First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

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an_asker
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by an_asker »

stoptothink wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:51 am
infotrader wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:00 am
Going to college is just a fine experience. If you go for the sake of education, it really does not make much difference if you go to a state college or an ivy school.
I've asked this in several threads now, with no answer from anybody; outside of the education, how is the "experience" at an Ivy (or other "elite" U) different/better than state college? What is this "college experience" and why can't they get it at state U? FWIW, I did not attend an Ivy but UCLA for undergrad and two less prestigious public universities for grad school. I did have Ivy grad school offers, but my UCLA "experience" (which was nearly free) was mediocre so my choices for grad school were all about money.

As a parent, I'll pay for my child to have a better education which provides them with more opportunity, but I have not heard anybody provide a compelling reason as to why I should pay for a "college experience".
Definition of "experience":

- I ate lunch with the King of Jordan
- I tutored Prince Harry
- I am buddies with Sergey Brin's <replace with your pet company founder> kid
- I dated the Prince of Congo during my undergrad years

yada yada yada

These won't be experienced in small (state/public) universities where you might say one of the following:

- I dated Aaron Rodgers
- I tutored Deshaun Watson (in mathematics)
- I hug around with Shaq
- Emmitt Smith's son is my claasmate
...
Jack FFR1846
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

You're getting no need based aid, so forget about that.

For Robotics, both MIT and WPI are leaders. While taking a class at MIT, I watched the MITy mouse competitions. This was in the 80's and the small robots had to autonomously negotiate themselves through a maze.

WPI started a formal robotics program and degree at least a decade ago. I was at an open house with my son back then and their robotics facilities were phenomenal. And then there's FIRST, a high school robotics competition, founded by Dean Kaman, whose company invented the segway. Dean is a WPI grad.

Of course now, there's Ribbot. The WPI student built and run bot that competes in Battlebots on Discovery Channel.

My older son graduated last year from WPI and is a structural engineer. I graduated from WPI in 1985 and have worked as an engineer since then.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
an_asker
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by an_asker »

getthatmarshmallow wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:44 am [...]
The result is that the student's friends are likely to be bright, talented people who have four focused years (and that's the expectation) where they're encouraged not just to learn, but to explore and learn outside of class with peers who are there for the same purpose. It's really an environment unlike much else.
[...]
The key word here is "likely". Money opens doors, so there will be a sizeable fraction of the student population who are more likely (that word again) to be rich than "bright and talented." Could be both, of course!
snowman
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by snowman »

OP, there is no financial aid available to you - not now, and not in a few years (unless you experience catastrophic loss/reduction in income). The fact that you ask about what loans might be available to you (if it comes down to that) tells me you cannot afford this bill. Which begs the question - what degree at which private institution is worth (in your mind) such financial stretch?
welldone
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by welldone »

stoptothink wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:51 am
I've asked this in several threads now, with no answer from anybody; outside of the education, how is the "experience" at an Ivy (or other "elite" U) different/better than state college? What is this "college experience" and why can't they get it at state U? FWIW, I did not attend an Ivy but UCLA for undergrad and two less prestigious public universities for grad school. I did have Ivy grad school offers, but my UCLA "experience" (which was nearly free) was mediocre so my choices for grad school were all about money.

As a parent, I'll pay for my child to have a better education which provides them with more opportunity, but I have not heard anybody provide a compelling reason as to why I should pay for a "college experience".

If you don't see a compelling reason to pay for a "college experience", then don't. It is pretty simple. I don't see a compelling reason to live in the state of Utah, and no one has ever provided me with one. So, I don't live there. But I don't think people living in Utah made some sort of horrible mistake. I assume most of them live there for good reason, and are happy with their choice. It isn't my choice, but different strokes for different folks.

I am paying for my oldest child to have a "college experience" (residential). In her first year, she already has three incredible mentors at her school, as well as great contacts those mentors introduced her to outside of school. She is getting a lot of personal attention across academic departments which I think would have been more difficult for her to find at a larger institution, which has already made a difference in the opportunities she has already been afforded; an incredible summer placement she is excited to have as well as a robust 4 year plan she has worked out with her mentors. I like the mission and values the institution holds and operates under, which creates the environment in which she is thriving. Resources are being made available to her that a well-resourced college often have that less well resourced colleges often don't. She loves the campus (which is gorgeous) and loves being on a campus that offers so much, including a residential experience that drives a large part of her field of study. Being an active member of a very diverse group of students/faculty - both domestic and international - is a huge part of the college experience on her campus. She also got a pretty enormous merit scholarship, but we are still responsible for quite a bit of money each year.

There are lots of people who visit her campus and decide they don't want the experience she is having (it is a lot of work for both the student and the professors and you have to be all-in to get the most from this). Prospective students are told that going to this college will be a much more personal experience than going to many other schools. They are clear that this isn't the school for you if you don't want to be called on in class, if you want to be anonymous, if you don't want your professors to know when you decide to play hooky. Kids who don't want this type of college experience won't apply, and I would never recommend this school to them. And that's fine too.
getthatmarshmallow
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by getthatmarshmallow »

an_asker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:57 am
getthatmarshmallow wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:44 am [...]
The result is that the student's friends are likely to be bright, talented people who have four focused years (and that's the expectation) where they're encouraged not just to learn, but to explore and learn outside of class with peers who are there for the same purpose. It's really an environment unlike much else.
[...]
The key word here is "likely". Money opens doors, so there will be a sizeable fraction of the student population who are more likely (that word again) to be rich than "bright and talented." Could be both, of course!
At the Ivies IME the rule is "rich and bright" or "poor and exceptional" - but at a SLAC I taught at a while back what you suggest is true. Still, there's a world of difference when your classmates expect to get a degree in four years, and dumb rich kids can provide the seed funding so they're of some use.😉
Minty
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by Minty »

As I always say on these threads, we had higher income than OP and still got some need-based aid--subsidized loans, and a little grant when we had two in school simultaneously.

One thought: The "Private College 529" allows purchase of tuition credits at today's price which can be used even if the tuition when redeemed is much higher. Not every private school participates--MIT, Princeton, Harvey Mudd, yes, Yale, Harvard, etc. no. And you have to hold them for some years before redemption.

And there are articles out there with suggestions about how to allocate assets, pay down debt, etc. to minimize the Expected Family Contribution. You can play with a calculator.

For us, six years of private college down (four for each of two kids), two to go.
Core Four w/ nominal bonds & TIPS. Refi Rampage: Purchase: 3.875% 30 -> R1 3% 20 -> R2 2.375% 15 -> R3 1.99% 15 -> R4 1.875% 15
an_asker
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by an_asker »

getthatmarshmallow wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:31 am
an_asker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:57 am
getthatmarshmallow wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:44 am [...]
The result is that the student's friends are likely to be bright, talented people who have four focused years (and that's the expectation) where they're encouraged not just to learn, but to explore and learn outside of class with peers who are there for the same purpose. It's really an environment unlike much else.
[...]
The key word here is "likely". Money opens doors, so there will be a sizeable fraction of the student population who are more likely (that word again) to be rich than "bright and talented." Could be both, of course!
At the Ivies IME the rule is "rich and bright" or "poor and exceptional" - but at a SLAC I taught at a while back what you suggest is true. Still, there's a world of difference when your classmates expect to get a degree in four years, and dumb rich kids can provide the seed funding so they're of some use.😉
SLAC? :confused
stoptothink
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by stoptothink »

welldone wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:20 am
stoptothink wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:51 am
I've asked this in several threads now, with no answer from anybody; outside of the education, how is the "experience" at an Ivy (or other "elite" U) different/better than state college? What is this "college experience" and why can't they get it at state U? FWIW, I did not attend an Ivy but UCLA for undergrad and two less prestigious public universities for grad school. I did have Ivy grad school offers, but my UCLA "experience" (which was nearly free) was mediocre so my choices for grad school were all about money.

As a parent, I'll pay for my child to have a better education which provides them with more opportunity, but I have not heard anybody provide a compelling reason as to why I should pay for a "college experience".

If you don't see a compelling reason to pay for a "college experience", then don't. It is pretty simple. I don't see a compelling reason to live in the state of Utah, and no one has ever provided me with one. So, I don't live there. But I don't think people living in Utah made some sort of horrible mistake. I assume most of them live there for good reason, and are happy with their choice. It isn't my choice, but different strokes for different folks.

I am paying for my oldest child to have a "college experience" (residential). In her first year, she already has three incredible mentors at her school, as well as great contacts those mentors introduced her to outside of school. She is getting a lot of personal attention across academic departments which I think would have been more difficult for her to find at a larger institution, which has already made a difference in the opportunities she has already been afforded; an incredible summer placement she is excited to have as well as a robust 4 year plan she has worked out with her mentors. I like the mission and values the institution holds and operates under, which creates the environment in which she is thriving. Resources are being made available to her that a well-resourced college often have that less well resourced colleges often don't. She loves the campus (which is gorgeous) and loves being on a campus that offers so much, including a residential experience that drives a large part of her field of study. Being an active member of a very diverse group of students/faculty - both domestic and international - is a huge part of the college experience on her campus. She also got a pretty enormous merit scholarship, but we are still responsible for quite a bit of money each year.

There are lots of people who visit her campus and decide they don't want the experience she is having (it is a lot of work for both the student and the professors and you have to be all-in to get the most from this). Prospective students are told that going to this college will be a much more personal experience than going to many other schools. They are clear that this isn't the school for you if you don't want to be called on in class, if you want to be anonymous, if you don't want your professors to know when you decide to play hooky. Kids who don't want this type of college experience won't apply, and I would never recommend this school to them. And that's fine too.
Uh, OK, simply strengthens one of the underlying points of "Operation Varsity Blues"; "elite" universities are the new Rolls Royce for parents. I don't begrudge anybody for spending $80k/yr to send their kid to a specific university without evidence it is somehow "better", just clearly not something that anybody is going to be able to explain to me :sharebeer

HYPMS provides understandable opportunities that state U might not, that same concept does not apply in many (dare I say most) of these threads where the discussion is about some moderately "known" private university or out of state public U at 3x the cost of local U (when the academic ranking/cache are pretty much identical), but the parents and/or child seem to think the "environment" or "experience" is better for them.
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by Nebraska_Drought »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:57 pm
Nebraska_Drought wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:09 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:39 pm
Nebraska_Drought wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:31 pm Outside of a STEM field, and even iffy at that, can you honestly answer that question and say that the ROI of putting that kind of money (out of pocket) be realized in a career that will approach 20% of that amount in earnings?
I’m not sure on the “20% of that amount” math. Could you describe what you mean, because I think I’m misunderstanding.
I did not phrase that well, I am sorry for that. What I was trying to say is that if the degree earned would start her our at 20% of the total investment ($320K * 20% =$64,000) then it may be something to pursue. STEM fields may start out in this range, depending on the degree and where the job is located, but few will. My point was is the $320K degree that much more valuable over a career than the much cheaper degree earned at a state school?

I assume that the merit scholarships earned are able to be used regardless of where she would go ?
I thought that was what you meant, and in that case, and I honestly am not saying this in a snarky way, you should catch up on what bright energized kids are earning right out of college. Admittedly, STEM degrees are at the upper end of the range, but I know of some
Non-STEM kids earning more than $64k.
No, your point is valid and true. My son is in a STEM program where he will start out w/ a pretty decent salary. STEM programs are going to give you the best chance at that, not saying non-STEM can't but just not as likely but like anything, the field will dictate it. In any event, going back to the OP, there is no way I am putting out over $300K for an undergraduate degree, even if it was in a STEM field. That is very hard to justify any way you look at it.
oldfatguy
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by oldfatguy »

an_asker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:40 am

SLAC? :confused
Can mean Selective Liberal Arts College or Small Liberal Arts College.
getthatmarshmallow
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by getthatmarshmallow »

an_asker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:40 am
getthatmarshmallow wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:31 am
an_asker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:57 am
getthatmarshmallow wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:44 am [...]
The result is that the student's friends are likely to be bright, talented people who have four focused years (and that's the expectation) where they're encouraged not just to learn, but to explore and learn outside of class with peers who are there for the same purpose. It's really an environment unlike much else.
[...]
The key word here is "likely". Money opens doors, so there will be a sizeable fraction of the student population who are more likely (that word again) to be rich than "bright and talented." Could be both, of course!
At the Ivies IME the rule is "rich and bright" or "poor and exceptional" - but at a SLAC I taught at a while back what you suggest is true. Still, there's a world of difference when your classmates expect to get a degree in four years, and dumb rich kids can provide the seed funding so they're of some use.😉
SLAC? :confused
Small *Liberal Arts College - typically more dependent on tuition revenue (hence what a colleague referred to as "the duller children of the landed gentry" making up more of the student population)

* Never heard of the S standing for "selective."
an_asker
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by an_asker »

oldfatguy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:48 am
an_asker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:40 am

SLAC? :confused
Can mean Selective Liberal Arts College or Small Liberal Arts College.
Thanks guys! I got the College part of it lol.
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Vulcan
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by Vulcan »

stoptothink wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:51 am I've asked this in several threads now, with no answer from anybody; outside of the education, how is the "experience" at an Ivy (or other "elite" U) different/better than state college? What is this "college experience" and why can't they get it at state U?
Two words: peer group.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Vulcan
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by Vulcan »

an_asker wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:51 am Definition of "experience":

- I ate lunch with the King of Jordan
- I tutored Prince Harry
- I am buddies with Sergey Brin's <replace with your pet company founder> kid
- I dated the Prince of Congo during my undergrad years
Here is a real world example: DS is a lab buddy with world's #2 competitive programmer.

https://codeforces.com/ratings

(As a personal anecdote, I took classes from and later worked with #1's dad in the "old country").
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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cowdogman
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by cowdogman »

I went thru this exercise a couple months ago, but for our youngest, who will be applying to colleges in the fall, and I came to the conclusion aid would be zero.

In fact my son received an email from one top school that said "Answer 7 questions and you'll be surprised how much aid you're entitled to." So we went online and answered the seven questions. The result: $0.

Be happy that your child got into a top school. I'm a firm believer in "It doesn't matter where you go, it matters what you do when you get there." But I would not let my child pass up an opportunity to go to a top ranked university or college. Mid-tier? I would lean toward a state school--if comparably ranked.

Good luck.
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SmileyFace
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by SmileyFace »

Congratutions to your daughter.
At two of the top US Universities there is no merit aid and at your income there is no financial aid.
Your other choice isn't simply to drop into a State U - if your daughter applied to other great private U's where her standing is above the average for those U's they would likely offer her merit scholarships (even full rides depending) - they want to attract top students (to raise their averages) and do that with merit scholarships. I am not questioning your/her decision if you decide to pay full price at a top U - but my experience is this would be the best answer for the aid you are looking for. Otherwise you are likely looking at full price.
delamer
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by delamer »

Minty wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:36 am As I always say on these threads, we had higher income than OP and still got some need-based aid--subsidized loans, and a little grant when we had two in school simultaneously.

One thought: The "Private College 529" allows purchase of tuition credits at today's price which can be used even if the tuition when redeemed is much higher. Not every private school participates--MIT, Princeton, Harvey Mudd, yes, Yale, Harvard, etc. no. And you have to hold them for some years before redemption.

And there are articles out there with suggestions about how to allocate assets, pay down debt, etc. to minimize the Expected Family Contribution. You can play with a calculator.

For us, six years of private college down (four for each of two kids), two to go.
I don’t see that the OP has addressed what type of aid he’s hoping to obtain.

If he and his wife are willing to take on six figures in loans, they are obtainable.

But they defer the expense of the daughter’s degree, they don’t reduce it.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
DemySD
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by DemySD »

The opening post explains how the enhanced cost is worth the investment. So you merely have to do what every other less fortunate American does. Take out a loan. If that is too risky a proposition then maybe this isn't as great an investment as you think.
SC Anteater
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by SC Anteater »

dschwarz wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:30 pm Thanks for all the replies.

I tried to head off the "Go to State U instead" debate in my original post... I should've known that will never work with Bogleheads :D

To clarify a few things:

She is going for STEM
The merit scholarship is $1000/year recurring
I expect that she will be contributing from summer earnings and her own savings
$320K is a high estimate and includes room + board + textbooks, incidentals + cost increase years 2-4. Living off campus could save $ in years 3,4.
I'm not here to argue private vs. State U (which would be $100K all in.)

I am looking for resources (books, trustworthy sites, etc.) on how to best manage funds so as to maximize any chance of aid in future years, particularly in year 4 when we will have our current HS Freshman in college somewhere as well. That's the only year I see any realistic chance of getting need-based aid.

Thanks again.
You aren't going to get need-based aid with an income of $250K. There are no financial gymnastics you could do to get that, other than quitting your jobs and draining all non-retirement assets. You might get some subsidized federal loans (max 5500 freshman year and going up to 7500 by senior year). Or, if your kid goes to a less prestigious university, they will throw some money at you if your kid is a higher-than-their-average performer (I kow a family worth millions whose kid got $10K knocked off his SMU tuition, but that's a discount they give to most/all).
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by welldone »

stoptothink wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:40 am
Uh, OK, simply strengthens one of the underlying points of "Operation Varsity Blues"; "elite" universities are the new Rolls Royce for parents. I don't begrudge anybody for spending $80k/yr to send their kid to a specific university without evidence it is somehow "better", just clearly not something that anybody is going to be able to explain to me :sharebeer

HYPMS provides understandable opportunities that state U might not, that same concept does not apply in many (dare I say most) of these threads where the discussion is about some moderately "known" private university or out of state public U at 3x the cost of local U (when the academic ranking/cache are pretty much identical), but the parents and/or child seem to think the "environment" or "experience" is better for them.

Why do you think those other parents haven't found evidence the school they choose with their children are "better" just because you haven't found that evidence for that particular school in your opinion? You haven't defined "better" - no one has agreed to a common definition of "better". And often, with colleges, "better" is going to be exceptionally subjective.

We all value different things differently. Frankly, I won't pay $80k/year for any college, but that's just because I don't value any college at that price (as a happy graduate of one of those very elite US institutions you listed). It's not because I don't see that there are colleges that can definitely have a financial ROI that exceeds the COA. I can recognize that and still not be willing to pay that price. Financial ROI isn't/won't be the primary decision piece when helping my children find the right college.

Tomato/Tomato made a different choice with his son who went to Yale. Just because I wouldn't make that same choice doesn't mean I think he was wrong - it seems very clear his son had a fantastic experience at Yale and is very happy with his choice. My daughter is happy with her choice as well, and I think she is getting the "better" we hoped for when we sent her there. I know she thinks she is getting it too. She has different goals than T/T's son, so our criteria was different.

Tomato/Tomato and I are both "full pay" parents. But only one of us thought full-pay was worth the price. That doesn't make either of us wrong. And it wouldn't have been a mistake if T/T thought UIUC, or UCLA OOS was worth full price rather than Yale. He can afford to pay it, he finds it worth it, it is worth it.

The problem (as far as I am concerned) only comes into play when any family chooses to send their children to a full-pay college where they will be considered a full-pay family but have already over-extended themselves with other financial choices. The college isn't the problem, the subjective idea of what is 'better' isn't the problem, the only problem is the possible risks of financial over-extension. Taking on a ton of unsecured debt that can't be discharged is a big risk, especially if you have already made a lot of other over-extended financial choices. That is when the "better" isn't worth it (at least in my opinion). If you can't afford the college easily at $250k/year income with substantial 529 assets, how do you think you (or your child) is going to be able to afford the payments later on, when interest has compounded?
DIFAR31
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by DIFAR31 »

GreendaleCC wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:08 am
DIFAR31 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:54 pm
GreendaleCC wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:32 pm
DIFAR31 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:32 pm
greg24 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:21 pm There are other ways to reduce the price of college.

....

Take AP classes, a community college class in the Summer, and do whatever else it takes to guarantee graduating in 4 years (or less).
At many (most?) of the top ranked schools, AP or community college credits earned while in high school will not translate to credits that can be applied to a bachelor's degree. They may satisfy a requirement for a lower level college course that is a gateway to a higher level course, but they will not assist in completing degree requirements any earlier.
Which top ranked schools don’t offer actual credits for some AP exam scores? I think this is incorrect.
Dartmouth, for one. After a quick review, I will change my "many (most?)" to "some." Often, when straight credit is given for a high AP exam score, it's determined on a department-by-department basis, and is not governed by an overall school policy. And the more prevalent practice is to waive certain course requirements rather than grant credits toward graduation.
:confused

https://oue.fas.harvard.edu/apexams

http://catalog.yale.edu/ycps/table-of-a ... on-credit/

https://odoc.princeton.edu/curriculum/g ... d-standing

https://registrar.stanford.edu/students ... edit-chart

https://firstyear.mit.edu/academics-exp ... -placement

https://bulletin.columbia.edu/general-s ... ap-credit/

https://courses.cornell.edu/content.php ... avoid=7931
Does this now complete the universe of "top ranked schools"?
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by Nebraska_Drought »

welldone wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:37 am
stoptothink wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:40 am
Uh, OK, simply strengthens one of the underlying points of "Operation Varsity Blues"; "elite" universities are the new Rolls Royce for parents. I don't begrudge anybody for spending $80k/yr to send their kid to a specific university without evidence it is somehow "better", just clearly not something that anybody is going to be able to explain to me :sharebeer

HYPMS provides understandable opportunities that state U might not, that same concept does not apply in many (dare I say most) of these threads where the discussion is about some moderately "known" private university or out of state public U at 3x the cost of local U (when the academic ranking/cache are pretty much identical), but the parents and/or child seem to think the "environment" or "experience" is better for them.

Why do you think those other parents haven't found evidence the school they choose with their children are "better" just because you haven't found that evidence for that particular school in your opinion? You haven't defined "better" - no one has agreed to a common definition of "better". And often, with colleges, "better" is going to be exceptionally subjective.

We all value different things differently. Frankly, I won't pay $80k/year for any college, but that's just because I don't value any college at that price (as a happy graduate of one of those very elite US institutions you listed). It's not because I don't see that there are colleges that can definitely have a financial ROI that exceeds the COA. I can recognize that and still not be willing to pay that price. Financial ROI isn't/won't be the primary decision piece when helping my children find the right college.

Tomato/Tomato made a different choice with his son who went to Yale. Just because I wouldn't make that same choice doesn't mean I think he was wrong - it seems very clear his son had a fantastic experience at Yale and is very happy with his choice. My daughter is happy with her choice as well, and I think she is getting the "better" we hoped for when we sent her there. I know she thinks she is getting it too. She has different goals than T/T's son, so our criteria was different.

Tomato/Tomato and I are both "full pay" parents. But only one of us thought full-pay was worth the price. That doesn't make either of us wrong. And it wouldn't have been a mistake if T/T thought UIUC, or UCLA OOS was worth full price rather than Yale. He can afford to pay it, he finds it worth it, it is worth it.

The problem (as far as I am concerned) only comes into play when any family chooses to send their children to a full-pay college where they will be considered a full-pay family but have already over-extended themselves with other financial choices. The college isn't the problem, the subjective idea of what is 'better' isn't the problem, the only problem is the possible risks of financial over-extension. Taking on a ton of unsecured debt that can't be discharged is a big risk, especially if you have already made a lot of other over-extended financial choices. That is when the "better" isn't worth it (at least in my opinion). If you can't afford the college easily at $250k/year income with substantial 529 assets, how do you think you (or your child) is going to be able to afford the payments later on, when interest has compounded?
This is a great post !
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by DIFAR31 »

chipperd wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:00 am
DIFAR31 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:26 pm
chipperd wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:04 pm Lastly, I'm a bit concerned hearing about the level of merit aid ($1k/year if I read correctly?). I obviously don't know your daughter's academic stats, and it's great she got into an elite school, so please understand I mean no harm in saying: If she is just squeaking in, being a small fish in that large elite pond can be a shocker for some. Many kids that I am aware who admissions feel will make it, get more in merit funds to attend (Ivies excepted).
At most "top private universities" (OP's description), there is no institutional merit aid, because there doesn't have to be. These schools are already attracting the top applicants. My guess is that the $1k/year merit aid is an outside scholarship.
Sorry, the highlighted portion of your statement doesn't seem accurate to me based on my working definitions of "top" and "most" and not our experience at all. (As I mentioned in my prior post, Ivies are excluded). For me "most" is at least 80% and "top" is the top 50 in the U.S.
Here are a few private universities and colleges, ranked by USNW, that do provide institutional merit scholarships: U of Chicago ranked #6, Northwestern U ranked #9, Vanderbilt, ranked #12, Rice, ranked #16, Notre Dame, ranked #19, Emory, ranked #21.
These schools provide merit money just from an academic point of view. Obviously the further down the list one tracks, the more likely academic merit money will be offered.
Let's not forget many of the other top private U's, including those above, (with the exception of U of Chicago and Emory in the case of athletics as both are D3), will provide funding for athletes and those with special gifts or talents, as I cited in my example with MIT, ranked #4.
You can define "most" and "top" however you like, but for me, "most" is 50% +1, and really, at this point, it's purely subjective.
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Nebraska_Drought wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:42 am
welldone wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:37 am
stoptothink wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:40 am
Uh, OK, simply strengthens one of the underlying points of "Operation Varsity Blues"; "elite" universities are the new Rolls Royce for parents. I don't begrudge anybody for spending $80k/yr to send their kid to a specific university without evidence it is somehow "better", just clearly not something that anybody is going to be able to explain to me :sharebeer

HYPMS provides understandable opportunities that state U might not, that same concept does not apply in many (dare I say most) of these threads where the discussion is about some moderately "known" private university or out of state public U at 3x the cost of local U (when the academic ranking/cache are pretty much identical), but the parents and/or child seem to think the "environment" or "experience" is better for them.

Why do you think those other parents haven't found evidence the school they choose with their children are "better" just because you haven't found that evidence for that particular school in your opinion? You haven't defined "better" - no one has agreed to a common definition of "better". And often, with colleges, "better" is going to be exceptionally subjective.

We all value different things differently. Frankly, I won't pay $80k/year for any college, but that's just because I don't value any college at that price (as a happy graduate of one of those very elite US institutions you listed). It's not because I don't see that there are colleges that can definitely have a financial ROI that exceeds the COA. I can recognize that and still not be willing to pay that price. Financial ROI isn't/won't be the primary decision piece when helping my children find the right college.

Tomato/Tomato made a different choice with his son who went to Yale. Just because I wouldn't make that same choice doesn't mean I think he was wrong - it seems very clear his son had a fantastic experience at Yale and is very happy with his choice. My daughter is happy with her choice as well, and I think she is getting the "better" we hoped for when we sent her there. I know she thinks she is getting it too. She has different goals than T/T's son, so our criteria was different.

Tomato/Tomato and I are both "full pay" parents. But only one of us thought full-pay was worth the price. That doesn't make either of us wrong. And it wouldn't have been a mistake if T/T thought UIUC, or UCLA OOS was worth full price rather than Yale. He can afford to pay it, he finds it worth it, it is worth it.

The problem (as far as I am concerned) only comes into play when any family chooses to send their children to a full-pay college where they will be considered a full-pay family but have already over-extended themselves with other financial choices. The college isn't the problem, the subjective idea of what is 'better' isn't the problem, the only problem is the possible risks of financial over-extension. Taking on a ton of unsecured debt that can't be discharged is a big risk, especially if you have already made a lot of other over-extended financial choices. That is when the "better" isn't worth it (at least in my opinion). If you can't afford the college easily at $250k/year income with substantial 529 assets, how do you think you (or your child) is going to be able to afford the payments later on, when interest has compounded?
This is a great post !
I agree! I usually trim quotes to avoid hogging screen space, but this deserves full on quoting.

Welldone and I can agree 100% on what he wrote even though our particular decisions might be dissimilar.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by phinanciallyfit »

Here are my 2 cents....

I agree that there can be benefits to going to the elite school, mainly in terms of specialized classes (if it is a highly specialized major) and in terms of access to networks and connections. These can be invaluable in certain fields, but are usually most relevant in the last two years of college as that is when students really get into their major and specialization. Before that, it is mostly core classes (i.e. English, science classes, history, etc.) and introductory classes in the major.

So, I'd suggest she attend a state school for the first 2 years and then transfer to the top school of her choice. It is typically easier to transfer to an elite school then it is to get admitted to one in the first place, so as long as she performs well at the state school, then there really is little reason to expect that she would not be able to transfer. This will also give her time to make sure that the elite school she chose is the right one for her as she may end up developing different interests that would fit better elsewhere. From a family perspective, this also sets a policy that will be more sustainable in the future for all of your kids.
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by Vulcan »

phinanciallyfit wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:08 am It is typically easier to transfer to an elite school then it is to get admitted to one in the first place
Can't speak for all "elite" schools, but this is emphatically not the case at MIT, where approx. 25 transfer students are admitted each year.

https://news.mit.edu/2015/niche-of-thei ... dents-1007
Last edited by Vulcan on Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by stoptothink »

Vulcan wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:56 am
stoptothink wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:51 am I've asked this in several threads now, with no answer from anybody; outside of the education, how is the "experience" at an Ivy (or other "elite" U) different/better than state college? What is this "college experience" and why can't they get it at state U?
Two words: peer group.
In the case of your son, this is definitely the case; in (dare I say) most of these threads, I don't think the institutions being debated can really make that case.
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by TomatoTomahto »

stoptothink wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:00 pm
Vulcan wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:56 am
stoptothink wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:51 am I've asked this in several threads now, with no answer from anybody; outside of the education, how is the "experience" at an Ivy (or other "elite" U) different/better than state college? What is this "college experience" and why can't they get it at state U?
Two words: peer group.
In the case of your son, this is definitely the case; in (dare I say) most of these threads, I don't think the institutions being debated can really make that case.
I agree. Peer group for son 1 at Yale was stellar; peer group for son 2 at top 25 or 50 LAC (so not massively down in ranking) was meh.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by stoptothink »

welldone wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:37 am
stoptothink wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:40 am
Uh, OK, simply strengthens one of the underlying points of "Operation Varsity Blues"; "elite" universities are the new Rolls Royce for parents. I don't begrudge anybody for spending $80k/yr to send their kid to a specific university without evidence it is somehow "better", just clearly not something that anybody is going to be able to explain to me :sharebeer

HYPMS provides understandable opportunities that state U might not, that same concept does not apply in many (dare I say most) of these threads where the discussion is about some moderately "known" private university or out of state public U at 3x the cost of local U (when the academic ranking/cache are pretty much identical), but the parents and/or child seem to think the "environment" or "experience" is better for them.

Why do you think those other parents haven't found evidence the school they choose with their children are "better" just because you haven't found that evidence for that particular school in your opinion? You haven't defined "better" - no one has agreed to a common definition of "better". And often, with colleges, "better" is going to be exceptionally subjective.

We all value different things differently. Frankly, I won't pay $80k/year for any college, but that's just because I don't value any college at that price (as a happy graduate of one of those very elite US institutions you listed). It's not because I don't see that there are colleges that can definitely have a financial ROI that exceeds the COA. I can recognize that and still not be willing to pay that price. Financial ROI isn't/won't be the primary decision piece when helping my children find the right college.

Tomato/Tomato made a different choice with his son who went to Yale. Just because I wouldn't make that same choice doesn't mean I think he was wrong - it seems very clear his son had a fantastic experience at Yale and is very happy with his choice. My daughter is happy with her choice as well, and I think she is getting the "better" we hoped for when we sent her there. I know she thinks she is getting it too. She has different goals than T/T's son, so our criteria was different.

Tomato/Tomato and I are both "full pay" parents. But only one of us thought full-pay was worth the price. That doesn't make either of us wrong. And it wouldn't have been a mistake if T/T thought UIUC, or UCLA OOS was worth full price rather than Yale. He can afford to pay it, he finds it worth it, it is worth it.

The problem (as far as I am concerned) only comes into play when any family chooses to send their children to a full-pay college where they will be considered a full-pay family but have already over-extended themselves with other financial choices. The college isn't the problem, the subjective idea of what is 'better' isn't the problem, the only problem is the possible risks of financial over-extension. Taking on a ton of unsecured debt that can't be discharged is a big risk, especially if you have already made a lot of other over-extended financial choices. That is when the "better" isn't worth it (at least in my opinion). If you can't afford the college easily at $250k/year income with substantial 529 assets, how do you think you (or your child) is going to be able to afford the payments later on, when interest has compounded?
I don't disagree AT ALL. In fact, right after I hit post I realized I should have made a caveat: if you can "afford" it, who cares? This thread was started because the OP is looking for advice about financial aid (and that is the case for many of these threads); I don't know about you, but in that situation my first reaction is to ask and get clear answers as to what I am actually getting for that extra cost to begin with.

I'm in a similar financial position as OP, just a little younger. I could cashflow $80k/yr for my two kids, but that's still a hefty sum of money for us (significantly more than our total annual household expenditures). Your going to have to provide a pretty compelling case that the extra cost comes with a commensurate benefit: for my kids, in our situation. If I had Tomato's resources, my kids can go wherever they want.
Last edited by stoptothink on Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by welldone »

Peer group in many ways is a function of who your child wants to hang with. There are great and meh peers at many schools. When I was in school, my peer group was amazing, and yet in the same school my 1st roommate's peer group was pretty terrible (a few of that group later dropped out). Same elite institution, different choices of who to spend time/energy with.
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by TomatoTomahto »

welldone wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:21 pm Peer group in many ways is a function of who your child wants to hang with. There are great and meh peers at many schools. When I was in school, my peer group was amazing, and yet in the same school my 1st roommate's peer group was pretty terrible (a few of that group later dropped out). Same elite institution, different choices of who to spend time/energy with.
True. During son’s 1’s first year, he started hanging with a bunch of rich kids. His GF reminded him that none of the buildings bear the name Tomahto over the entry. He changed his crowd but kept the GF. :D
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by GreendaleCC »

DIFAR31 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:39 am
GreendaleCC wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:08 am
DIFAR31 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:54 pm
GreendaleCC wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:32 pm
DIFAR31 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:32 pm

At many (most?) of the top ranked schools, AP or community college credits earned while in high school will not translate to credits that can be applied to a bachelor's degree. They may satisfy a requirement for a lower level college course that is a gateway to a higher level course, but they will not assist in completing degree requirements any earlier.
Which top ranked schools don’t offer actual credits for some AP exam scores? I think this is incorrect.
Dartmouth, for one. After a quick review, I will change my "many (most?)" to "some." Often, when straight credit is given for a high AP exam score, it's determined on a department-by-department basis, and is not governed by an overall school policy. And the more prevalent practice is to waive certain course requirements rather than grant credits toward graduation.
:confused

https://oue.fas.harvard.edu/apexams

http://catalog.yale.edu/ycps/table-of-a ... on-credit/

https://odoc.princeton.edu/curriculum/g ... d-standing

https://registrar.stanford.edu/students ... edit-chart

https://firstyear.mit.edu/academics-exp ... -placement

https://bulletin.columbia.edu/general-s ... ap-credit/

https://courses.cornell.edu/content.php ... avoid=7931
Does this now complete the universe of "top ranked schools"?
no
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by DIFAR31 »

GreendaleCC wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:39 pm
DIFAR31 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:39 am
GreendaleCC wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:08 am
DIFAR31 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:54 pm
GreendaleCC wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:32 pm
Which top ranked schools don’t offer actual credits for some AP exam scores? I think this is incorrect.
Dartmouth, for one. After a quick review, I will change my "many (most?)" to "some." Often, when straight credit is given for a high AP exam score, it's determined on a department-by-department basis, and is not governed by an overall school policy. And the more prevalent practice is to waive certain course requirements rather than grant credits toward graduation.
:confused

https://oue.fas.harvard.edu/apexams

http://catalog.yale.edu/ycps/table-of-a ... on-credit/

https://odoc.princeton.edu/curriculum/g ... d-standing

https://registrar.stanford.edu/students ... edit-chart

https://firstyear.mit.edu/academics-exp ... -placement

https://bulletin.columbia.edu/general-s ... ap-credit/

https://courses.cornell.edu/content.php ... avoid=7931
Does this now complete the universe of "top ranked schools"?
no
Does that mean it's my turn to provide links to "top ranked schools" that don't provide college credit for AP work/exam results?
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by welldone »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:30 pm
True. During son’s 1’s first year, he started hanging with a bunch of rich kids. His GF reminded him that none of the buildings bear the name Tomahto over the entry. He changed his crowd but kept the GF. :D
Smart choice! :D
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by neverpanic »

welldone wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:37 am
stoptothink wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:40 am
Uh, OK, simply strengthens one of the underlying points of "Operation Varsity Blues"; "elite" universities are the new Rolls Royce for parents. I don't begrudge anybody for spending $80k/yr to send their kid to a specific university without evidence it is somehow "better", just clearly not something that anybody is going to be able to explain to me :sharebeer

HYPMS provides understandable opportunities that state U might not, that same concept does not apply in many (dare I say most) of these threads where the discussion is about some moderately "known" private university or out of state public U at 3x the cost of local U (when the academic ranking/cache are pretty much identical), but the parents and/or child seem to think the "environment" or "experience" is better for them.

Why do you think those other parents haven't found evidence the school they choose with their children are "better" just because you haven't found that evidence for that particular school in your opinion? You haven't defined "better" - no one has agreed to a common definition of "better". And often, with colleges, "better" is going to be exceptionally subjective.

We all value different things differently. Frankly, I won't pay $80k/year for any college, but that's just because I don't value any college at that price (as a happy graduate of one of those very elite US institutions you listed). It's not because I don't see that there are colleges that can definitely have a financial ROI that exceeds the COA. I can recognize that and still not be willing to pay that price. Financial ROI isn't/won't be the primary decision piece when helping my children find the right college.

Tomato/Tomato made a different choice with his son who went to Yale. Just because I wouldn't make that same choice doesn't mean I think he was wrong - it seems very clear his son had a fantastic experience at Yale and is very happy with his choice. My daughter is happy with her choice as well, and I think she is getting the "better" we hoped for when we sent her there. I know she thinks she is getting it too. She has different goals than T/T's son, so our criteria was different.

Tomato/Tomato and I are both "full pay" parents. But only one of us thought full-pay was worth the price. That doesn't make either of us wrong. And it wouldn't have been a mistake if T/T thought UIUC, or UCLA OOS was worth full price rather than Yale. He can afford to pay it, he finds it worth it, it is worth it.

The problem (as far as I am concerned) only comes into play when any family chooses to send their children to a full-pay college where they will be considered a full-pay family but have already over-extended themselves with other financial choices. The college isn't the problem, the subjective idea of what is 'better' isn't the problem, the only problem is the possible risks of financial over-extension. Taking on a ton of unsecured debt that can't be discharged is a big risk, especially if you have already made a lot of other over-extended financial choices. That is when the "better" isn't worth it (at least in my opinion). If you can't afford the college easily at $250k/year income with substantial 529 assets, how do you think you (or your child) is going to be able to afford the payments later on, when interest has compounded?
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by phinanciallyfit »

Vulcan wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:59 am
phinanciallyfit wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:08 am It is typically easier to transfer to an elite school then it is to get admitted to one in the first place
Can't speak for all "elite" schools, but this is emphatically not the case at MIT, where approx. 25 transfer students are admitted each year.

https://news.mit.edu/2015/niche-of-thei ... dents-1007
Alright... it is the case for some Ivy's (which is what I was thinking of), but the OP knows specifically which schools are being considered, so this would be easy enough to determine for the school of interest.
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by texasdiver »

neverpanic wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:42 pm
texasdiver wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:39 pm
hayesfj wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:24 pm Congratulations to your Daughter for all her hard work to get to this enviable position. And certainly credit goes to her parents as well for helping both emotionally and financially.

You did not say what field of study your Daughter wished to pursue or which Universities are involved. I think the question you have to ask is "will her degree in x from y allow her to pay off > $150K in Student Loan debt? And you might want to look at the number of students who switch majors. Her school maybe tops for Bio Engineering, but only middle of the road for Bio Statistics.

I don't think you can count on any significant aid money.
$150,000 of student loan debt is absolutely not happening for an undergraduate. The undergraduate loan limits are $5,500 in federal student loans during their first year in school and $31,000 in total. The monster student loan balances you read about are for graduate and professional school not undergrad.

Sure YOU can take out $150,000 in student loans for your child's undergraduate education. But they will be Parent Plus loans which YOU will be on the hook to repay, not your child.
OP stated it will be a "we" transaction.
It might be a "we" transaction. But $150,000 in student loans for undergraduate education is most definitely going to put the parent on the hook whether or not the kids graduates, walks away, is unemployed, or dies in a car wreck. It will be the parent taking out the bulk of the loans and the one responsible for repayment. One hopes that the child will help out, but the parent is the one legally responsible for repayment. There isn't any deferral just because your kid decides to take off a couple years for the Peace Corps or doesn't find a job.

In other words, there is no world in which a parent can just waive their hands and say that it is up to my kid to borrow the $150,000 for their undergraduate education.
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by ncbill »

delamer wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:11 pm What kind of financial aid are you talking about?

Scholarships, grants, student loans, parent loans, work study?

They are all types of financial aid with vastly different consequences.

As another poster suggested, It seems to me that the question is whether you and your spouse are prepared to take on $150,000 in loans for the education of one of your three kids.

Because your daughter isn’t going to get free money or be eligible to take on that level of loans herself at her chosen schools.

You might ge able to wring a little more money out of the system, find loans with relatively low interest, or get a break in year 4 with another child in college, but six figures in loans for one education is what you are up against.

There is ROTC, though.
Yes, since she's pursuing a STEM major she should also pursue campus-based ROTC scholarships...maybe too late for the first year but would pay tuition for subsequent years.
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by Pdxnative »

As usual, many folks here are confidently stating a 250k income will get no need based aid, or that it’d all be loans anyway.

Well, at MIT the quickie financial aid estimator shows that a family with 250k income, 750k in home equity, 100k in savings, and 1 other kid in college will pay 26-40k. No loans. A grant of anywhere from 29 to 43k, plus a work study job. Take away the other kid in college and the efc is between 44 and 68k, with the grant between 1800 and 25k.

So there are schools where good aid is possible at that income level, and it is absolutely worth it for OP to explore this. Of course, MIT is among the most generous. But the OP can use the NPC at the schools at issue and play around with what would happen if he paid down the mortgage, pushed more money into retirement accounts, etc, prior to the last year.

It’s tough to show less income without actually reducing income, but if either parent is a business owner, there are schools that do not add back employER contributions to pension plans (unlike employee contributions, which are usually added back).
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Pdxnative wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:48 pm As usual, many folks here are confidently stating a 250k income will get no need based aid, or that it’d all be loans anyway.
Thank you for pointing that out. I usually provide a view of an Ivy (either Yale because I know it or Princeton because it’s the most generous) and have done it often, but I get tired. Everyone knows better.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by NabSh »

I think for a computer Science or Engineering degree a top tier (top 100) is fine. This is were most top recruiters would go. But if you go to an average or regional state school you may not get those recruiters come to your school . This limits the chances.
TimeMan wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:29 am As a HS dropout with my first child going into UTD with one of the higher merit scholarships they gave out this year, the thought of out of pocket $320k for a STEM degree makes me ill.

My parents were small business owners and made a killing in the 80's and 90's, spent every dollar they earned, and now I support them as they are living on SS. That's a reason I'm a member here, because I refuse to end up like that.

I lamented not going to MIT (computer nerd programming at 7 in the early 80's) primarily due to I feel I could have hooked up with a Google type founding. Fast forward to 24 and I came up with a SaaS product in the early 2000's that I sold and now I work for a FAANG with $3M net worth set to retire as soon as I get these kids sorted.

As much as I regret not having been around the "IT" crowd to come up with some fantastic startup that let me quit college early with a solid startup angel, I cannot imagine making $240k and signing on a $320k degree.

If you cannot see your child being Sergey Brin or Bill Gates, it is a waste.

Instead, I'm using my industry connections to get my child sudo-interships in highschool and will continue my career long enough to get her those connections as she is perusing Comp Sci.

I'm a hiring manager for FAANG and I DO NOT CARE where you go to school.
chipperd
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by chipperd »

DIFAR31 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:44 am
chipperd wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:00 am
DIFAR31 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:26 pm
chipperd wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:04 pm Lastly, I'm a bit concerned hearing about the level of merit aid ($1k/year if I read correctly?). I obviously don't know your daughter's academic stats, and it's great she got into an elite school, so please understand I mean no harm in saying: If she is just squeaking in, being a small fish in that large elite pond can be a shocker for some. Many kids that I am aware who admissions feel will make it, get more in merit funds to attend (Ivies excepted).
At most "top private universities" (OP's description), there is no institutional merit aid, because there doesn't have to be. These schools are already attracting the top applicants. My guess is that the $1k/year merit aid is an outside scholarship.
Sorry, the highlighted portion of your statement doesn't seem accurate to me based on my working definitions of "top" and "most" and not our experience at all. (As I mentioned in my prior post, Ivies are excluded). For me "most" is at least 80% and "top" is the top 50 in the U.S.
Here are a few private universities and colleges, ranked by USNW, that do provide institutional merit scholarships: U of Chicago ranked #6, Northwestern U ranked #9, Vanderbilt, ranked #12, Rice, ranked #16, Notre Dame, ranked #19, Emory, ranked #21.
These schools provide merit money just from an academic point of view. Obviously the further down the list one tracks, the more likely academic merit money will be offered.
Let's not forget many of the other top private U's, including those above, (with the exception of U of Chicago and Emory in the case of athletics as both are D3), will provide funding for athletes and those with special gifts or talents, as I cited in my example with MIT, ranked #4.
You can define "most" and "top" however you like, but for me, "most" is 50% +1, and really, at this point, it's purely subjective.
It always was
:sharebeer
"A portfolio is like a bar of soap, the more it's handled, the less there is." Dr. William Bernstein
texasdiver
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by texasdiver »

chipperd wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:31 pm
DIFAR31 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:44 am
chipperd wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:00 am
DIFAR31 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:26 pm
chipperd wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:04 pm Lastly, I'm a bit concerned hearing about the level of merit aid ($1k/year if I read correctly?). I obviously don't know your daughter's academic stats, and it's great she got into an elite school, so please understand I mean no harm in saying: If she is just squeaking in, being a small fish in that large elite pond can be a shocker for some. Many kids that I am aware who admissions feel will make it, get more in merit funds to attend (Ivies excepted).
At most "top private universities" (OP's description), there is no institutional merit aid, because there doesn't have to be. These schools are already attracting the top applicants. My guess is that the $1k/year merit aid is an outside scholarship.
Sorry, the highlighted portion of your statement doesn't seem accurate to me based on my working definitions of "top" and "most" and not our experience at all. (As I mentioned in my prior post, Ivies are excluded). For me "most" is at least 80% and "top" is the top 50 in the U.S.
Here are a few private universities and colleges, ranked by USNW, that do provide institutional merit scholarships: U of Chicago ranked #6, Northwestern U ranked #9, Vanderbilt, ranked #12, Rice, ranked #16, Notre Dame, ranked #19, Emory, ranked #21.
These schools provide merit money just from an academic point of view. Obviously the further down the list one tracks, the more likely academic merit money will be offered.
Let's not forget many of the other top private U's, including those above, (with the exception of U of Chicago and Emory in the case of athletics as both are D3), will provide funding for athletes and those with special gifts or talents, as I cited in my example with MIT, ranked #4.
You can define "most" and "top" however you like, but for me, "most" is 50% +1, and really, at this point, it's purely subjective.
It always was
:sharebeer
Those schools mostly offer merit aid for the same reason that other schools do it. To make the sale. Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Rice, etc. offer it, to steal away the ultra-top kids who might otherwise go to Harvard or Stanford or MIT or Caltech. But good luck getting any if your kid is falls somewhere in the broad median range for those schools, which is most likely the case. Most kids are lucky to get into a school like Northwestern. They aren't very likely to be in the top 2% of Northwestern applicants. That is pretty rarified air.
manatee2005
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by manatee2005 »

dschwarz wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:44 pm So, just got some great news, our oldest child has been accepted into two top US universities and will be choosing between them for her undergraduate education. (These are both private universities; we did explore our state university and we determined that for her field of study, the private schools would be worth the investment.)

We are still awaiting final financial aid numbers from the schools, but I am not optimistic that we will get much help from either. The quickie financial aid calculators on the schools' websites come up with $0 need based aid for us.

She's received $4000 in outside merit scholarships, but these schools don't offer merit scholarships themselves.

We have $157K saved in a 529 for her, and the all-in 4 year cost looks to be around $320K.
Parents combined income- $250K/year in a high cost state. Just refinanced a 15yr, $380K mortgage.

Can anyone recommend a good source of advice on how to maximize our chances of receiving financial aid in future years, how to properly handle any financial gifts from grandparents who may be inspired to contribute, and the best type of loans to take out if it comes down to that?

We have two other kids to plan for; one is a HS freshman and the other, a 3rd grader. Both are in public school, and both have 529s with proportionately less money invested.

Thanks!
What are the schools she got into? There's a difference between paying 320k for Harvard and paying 320k for SMU.
BrainDrain
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by BrainDrain »

I wonder if the OP has left the room.

Congrats on your daughter gaining admission to highly selective schools in a very competitive year. The time to evaluate how to pay for college is before your child even applies to college. Sure there is some variability in the merit aid that may be available for a given institution. In this case, it sounds like you knew that there would be no merit aid available with these schools. What was your plan to pay for college that you had in place before your child applied?

As other posters stated, the max federal student loan is $5,500 in the first year and then increasing to $7,500 in the final year. Any other federal loans you take out are yours (PLUS loans) with higher interest rates. Even if you were to declare bankruptcy, it's possible the loans will not be discharged.

I hate to be defeatist, but I don't see a lot of options in making this university affordable to you (don't remember if OP disclosed any financial details other than 529 balances so could be wrong), especially if you intend to keep some level of equity in funding the education of all of your children.

Grandparents can help especially if there's no need-based aid in the picture. If there is need-based aid, it has traditionally made sense to have them help in the last two years of school as the FAFSA considers the prior prior year. This will change now due to the CAA of 2021, which means that the FAFSA ignores grandparent 529 distributions starting for 2023-4. The CSS profile most likely is in play with your daughter's choices, and universities that use it operate by a different set of rules. Again, should be no worries here if there's no need based help.

It is possible that you could take out PLUS loans and then later consolidate them into Direct Consolidation Loan. You then may be able to put the DCL into Income Contingent Repayment plan www.savingforcollege.com/article/income ... ayment-icr that would keep your loan payments down to a percentage of your income. You would be playing with fire here (opposite of FIRE) and could end up making payments on student loans for decades. You'd also be depending on the availability of these complex schemes in the future although the federal government does seem to be trending toward opening its (our?) coffers to support student borrowers.
Jablean
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by Jablean »

snowman wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:17 am OP, there is no financial aid available to you - not now, and not in a few years (unless you experience catastrophic loss/reduction in income). The fact that you ask about what loans might be available to you (if it comes down to that) tells me you cannot afford this bill. Which begs the question - what degree at which private institution is worth (in your mind) such financial stretch?
Yeah, I don't get it either. In addition to high college costs they've got the same amount in a mortgage they need to pay off too. What I think is going to happen is they've made a deal with the kid - we'll get the loans in our names but you'll have such a great job you'll be able to pay us back. They need to dip their toes over in the Reddit forums instead of CollegeConfidential and see where those kids wind up - in the broke, destitute, and separated from their family forums. And the fact that the schools aren't offering any merit award - nope nope nope.
chipperd
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by chipperd »

texasdiver wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:25 pm
chipperd wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:31 pm
DIFAR31 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:44 am
chipperd wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:00 am
DIFAR31 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:26 pm

At most "top private universities" (OP's description), there is no institutional merit aid, because there doesn't have to be. These schools are already attracting the top applicants. My guess is that the $1k/year merit aid is an outside scholarship.
Sorry, the highlighted portion of your statement doesn't seem accurate to me based on my working definitions of "top" and "most" and not our experience at all. (As I mentioned in my prior post, Ivies are excluded). For me "most" is at least 80% and "top" is the top 50 in the U.S.
Here are a few private universities and colleges, ranked by USNW, that do provide institutional merit scholarships: U of Chicago ranked #6, Northwestern U ranked #9, Vanderbilt, ranked #12, Rice, ranked #16, Notre Dame, ranked #19, Emory, ranked #21.
These schools provide merit money just from an academic point of view. Obviously the further down the list one tracks, the more likely academic merit money will be offered.
Let's not forget many of the other top private U's, including those above, (with the exception of U of Chicago and Emory in the case of athletics as both are D3), will provide funding for athletes and those with special gifts or talents, as I cited in my example with MIT, ranked #4.
You can define "most" and "top" however you like, but for me, "most" is 50% +1, and really, at this point, it's purely subjective.
It always was
:sharebeer
Those schools mostly offer merit aid for the same reason that other schools do it. To make the sale. Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Rice, etc. offer it, to steal away the ultra-top kids who might otherwise go to Harvard or Stanford or MIT or Caltech. But good luck getting any if your kid is falls somewhere in the broad median range for those schools, which is most likely the case. Most kids are lucky to get into a school like Northwestern. They aren't very likely to be in the top 2% of Northwestern applicants. That is pretty rarified air.
Absolutely agree with your statement. I was under the impression that, since the OP's daughter got into not 1 but 2 top private universities, that she would be in the running for merit money from a school like Northwestern, Rice, etc. The post higher educational industrial complex will continue to thrive as long as it can convince parent's like the OP that one should mortgage their own future to pay full boat to the very top schools, when that sticker price doesn't seem to have a ROI delta to match the difference in price, relative to schools the next half tier down the list.
"A portfolio is like a bar of soap, the more it's handled, the less there is." Dr. William Bernstein
m@ver1ck
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Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by m@ver1ck »

AFAIK your primary residence isn’t part of the assets. Is that true?
If so - you could liquidate all your taxable, sell your home and buy a huge home and hide all your money there.
You could also quit your job/retire early.

So - no income and no assets. Would you qualify then?
chipperd
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Location: here and now

Re: First child entering college in the fall... need some advice

Post by chipperd »

m@ver1ck wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:01 am AFAIK your primary residence isn’t part of the assets. Is that true?
If so - you could liquidate all your taxable, sell your home and buy a huge home and hide all your money there.
You could also quit your job/retire early.

So - no income and no assets. Would you qualify then?
The FAFSA doesn't include home equity in it's financial aid formula.
The CSS Profile, which many top tier schools use to determine financial aid, typically uses home equity in their respective financial aid formulas.
Without knowing the 2 top schools that the OP's daughter was admitted to, a precise answer isn't possible as to how home equity would effect the OP's situation.
YMMV.
Here is a good explanation with some dated examples: https://www.thecollegesolution.com/home ... ncial-aid/
"A portfolio is like a bar of soap, the more it's handled, the less there is." Dr. William Bernstein
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