Any happy lawyers out there?

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lgs88
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Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by lgs88 »

Hello, all.

I have a first-world problem to share with the Bogleheads.

I'm in my mid-late 20s with a couple years of high school teaching under my belt. I do not lack for money and (with any luck) likely never will. I live below my means, and I want for nothing material. I do not have a family of my own, but I'd like to start one in the next five years or so. I am good at my job, and my students frequently ask me why I'm in such a good mood. Why wouldn't I be? I love my job. Sure, it's got its drawbacks -- grading is a bore, I'm not paid what I'm worth, and it could be more intellectually stimulating -- but the kids keep me young, and there are no politics, and the hours are such that I can be deeply and satisfyingly involved in the community outside of work. I am a respected member of my community.

But I have a serious interest in the law, so this past year I applied for law school. I got into one of the vaunted ones -- just a couple slots below the ones the Supreme Court justices come from. I'd have to pay full freight, but I can afford it and it wouldn't change my financial trajectory much. I find the law intellectually fascinating, and I love teaching it to high school students. I read the course descriptions and salivate. I think I'd enjoy the experience of an intense intellectual experience amidst high-performing peers, a la Scott Turow's book One L, and I expect I'd have excellent job opportunities after those three years.

The catch is that I don't particularly want to be a lawyer. My friends in Biglaw describe work that, while well-compensated, is an intellectual wasteland devoid of meaning. They don't get much out of their lives outside of the office either, because they're so busy at work. It's hard on their relationships. I'd graduate right around when I'd want to start a family, and I worry about being unavailable for those years. Moreover, the internet is full of lawyers griping about how much they hate their lives.

So, my question for you lawyers out there: do you have unalloyed good things to say about the profession? Have you found a niche that allows you to be well-compensated and intellectually stimulated while having a life outside of work? Have you been able to prioritize your family? How did you find this niche, and how long did it take you to get there?

Thanks very much to the Bogleheads for their take on this topic.
merely an interested amateur
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anon_investor
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by anon_investor »

lgs88 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:01 pm Hello, all.

I have a first-world problem to share with the Bogleheads.

I'm in my mid-late 20s with a couple years of high school teaching under my belt. I do not lack for money and (with any luck) likely never will. I live below my means, and I want for nothing material. I do not have a family of my own, but I'd like to start one in the next five years or so. I am good at my job, and my students frequently ask me why I'm in such a good mood. Why wouldn't I be? I love my job. Sure, it's got its drawbacks -- grading is a bore, I'm not paid what I'm worth, and it could be more intellectually stimulating -- but the kids keep me young, and there are no politics, and the hours are such that I can be deeply and satisfyingly involved in the community outside of work. I am a respected member of my community.

But I have a serious interest in the law, so this past year I applied for law school. I got into one of the vaunted ones -- just a couple slots below the ones the Supreme Court justices come from. I'd have to pay full freight, but I can afford it and it wouldn't change my financial trajectory much. I find the law intellectually fascinating, and I love teaching it to high school students. I read the course descriptions and salivate. I think I'd enjoy the experience of an intense intellectual experience amidst high-performing peers, a la Scott Turow's book One L, and I expect I'd have excellent job opportunities after those three years.

The catch is that I don't particularly want to be a lawyer. My friends in Biglaw describe work that, while well-compensated, is an intellectual wasteland devoid of meaning. They don't get much out of their lives outside of the office either, because they're so busy at work. It's hard on their relationships. I'd graduate right around when I'd want to start a family, and I worry about being unavailable for those years. Moreover, the internet is full of lawyers griping about how much they hate their lives.

So, my question for you lawyers out there: do you have unalloyed good things to say about the profession? Have you found a niche that allows you to be well-compensated and intellectually stimulated while having a life outside of work? Have you been able to prioritize your family? How did you find this niche, and how long did it take you to get there?

Thanks very much to the Bogleheads for their take on this topic.
Yes, but it took a while to get there, and there was a lot of pain and suffering. I was a biglaw associate, it is as bad as everyone says it is (imagine working all the time and never seeing your spouse and kids). I work as an in-house lawyer at a megacorp now. The pay is still very good and the hours great (real work/life balance).

Go to law school if you want to be a lawyer. If you don't want to be a lawyer, do not go to law school, and definitely do not rack up a ton of student loan debt to do it.
hi_there
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by hi_there »

I don't think I have met a law firm associate who is not constantly thinking of their exit strategy. Some do claim that there are intellectually interesting aspects to their jobs, but it is usually overshadowed by the workaholic environment and endless thankless tasks that they spend most of their time on. Financial considerations are also a reason why people stay in big firms. I don't know if your comment about financial security means that you have an external source of wealth; if not, realize that your living expenses will not be nearly the same after you have family dependents and possibly move to a location where law jobs are concentrated. Lawyer compensation is "good", but at the same time, upside is limited, since you are on a standardized pay scale.
ChiLawyer
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by ChiLawyer »

Let me put this as plainly as humanly possible: do not go to law school if you do not want to practice law. Law school isn’t an intellectual endeavor where you spend hours debating legal theory for fun. Law school is a highly stressful, ultra-competitive trade school where you are there to learn the absolute basics of a craft, make some connections, and compete against those connections for a very limited number of high paying jobs. Even after all that, law school has very little connection to the actual practice of law. So, assuming you’re starting in your late 20s, you will enter the legal field as a rookie in your early 30s, knowing almost nothing, and be expected to deliver high level work product on tight (often fictional) deadlines for endlessly demanding clients and for partners who may or may not care about your professional development. Unless you are ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED that you MUST practice law for a living, I’d urge you to STRONGLY reconsider. Enjoy having summers off. Enjoy a workday that technically ends around 4pm. Trade the extra pay (if you’re lucky enough to win a spot in the big firm world) for your time and sanity.
Last edited by ChiLawyer on Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Firemenot
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by Firemenot »

I think you answered your own question. Stick to teaching.

I haven’t seen the numbers in awhile but as I recall 70 plus percent of lawyers regret their choice in career.
ChiLawyer
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by ChiLawyer »

I will add one further point: the economics of private firm lawyering are beyond backwards. As an associate (your first 10 years in practice, if not kore), does not matter how much revenue you generate for the firm. You are paid and advanced based almost entirely on how many hours you bill. My first year, I billed about 250 more hours than a close friend did, yet he/she brought in almost 200k more in revenue than I did because of practice economics beyond both our control. I was paid a bonus. He/she was not. Unless you are an in-house counsel or a government lawyer, your pay and value to the firm are dictated by the amount of TIME you spend billing. It takes 10 hours of workday to find 8 hours to Bill on average. That means there are days where you may really only have 1 or 2 things you MUST do that day, but you find more things to do and work until 9pm anyway because you are expected to do so and rewarded for it. The billable hour system incentivizes overworking, doing unnecessary work, and inefficiency, all in the name of higher comp. Stay a teacher. You’ll be happier and work less.
shuchong
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by shuchong »

I am a ... moderately happy lawyer? I'm honestly pretty burnt out at this point, though some of that is COVID and dealing with family illness. I find my job as a biglaw senior associate intellectually stimulating (I used to struggle with boredom... my firm solved that problem). I'm pretty good what I do, and I really enjoy most of my colleagues. I also lucked out with my firm and the partners I've worked for. I never had the wasteland "do useless repetitive tasks" experience -- through no particular merit of my own -- and now I'm the most senior associate on all my cases, so I'm the one assigning out tasks and choosing which to do myself. I guess what I'm saying is that I have had as good an experience in big law as I think it is possible to have.

I still cannot imagine doing this job for the rest of my life. The billable hour, and the unpredictability, is a grind. I am just tired of it. I took myself off the partner track two years ago, went 80% time, and essentially turned down an offer to become of counsel this year. Unless I get a significant job satisfaction boost once we return to in-person work, I'll be gone within two years. I'm financially independent (another perk of big law), so my next job can be pretty much whatever I want. It will definitely involve law somehow, because I really am well suited to it and because I enjoy it.

But you already have something you enjoy and are well suited for. And it gives you time off and time for the family that you want. I would not trade that in for a law degree and uncertain future.

If you really enjoy law, is there a way you can take courses on the side, or another way you can fit it in to your life that doesn't involve quitting and getting a JD?
Northern Flicker
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by Northern Flicker »

If you don't want to be an attorney, maybe a master's in legal studies is worth considering? Here is some info and an example:

https://legalstudiesmastersonline.northeastern.edu

Attorneys posting to the thread may be able to offer an opinion of such a degree.
Oakdale19
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by Oakdale19 »

What is your definition of well compensated? I am a lawyer. The few happy lawyers I know work in either government or nonprofits. You'll make less than big law, but you might have a chance at reasonable hours and actual work life balance. If you want to go down either of those routes, get a good scholarship/fellowship or explore LRAPs. Good luck!
Cruise
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by Cruise »

OP, not a lawyer, but have been involved for a long time with my state’s attorney discipline system. Please note that the rate of depression and suicide in the legal profession is quite high compared to other professions. These data echo comments from other posters regarding unhappy/stressed colleagues.

You love your current job, and that is very special. You have time to impact your community in different ways. Congratulations.
Tingting1013
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by Tingting1013 »

ChiLawyer wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:01 am Let me put this as plainly as humanly possible: do not go to law school if you do not want to practice law. Law school isn’t an intellectual endeavor where you spend hours debating legal theory for fun.
It is if you continue the academic path after the JD.

Did the law professors all practice BigLaw before teaching?
whereskyle
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by whereskyle »

lgs88 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:01 pm Hello, all.

I have a first-world problem to share with the Bogleheads.

I'm in my mid-late 20s with a couple years of high school teaching under my belt. I do not lack for money and (with any luck) likely never will. I live below my means, and I want for nothing material. I do not have a family of my own, but I'd like to start one in the next five years or so. I am good at my job, and my students frequently ask me why I'm in such a good mood. Why wouldn't I be? I love my job. Sure, it's got its drawbacks -- grading is a bore, I'm not paid what I'm worth, and it could be more intellectually stimulating -- but the kids keep me young, and there are no politics, and the hours are such that I can be deeply and satisfyingly involved in the community outside of work. I am a respected member of my community.

But I have a serious interest in the law, so this past year I applied for law school. I got into one of the vaunted ones -- just a couple slots below the ones the Supreme Court justices come from. I'd have to pay full freight, but I can afford it and it wouldn't change my financial trajectory much. I find the law intellectually fascinating, and I love teaching it to high school students. I read the course descriptions and salivate. I think I'd enjoy the experience of an intense intellectual experience amidst high-performing peers, a la Scott Turow's book One L, and I expect I'd have excellent job opportunities after those three years.

The catch is that I don't particularly want to be a lawyer. My friends in Biglaw describe work that, while well-compensated, is an intellectual wasteland devoid of meaning. They don't get much out of their lives outside of the office either, because they're so busy at work. It's hard on their relationships. I'd graduate right around when I'd want to start a family, and I worry about being unavailable for those years. Moreover, the internet is full of lawyers griping about how much they hate their lives.

So, my question for you lawyers out there: do you have unalloyed good things to say about the profession? Have you found a niche that allows you to be well-compensated and intellectually stimulated while having a life outside of work? Have you been able to prioritize your family? How did you find this niche, and how long did it take you to get there?

Thanks very much to the Bogleheads for their take on this topic.
Relatively happy lawyer here able to prioritize my family. Don't make a ton of money (public interest), but we have more than enough to save for a nice retirement. Use my wife's salary for fun and home improvement and the like.

Work is intellectually stimulating for sure and I love my clients but litigation is basically just being frustrated for a profession. If I could go back, I don't think I would do it again. In short, it's a miserable profession. Adversarial. Extremely time consuming. And then of course everything's up to the court, not to you. A big question I ask myself sometimes is, "Did being a lawyer make me a "worse" person?" My honest answer is, "yes." A ton of stress, a lot of ego, and a lot of uncertainty all the time. Second-guessing myself. And being constantly disappointed with the apparatus I'm a part of. My clients appreciate me, and I like the writing, but that's about it. While you might be interested in the law in theory, in practice it feels like a lot of arbitrary bs. The forest is missed for the trees in courtrooms across this country everyday.

I give it a big "NO!," and that's from someone who's pretty happy with his lawyer job comparatively.

I think most people's time is too valuable to spend it in a convoluted legal system that gets simple things wrong everyday.

If you're really interested, intern in an office for a year or so before taking the plunge. You'll see a lot of big heads, and you might start to get one yourself. But make sure you take everyone's stress and frustration seriously.
"I am better off than he is – for he knows nothing and thinks that he knows. I neither know nor think that I know." - Socrates. "Nobody knows nothing." - Jack Bogle
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JoeRetire
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by JoeRetire »

lgs88 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:01 pm I'm in my mid-late 20s with a couple years of high school teaching under my belt. I do not lack for money and (with any luck) likely never will. I live below my means, and I want for nothing material. I do not have a family of my own, but I'd like to start one in the next five years or so. I am good at my job, and my students frequently ask me why I'm in such a good mood. Why wouldn't I be? I love my job. Sure, it's got its drawbacks -- grading is a bore, I'm not paid what I'm worth, and it could be more intellectually stimulating -- but the kids keep me young, and there are no politics, and the hours are such that I can be deeply and satisfyingly involved in the community outside of work. I am a respected member of my community.

But I have a serious interest in the law

The catch is that I don't particularly want to be a lawyer.
Sounds like you need to figure out what you want to do with your life and with your career.

"I applied to and got accepted into a school to be an X, but I don't particularly want to be an X" is a bad start. Perhaps you just want to be a student again for a while, then go back to teaching?
Last edited by JoeRetire on Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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shuchong
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by shuchong »

Tingting1013 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:39 am
ChiLawyer wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:01 am Let me put this as plainly as humanly possible: do not go to law school if you do not want to practice law. Law school isn’t an intellectual endeavor where you spend hours debating legal theory for fun.
It is if you continue the academic path after the JD.

Did the law professors all practice BigLaw before teaching?
It is extremely difficult to become a law professor. And I don't think the path is compatible with what OP has outlined (wanting a family, not derailing savings, going to a school ranked slightly lower than the ones the Supreme Court justices come from). The norm these days for entry-level tenure track hires is a JD from a top-ranked school, a federal clerkship or two (these are competitive and much more available to students from top-ranked schools), and either a PhD in a related discipline or a fellowship or both. This website https://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsbla ... ng-report/ has some great, though not perfect, info on hiring demographics to show you what I mean. Some of my classmates went into biglaw for a year or two before academia, but that was in addition to PhDs and clerkships.
BillWalters
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by BillWalters »

Don’t do it. Been there, done that.
FreddyC
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by FreddyC »

There is a whole world outside big law- but sounds like you don’t want to serve clients, just go through law school. I’ve had a career to date that has not meaningfully involved firm work (law school summers excluded) that has been decently compensated and very intellectually rewarding.

There is at least one PHD program in law in the US- probably too competitive for your academics based on not getting in to top schools, but might fit the bill better. Likewise, many schools have a masters in government or political science with a focus in law or the like that will allow you to take an academic approach to the law with a core curriculum that won’t have property, evidence, and other courses that likely won’t interest you. You study law as a subject rather than learn it (which by the way, is how most law schools are anyway in my opinion, but will likely be more flexible in a non-law school setting).

A great clinical prof gave me great advice (the thought behind it goes to your question also) when I was discussing the allure of big law and justifying it with the relative sophistication of the work some intellectual worthiness and my genuine belief -still held- that everyone should be entitled to quality legal representation. I had large loans, no independent wealth, and had been wined and dined all summer by two great firms.

Everyone deserves quality legal representation but there’s only one of you. Which clients do you want to be for? (I was lucky to have a large portion of my loans paid off with my law schools insanely generous public interest program— but you have independent means, so are even better off from the $ perspective),

Do what calls you.
Last edited by FreddyC on Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:31 am, edited 4 times in total.
KaskadeForever
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by KaskadeForever »

I am a sole practitioner in estates, trust, and probate law and I am happy. My work is fulfilling - I help people solve their problems and I make good money doing it. I am my own boss, I have control over my schedule, and I get to spend time with my family. My clients are people from all walks of life, who I get to know and work with.

The downside is there are times of high stress - either with some very difficult cases or due to the amount of work that needs to be done (too many cases).

Practicing law is not quite the intellectual exercise it seems like you are describing it as though. There are some challenging cases where you work through complex, intellectually stimulating problems. But more of the day to day work is simply advising people and walking them through a process.
X528
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

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chazas
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by chazas »

Biglaw partner here close to retirement. I managed to find a niche for myself where I actually do write books and articles on fairly interesting, though niche, areas, and spend much of my time advising clients on them at the highest end of the market. I also work at a (relatively) humane firm.

But that expertise is not valuable to law firms in and of itself. My partners need me but in the eyes of the firm my value comes only from the number of hours I can bill times my billing rate, or (better) from client development. That’s it. My practice group leaders struggle every year to get me paid enough to keep me from quitting and always have. For most of the time I’ve had to put in an inordinate amount of hours to make that low-end partner comp - the firm only values the billable hours, but I have to do all the writing in addition. Due to twists and turns in my career, the client development aspect has come after the subject matter expertise, so is very late in contributing to my “worth.”

While I make a lot less than most of my partners, by normal human standards it’s a lot, but it’s been a long long slog. I’m burnt out and ready to retire, which of course would be easier if I had more comp.

I don’t have regrets, but if I were you I would not go to law school unless you want to work your tail off forever and are good at business development.
DesertMan
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by DesertMan »

Don't go swimming with the sharks unless you want to turn into one yourself.

There are already too many lawyers fighting over too few jobs. The "happy" jobs that pay enough to service your law school debt are already few and far between.

And don't assume that law school, much less the practice of law, will yield intellectual stimulation. Appellate practice is the only area of law that actually involves legal theory in any meaningful way. It is a very small and very competitive subfield within the already crowded law profession as a whole.

If you want intellectual satisfaction, please look at another field, like philosophy, that will give you that without ripping off your limbs.
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langelgjm
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by langelgjm »

Not a lawyer, but I took several classes in intellectual property at two different law schools during both my master's and PhD programs, and did my postdoc at Yale Law, where I shared an office with two other postdocs who are now both law professors.

If you're interested in law, or a specific legal topic, but don't want to be a lawyer, don't go to law school. As others have mentioned, outside of the elite schools that train new professors, law school is essentially a very expensive trade school.

Instead, go to graduate school in a field where you can study the law as a research topic. I did a PhD in political science and wrote a dissertation about global harmonization of intellectual property law. Not only did I get to take law classes, but I published in a faculty-run law journal (most are student-run), contributed chapters to two different books, presented at conferences in the US, South Africa, and Denmark, guest lectured a law class in Belgium, and conducted dozens of research interviews on three different continents, including at the World Trade Organization, World Intellectual Property Organization, and United Nations Development Programme. AND I didn't have to take out loans or work 80 hours weeks to do it.
FreddyC wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:21 am There is at least one PHD program in law in the US- probably too competitive for your academics based on not getting in to top schools, but might fit the bill better. Likewise, many schools have a masters in government or political science with a focus in law or the like that will allow you to take an academic approach to the law with a core curriculum that won’t have property, evidence, and other courses that likely won’t interest you. You study law as a subject rather than learn it (which by the way, is how most law schools are anyway in my opinion, but will likely be more flexible in a non-law school setting).
If you're talking about Yale Law's PhD program, I was doing my postdoc there when they started it, and one of my fellow postdocs switched over to it. It's purely meant for training law professors, and you will not get in unless you already have a JD from a top school (and let's be honest, "a couple slots below the ones the Supreme Court justices come from" is not generally a launching pad to a successful career as a law professor).

In my opinion, studying law as a topic from the perspective of some other discipline (economics and political science are the most common, but sociology, anthropology, philosophy, etc. are also possible) gives you a much broader perspective than studying just law. A lot of theory in legal academia is imported from other disciplines anyway.
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bottlecap
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by bottlecap »

If you’re going to go to law school, you have to have a plan - especially because you are currently happy and don’t need the money.

Going into "big law" is a crappy plan unless you are a grinder, very good at politics, or will have a good niche that few others can do (patent law, for instance).

It sounds like you're most interested in being a professor. Find out if that’s realistic. I'm sure, at the very least, you could start out by teaching paralegals at some school and progress from there. I’m sure it’s rife with politics at most schools, so prepare for that.

If you have an interest in working for a business in-house, see if that’s a likely possibility. Most places have some politics, and the legal work may not always be titillating, but the hours are generally a bit better and you get to help solve real world problems.

You can learn about the law without a JD. Without a career plan, going to law school just to learn would be a very inefficient way to scratch that itch.

Good luck,

JT
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by Triple digit golfer »

If you're fascinated with law but don't want to be a lawyer, you're not going to be fulfilled by going to law school and becoming a lawyer.

Why not read books on law, watch documentaries, join an internet forum, etc.? You have free time now because you're a teacher and not a lawyer. Use that free time to enjoy law without being a lawyer.

I am 36 and we have a 3 year old daughter. I could absolutely not imagine constantly working and not being around for her. These are times I cannot get back and I wouldn't trade them for any job or salary. I always think, had I gone into something where I could have been retired 10 years from now or earlier, I'd be around just in time for my daughter to hit the age where she wants to be with her friends and not me anyway. What a waste that would be.
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Cyclesafe
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by Cyclesafe »

I fancied reinventing myself after being laid off at 46 by going to law school. I was warned against it, but I did it anyway.

I went to a middling school, tested at the 50 percentile in the First Year, and ended up graduating at the 30 percentile as I improved my skills and took comparative advantage of most of my by-now thoroughly disillusioned "peers". Passed the Cali bar the first time. But not one firm (big, small, or strip-mall sketchy) would even talk to me. Later learned that there were hundreds of thousands of inactive members of the Cali bar.

I really enjoyed law school. The only disconcerting aspect is that there was extreme peer pressure to not ask questions in class as there was a fear that whatever question was answered might be fair game for the all-important end of the year exam. Nobody seemed to want more than what the syllabus (and the impeding bar exam) called for. And everyone was blindingly competitive. Two top-ranked students died, probably partially from the stress, one a triathlete who died in a race and the other a 54 year old who died from a heart attack (who was there - like me - more as a hobby). Some students were overheard saying how happy the were that their demise had enhanced their rankings.

I'm glad I went to law school. I could afford it and I got to spend the summers with my wife in Europe in a for-credits international law program. Upon passing the bar, I immediately went inactive as I decided I really didn't want to be a lawyer. Not sour grapes. In the past 18 years I've had not one regret.

I get to rant at the TV and mansplain legal issues to my family. Nothing better than that.
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flyfishers83
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by flyfishers83 »

As others have suggested, spend some time to figure out what about the law is interesting. I had a general interest in law and always planned to go to law school. A large percentage of my class never planned on practicing law. I only practiced for a short time. The only thing I miss is the courtroom. I’m still in a legal field, but in a role which doesn’t require legal training. I find much of the actual practice of law to be really boring. Some of the matters I have been involved with drag on for years and years and years... I am typically only involved for short sprints, so get exposure but not anchored to matters.
VoiceOfReason
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by VoiceOfReason »

Not a lawyer, but my wife is, made partner and left for an in house position.

From a neutral observer, it seems that more than almost any other industry, the culture in law firms is solidly stuck in the 1950’s. As countless other industries have evolved and looked to attract top talent that STAYS and is HAPPY working at the firm, there is a culture of “I went through being treated like shit, so should you”. I think they get away with it bc in the end a law firm is a pyramid scheme. Only a few will ever ascend to partner status bc there’s only room for a few at the top.

I believe you can be happy practicing law. Just go into it with your eyes wide open, know exactly where u want to land, and go get it.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by alfaspider »

I'm a happy lawyer married to a (mostly) happy lawyer.

I'm an in-house tax attorney who did a 3-year stint at a large firm at the beginning. I'm a bit over 10 years into my career. My current job is mostly interesting, I feel respected, and the hours are quite reasonable. However, I understand I had to thread the eye of the needle to get to where I am today, and a lot of my classmates from law school didn't fare as well in terms of ending up somewhere they are happy.

My spouse does labor and employment in biglaw (currently a senior associate). There are certainly inherent frustrations with being an associate at a large firm (lack of autonomy with running cases, internal firm politics). But she takes deep genuine interest in here cases and generally enjoys the work.

Anyhow, I'd certainly be wary of attending law school as a pure intellectual exercise. If that's what you want out of law school, you really need to go to Yale. Not even Harvard - Yale. It's the only school you can have some level of confidence of being able to end up as a professor when it's all said and done if that's what you want. Being a law professor is probably the closest thing to your job now, but with the extra intellectual challenge you seek. It's just that tenure-track law jobs are unicorns. I had a friend from law school who made a pretty good effort at entering legal academia, but ended up getting out of law entirely.

As you already likely know, there's an enormous difference in career outlook depending on what school you go to. I assume from your post, you are looking at schools at least in the T14, but not HYS. Those schools are going to funnel you hard into biglaw. It's good in the sense you are unlikely to end up like those folks in the scamblogs working for $20/hr doing document review. But bad in the sense that you can easily get funneled into a high stress unfulfilling job without a clear path to something else.

A big reason why biglaw is such a strong attraction to a law student is the hiring timeline. Biglaw will hire you at the beginning of your second year for a "summer associate" position that is a near guarantee of a job paying $190k + bonus (current market rate) after graduation. It's hard to turn that down when you are staring down the barrel of $300k+ in law school debt. Because if you do turn it down, you are likely going to be scrambling for jobs 3L year or even after you pass the bar that will pay 1/3 or less.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by Seasonal »

chazas wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:58 am... But that expertise is not valuable to law firms in and of itself. My partners need me but in the eyes of the firm my value comes only from the number of hours I can bill times my billing rate, or (better) from client development. That’s it. ...
From what I can tell, law firms value bringing in and retaining clients above all else. A partner who can get business and hand it off to others is much better compensated than one who has a high degree of expertise and who bills a massive number of hours. An exception might be lockstep firms, but those are dwindling away.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by tashnewbie »

lgs88 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:01 pm The catch is that I don't particularly want to be a lawyer.
You answered your own question. If you don't want to practice law, don't go to law school.

I'm a fairly "happy" lawyer. I'm an in-house counsel, and I have great hours, great colleagues, the work is decently interesting, and I'm paid fairly well. I didn't graduate law school with much debt and paid it off quickly. If I would've had to incur a lot of debt to go to law school, I wouldn't have gone. Not having a big debt burden gave me more flexibility in my career path (I didn't have tons of options, but I could've taken any path and been fine financially). But unlike you, I didn't think I had any other viable options when I was in my mid-20s, so law school seemed like the easiest way to improve my lot. I think you should consider yourself lucky that you have a job you seem passionate about that allows you to devote time to do meaningful work in your community.

[As an aside, isn't happiness subjective and multifaceted? Two people can have identical experiences but different perceptions of their happiness. I think you should think about what factors into your personal happiness. It sounds like teaching may be a calling for you. Maybe you can explore teaching at different levels, if you think that would be more intellectually stimulating.]

As others have mentioned, if you're interested in legal theory, there are other ways to explore that interest. Perhaps a master's degree or PhD in some related field (philosophy, political science, economics, etc), or even just auditing classes at a local university or taking online classes.

It sounds like you have wealthy family members who are willing to support you or will devise a substantial inheritance, which is a great advantage over a lot of people who pursue graduate/professional degrees. You have a soft place to land. Good luck in whatever you decide.

ETA: I went to a T14 law school but was only an average student. Clerked for a year, then worked at a small firm (~15 attorneys) for a few years doing insurance defense litigation (not glamorous by any means), and I've been in-house for a few years and plan to stay in-house as long as I can, hopefully until I'm ready to retire. Litigation didn't suit my personality, and I'm much happier being in-house (and feel pretty lucky about my situation overall). I don't regret going to law school, but if I had to do it all over, I would've made a different choice.
Last edited by tashnewbie on Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by PoultryMan »

For the love of all thats good, please dont add to the overcrowded field of lawyers.

If you LOVE the law and want to apply it in: Estate planning / Tax law or Business Law ok, all others forget it.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by HootingSloth »

I have been in biglaw for about a decade now. I have found a niche that is very intellectually stimulating, and very well compensated, at a firm that is one of the "good ones". I do not regret becoming a lawyer, but the path I took is a very narrow and uncertain one. It helped that I have a couple of degrees from the schools "the Supreme Court justices come from," and I don't know if I would have been able to land in this niche otherwise.

There also is a lot of unpleasantness that offsets some of the perks. Modern work in a large law firm is extremely demanding and extremely stressful. Everything I do has many millions or billions of dollars at stake, and the risk of a malpractice suit constantly looms. Clients want certainty and simplicity from an inherently uncertain and complex legal landscape. They also often want answers faster, and cheaper, than is consistent with the kind of thoughtful approach the questions deserve. At the end of the day, I am expendable if work dries up. Every year, I have planned to be ready take a 70% pay cut or to change careers entirely. Although it has worked out very nicely financially so far, it is not the most stable place to be.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by Lee_WSP »

lgs88 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:01 pm
do you have unalloyed good things to say about the profession? Have you found a niche that allows you to be well-compensated and intellectually stimulated while having a life outside of work?
Answering simply. No and no.

It's one of those choose one or the other choices for the most part.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by chazas »

Seasonal wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:31 am
chazas wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:58 am... But that expertise is not valuable to law firms in and of itself. My partners need me but in the eyes of the firm my value comes only from the number of hours I can bill times my billing rate, or (better) from client development. That’s it. ...
From what I can tell, law firms value bringing in and retaining clients above all else. A partner who can get business and hand it off to others is much better compensated than one who has a high degree of expertise and who bills a massive number of hours. An exception might be lockstep firms, but those are dwindling away.
Correct.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by chicagoan23 »

I've been practicing law for 21 years, at one large global firm and one large regional firm. My thoughts:
lgs88 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:01 pm I think I'd enjoy the experience of an intense intellectual experience amidst high-performing peers, a la Scott Turow's book One L, and I expect I'd have excellent job opportunities after those three years.
In my opinion, law school is not an intense intellectual experience. Most full-time students will do enough to get by for three months (until finals time). The exceptional students will be the ones who can identify and explain the key issues on a final exam in a coherent way, so that the professor grading the exam will tally up enough points in the few minutes he or she takes to read it.

There are no grand theories to uncover or novel arguments to be made on final exams; you issue spot and quickly write something that makes sense. While you may in fact develop those theories or make those arguments while in law school, they are irrelevant to whether you will be a success in law school. I've seen some of the smartest students, the ones who care about the intellectual aspects of what they are learning, do just average on exams because they don't know how to take exams.

Thinking that you would like to go to law school based on One L is like saying you want to become a congressman based on Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. It is a romanticized and fictional caricature of what law school really is.
The catch is that I don't particularly want to be a lawyer. My friends in Biglaw describe work that, while well-compensated, is an intellectual wasteland devoid of meaning. They don't get much out of their lives outside of the office either, because they're so busy at work. It's hard on their relationships. I'd graduate right around when I'd want to start a family, and I worry about being unavailable for those years. Moreover, the internet is full of lawyers griping about how much they hate their lives.
Yes and no. There are always horror stories--ruined vacations, missed family events, horribly stressful weeks or even months with seemingly endless work--and my experience is no exception. When you have to get something done, you have to get it done. But I have a family and have been heavily involved in their lives, I've coached sports teams, I put them on the school bus in the morning, I work a little on the weekends from home but don't go into the office on weekends (pre-Covid). You just need the self-discipline to take care of things that need to be done.

Like law school, practicing law has very little to do with intellectual rigor. I've had some memorable moments in my career....saving my clients $13 million because of an argument I came up with, navigating dangerous situations to keep my clients away from a potential criminal investigation/jail, negotiating aspects of nine- and ten-figure deals, winning a trial that went through to final verdict in federal court. I went to an average school and am certainly no genius, and I've had success practicing law (as I define it).

However, the day-to-day practice of law is not intellectually stimulating. I've seen co-workers who went to Harvard Law and Stanford Law get fired from my firm because they could not cut it, for whatever reason. They were clearly smart enough, but they were bad lawyers. There's a huge difference.

And ultimately, the lawyers who make the most money are the ones with exceptional sales skills. Part of that is client service and obtaining good results, but mostly it is either: (i) connections/networks that deliver clients; or (ii) constantly selling. I know one lawyer making $1 million per year who went to a bottom tier school and is frankly pretty bad at his job, but can sell anything to anyone. He finds clients and has others do the work.
So, my question for you lawyers out there: do you have unalloyed good things to say about the profession? Have you found a niche that allows you to be well-compensated and intellectually stimulated while having a life outside of work? Have you been able to prioritize your family? How did you find this niche, and how long did it take you to get there?
Everyone's experience will be different, because what one person finds fascinating (tax law) could bore someone else to tears (litigation).

I suggest that you take some of your free time and see if you are truly interested in the practice of law. Have you ever read a document--line by line, critically reading each sentence--like this one? Would you be willing to spend the time and effort answering the requests made in a document like this one?

If you have any interest in these types of things at all, and you can handle these documents very quickly while juggling other tasks, you can do the job.
Last edited by chicagoan23 on Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by chazas »

HootingSloth wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:37 am I have been in biglaw for about a decade now. I have found a niche that is very intellectually stimulating, and very well compensated, at a firm that is one of the "good ones". I do not regret becoming a lawyer, but the path I took is a very narrow and uncertain one. It helped that I have a couple of degrees from the schools "the Supreme Court justices come from," and I don't know if I would have been able to land in this niche otherwise.

There also is a lot of unpleasantness that offsets some of the perks. Modern work in a large law firm is extremely demanding and extremely stressful. Everything I do has many millions or billions of dollars at stake, and the risk of a malpractice suit constantly looms. Clients want certainty and simplicity from an inherently uncertain and complex legal landscape. They also often want answers faster, and cheaper, than is consistent with the kind of thoughtful approach the questions deserve. At the end of the day, I am expendable if work dries up. Every year, I have planned to be ready take a 70% pay cut or to change careers entirely. Although it has worked out very nicely financially so far, it is not the most stable place to be.
That’s pretty much it.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by ipdiddly »

There are lots of people who like baseball or basketball and work hard to develop their skills. But very few make it to the big leagues. Some will play in the minor leagues for a few years before being tossed aside. The same process happens in law.
Studying Supreme Court cases is fascinating and invigorating. But most lawyers never spend a second even mentioning those cases.
Most of the commenters have mentioned the grind of starting out in big firms trying to scratch out billable hours. But look at the other side. Think of all the many lawyers in the city or town where you live. Many are in one, two, three or four lawyer practices. Some do divorces, day in and day out. Others do real estate transactions, day in and day out. Some have small criminal defense practices. Most lawyering involves grinding out paperwork or waiting in the back of the courtroom for your case to be called.
Ultimately, you will need to focus on an area of specialization. This might be tax, estate work, intellectual property, labor law, among others. However, it's tough getting into these specializations.
I was very fortunate. I ended up in intellectual property because I had a science background and, at the time I graduated, this field was in demand and there were very few who were qualified. I also had a job in my field before I graduated. I watched classmates anxiously look at job postings for assistant DA positions paying $13K (in the 70's). I was also fortunate because I spent almost my entire career as a corporate lawyer, so I didn't have the billable hour grind and could balance work and family.
There are lots of negative comments to your post and you should take heed. Bear in mind that many unhappy people went to law school after obtaining useless undergraduate degrees and finding out there were no jobs for them. So they didn't necessarily know what they were getting into. Hence, the dissatisfaction.
Only you know what you truly want and what will make you happy. However, it sounds like you already enjoy what you do.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by Procopius »

Law school can be quite tedious; a glorified trade school with the sole aim of securing top-notch law firm employment for students. While in law school, I took a class at the university's business school, and I got more from that class than the majority of my (top 3) law school's courses. If finances permit, you might get an MBA and sit in on a few law school classes (assuming the university has both) to scratch that itch. The MBA seems much more versatile, especially if you have a career goal (education administration?) in mind.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by quantAndHold »

You know you enjoy teaching and don’t want to be a lawyer. Haven’t you answered your own question?

There are, of course, happy lawyers out there, and a lot of areas to specialize in, and if you’re someone who’s naturally a happy person, which it sounds like may be true, you could probably find a niche that fit you, and have a good career.

Both of the people I know who went into Big Law straight out of school quit before their loans were paid off. Small sample size, I know, but kind of telling.

A relative is a prosecutor. She loves it, and always wins the prize for the most interesting and entertaining stories at the dinner table. Before she went to law school, she was a TV news reporter. The skillset required is surprisingly similar. I suspect someone who’s a good teacher would be good in the courtroom as well.

The main thing I would say is to figure out what your career goal is, and if law school fits that, then go to law school. If it doesn’t, then don’t.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by esteen »

I agree with the folks saying there are options other than law school for you to study law the way it sounds like you want to. There are Masters of Jurisprudence programs (anyone have any experience in this degree?) And the like.

You can also study law and legal cases on your own in your free time, if you are simply curious but don't want it as a career. We are fortunate enough to live in an age where you can spend countless hours diving into almost any topic for free or nearly for free through publicly available internet resources.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by MarkRoulo »

lgs88 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:01 pm Hello, all.

I have a first-world problem to share with the Bogleheads.

I'm in my mid-late 20s with a couple years of high school teaching under my belt. I do not lack for money and (with any luck) likely never will. I live below my means, and I want for nothing material.
...
I love my job. ... I can be deeply and satisfyingly involved in the community outside of work. I am a respected member of my community.
...
this past year I applied for law school. I got into one of the vaunted ones -- just a couple slots below the ones the Supreme Court justices come from. I'd have to pay full freight,
...
The catch is that I don't particularly want to be a lawyer.
You didn't ask this question directly, but are you wondering whether you should stop doing a job you love which allows you to be deeply and satisfyingly invested in your community so that you can spend around $250,000 and spend three years of your life to get a job you do not want?

I feel that I'm missing something here.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by bsteiner »

esteen wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:39 am I agree with the folks saying there are options other than law school for you to study law the way it sounds like you want to. There are Masters of Jurisprudence programs (anyone have any experience in this degree?) And the like.
...
A well-respected expert in the IRA area with whom I've been on a couple of continuing legal education panels and with whom I'm writing an article has an M.J. Her program was essentially the same as an LL.M. program, except that since she didn't have a J.D., they gave her an M.J.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by Big Dog »

If you can get accepted to "one of the vaunted" law schools, you should be able to score a bunch of merit money from schools a few spots down the food chain. Do NOT pay sticker.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by Keenobserver »

Reading all the reponses here, I am so glad i decided not to go into law. I had everything set up and was ready to go, but something inside just kept nagging me and through many twists and turns, I ended up in healthcare. There are days when I ponder if I should have gone into law, but reading all the reslonses here, I feel like I was right in listening to my nagging gut. OP, I have some experience working the school schedule and remember that time as the best work/ life balance I ever had. I remember being a better more relaxed human being, who was more kind and patient. I make much more $ now, but miss the that vibe. I have plans to go back to that schedule, $$ be damned. I just want to be less stressed, feel more secure and happier on a day to day basis again.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by langelgjm »

bsteiner wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:44 am
esteen wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:39 am I agree with the folks saying there are options other than law school for you to study law the way it sounds like you want to. There are Masters of Jurisprudence programs (anyone have any experience in this degree?) And the like.
...
A well-respected expert in the IRA area with whom I've been on a couple of continuing legal education panels and with whom I'm writing an article has an M.J. Her program was essentially the same as an LL.M. program, except that since she didn't have a J.D., they gave her an M.J.
I'm under the impression that LLMs are generally either designed for 1) students who have foreign (non-US) law degrees and need US legal education for some reason, or 2) in an area of specialization and assume you already have a JD (e.g., LLM in tax law, or patent law, etc.).

Other law-related graduate programs, like the Master of Legal Studies/Masters of Jurisprudence, are generally designed for people who don't have any prior legal education at all but need to learn about the law for their job, e.g. journalists doing legal reporting, policy experts, etc.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by bogledogle »

Yes, happy lawyers that are I know are the folks on our corporate legal team :D

But another data point is one of my friends, a very talented guy who left a Director role at a startup tech company that paid afaik 250 + RSU in a pre IPO company virtually guaranteed to succeed because they are backed by top tier VCs, excellent founders with multiple successful exits, and unique products.

He actually landed an entry level job at a top tier law firm which paid for 100% of his law school and paid him a six figure salary during that time, and will pay him more and put him on partner track once he graduated. He graduated, but he hates his job and cannot wait to quit as soon as his commitment is complete (2 yrs).

Apparently he is expected to put in 40 hrs of billable hours every week, which means he probably needs to work 60 or more hours a week. He also needs to make up for any vacation days he takes by catching up on the billable hours :shock:

He intends to join a corporate job or work for some non-profit when he quits in a few months.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by Lee_WSP »

You could just take some self study courses, like those from Cali to scratch the itch.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by chazas »

langelgjm wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:59 am
bsteiner wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:44 am
esteen wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:39 am I agree with the folks saying there are options other than law school for you to study law the way it sounds like you want to. There are Masters of Jurisprudence programs (anyone have any experience in this degree?) And the like.
...
A well-respected expert in the IRA area with whom I've been on a couple of continuing legal education panels and with whom I'm writing an article has an M.J. Her program was essentially the same as an LL.M. program, except that since she didn't have a J.D., they gave her an M.J.
I'm under the impression that LLMs are generally either designed for 1) students who have foreign (non-US) law degrees and need US legal education for some reason, or 2) in an area of specialization and assume you already have a JD (e.g., LLM in tax law, or patent law, etc.).

Other law-related graduate programs, like the Master of Legal Studies/Masters of Jurisprudence, are generally designed for people who don't have any prior legal education at all but need to learn about the law for their job, e.g. journalists doing legal reporting, policy experts, etc.
This is correct. Another purpose is to burnish an undistinguished JD record. We sometimes hire folks who didn’t do fantastic in law school for one reason or another but who went on to get an LLM in securities law.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by restingonmylaurels »

lgs88 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:01 pm Hello, all.

...So, my question for you lawyers out there: do you have unalloyed good things to say about the profession? Have you found a niche that allows you to be well-compensated and intellectually stimulated while having a life outside of work? Have you been able to prioritize your family? How did you find this niche, and how long did it take you to get there?

Thanks very much to the Bogleheads for their take on this topic.
Yes. There is not one path in law and if entering the legal profession with prior professional experience, you can build upon what you know and like. There are so many niches out there. I built mine out of whole cloth, to be exactly what I wanted. You can be as successful and busy as you wish, however you define success, and that leaves lots of time for family and other things. The only limiting factor is your imagination.

BTW, it was so obvious to me in reading the prior posts that these are done by lawyers. I don't think I have ever seen such great writing skills on display in consecutive BH posts as this one. Enjoyable to read!
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by junior »

Law school isn't really meant to teach you the law, so much as create an environment where everyone can be "ranked" in a way that makes Big Law firms know who is the top performer and therefore hirable.

Imagine if your job was to make a few students get A's, a few B's and the rest get C's, and the class was graded on a curve. You could literally not say a word to your students for 4 semesters of high school and you would have accomplished this goal. Some students would figure out the subject from the book and seeing as it was graded on a curve you'd give them the A's, some would figure out less and they'd get the B's and others the C's.

Maybe you would enjoy this environment but it isn't optimized for education.
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Re: Any happy lawyers out there?

Post by Firemenot »

Interesting reading everyone’s experience. I’d say overall the practice is bleak for most, with some exceptions. Now with the high debt-loads and shortage of starting positions I think it’s not a great avenue for most.
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