Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

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A440
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Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by A440 »

The May 1st deadline for choosing a college is quickly approaching. Our son has received merit scholarship offers at all but one school in which he has applied. Three in-state schools have offered a range of full tuition, $9,000/year, and $4,000/year. The later two have a major in which he is interested. All 3 have a net cost in the same range (~$32,000/year) before the scholarships.
The school with the least amount of aid offered is (of course) of most interest to him and also the most selective. Should we approach that school and ask for more merit aid showing that competing state schools are offering more? Has anyone has success with this? If so, what is the best way to do this?
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by TomatoTomahto »

A440 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:29 am Should we approach that school and ask for more merit aid showing that competing state schools are offering more? Has anyone has success with this?
More than likely, they will not consider it a “competing school.” You can tell Yale that Princeton had a higher need based aid number, but they won’t be impressed that Oswego State had a higher merit aid number.

It can’t hurt to try it, politely. Good luck.

ETA: nothing against SUNY Oswego; a good friend of mine attended back in the day, but man, that’s the coldest and windiest campus in the universe.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by smitcat »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:32 am
A440 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:29 am Should we approach that school and ask for more merit aid showing that competing state schools are offering more? Has anyone has success with this?
More than likely, they will not consider it a “competing school.” You can tell Yale that Princeton had a higher need based aid number, but they won’t be impressed that Oswego State had a higher merit aid number.

It can’t hurt to try it, politely. Good luck.

ETA: nothing against SUNY Oswego; a good friend of mine attended back in the day, but man, that’s the coldest and windiest campus in the universe.

"ETA: nothing against SUNY Oswego; a good friend of mine attended back in the day, but man, that’s the coldest and windiest campus in the universe"
Interesting - except for being slightly more windy Oswego has almost the exact same weather as your home.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by Calico »

I don't have any advice aside from "it can't hurt to try." Good luck! Please let us know how it goes.

One thing you could tell your son, he can start off at one of the other schools and transfer later. For the most part, the first two years are all the same classes no matter where you go. The important thing is to make sure classes transfer.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by pennywise »

TomatoTomahto post_id=5919614 time=1617366767 user_id=25926]
A440 post_id=5919609 time=1617366547 user_id=47171]
Should we approach that school and ask for more merit aid showing that competing state schools are offering more? Has anyone has success with this?

More than likely, they will not consider it a “competing school.” You can tell Yale that Princeton had a higher need based aid number, but they won’t be impressed that Oswego State had a higher merit aid number.
+1

I'm a retired admin at a research university; this was probably the most common and least successful question we got from parents as decision day approached.

Trying to jockey the aid package in this manner is misunderstanding the basic power dynamic: Popular U isn't giving out as much merit aid because they don't need to. Your kid has no leverage there, although you might be able to negotiate for a sweeter deal on one of the other places that does want him as evidenced by a strong aid package offer.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by Iorek »

My view is if you know that school gives out merit aid and you plan to go somewhere else because of the lack of merit aid it would be fine to send them a note saying “we love your school but can’t come because this other school is more affordable” and see what happens.

If lack of merit aid will keep you from going there’s nothing wrong with asking. But I agree it’s not clear how much leverage you have and it’s not a situation where you can call all the schools up and ask for their “best and final” offers.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by TomatoTomahto »

smitcat wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:54 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:32 am
A440 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:29 am Should we approach that school and ask for more merit aid showing that competing state schools are offering more? Has anyone has success with this?
More than likely, they will not consider it a “competing school.” You can tell Yale that Princeton had a higher need based aid number, but they won’t be impressed that Oswego State had a higher merit aid number.

It can’t hurt to try it, politely. Good luck.

ETA: nothing against SUNY Oswego; a good friend of mine attended back in the day, but man, that’s the coldest and windiest campus in the universe.

"ETA: nothing against SUNY Oswego; a good friend of mine attended back in the day, but man, that’s the coldest and windiest campus in the universe"
Interesting - except for being slightly more windy Oswego has almost the exact same weather as your home.
Sorry smitcat, I have to disagree. Slightly more windy? Back in the day, they had ropes across campus so that you could hold onto something to keep you from being blown off course, not to be seen again until spring. It gets pretty cold here sometimes (e.g, this past February was relentless and brutal) but it's not memorable enough to still be a mental image 50 years later.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by smitcat »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:09 am
smitcat wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:54 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:32 am
A440 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:29 am Should we approach that school and ask for more merit aid showing that competing state schools are offering more? Has anyone has success with this?
More than likely, they will not consider it a “competing school.” You can tell Yale that Princeton had a higher need based aid number, but they won’t be impressed that Oswego State had a higher merit aid number.

It can’t hurt to try it, politely. Good luck.

ETA: nothing against SUNY Oswego; a good friend of mine attended back in the day, but man, that’s the coldest and windiest campus in the universe.

"ETA: nothing against SUNY Oswego; a good friend of mine attended back in the day, but man, that’s the coldest and windiest campus in the universe"
Interesting - except for being slightly more windy Oswego has almost the exact same weather as your home.
Sorry smitcat, I have to disagree. Slightly more windy? Back in the day, they had ropes across campus so that you could hold onto something to keep you from being blown off course, not to be seen again until spring. It gets pretty cold here sometimes (e.g, this past February was relentless and brutal) but it's not memorable enough to still be a mental image 50 years later.
In the past I ran the annual weather patterns on Weatherspark and compared each category - I had been in both relative areas for at least a year and thos weatherspark reports seem accurate. Oswego being windier and more moderate in other categories.
Certainly much more alike then different when compared to 1,000's of other spots within the USA.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by JoeRetire »

A440 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:29 am The school with the least amount of aid offered is (of course) of most interest to him and also the most selective. Should we approach that school and ask for more merit aid showing that competing state schools are offering more? Has anyone has success with this? If so, what is the best way to do this?
Sure. Just ask.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by sailaway »

Calico wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:56 am I don't have any advice aside from "it can't hurt to try." Good luck! Please let us know how it goes.

One thing you could tell your son, he can start off at one of the other schools and transfer later. For the most part, the first two years are all the same classes no matter where you go. The important thing is to make sure classes transfer.
I was thinking this as well, but transfers rarely get merit aid in the same way freshpeeps do. On the other hand, two years of full tuition makes a big difference in being able to afford those last two years elsewhere. The upside would be they may like the school and stick around. If they are considering this, it isn't so much an issue with credits transferring between similar universities, as differing core classes. The student should look at the gen ed requirements for the school they hope to transfer to, in case that influences any decisions between courses.

I really wish someone had been around to give me this kind of advice 30 years ago, when I passed on a full ride because they didn't have my desired major. I did not graduate with that major in the end, anyway.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by CloseEnough »

I had just this situation, and called the financial aid/scholarship office, told them that other schools had made offers and that my kid appeared to be in the range at that school but had not been offered a merit scholarship. In a short phone call we were offered $10K per year merit scholarship, so yes it can be successful. And, as someone said, no harm in asking. It depends on the numbers, and whether the school not offering aid wants your kid. In our case the school did, due to some extracurriculars in addition to academics, so perhaps we got lucky with that and numbers. I have no idea if the negotiation is better by phone or email, I did it by phone. I did not give much detail on the other schools and specifics of scholarships offered, and was not asked.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by humblecoder »

A440 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:29 am The May 1st deadline for choosing a college is quickly approaching. Our son has received merit scholarship offers at all but one school in which he has applied. Three in-state schools have offered a range of full tuition, $9,000/year, and $4,000/year. The later two have a major in which he is interested. All 3 have a net cost in the same range (~$32,000/year) before the scholarships.
The school with the least amount of aid offered is (of course) of most interest to him and also the most selective. Should we approach that school and ask for more merit aid showing that competing state schools are offering more? Has anyone has success with this? If so, what is the best way to do this?
You can ask but I don't expect you will be successful.

Simple "supply and demand" economics. If something is popular, you are less likely to get a discount. If something is not popular, you are more likely to get a good deal.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by lazynovice »

It will depend on where that school is on filling its freshman class. If they are behind their usual rate, they may be more ready to make a deal. If they are ahead, then maybe not. It will also depend on how flush the schools cash and investment reserves are. Some were decimated by the pandemic but others weathered the storm and the stock market has treated them well.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by quantAndHold »

So are we talking about three big public schools? Does the full tuition school have *a* major he’s interested in? Will you qualify for any need based aid, or are you footing the whole bill, except for the merit aid?

Honestly, if it’s 3 mid-tier public schools, the fact that one is a tiny bit better won’t make the slightest difference to his career and life prospects. I would choose the best deal. If we’re talking an actual top tier school (Cal) vs Cal State Bakersfield or something like that, I’d pay for the better school.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by teen persuasion »

We've had both good and poor results with this.

DD1 was gapped a significant amount by her first choice school. When she petitioned for an increase in aid, they offered only parent loans. When we objected to loans at 50% of our HHI per year, they gently suggested she might be happier elsewhere. She was very happy at choice #2, and we were much happier that it was closer to home for transportation purposes.

DS2 had close offers from his top 2 choices, but #2's offer was a bit better. He contacted school #1 and made it clear he REALLY wanted to attend there, but school #2 offered more aid, and $$ might just tip the decision. Could they match school #2's offer?

They asked us to fax over school #2's offer so they could see the details, and quickly increased his aid to BEAT school #2. He happily accepted.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by anon_investor »

lazynovice wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:46 am It will depend on where that school is on filling its freshman class. If they are behind their usual rate, they may be more ready to make a deal. If they are ahead, then maybe not. It will also depend on how flush the schools cash and investment reserves are. Some were decimated by the pandemic but others weathered the storm and the stock market has treated them well.
+1. Definitely worth asking.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by livesoft »

I love the anecdotes here, especially the ones noting successes.

Does anybody believe it is better for the student to try to do this instead of the parent? That is, make the student call.

I know that way back when I was in college, I had no fear of contacting the higher ups in the university to get more moeny out of them. My parents were not involved.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by anon_investor »

livesoft wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:04 pm I love the anecdotes here, especially the ones noting successes.

Does anybody believe it is better for the student to try to do this instead of the parent? That is, make the student call.

I know that way back when I was in college, I had no fear of contacting the higher ups in the university to get more moeny out of them. My parents were not involved.
It was for law school, so a little different, but I definitely called schools to ask for more money, and many offered more, including my first choice ($0 originally).
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by teen persuasion »

The student needs to make the request.

In my experience, the colleges don't want to hear from helicopter parents, their customer is the student. The student gets the bills; if I, the parent, want to be on the billing account, I'm only on it for payment purposes. I can't see the breakdown, just the balance. The only action I can do is make a payment.

The only time the colleges contact parents is for annual giving campaigns, or to get the parents to purchase goodie boxes to get their student thru finals week, etc.

So they are happy to accept money from parents, but otherwise - nope.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by We're wolves »

teen persuasion wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:18 pm The student needs to make the request.

In my experience, the colleges don't want to hear from helicopter parents, their customer is the student. The student gets the bills; if I, the parent, want to be on the billing account, I'm only on it for payment purposes. I can't see the breakdown, just the balance. The only action I can do is make a payment.

The only time the colleges contact parents is for annual giving campaigns, or to get the parents to purchase goodie boxes to get their student thru finals week, etc.

So they are happy to accept money from parents, but otherwise - nope.
eh, maybe. Yes, the student contacting the school shows initiative and first hand enthusiasm to go there. On the other hand, the schools know that, by and large, it is the parents that will be footing the bill, so there may be an incentive there to appease the party actually paying for tuition. As with all things, YMMV.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by manatee2005 »

You can ask if you want to make the admission officers laugh.

If you say no to the school because they are too expensive, they will just get someone off the waitlist who will pay what they ask. Simple demand and supply.
Last edited by manatee2005 on Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by lazynovice »

teen persuasion wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:18 pm The student needs to make the request.

In my experience, the colleges don't want to hear from helicopter parents, their customer is the student. The student gets the bills; if I, the parent, want to be on the billing account, I'm only on it for payment purposes. I can't see the breakdown, just the balance. The only action I can do is make a payment.

The only time the colleges contact parents is for annual giving campaigns, or to get the parents to purchase goodie boxes to get their student thru finals week, etc.

So they are happy to accept money from parents, but otherwise - nope.
This has been our experience. The university my kids attended does not even have an option for me to see their grades. I’ve never even attempted to call the university for anything but one hypothetical question about potential out of state tuition before the younger one enrolled. My kids had to give the school permission to talk to us about tuition bills.

Obviously, we had side agreements with our kids that we see grades.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by lazynovice »

manatee2005 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:55 pm You can ask if you want to make the admission officers laugh.

If you say no to the school because they are too expensive, they will just get someone off the waitlist who will pay what they ask.
Depends on the school and the kid and how desirable the kid’s stats are to the rest of the freshman class.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by bitdocmd »

A440 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:29 am The May 1st deadline for choosing a college is quickly approaching. Our son has received merit scholarship offers at all but one school in which he has applied. Three in-state schools have offered a range of full tuition, $9,000/year, and $4,000/year. The later two have a major in which he is interested. All 3 have a net cost in the same range (~$32,000/year) before the scholarships.
The school with the least amount of aid offered is (of course) of most interest to him and also the most selective. Should we approach that school and ask for more merit aid showing that competing state schools are offering more? Has anyone has success with this? If so, what is the best way to do this?
Complex question - can you tell us the major in which your son plans to major?

I planned to be a musician but decided to be a doctor - so yeah plans can change!

My two cents - go with your son's "interested" major. And kids are IMHO too young to know what they are going to "major" in when it comes to college so he should choose the place where he feels comfortable.

Congrats to you for being in a position to support your son's education. And A442 all the way!
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by cdc »

A440 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:29 am The May 1st deadline for choosing a college is quickly approaching. Our son has received merit scholarship offers at all but one school in which he has applied. Three in-state schools have offered a range of full tuition, $9,000/year, and $4,000/year. The later two have a major in which he is interested. All 3 have a net cost in the same range (~$32,000/year) before the scholarships.
The school with the least amount of aid offered is (of course) of most interest to him and also the most selective. Should we approach that school and ask for more merit aid showing that competing state schools are offering more? Has anyone has success with this? If so, what is the best way to do this?
We did this, and, while the entire gap wasn’t closed, we got a few thousand a year out of our kid’s first choice. Like others have suggested, it doesn’t hurt to try. Just be prepared—they may want you to show them the other offers.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by an_asker »

teen persuasion wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:18 pm The student needs to make the request.

In my experience, the colleges don't want to hear from helicopter parents, their customer is the student. The student gets the bills; if I, the parent, want to be on the billing account, I'm only on it for payment purposes. I can't see the breakdown, just the balance. The only action I can do is make a payment.

The only time the colleges contact parents is for annual giving campaigns, or to get the parents to purchase goodie boxes to get their student thru finals week, etc.

So they are happy to accept money from parents, but otherwise - nope.
This is so true and it got frustrating to me. Not for any other purpose than a feeling of complete ignorance when a buddy (his kid is a few years younger than mine) asked for an idea of how the cost distribution (tuition, boarding, etc) worked! I was able to get the info from DS but the university refused to give me access - except to where the invoices were presented! :oops:
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by momvesting »

teen persuasion wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:18 pm The student needs to make the request.

In my experience, the colleges don't want to hear from helicopter parents, their customer is the student. The student gets the bills; if I, the parent, want to be on the billing account, I'm only on it for payment purposes. I can't see the breakdown, just the balance. The only action I can do is make a payment.

The only time the colleges contact parents is for annual giving campaigns, or to get the parents to purchase goodie boxes to get their student thru finals week, etc.

So they are happy to accept money from parents, but otherwise - nope.
We had two entirely different experiences here. My daughter got in to her private, expensive dream school (although at our income, the aid is good). At this school the parents foot the bill for a lot of the kids and the parents are the customers. We are included in everything. As part of enrollment, my kid does an electronic form assigning me various permissions and access. I input financial aid items, I see the detailed billing. I can see grade reports, degree requirements, and much more. We get emails from the school as a whole as well as her department with all kinds of small details. Her major is a small one and the dean set up a parent Zoom call to introduce himself, fill in the parents, and address parent questions. The advisors contact parents every now and then to offer private Zoom calls to address issues or questions if needed. The school is constantly reaching out to parents, both with mass emails and individualized personal contact. To keep the parents happy, this private school definitely caters to parents as customers.

She had an opportunity to defer her admission to this school for one semester. Due to COVID, we took that opportunity since she would be staying home anyway, we might as well save a significant amount of tuition and get her generals done. She enrolled for one semester for online classes at our state university. I had access to nothing. The only communication we got as parents was a donor drive. For the AOTC I have to have my kid send me screenshots of everything, I definitely do not have my own login or any kind of access.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by teen persuasion »

momvesting wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:02 pm
teen persuasion wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:18 pm The student needs to make the request.

In my experience, the colleges don't want to hear from helicopter parents, their customer is the student. The student gets the bills; if I, the parent, want to be on the billing account, I'm only on it for payment purposes. I can't see the breakdown, just the balance. The only action I can do is make a payment.

The only time the colleges contact parents is for annual giving campaigns, or to get the parents to purchase goodie boxes to get their student thru finals week, etc.

So they are happy to accept money from parents, but otherwise - nope.
We had two entirely different experiences here. My daughter got in to her private, expensive dream school (although at our income, the aid is good). At this school the parents foot the bill for a lot of the kids and the parents are the customers. We are included in everything. As part of enrollment, my kid does an electronic form assigning me various permissions and access. I input financial aid items, I see the detailed billing. I can see grade reports, degree requirements, and much more. We get emails from the school as a whole as well as her department with all kinds of small details. Her major is a small one and the dean set up a parent Zoom call to introduce himself, fill in the parents, and address parent questions. The advisors contact parents every now and then to offer private Zoom calls to address issues or questions if needed. The school is constantly reaching out to parents, both with mass emails and individualized personal contact. To keep the parents happy, this private school definitely caters to parents as customers.

She had an opportunity to defer her admission to this school for one semester. Due to COVID, we took that opportunity since she would be staying home anyway, we might as well save a significant amount of tuition and get her generals done. She enrolled for one semester for online classes at our state university. I had access to nothing. The only communication we got as parents was a donor drive. For the AOTC I have to have my kid send me screenshots of everything, I definitely do not have my own login or any kind of access.
Yes, for AOTC it was challenging getting the necessary information from school accounts. I'd IM my kids for the info, they couldn't find it on their banner accounts (some details, not all), they'd tell me their passwords so I could login and look for myself. Then one of us would trigger a lockout, because it detected more than one login simultaneously. :oops: It became really frustrating when we learned the past academic year's info was wiped from your history if you didn't capture screenshots - one tax year spans 2 academic years at most schools (although DD1's school billed spring semester early December, so an entire year's expenses were paid prior to 12/31, simplifying tax credit claiming by aligning academic and tax years).
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by A440 »

There seemed to be enough positive responses to give it a try. I included the offers from the two competing schools. Even a couple thousand more a year would be great. I'm not too optimistic, but that didn't stop me from letting the college know I was an alumni of their school for both my B.A and M.A. :happy
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by anon_investor »

A440 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:59 pm There seemed to be enough positive responses to give it a try. I included the offers from the two competing schools. Even a couple thousand more a year would be great. I'm not too optimistic, but that didn't stop me from letting the college know I was an alumni of their school for both my B.A and M.A. :happy
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Be very careful with the strategy to go 2 years to El Cheapo college, then transfer to Wicked Good College. Several things can bite you:

1: Kiss all merit aid goodbye. If Wicked Good College offered only $1k vs El Cheapo giving you $20k, expect Wicked Good to offer zip on transfer.

2: Courses are absolutely NOT equal from one college to another. My son found this out transferring from Mediocre Engineering College to Wicked Primo Institute. He found in reviewing Calc 1 and Calc 2 that Wicked Primo College taught about double the content in each course. Although he was given transfer credit, he took Calc 2 again and did independent work getting calc 1, while taking calc 3.

3: Courses below a B typically won't transfer.

4: If a course isn't determined to be equal by Wicked Primo College, it won't transfer. I found this myself, when taking my associates courses into Bachelors, 2 years of courses went nowhere. English Comp 101 transferred. That's all. No physics, no math.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by texasdiver »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:19 pm Be very careful with the strategy to go 2 years to El Cheapo college, then transfer to Wicked Good College. Several things can bite you:

1: Kiss all merit aid goodbye. If Wicked Good College offered only $1k vs El Cheapo giving you $20k, expect Wicked Good to offer zip on transfer.

2: Courses are absolutely NOT equal from one college to another. My son found this out transferring from Mediocre Engineering College to Wicked Primo Institute. He found in reviewing Calc 1 and Calc 2 that Wicked Primo College taught about double the content in each course. Although he was given transfer credit, he took Calc 2 again and did independent work getting calc 1, while taking calc 3.

3: Courses below a B typically won't transfer.

4: If a course isn't determined to be equal by Wicked Primo College, it won't transfer. I found this myself, when taking my associates courses into Bachelors, 2 years of courses went nowhere. English Comp 101 transferred. That's all. No physics, no math.
Other problems with this strategy (and the similar strategy of saving money by attending community college for the first two years).

5. In the sciences, most students are lining up research opportunities and internships and recommendations by the middle of their junior year. Students who have only been on campus for one semester are going to be at a serious disadvantage to students who have been there for 2.5 years in terms of knowing professors, support groups, and so forth. You will often be seeking help and advice from professors who have never seen you before if you are a transfer, vs professors who have known you and seen what you can do in class for two years. It is a lot easier to get a professor to go to bat for you if they actually know you.

6. Most friend groups in college are formed during freshman year. It can be really hard to break into these when you show up as a junior not knowing anyone. I know this because I was a college transfer student myself, and never really did completely break into the social life at my new school.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by celia »

It seems there is not much info on which colleges we are discussing. What I easily learned when our kids were applying to college is you won't get any/very much money from state schools since their enrollment is so large while their endowments are usually small. Those whose parents aren't working (or at minimum wage) will likely get the aid first, then the pot is out of money.

TomatoTomahto wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:32 am ETA: nothing against SUNY Oswego; a good friend of mine attended back in the day, but man, that’s the coldest and windiest campus in the universe.
How can it be so cold there when it is also SUNNY? :o :o :o
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by texasdiver »

A440 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:29 am The May 1st deadline for choosing a college is quickly approaching. Our son has received merit scholarship offers at all but one school in which he has applied. Three in-state schools have offered a range of full tuition, $9,000/year, and $4,000/year. The later two have a major in which he is interested. All 3 have a net cost in the same range (~$32,000/year) before the scholarships.
The school with the least amount of aid offered is (of course) of most interest to him and also the most selective. Should we approach that school and ask for more merit aid showing that competing state schools are offering more? Has anyone has success with this? If so, what is the best way to do this?
We did this exact thing last month and it netted an additional $10,000 in merit per year from the school in question. I just wrote a letter explaining that my daughter really liked the school but that they were not being competitive with the other peer institutions in the region. I provided a detailed spreadsheet of costs and merit aid offers from each school and attached .pdfs of all the actual financial aid offers to document every number. Two weeks later my daughter quietly got an email that her financial aid award had been amended and in the portal was another $10K of merit aid. But make sure it is actually a 4-year award and not just some one-year bonus they are tacking on.

In the end her first choice school came through with an offer so we didn't take the one that offered more merit anyway.

Just remember that merit aid is nothing more than a pricing mechanism to make lower rated schools competitive with their higher rated peers. It has nothing to do with your child's intrinsic merit.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by A440 »

Update:
So the most selective school courteously responded with a "no". Apparently, we are already receiving the "maximum merit amount" that they offer students. Oh well...it was worth a shot.
In the end, our student has decided to go to this school over the less selective schools that offered more in merit aid. IMHO, it was an excellent decision on his part.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by Nebraska_Drought »

texasdiver wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:38 pm
A440 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:29 am Just remember that merit aid is nothing more than a pricing mechanism to make lower rated schools competitive with their higher rated peers. It has nothing to do with your child's intrinsic merit.


I'd have to disagree with you on this, as this blanket statement is far from being true. Using my son as an example, he is in a good engineering program at a state school. About a decade ago, the University was actively trying to build up programs on their campus and pushed into many STEM fields all the while attracting top firms to be on campus and even have adjunct faculty from these firms teaching some classes. They also have some substantial benefactors who provide full academic "rides" for kids going into STEM fields. It is very selective and they accept 25-30 kids a year into these programs. To even apply you need to have a minimum of a 32 ACT score and be a well rounded HS student. They are looking for leaders. Why I disagree with your statement, they are not a lower rated school by any means. They are doing something different/special on their campus that builds future leaders and they are doing so with many top engineering/tech firms right on their campus. As a freshman, my son has had multiple internship offers with firms all over the country. In his field, they can't graduate enough kids to fill jobs. Lower rated institutions would not be able to do this and they are very competitive for any student wanting to go into STEM fields. We pay $0 out of pocket for school. He has room/board/tuition/books/parking/computer provided along with weekly maid service in his 4 room/person suite. IMO, that is being pretty darn competitive and they are not doing so because they are a lower rated school, they are doing so with great benefactors and a "new" way of providing the college experience.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by texasdiver »

Nebraska_Drought wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:18 am
texasdiver wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:38 pm
Just remember that merit aid is nothing more than a pricing mechanism to make lower rated schools competitive with their higher rated peers. It has nothing to do with your child's intrinsic merit.


I'd have to disagree with you on this, as this blanket statement is far from being true. Using my son as an example, he is in a good engineering program at a state school. About a decade ago, the University was actively trying to build up programs on their campus and pushed into many STEM fields all the while attracting top firms to be on campus and even have adjunct faculty from these firms teaching some classes. They also have some substantial benefactors who provide full academic "rides" for kids going into STEM fields. It is very selective and they accept 25-30 kids a year into these programs. To even apply you need to have a minimum of a 32 ACT score and be a well rounded HS student. They are looking for leaders. Why I disagree with your statement, they are not a lower rated school by any means. They are doing something different/special on their campus that builds future leaders and they are doing so with many top engineering/tech firms right on their campus. As a freshman, my son has had multiple internship offers with firms all over the country. In his field, they can't graduate enough kids to fill jobs. Lower rated institutions would not be able to do this and they are very competitive for any student wanting to go into STEM fields. We pay $0 out of pocket for school. He has room/board/tuition/books/parking/computer provided along with weekly maid service in his 4 room/person suite. IMO, that is being pretty darn competitive and they are not doing so because they are a lower rated school, they are doing so with great benefactors and a "new" way of providing the college experience.
Of course there are always exceptions. Special dedicated scholarships funded by donated endowments and such. But for the vast majority of schools, merit aid is a way of sealing the deal with upper income students who might otherwise be attracted to higher rated institutions.

In your case if the school in question had offered no merit aid at all, would they still have retained all of their top applicants? Or would they have lost some to Stanford, MIT, Caltech, Harvard, etc?
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by interwebopinion »

As a counterpoint, I've seen multiple examples of this working out.

In California, spots at all UCs are set aside for community college transfers. One student I knew who was already coding part time for a startup in high-school skipped the whole college process. He just was too busy to even start it. He then went to CC while holding a full-time software engineer job for the first couple of years. Then he transferred smoothly to UC Berkeley, and is graduating soon with a CS degree. He has multiple job offers lined up. No debt, no fuss.

Another student I know took a guaranteed transfer option at Cornell. They spent the first year at a local CC and then just had to provide grades from the CC to complete the transfer.

In both cases, they saved a ton of money, had a great college experience and ended up with great friends at these places.

For the motivated student, transfer options can work out very well.
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:19 pm Be very careful with the strategy to go 2 years to El Cheapo college, then transfer to Wicked Good College. Several things can bite you:

1: Kiss all merit aid goodbye. If Wicked Good College offered only $1k vs El Cheapo giving you $20k, expect Wicked Good to offer zip on transfer.

2: Courses are absolutely NOT equal from one college to another. My son found this out transferring from Mediocre Engineering College to Wicked Primo Institute. He found in reviewing Calc 1 and Calc 2 that Wicked Primo College taught about double the content in each course. Although he was given transfer credit, he took Calc 2 again and did independent work getting calc 1, while taking calc 3.

3: Courses below a B typically won't transfer.

4: If a course isn't determined to be equal by Wicked Primo College, it won't transfer. I found this myself, when taking my associates courses into Bachelors, 2 years of courses went nowhere. English Comp 101 transferred. That's all. No physics, no math.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by texasdiver »

interwebopinion wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:22 pm As a counterpoint, I've seen multiple examples of this working out.

In California, spots at all UCs are set aside for community college transfers. One student I knew who was already coding part time for a startup in high-school skipped the whole college process. He just was too busy to even start it. He then went to CC while holding a full-time software engineer job for the first couple of years. Then he transferred smoothly to UC Berkeley, and is graduating soon with a CS degree. He has multiple job offers lined up. No debt, no fuss.

Another student I know took a guaranteed transfer option at Cornell. They spent the first year at a local CC and then just had to provide grades from the CC to complete the transfer.

In both cases, they saved a ton of money, had a great college experience and ended up with great friends at these places.

For the motivated student, transfer options can work out very well.
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:19 pm Be very careful with the strategy to go 2 years to El Cheapo college, then transfer to Wicked Good College. Several things can bite you:

1: Kiss all merit aid goodbye. If Wicked Good College offered only $1k vs El Cheapo giving you $20k, expect Wicked Good to offer zip on transfer.

2: Courses are absolutely NOT equal from one college to another. My son found this out transferring from Mediocre Engineering College to Wicked Primo Institute. He found in reviewing Calc 1 and Calc 2 that Wicked Primo College taught about double the content in each course. Although he was given transfer credit, he took Calc 2 again and did independent work getting calc 1, while taking calc 3.

3: Courses below a B typically won't transfer.

4: If a course isn't determined to be equal by Wicked Primo College, it won't transfer. I found this myself, when taking my associates courses into Bachelors, 2 years of courses went nowhere. English Comp 101 transferred. That's all. No physics, no math.
As a HS teacher I have seen a LOT of kids take this route. I was also a lateral transfer (from one 4 year to another) so have some personal experience. Several caveats.

1. In college most of the friends you make are mostly made in your freshman year. I found it really hard to break into social groups and make friends as a junior transfer as all those groups were already mostly made based on shared experiences freshmen and sophomore year in the dorms and such.

2. In a lot of fields like pursuing graduate studies in the sciences, you are highly reliant on professors for recommendations, as well as for them to take you under their wing in research projects and such. This is MUCH harder to do as a junior transfer because none of the professors know who you are and haven't had you in class. You have to start linking up internships and such almost immediately but don't have the network built up yet.

3. And yes, the courses are often not remotely comparable, especially in the hard sciences. Organic Chemistry is not going to be the same course at some inner-city community college as it will be at MIT or Stanford or Michigan. Not even close. It isn't just a question of resources. It is a question of peers. If you are in a room full of very top students with nothing to do but study the professor can go so much faster than in a community college setting with a very diverse group of students, some with limited English, others who failed HS and are recovering credits, some who are single parents working full time and going to school on the side etc. etc.

Yes you can save some money. But there are costs as well.
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Re: Asking for more Merit aid? College decision day 5/1

Post by orcycle »

We asked for more merit aid via email, I listed all the scholarship offers and named the schools, got a reply that they would review it, and in a few days we got a letter that our child received a named scholarship for $2,500/year, so $10,000 total. My child was intent on going to this school regardless (and we agreed that it was the best fit), so getting some extra money from them by spending fifteen minutes writing an email seemed like a good reward/effort.

Bear in mind this was last year, when the pandemic was wreaking havoc on colleges and families trying to decide whether to pay for college in very uncertain times. This school also unilaterally gave every student $1,000 the first semester as a "COVID Relief Grant." This is also a medium-sized private school. I imagine the climate is still uncertain and competition for students variable across prestigious schools, but sending a polite email with facts and numbers seems like an easy thing to do.
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