Job offer advice needed

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L1tt1eMinon
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Job offer advice needed

Post by L1tt1eMinon »

Hi all,

I have an job offer 1 which I really like the company and the salary negotiation is fair. We agreed on a number.

Job offer 2 came back and was 20k more.

Question is
1- should I even tell job offer 1 about offer 2? Even after I agreed if they gave me X I would sign? Is it unethical?
2- will it ruin chances of offer revoked?
3- any advice would greatly appreciated
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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

just heard this:
https://themoth.org/stories/double-whammy
Aditya Dakshinamourtay learns a lesson about negotiating.
It's hard to accept the truth when the lies were exactly what you wanted to hear. Investing is simple, but not easy. Buy, hold & rebalance low cost index funds & manage taxable events. Asking Portfolio Questions | Wiki
jack.bauer
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by jack.bauer »

Looks like you want to accept first offer. So:

If first offer was 20k and second offer was 40k, maybe consider acceping the second company’s offer.

If the first offer was for 200k and second offer was for 220k, maybe provide info about second offer to first company and see what they say. As in soft negotiation. No harm if they dont match. Dont think they take it personally.

If first offer was for 400k and second offer was for 420k, just take the first offer.
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L1tt1eMinon
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by L1tt1eMinon »

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:30 pm just heard this:
https://themoth.org/stories/double-whammy
Aditya Dakshinamourtay learns a lesson about negotiating.
Very insightful. However for me, there is no offer letter yet.
The convo went like what’s the number you would be interested and we arrived at a number and she said she get back to me.

She is aware of my other pursuits. I made her aware of it and I would be expecting another offer soon. I believe she wanted to get ahead of it but at same time job 2 called with discussion of the salary that’s 20k more than offer 2. I want to take offer 1, I’m just wondering if is worth mentioning it when offer 1 comes back confirming that she can get me that number?
Topic Author
L1tt1eMinon
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by L1tt1eMinon »

jack.bauer wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:40 pm Looks like you want to accept first offer. So:

If first offer was 20k and second offer was 40k, maybe consider acceping the second company’s offer.

If the first offer was for 200k and second offer was for 220k, maybe provide info about second offer to first company and see what they say. As in soft negotiation. No harm if they dont match. Dont think they take it personally.

If first offer was for 400k and second offer was for 420k, just take the first offer.
Thanks for your reply. I see where you’re coming from.

My situation is your second example where that 20k does make a slight difference. I’m worried I would upset the person when she comes back saying she can get me the number and now have to go back? Would I come off as greedy or selfish? How would I even start the convo? “Thanks for confirming that salary but I got offer Y”? Do I ask if they can match or say anything? Or she would know I’m implying if they can match?
boogiehead
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by boogiehead »

L1tt1eMinon wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:11 pm
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:30 pm just heard this:
https://themoth.org/stories/double-whammy
Aditya Dakshinamourtay learns a lesson about negotiating.
Very insightful. However for me, there is no offer letter yet.
The convo went like what’s the number you would be interested and we arrived at a number and she said she get back to me.

She is aware of my other pursuits. I made her aware of it and I would be expecting another offer soon. I believe she wanted to get ahead of it but at same time job 2 called with discussion of the salary that’s 20k more than offer 2. I want to take offer 1, I’m just wondering if is worth mentioning it when offer 1 comes back confirming that she can get me that number?
If you didn't officially sign the offer and especially if you let the 1st hiring manager know that you potentially have other offers coming in I see no harm in asking to see if they can match the offer you got from the 2nd offer as that's the "market price" for your services. The worst thing they can do is say "sorry we can't" which happened to me before, but they tried to sweeten the offer a bit by giving me a sign-on bonus which I was glad to take as part of the negotiation.
lisarothchildco
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by lisarothchildco »

It really depends on the percentage gained. If you're making 40k, 60k is 50% more, if you're making 200k, 220k isn't only 10%.

You also have to consider commute times, how many hours you'll work, 401k matching, Health Ins costs, and if can you leverage the job for something even better down the road.

The other option is just email her the letter w/ the other offer and see if they can increase their offer. Jobs offers usually come in groupings because it take several months to get through HR screens, Interviews.... I can think of multiple occasion of this happening to me. Best of luck!
Thegame14
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by Thegame14 »

If you accepted, IMO, you now have two options, take job offer #2 and burn the bridge at Job#1, or keep your word and stay with job #1 and say nothing about other offer being higher. IMO there is absolutely ZERO option of going back to job #1 after having accepted and trying to tell them you have another offer that is $20K higher and asking them to match. You are new, you haven't even started and this looks greedy, tacky and all about you. I would think if you did this, Job #1 would say, consider our offer revoked, enjoy job #2.
Nyc10036
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by Nyc10036 »

No offer letter yet from company #1?

To me, you don't have a job offer.
And you may not get a job offer.
It may that what you think of as an offer is actually HR getting numbers to discuss with the hiring manager.

Was the "her" you spoke to HR or the hiring manager?

Given what you have outlined so far, I would let company #1 know that there is an offer that is $20K higer.

Do you have an official offer letter from company #2?
jack.bauer
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by jack.bauer »

Yeah agree with nyc above. Especially if salary negotiations for job 1 is recruiting/HR. They do this 10 times a week. If hiring manager, tread a bit more carefully but still do it. For HM, you will have a long term relation to think about and they don't negotiate as much as a specialist.

I would suggest saying something like:

“Was ready to sign with your company as soon as I got the formal offer. However, in the meanwhile, I have gotten another compelling offer for 20k more so that’s making me give it a consideration as my responsibility is provide the max for my family and their future. I would love to still sign with your company as I love the opportunity and team quite a bit better. Is there anything you can do to match my offer?”

If you are comfortable, give your word that you will sign today if a match is provided. Obviously say this only if you will even if job2 comes back with another increase.
Last edited by jack.bauer on Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
jack.bauer
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by jack.bauer »

Thegame14 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:20 am If you accepted, IMO, you now have two options, take job offer #2 and burn the bridge at Job#1, or keep your word and stay with job #1 and say nothing about other offer being higher. IMO there is absolutely ZERO option of going back to job #1 after having accepted and trying to tell them you have another offer that is $20K higher and asking them to match. You are new, you haven't even started and this looks greedy, tacky and all about you. I would think if you did this, Job #1 would say, consider our offer revoked, enjoy job #2.

Hard disagree. He has not accepted job 1. Has not even got offer letter.
Nyc10036
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by Nyc10036 »

jack.bauer wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:55 am
Thegame14 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:20 am If you accepted, IMO, you now have two options, take job offer #2 and burn the bridge at Job#1, or keep your word and stay with job #1 and say nothing about other offer being higher. IMO there is absolutely ZERO option of going back to job #1 after having accepted and trying to tell them you have another offer that is $20K higher and asking them to match. You are new, you haven't even started and this looks greedy, tacky and all about you. I would think if you did this, Job #1 would say, consider our offer revoked, enjoy job #2.

Hard disagree. He has not accepted job 1. Has not even got offer letter.
Agree.
I think the OP misconstrued what happened.

Five years ago, I went for an on-site interview.
A week or so later, I have a long phone call with HR with discussion of salary etc.
HR had even sent me an electronic link to the company's benefits material.
Then a few days later, I receive the generic rejection email from their website.
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vanbogle59
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by vanbogle59 »

Thegame14 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:20 am If you accepted, IMO, you now have two options, take job offer #2 and burn the bridge at Job#1, or keep your word and stay with job #1 and say nothing about other offer being higher. IMO there is absolutely ZERO option of going back to job #1 after having accepted and trying to tell them you have another offer that is $20K higher and asking them to match. You are new, you haven't even started and this looks greedy, tacky and all about you. I would think if you did this, Job #1 would say, consider our offer revoked, enjoy job #2.
Ah, capitalism.
If you are going to work at a non-profit (e.g. a monastery), I could see bringing up the subject of money might show you are a bad fit for the position.
But does the company you are applying to report profits? To investors? Do they set prices on their products to reap the rewards of their investment?

I have been an employee for 40 years. Sometimes my company wanted me to think of the place as my family. I politely disagreed.
Companies have a fiduciary obligation to pay people only what they are worth. It's my decision if I'm willing to live with what they are offering.

Maybe there are other reasons I would choose a position that paid less. (I've done this a number of times, actually.)
But this is the bottom line: In a healthy market, price discovery helps both sides make good decisions. It should be a win-win.
CloseEnough
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by CloseEnough »

If I was in that position, I would very softly let company 1 know that you have an offer at a higher number than what you discussed with company 1. I’d almost set it up as an FYI, but not in any way present it as an ultimatum. Company 1 may or may not raise their offer, and there may be considerations you’re not aware of, but if ultimately you want to work for company 1 you want to keep that door open and on good terms. At the same time the best time to negotiate salary is before you accept the new position.
Outer Marker
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by Outer Marker »

L1tt1eMinon wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:21 pm I have an job offer 1 which I really like the company and the salary negotiation is fair. We agreed on a number.
If you "really like" Job 1, I would not rock the boat over $20K at that level. If they are formalizing an offer, it needs sign-offs from higher-ups, etc. Just as they're getting this reduced to paper, you're telling them you want more. The offer letter may never come, and/or you could start a new position off as a "squeaky wheel." You performance and advances in the coming years will quickly erase that small starting advantage, and you'll be compensated on pars with your peers.

If you're agnostic between Job 1 and Job 2, you could try to chip up your starting salary -- just be fully prepared to take Job 2 and be happy with it. If one of my new hire recruits had done that with me, I would have politely let him/her know I'd decided to go in a different direction. With a choice position to fill, I have many eager takers and a stack of well qualified resumes to pull from.
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vanbogle59
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by vanbogle59 »

Outer Marker wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:18 pm just be fully prepared to take Job 2 and be happy with it. If one of my new hire recruits had done that with me, I would have politely let him/her know I'd decided to go in a different direction. With a choice position to fill, I have many eager takers and a stack of well qualified resumes to pull from.
This is precisely what price discovery is about.
How much do you value job1 vs job2? How much does the company value you vs the next resume in the pile?

Just don't let someone tell you that you should abandon $ considerations because it's impolite.
How could any honest employer be insulted by: "I've just received a job offer that is 20K more than you are offering. For the sake of my family and career, I'm going to give it careful consideration."
Then it's their move. Either say "Wait, we really value you, we will match that" OR "We are happy you found something better. Good luck!"
But spare me: "We think you are a squeaky wheel. You should be ashamed of yourself." Please.

Many companies behave like socialist countries internally, or even family mafias, while screaming capitalism on the outside.

BTW, what industry is this in? That might make a big difference culturally.
sad2
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by sad2 »

vanbogle59 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:46 pm
Outer Marker wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:18 pm just be fully prepared to take Job 2 and be happy with it. If one of my new hire recruits had done that with me, I would have politely let him/her know I'd decided to go in a different direction. With a choice position to fill, I have many eager takers and a stack of well qualified resumes to pull from.
This is precisely what price discovery is about.
How much do you value job1 vs job2? How much does the company value you vs the next resume in the pile?

Just don't let someone tell you that you should abandon $ considerations because it's impolite.
How could any honest employer be insulted by: "I've just received a job offer that is 20K more than you are offering. For the sake of my family and career, I'm going to give it careful consideration."
Then it's their move. Either say "Wait, we really value you, we will match that" OR "We are happy you found something better. Good luck!"
But spare me: "We think you are a squeaky wheel. You should be ashamed of yourself." Please.

Many companies behave like socialist countries internally, or even family mafias, while screaming capitalism on the outside.

BTW, what industry is this in? That might make a big difference culturally.
+1
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by Outer Marker »

vanbogle59 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:46 pm Just don't let someone tell you that you should abandon $ considerations because it's impolite.
How could any honest employer be insulted by: "I've just received a job offer that is 20K more than you are offering. For the sake of my family and career, I'm going to give it careful consideration."
Then it's their move. Either say "Wait, we really value you, we will match that" OR "We are happy you found something better. Good luck!"
But spare me: "We think you are a squeaky wheel. You should be ashamed of yourself." Please.
It's not a matter of being ashamed. It's just that door #2 "We are happy you found something better. Good luck!" is a real possibility. The Spirit podcast example is spot on on what I would do - and have done - as someone with hiring and firing authority. Negotiate as hard as you want on salary, but if we have a handshake deal and I'm documenting your offer letter, don't come back and try and retrade the agreement. Conversely, I have fought very hard for my direct reports who exceeded expectations in their first year, and bumped their salary 30% or more on occasion - along with a substantial bonus.
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vanbogle59
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by vanbogle59 »

Outer Marker wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:03 pm
vanbogle59 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:46 pm Just don't let someone tell you that you should abandon $ considerations because it's impolite.
How could any honest employer be insulted by: "I've just received a job offer that is 20K more than you are offering. For the sake of my family and career, I'm going to give it careful consideration."
Then it's their move. Either say "Wait, we really value you, we will match that" OR "We are happy you found something better. Good luck!"
But spare me: "We think you are a squeaky wheel. You should be ashamed of yourself." Please.
It's not a matter of being ashamed. It's just that door #2 "We are happy you found something better. Good luck!" is a real possibility. The Spirit podcast example is spot on on what I would do - and have done - as someone with hiring and firing authority. Negotiate as hard as you want on salary, but if we have a handshake deal and I'm documenting your offer letter, don't come back and try and retrade the agreement. Conversely, I have fought very hard for my direct reports who exceeded expectations in their first year, and bumped their salary 30% or more on occasion - along with a substantial bonus.
You sound sincere and wonderful. Honestly. Not being snarky. You probably contributed to a great working environment over the years.

But you're missing the point.
If MegaCorp offers me a job at their Atlanta facility, then looses their big gov't contract that was going to be housed there, I lose my job.
They don't say: "Hey, we had a handshake agreement. You are our friend. We still love you."
Instead, they tell me when my last day will be and what severance benefits I qualify for. Good luck.

They don't do that because they are evil. They do it because they are a business.
At any time, an employee can be told by their employer that the gig is up.
The same holds for the employee. At any time, the employee can tell the employer that they are pursuing other options.
Nothing personal. It's business.

This isn't a question of good or bad. It should be open and honest. It's what capitalism does. And, in a healthy market, it's best for both parties (long-term, on average, yada yada...).

Parting shot: Those 30% salary increases you "fought" for. Presumably that was because you realized those people were worth that much. If you hadn't done that, and those employees left, you would be costing your employer a good deal of money. You weren't just doing the employee a favor. You were also helping the company succeed. It's what management does. You don't deserve special praise for doing your job. The employees were due that money, whether you "fought" for it or not. Paternalism doesn't add value.
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by Outer Marker »

vanbogle59 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:27 pm Parting shot: Those 30% salary increases you "fought" for. Presumably that was because you realized those people were worth that much. If you hadn't done that, and those employees left, you would be costing your employer a good deal of money. You weren't just doing the employee a favor. You were also helping the company succeed. It's what management does. You don't deserve special praise for doing your job. The employees were due that money, whether you "fought" for it or not. Paternalism doesn't add value.
That's exactly the point. If you're highly capable, and distinguish yourself you're going to be appropriately rewarded or you're going to leave. I'm not looking for any kudos. It's just common sense as a manager. My point is, it's going to quickly equalize based on your ability. If you're agnostic between company 1 or company 2, take the higher starting salary. But, if you like company 1 a lot more, tread cautiously at this stage and trust that the money part is going to work itself out.
Humility101
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by Humility101 »

You should be renegotiating with company 1 because you are obviously worth more than what you initially discussed. This capitalism, it is a free market, and the market is in short enough supply of your skillset that the price goes up. No different than the insane housing market right now amd the bidding wars for purchase.

You don’t need to be a hard ass about it. Just be transparent and tell them you received a more competitive offer, you want to work for them, and ask if they can match or do better.

Crush it,

Humility101
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L1tt1eMinon
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by L1tt1eMinon »

Thank you all for the insightful replies.

The industry is tech.

The range is 200 job offer 1 and 220 for job offer 2.

I made job 1 exactly what was going on as in I’m interviewing other places and waiting for an offer for one.

Essentially I’m waiting for job 1 and 2 offers. Just job 2 came first and job 1 was verbally agreed on a number.

Outer Marker wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:18 pm
L1tt1eMinon wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:21 pm I have an job offer 1 which I really like the company and the salary negotiation is fair. We agreed on a number.
If you "really like" Job 1, I would not rock the boat over $20K at that level. If they are formalizing an offer, it needs sign-offs from higher-ups, etc. Just as they're getting this reduced to paper, you're telling them you want more. The offer letter may never come, and/or you could start a new position off as a "squeaky wheel." You performance and advances in the coming years will quickly erase that small starting advantage, and you'll be compensated on pars with your peers.

If you're agnostic between Job 1 and Job 2, you could try to chip up your starting salary -- just be fully prepared to take Job 2 and be happy with it. If one of my new hire recruits had done that with me, I would have politely let him/her know I'd decided to go in a different direction. With a choice position to fill, I have many eager takers and a stack of well qualified resumes to pull from.
Thanks for this advice. This speaks a lot to me. Thank you.
FreelancerNYC
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by FreelancerNYC »

jack.bauer wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:54 am Yeah agree with nyc above. Especially if salary negotiations for job 1 is recruiting/HR. They do this 10 times a week. If hiring manager, tread a bit more carefully but still do it. For HM, you will have a long term relation to think about and they don't negotiate as much as a specialist.

I would suggest saying something like:

“Was ready to sign with your company as soon as I got the formal offer. However, in the meanwhile, I have gotten another compelling offer for 20k more so that’s making me give it a consideration as my responsibility is provide the max for my family and their future. I would love to still sign with your company as I love the opportunity and team quite a bit better. Is there anything you can do to match my offer?”

If you are comfortable, give your word that you will sign today if a match is provided. Obviously say this only if you will even if job2 comes back with another increase.
This is the correct answer. Ignore anyone who mentions fear of being “rude,” as I suspect they’ve never been on the hiring side of this equation. Here’s what hiring managers will think:
Darn, he’s valuable. Let’s see if we can get approval to match/beat the other offer.

I can’t believe people here are saying not to mention the other offer to company 1. You didn’t even sign anything yet. Once companies choose someone to hire, they don’t drop the candidate just because he received another offer. Phrase it like the poster above suggested. Worst-case, company 1 won’t match (more likely, they will increase a bit). Then you get to choose.
Jags4186
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by Jags4186 »

Job 1 has no idea you prefer them to job 2. If job 1 scoffs at you for telling them about a better competing offer then you don’t want to work there. You owe job 1 nothing. They have done nothing for you other than making you an uncompetitive offer. You owe everything to yourself. My guess is that the worst case scenario is that job one tells you their offer is the best they can do. Best case scenario is that they match or beat the offer.
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vanbogle59
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Re: Job offer advice needed

Post by vanbogle59 »

L1tt1eMinon wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:03 pm
The industry is tech.
That was my guess :-)
Everyone in that space is very comfortable with dynamic salaries.
If you are in a hot space, things change very rapidly. I've seen resumes where people worked for 6 companies in 10 years. And that wasn't a negative.
L1tt1eMinon wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:03 pm
The range is 200 job offer 1 and 220 for job offer 2.
That's not your everyday programming job. I'm surprised that you have 2 offers that are so similar.
I would expect to see other characteristics that would be more important to your decision making than 10% of starting salary.
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