How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

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brian91480
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How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by brian91480 »

Hi everyone,

This is a long -- but interesting -- story. Any advice (especially legal options) are appreciated.

I moved into a townhouse about 18 months ago (attached to another house). The heating bill (natural gas) was very high in the winter (I live in Minnesota --- about $170 per month during Dec / Jan / Feb!).

I tried everything to better insulate the home. I bought insulating film to cover my windows. I even affixed bubble-wrap on windows for extra protection. I was living in a hill-billy house trying to make it more energy efficient! I kept the inside thermostat set for about 63 or 64 degrees all winter... I was cold and miserable whenever at home. The following spring, I spent $2,450 out of pocket to re-insulate the home. (the total cost was $3,100 --- with a $650 energy saver rebate from the utility company = my $2,450 net out of pocket cost).

To my horror... by the following Fall season... my heating bills had rocketed right back up to where they were before! Almost zero difference. Then I realized the issue: I wasn't paying my own heating bill. I was paying my neighbor's heating bill.

My neighbors in the attached townhouse are very old: 96 and 86 years of age. They keep their house like an oven all winter long. They kept their house on average at about 78 degrees. I was keeping mine at 63 degrees. My heating bills were ** DOUBLE ** their heating bills. And our houses are identical in square footage, builder, layout, ect. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the issue.

I called the utility company and explained the situation --- they would not listen. They sent technicians to my house to make sure I was really using all of the energy the bills reflected (checked to see if the meter was broken). They blamed the insulation company for doing a poor job. Then they suggested I must have a HVAC gas leak somewhere --- so I spent $125.00 on a HVAC technician to visit my house and tell me --- There is no sign of a gas leak!

Finally, I got a technician to visit my house --- when I was at home! I gave the technician my cell phone number, and had him go outside to the meter. When he was at the meter, he called me. I had everything in the home turned off... and while he was watching the meter --- I turned on my gas fireplace. What a shock --- my neighbor's meter suddenly increased! So that is how I proved my case. The utility company calls this "a rare error" and blame the building for doing something wrong during the build --- 25 years ago.

It has since taken me almost a *** MONTH *** for the utility company to send me my actual heating bills that I had accrued from the past 18 months (since I had been receiving my neighbors statements all along). After a lot of pestering... I just got my real statements today. As an example --- December 2019: I should have been charged $95.09. But I was billed $176.74. So I was over-billed by $81.65 in that month alone.

So for 18 months (2 complete winter seasons), I had been way over-charged on heating / natural gas. The utility company is offering to give me a credit for future months to make up the difference over time. So essentially, their solution is to have me give them money in advance, and then pay me back so I get to break even after 3 years... a long, interest free, loan.

The other issue is... more importantly... I never would have spent $2,450 out of pocket money on extra insulation if I had known that my heating bills were a mistake. Now that I know my true gas usage... I will have to live in this house for decades to probably break even on this energy efficiency investment.

Now that I got my *** real bills *** sent to me.... I can compared 2019-2020 winter to the 2020-21 winter to see what my true insulation cost savings were. From December - March, my combined bill was $97 less having this insulation. Since a vast amount of natural gas is used during these months... I can do simple math. It's going to take me close to 20 years to pay myself back on the upfront insulation expenses I incurred.

What I want to seek is the following:

1. Immediate payment in full of the over-charged fees -- not a credit paid out over a long time

2. A lump sum payment of $1,350.

Here is the logic with the lump sum request: I am going to get SOME benefit from the extra insulation. So to be fair, I am thinking of asking for 50% of my net out-of-pocket expense on the extra insulation. Plus, I want to be reimbursed fully for the entire $125 on the ridiculous HVAC fees that I spent.... because I had already solved the case, and yet they specifically told me I needed to call a HVAC company.

I have not sent them my request / demands yet. But I fully expect them to say no. Just getting my past energy bills was really challenging. I would expect that going forward, they will be just as tough to deal with.

So if they refuse, and just offer me the credit paid back over time --- Do I have options? Can I take them to small claims court?

I am not sure if utility companies get special legal protections for issues like this. I have a bad feeling that the grand piano has to fall on someone's head occasionally... and occasionally... that piano needs to fall on my head.

--- Brian
DIFAR31
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by DIFAR31 »

Getting an immediate refund for your overpayments is reasonable. Whether or not you can use small claims court to get this money if the utility balks depends on Minnesota law.

Don't hold your breath on getting reimbursed for anything other than the gas you paid for but didn't actually use.
PVW
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by PVW »

File a complaint with the MN Public Utilities Commission.
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by niagara_guy »

+1 small claims court. you can also contact the government body that regulates the utility. That might be better.
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by chipperd »

Contact your state rep and find out how that individual can help you deal with the utility co., as most are overseen by state gov't.
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prd1982
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by prd1982 »

Do your neighbors in the attached house know about the mixup? They are in for a real shock.
Normchad
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by Normchad »

Good luck. I’d bet you are stuck on the insulation bill.
T4REngineer
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by T4REngineer »

No way would I waste time on trying to get the money spent on insulation back - consider it an upgrade in noise reduction (maybe), keeping the place more uniform temperature and long term earthly benefit. I totally see where your coming from but I don't think its worth your time. The credit seems like an easy way out for the company and while its far better than nothing I would agree with you to ask for that all upfront.

Curious if the utility company can ask your neighbors for years of underpayments (assume not....)
PVW
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by PVW »

T4REngineer wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:14 pm Curious if the utility company can ask your neighbors for years of underpayments (assume not....)
Utilities frequently back bill for underpayments - even when the fault is with the utility company. Billing rates and practices are often subject to strict regulation, so underpayment by one customer must be offset by the other customers.

In some cases, the time allotted for back payment is the same as the time it took to accrue the underpayment. The reverse might also be true - the utility company will repay an over payment in the time it took to accrue the over payment.
OnTrack2020
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by OnTrack2020 »

Local news station that has an investigative reporter. Typically, they can get this straightened out right away.
Doc7
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by Doc7 »

What a nightmare!


Does the local news have a regular segment where they help a viewer with these types of situations?

It would be a last resort for me after Contacting my local rep at the state and national level, but at least the ones they air on TV seem to go fairly well.
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Beensabu
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by Beensabu »

brian91480 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:32 pm The heating bill (natural gas) was very high in the winter (I live in Minnesota --- about $170 per month during Dec / Jan / Feb!).
This is my heating bill (electric) in the winter (I live in California) to make it not too uncomfortably cold in the morning or at night. I just pay it. I used to lecture everyone about wearing layers and go around turning all the space heaters off if I thought they were on too much, but now I just leave them alone and pay it.

I don't understand why you paid for insulation out of pocket instead of turning up the thermostat. Even if had gone up to $300/mo for a handful of months out of the year (which apparently it wouldn't have, just your neighbors' would have gone up to what you were already paying -- but obviously you had no way to know that), it still takes at least a couple years to get to what you spent trying to combat it.

When I gave up on fighting the winter electricity use in my home, I kept an eye on the bill to see what the difference was. It wasn't much. Not in return for comfort.

Try to look at it this way if they won't give you a straight up refund: It'll take 3 years of a $0 gas bill for you for them to come out of "arrears" with you. You were willing to (and did) spend 2+ years worth of an anticipated super high gas bill on insulation. So you were planning on living there about that long anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Or you can fight them. That sounds stressful. If I were you, I'd just turn your thermostat up as high as you want and live in blissful warmth through the winters. It's already paid for.

Honestly, I'm more worried about your elderly neighbors. I hope they don't get hit with a huge back bill through no fault of their own.
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brian91480
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by brian91480 »

Answers to some comments above:

1. Elderly neighbors are aware of the situation. So is one of their kids, who handles their finances. They actually agreed with me -- months ago -- that this was happening. The utility company was fighting this more than my neighbors were.

2. Neighbors are well off financially. They'll be fine financially with increased bills going forward.

3. MN Law states that you can only pursue a utility company for the past 3 years. Past that has a statute of limitations. If the utility company goes after neighbors for payments --- they are limited to 3 winters worth, essentially.

4. The growing city I live in (about 120,000 total population) is still a small town in a lot of ways. I know several news reporters from different local media stations. I already have thought about contacting them... if it comes to that. Hopefully not.

5. I know the local State House Rep for my district. Contacting him is a good idea, if it comes to that. Hopefully not.

6. That MN commission is a good idea. I will contact them, if it comes to that. Hopefully not.

7. To the 1-2 comments above stating I should just get over it.... you would not do that if this was happening to you.

Thanks all --- Brian
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by livesoft »

brian91480 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:01 pm Answers to some comments above:

1. Elderly neighbors are aware of the situation. So is one of their kids, who handles their finances. They actually agreed with me -- months ago -- that this was happening. The utility company was fighting this more than my neighbors were.

2. Neighbors are well off financially. They'll be fine financially with increased bills going forward.
So your neighbors are going to pay you for the gas that they used and that you paid for?
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ResearchMed
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by ResearchMed »

If you do decide to "publicize" this somehow, perhaps you could alert your neighbors in advance, or maybe even get their "permission". It could be rather intrusive to them if they end up on the evening news this way.

RM
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Jags4186
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by Jags4186 »

The fact that the utility is willing to provide you a go forward credit is enough for me to be reasonably happy. Definitely push push push for a refund upfront, but I wouldn’t waste my time suing the utility company in order to speed up the repayment. You’re burned on the insulation.

Get in writing the total amount of credit you will be receiving.
as9
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by as9 »

I would do what you said you're going to do (an email asking to be repaid and reimbursed). However, I'd only (maybe) expect a yes on being repaid immediately. I'd only include the second question in the hope it helps get a positive answer to the first. When they refuse to pay for any of the insulation work I personally would just drop it.
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beernutz
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by beernutz »

Did your neighbor's utility bills go down after you spent the $2,450 to re-insulate?
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Dave55
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by Dave55 »

Brian you could write the President/CEO of the Utility a letter (If you can find his email fine, if not use FED X Overnight to send it) with all that transpired and tell him what you want to make this right. I have found that this method gets results much of the time from companies.


Dave
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brian91480
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by brian91480 »

Dave55 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:22 pm Brian you could write the President/CEO of the Utility a letter (If you can find his email fine, if not use FED X Overnight to send it) with all that transpired and tell him what you want to make this right. I have found that this method gets results much of the time from companies.


Dave
I like this idea a lot. I might go this route. Thank you.
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by brian91480 »

beernutz wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:18 pm Did your neighbor's utility bills go down after you spent the $2,450 to re-insulate?
The insulation cut costs by about 40-45% per month. Which I had expected. The problem is.... I thought I was starting at a baseline of $175 / month in the winter. When the baseline is really $90 per month.... at most.... getting a 50% return only provides HALF of the expected benefit of getting the insulation.
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by Dave55 »

brian91480 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:24 pm
Dave55 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:22 pm Brian you could write the President/CEO of the Utility a letter (If you can find his email fine, if not use FED X Overnight to send it) with all that transpired and tell him what you want to make this right. I have found that this method gets results much of the time from companies.


Dave
I like this idea a lot. I might go this route. Thank you.
You are welcome. Good luck and let us know how this resolves.

Dave
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jumppilot
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by jumppilot »

Beensabu wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:43 pm
brian91480 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:32 pm The heating bill (natural gas) was very high in the winter (I live in Minnesota --- about $170 per month during Dec / Jan / Feb!).
When I gave up on fighting the winter electricity use in my home, I kept an eye on the bill to see what the difference was. It wasn't much. Not in return for comfort.
I’m with you on that. I don’t care what it costs, I stay comfortable no matter what. I have a neighbor that is cheap with energy usage (similar floor plan) and his bill is about $50 less a month. I’ll pay that to enjoy my house.

The original post really shows me it’s not worth it to re-insulate my house. They set their thermostat 15 degrees cooler than their neighbors, re-insulated, and only saved $80 a month.

Juice isn’t worth the squeeze.

Sorry I can’t answer your question, OP. Just thinking out loud.
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by Big Dog »

forget about recovering the money for the insulation -- that ain't happening. Since you have correct copies of the bills, what is the amount that you were actually overcharged? If you will be able to recover the overpayment in full in ~24 months, I'd do that deal. Otherwise, send me a check.

Don't forget that this is on the builder, who screwed up the gas-meter hook-ups.

(btw: I was shocked that you had to pay OOP for someone to check a gas leak. In my neck of the woods, the gas company has their own service rep out -- at no charge -- in a couple of hours anytime a leak is suspected.)
Last edited by Big Dog on Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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8foot7
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by 8foot7 »

I think you went overboard spending $3k on insulation to reduce a $170/mo gas bill anyway. You live in frozen tundra basically. Even if you managed to cut the higher bill in half, it would still take you 3 years to break even on the upfront cost of the insulation--what if you move? sell the home? etc. And you'd still be miserable at 63 or 64 in the house. Crank it up to something less miserable and your breakeven extends even further.

If your gas bill were hundreds upon hundreds of dollars each month, I would have a different opinion.

On the other hand, it is very reasonable to expect a check for your actual overpayments within 30 days and I would speak with a regulator to make sure this happens.
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by jumppilot »

8foot7 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:33 pm
You live in frozen tundra basically. Even if you managed to cut the higher bill in half, it would still take you 3 years to break even on the upfront cost of the insulation
Longer than that. OP doesn’t have a $170 gas bill in the summer.
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Godot
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by Godot »

brian91480 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:24 pm
Dave55 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:22 pm Brian you could write the President/CEO of the Utility a letter (If you can find his email fine, if not use FED X Overnight to send it) with all that transpired and tell him what you want to make this right. I have found that this method gets results much of the time from companies.


Dave
I like this idea a lot. I might go this route. Thank you.
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Train2bogle
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by Train2bogle »

Obviously depends of the size of your house, but is $170/month a lot for a Minnesota winter?

In PA, I pay about $175/month. 2000 sq feet. Avg thermostat temp 69 degrees.
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by FoolMeOnce »

If you get local news coverage, don't be surprised if it is mocking you for asking to recuperate your insulation costs. I think it is totally unreasonable to expect the utility company to reimburse you for any of that if this was the building's fault 25 years ago. Asking for a check instead of a slowly exhausted credit for your overpayment is reasonable.
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scorcher31
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by scorcher31 »

I have to agree I don't really think your gonna get anything for the insulation. Honestly, I'd be happy if they fixed the stupid meter going forward, thrilled if they would credit me the overpayment on future bills. I personally wouldn't care about a cash pay out, but I feel like that would be reasonable to request.
Freetime76
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by Freetime76 »

Is any going to notify the previous owner? (You think YOU got overbilled...they had it switched, too - unless they were even worse than the neighbors’ bill?) :oops:
Please spell out new acronyms. Thank you.
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by DoubleComma »

I had an issue with our gas company, Southern CA Edison, a couple years ago. I was super patient and polite, waited 9 months for resolution checking in every 4-6 weeks and finally had it. I did not lose it on anyone at the utility I simply went in line to California Public Utility Commission website and filed a complaint online. I different group from the utility reached out within 48 hours and immediately took action. The result of my billing error was an immediate refund of 5 months of utilities (Dec 2016-April 2017).

Don’t underestimate how much power the state commission has on these utilities, assuming power and gas is regulated in your state.
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by musicmom »

I also am surprised that you found $170/month high in Minnesota.
We have a tiny 800 sq ft home in New Jersey, keep it set at 70. Winter months we pay $110-$130.

Two months ago, we got a bill for $241. Absurd.
Called the utility and had to listen to his explanations that it was correct, it was 4 degrees colder than this month last year, we must have added some gas eating equipment, rates had gone up, etc, etc.

I insisted the reading was incorrect.
After alot of talk, he agreed to send a man to re-read the meter.
THEN I decided to go outside and actually check my meter myself.
Impossible. It was totally buried in the 3 feet of snow that had fallen in the last week. No way it had been recorded accurately. And they claimed it was a actual not estimated reading.

My next months bill was $17.

OP, I feel for you. Id insist on immediate lump sum credit. Not thinking youll succeed on installation cost.
Good luck
finite_difference
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by finite_difference »

brian91480 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:25 pm
beernutz wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:18 pm Did your neighbor's utility bills go down after you spent the $2,450 to re-insulate?
The insulation cut costs by about 40-45% per month. Which I had expected. The problem is.... I thought I was starting at a baseline of $175 / month in the winter. When the baseline is really $90 per month.... at most.... getting a 50% return only provides HALF of the expected benefit of getting the insulation.
If you are cutting your heating cost by 45%, I think that’s a pretty good deal.

Also, now you don’t need to make yourself miserable by setting the temp to 63F. You can set it to 70F, which will cost a bit more, but with 45% savings from insulation should still be cheaper than what you were paying originally. And you won’t be miserable.
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brian91480
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by brian91480 »

DoubleComma wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:16 pm I had an issue with our gas company, Southern CA Edison, a couple years ago. I was super patient and polite, waited 9 months for resolution checking in every 4-6 weeks and finally had it. I did not lose it on anyone at the utility I simply went in line to California Public Utility Commission website and filed a complaint online. I different group from the utility reached out within 48 hours and immediately took action. The result of my billing error was an immediate refund of 5 months of utilities (Dec 2016-April 2017).

Don’t underestimate how much power the state commission has on these utilities, assuming power and gas is regulated in your state.
Thanks for sharing. I'll keep this in my back pocket... depending how this unfolds.

9 months being nice is EXTREMELY PATIENT!!!! I lasted 1 month of being nice... until today... when I... moderately aggressively... went off on someone today.

I immediately made more progress today versus the past 4 weeks combined. And that's too bad. You want to stay nice... but not be a push over.
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brian91480
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by brian91480 »

musicmom wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:33 pm I also am surprised that you found $170/month high in Minnesota.
Considering the bill was really $90.... my instincts were obviously correct.

Reading several posts saying similar things is funny. I know what a reasonable bill should look like here.
arf30
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by arf30 »

I had this exact thing happen when moving into a townhouse a long time ago - it took forever to convince the utility company to come out, and after they realized the meters were swapped it took a few more months to sort out the billing. I got a gigantic credit on my bill (several thousand) and I imagine my neighbor got slapped with a massive bill. They told me not to mention it to that neighbor. Overall it took over a year to get sorted out.
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brian91480
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by brian91480 »

arf30 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:02 pm I had this exact thing happen when moving into a townhouse a long time ago - it took forever to convince the utility company to come out, and after they realized the meters were swapped it took a few more months to sort out the billing. I got a gigantic credit on my bill (several thousand) and I imagine my neighbor got slapped with a massive bill. They told me not to mention it to that neighbor. Overall it took over a year to get sorted out.
I can honestly say... I FEEL YOUR PAIN.
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ResearchMed
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by ResearchMed »

DoubleComma wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:16 pm I had an issue with our gas company, Southern CA Edison, a couple years ago. I was super patient and polite, waited 9 months for resolution checking in every 4-6 weeks and finally had it. I did not lose it on anyone at the utility I simply went in line to California Public Utility Commission website and filed a complaint online. I different group from the utility reached out within 48 hours and immediately took action. The result of my billing error was an immediate refund of 5 months of utilities (Dec 2016-April 2017).

Don’t underestimate how much power the state commission has on these utilities, assuming power and gas is regulated in your state.
This is how we handled a water bill for one of our vacation rental cabins.
We noticed we were being double billed, and the water company simply would not fix it; kept claiming things like more water was being used, ignoring the dates of the billing, etc.

ONE letter to the state agency, and we had an apology and a refund fast.

And IF you happen to have a senior person involved somehow, then invoking elder financial abuse, or possibility thereof, will *really* get the ball rolling. In that case Cc to whichever agency handles Elder Care, so two agencies are one the case... it gets done.
Cable/phone company kept billing very elderly MIL, also double billing (is this REALLY an accident each time?). The bills were coming to me to pay, but they were for her. I contacted the state agencies, and soon had a phone call from the head of regional Comcast, offering me the private office number "if there are any more difficulties". There were none after that. :annoyed

Given how promptly such complaints got handled, I suspect that there aren't actually that many people who take the problem there, but that's part of what they are there for.

RM
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PVW
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by PVW »

brian91480 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:54 pm
DoubleComma wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:16 pm I had an issue with our gas company, Southern CA Edison, a couple years ago. I was super patient and polite, waited 9 months for resolution checking in every 4-6 weeks and finally had it. I did not lose it on anyone at the utility I simply went in line to California Public Utility Commission website and filed a complaint online. I different group from the utility reached out within 48 hours and immediately took action. The result of my billing error was an immediate refund of 5 months of utilities (Dec 2016-April 2017).

Don’t underestimate how much power the state commission has on these utilities, assuming power and gas is regulated in your state.
Thanks for sharing. I'll keep this in my back pocket... depending how this unfolds.

9 months being nice is EXTREMELY PATIENT!!!! I lasted 1 month of being nice... until today... when I... moderately aggressively... went off on someone today.

I immediately made more progress today versus the past 4 weeks combined. And that's too bad. You want to stay nice... but not be a push over.
The PUC is the regulating authority. If you don't get what you want from the utility company, a complaint to the PUC should be your next step. Complaints to your elected officials will likely get redirected to the PUC. The 1st question an investigative reporter will ask is whether you've contacted the PUC. Senior officers at the utility company will be assessing whether you have a valid case with the PUC (i.e., whether the utility has followed the proper regulations).

Resolving customer complaints is part of the mandate for the PUC. It is the government agency that is tasked with sorting out these disagreements. You should not waste time trying to compel action from the utility company until you have the authority of the PUC behind you.
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by Dottie57 »

PVW wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:37 pm File a complaint with the MN Public Utilities Commission.
Ditto.
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gwe67
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by gwe67 »

Based on the information you have provided, it's not apparent that the gas company did anything wrong. If you get any compensation from them, take it and be glad.

As big dog wrote, "Don't forget that this is on the builder, who screwed up the gas-meter hook-ups."
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brian91480
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by brian91480 »

PVW wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:21 am
brian91480 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:54 pm
DoubleComma wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:16 pm I had an issue with our gas company, Southern CA Edison, a couple years ago. I was super patient and polite, waited 9 months for resolution checking in every 4-6 weeks and finally had it. I did not lose it on anyone at the utility I simply went in line to California Public Utility Commission website and filed a complaint online. I different group from the utility reached out within 48 hours and immediately took action. The result of my billing error was an immediate refund of 5 months of utilities (Dec 2016-April 2017).

Don’t underestimate how much power the state commission has on these utilities, assuming power and gas is regulated in your state.
Thanks for sharing. I'll keep this in my back pocket... depending how this unfolds.

9 months being nice is EXTREMELY PATIENT!!!! I lasted 1 month of being nice... until today... when I... moderately aggressively... went off on someone today.

I immediately made more progress today versus the past 4 weeks combined. And that's too bad. You want to stay nice... but not be a push over.
The PUC is the regulating authority. If you don't get what you want from the utility company, a complaint to the PUC should be your next step. Complaints to your elected officials will likely get redirected to the PUC. The 1st question an investigative reporter will ask is whether you've contacted the PUC. Senior officers at the utility company will be assessing whether you have a valid case with the PUC (i.e., whether the utility has followed the proper regulations).

Resolving customer complaints is part of the mandate for the PUC. It is the government agency that is tasked with sorting out these disagreements. You should not waste time trying to compel action from the utility company until you have the authority of the PUC behind you.
Thanks for the nudge on doing this. I just called Public Utility Commission of MN. They are going to try and talk the utility company into giving me some relief here. Fingers crossed. I will be posting an update in the next few weeks when a firm resolution is provided. --- Brian
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by talzara »

brian91480 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:32 pm Finally, I got a technician to visit my house --- when I was at home! I gave the technician my cell phone number, and had him go outside to the meter. When he was at the meter, he called me. I had everything in the home turned off... and while he was watching the meter --- I turned on my gas fireplace. What a shock --- my neighbor's meter suddenly increased!
It's too late for you, but this is a valuable lesson for other homeowners.

The first step in any utilities billing dispute is to check the accuracy of the meter. You don't need a technician to do this.

Turn on your furnace to its maximum rate and check how fast the gas meter is spinning. If you have an 80 kBTU/h furnace, then your meter should spin at exactly 80 kBTU/h. Analog meters usually have a small-quantity dial, and digital meters sometimes have a blinking light or a display on the LCD.

Public utilities regulations are very strict about meter accuracy. A meter that reads more than 2% fast is usually enough to get you a refund.
talzara
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by talzara »

brian91480 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:49 pm Thanks for the nudge on doing this. I just called Public Utility Commission of MN. They are going to try and talk the utility company into giving me some relief here. Fingers crossed. I will be posting an update in the next few weeks when a firm resolution is provided. --- Brian
The utility can make a goodwill gesture, but they are not required to make an immediate refund in your case.

Minnesota Administrative Rules 7820.3800 Subp. 2 allows the utility to refund the overcharge as a bill credit. The utility is only required to give an immediate refund if you've already discontinued service:
The refund to an existing customer may be in cash or credit on a bill. Credits shall be shown separately and identified. If a refund is due a person no longer a customer of the utility, the utility shall mail to the customer's last known address either the refund or a notice that the customer has three months in which to request a refund from the utility.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/rules/7820.3800/
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by 4nursebee »

I bet the utility is not liable for your decisions that cost money.
You undertook actions to improve your utility bills
You have lower utility bills.
I'd be happy.

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talzara
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by talzara »

Beensabu wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:43 pm
brian91480 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:32 pm The heating bill (natural gas) was very high in the winter (I live in Minnesota --- about $170 per month during Dec / Jan / Feb!).
This is my heating bill (electric) in the winter (I live in California) to make it not too uncomfortably cold in the morning or at night. I just pay it. I used to lecture everyone about wearing layers and go around turning all the space heaters off if I thought they were on too much, but now I just leave them alone and pay it.

I don't understand why you paid for insulation out of pocket instead of turning up the thermostat.
Electricity in California is expensive. Pacific Gas & Electric charges 23 to 41 cents per kWh in the winter, depending on what plan you're on: https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/p ... ricing.pdf

Natural gas in Minnesota is cheap. CentrePoint Energy charges only 61 cents per therm, including both delivery and supply: https://www.centerpointenergy.com/en-us ... ervice.pdf

Since 1 therm is equivalent to 29.3 kWh, natural gas costs the equivalent of 2.1 cents per kWh. That's less than 10% of the lowest rate that PG&E charges for electricity in California!

The OP's decision to insulate made sense. The OP is getting a 20-year payback at half the consumption, so it would've been 10 years if the bill had been correct. 10 years is usually considered a good payback period for an energy-efficiency retrofit. The only error was not checking the accuracy of the meter first.
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by MathWizard »

brian91480 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:25 pm
beernutz wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:18 pm Did your neighbor's utility bills go down after you spent the $2,450 to re-insulate?
The insulation cut costs by about 40-45% per month. Which I had expected. The problem is.... I thought I was starting at a baseline of $175 / month in the winter. When the baseline is really $90 per month.... at most.... getting a 50% return only provides HALF of the expected benefit of getting the insulation.
If the meter the utility was using was for the neighbor's home, not yours,
how did you insulating your home cut your utility bill. It should have cut
your neighbor's.

Was this just a coincidence?
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by OAG »

OnTrack2020 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:29 pm Local news station that has an investigative reporter. Typically, they can get this straightened out right away.
1+ Give them a copy of your request along with the Energy Company Reply (assuming it will be a negative replay).
Last edited by OAG on Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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talzara
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Re: How would you handle this? -- big utility company problem!

Post by talzara »

musicmom wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:33 pm I also am surprised that you found $170/month high in Minnesota.
We have a tiny 800 sq ft home in New Jersey, keep it set at 70. Winter months we pay $110-$130.
Your house is much less efficient than the OP's house. It sounds like you could benefit from an energy retrofit.

The average house in the United States uses less than 10 BTUs per square foot per degree-day. New Jersey's coldest month is January, requiring about 880 degree-days to keep a house at 70 degrees. For an 800 square foot house, you should be burning about 70 therms worth of natural gas for space heating. Including water heating and cooking, you should be using about 90 therms.

Public Service Electric & Gas charges $8 a month and about 80 cents a therm: https://nj.pseg.com/aboutpseg/regulator ... 10C50.ashx

An average 800 sqft house in would be paying less than $80 in January. An efficient house would be paying $50 or less. You're paying $130.
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