back. This seems like a lot of money for financial plan direction to me...but....I wanted to hear from you all as to your suggestions, thoughts or recommendations regarding developing a financial plan which is tailored to the individual family.
$10k is a factor of magnitude too high to 'run the numbers'.
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JoMoney
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by JoMoney »

I thought "Running the Numbers" were the operators of a type of underground lottery racket.
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham
CurlyDave
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by CurlyDave »

JoMoney wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:15 am I thought "Running the Numbers" were the operators of a type of underground lottery racket.
Actually "Numbers Runners" are low level employees of a number's game.

How do I know? I grew up in a time and place where fingermen, bagmen, and torpedos were considered to be minor civic officials.
Answering a question is easy -- asking the right question is the hard part.
diy60
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by diy60 »

I went to a financial planner to "run the numbers" about 2 years before I retired. Some of the info I received was useful, most of it was not useful. It cost me about $1K, but in hindsight I don't consider it a total waste. It really kick-started my deep-dive into understanding the basic underlying logic, strategies, and math. However I would not spend $10K, that's orders of magnitude higher than I could tolerate. I recommend posting questions here first, and then perhaps looking elsewhere if it increases your comfort level. Best of luck.
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BolderBoy
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by BolderBoy »

PowderDay9 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:16 pm Cost for Jim Lange to "run the numbers": $10,000

Cost to post on bogleheads and have them run the numbers: $0
+1. This. Even if it took you 10 hours to post your situation in the forum preferred format (it won't), you'd be making $1000/hr.
"Never underestimate one's capacity to overestimate one's abilities" - The Dunning-Kruger Effect
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David Jay
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by David Jay »

Actmck3 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:58 am
David Jay wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:34 am Looking at your earlier “Roth” thread, you have a pretty simple situation. All living expenses covered by pension and SS, all retirement funds in tax-deferred (1.7M). With your desire to leave the maximum legacy, all you really need to do is figure out a “good enough” Roth conversion strategy.

I say “good enough” because there are a lot of future numbers that we can’t know. For instance, we do not know the marginal tax rates for each daughter at the time of your passing. We do not know how much growth your portfolio will produce. And so on.

If you just tell us your pension and SS income, we can probably get to a “good enough” plan for your Roth conversions. For infinitely less money (math joke) than Mr. Lange, who also does not know the future.
Thank you David Jay.

Our pension and SS right now are 160K/year but will go up when my wife begins to collect her full pension and her SS to 200K/annum. (In 4 years)
I take it that optimizing your legacy is your key concern, and that centers around how and when to do Roth conversions. I think we can work through your Roth conversion issue with the numbers that you gave above. How about it we do it back on the other thread, because that thread title is more in line with the advice that will be given. Link here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=337660
It's not an engineering problem - Hersh Shefrin | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius
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FIREchief
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Re: “Running the Numbers”

Post by FIREchief »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:48 am
michaeljc70 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:45 am It sounds like hiring a well known artist to paint the walls a solid color in your home.
I enjoy a good analogy. Well done Sir (I made that assumption based on your username; if in error, apologies).
+1. Well done indeed. :P
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.
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