Remote working situation - questions

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stocknoob4111
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Remote working situation - questions

Post by stocknoob4111 »

Been in tech for the last 22 years (since the late 90s) and working 100% remote was always more of an exception rather than the rule. I feel that employers generally hated the idea and allowed someone to work remotely only if there wasn't any other alternative and they really needed that person.

However, now with Covid things have radically changed. I see more and more job listings that specifically mention fully remote as a possibility.

That brings me to my current situation. I moved from Southern CA in the middle of 2020 to take up a new job here in the Dallas area. I had asked the company if I was able to work remote from CA but they specifically wanted the position staffed in Dallas so I had to move. However, my ultimate goal is to have a gig where I can work remote from anywhere without restrictions (including from outside the US).

My immediate short term goal (within the next 2 years) is to relocate to Las Vegas area. My employer sent a memo recently that they are against fully remote because they believe in personal interactions so the future will be a combo of in person and remote. That makes me think they are rather rigid about it.

I'm wondering what is the best course of action. Been at my current job for 8 months now. I think I want to stay on at my current position for at least another year so A) should I try to see if they are open to fully remote right away (if they are then I would move as soon as my apartment lease is up in about 6 months) or B) should I have this conversation closer to 1 year from now with alternate job offer in hand?

My thoughts were that if I let the cat out of the bag that I want to work remote then it will give them the idea that I may be looking elsewhere. Also, closer to a year from now if I find another fully remote gig and I approach with offer in hand I can just quit the job if they don't agree and move on. As I said i'm not ready to do that right now. Also, I would prefer to stay with this company if they let me work remote. That would be ideal since I like the job, team and pay/benefits.
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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Remote working situation - questions

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

sounds like they want a mix of remote and face to face and aren't willing to change that. ("My employer sent a memo recently that they are against fully remote because they believe in personal interactions so the future will be a combo of in person and remote. That makes me think they are rather rigid about it.")

if you want full remote it doesn't sound like you're going to get that there if they think differently from you.

why would you want to put yourself in a position of trying to change the company's values to be more aligned to yours?

would be better to go to a company that shares your values for full remote work.

start looking and leave when you get what you want.
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runner3081
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Re: Remote working situation - questions

Post by runner3081 »

stocknoob4111 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:00 am A) should I try to see if they are open to fully remote right away (if they are then I would move as soon as my apartment lease is up in about 6 months) or B) should I have this conversation closer to 1 year from now with alternate job offer in hand?
I would go option "C". Find another job and just move on.

Option A is not even an option, they have made it clear what they want. Unless there are others in the office 100% remote, I would leave it alone.
Option B is not a good option. Fast forward, you find a new job, and ask current employer about remote. They say, "sure". 1-year later they come to you and say, oops, not going to work anymore. Puts you right back in the same spot you are trying to avoid. (granted this could happen at a new employer, but if, from day 1, the arrangement is remote, it is more likely to stick)
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BrooklynInvest
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Re: Remote working situation - questions

Post by BrooklynInvest »

OP,

Could be my experiences but I wouldn't have any conversations too far in advance.

I do believe that the proximity helps immensely with personal relationships but isn't there a third path to explore? You propose your remote solution but also commit to being on site say 2 months per year. Cheap apartment close to the office. Granted extra costs for someone and I know how well those conversations can go...

Now that I'm writing it all down and reading it, maybe just find a different gig? ;-)
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greg24
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Re: Remote working situation - questions

Post by greg24 »

stocknoob4111 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:00 am My employer sent a memo recently that they are against fully remote because they believe in personal interactions so the future will be a combo of in person and remote. That makes me think they are rather rigid about it.
If they recently went out of their way to send out a memo that says they are against fully remote, I think your chances of a fully remote position with this employer is extremely low.

Keep doing your job, and start looking for a 100% remote position. It may take a while to find the right fit.
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stocknoob4111
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Re: Remote working situation - questions

Post by stocknoob4111 »

greg24 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:07 am If they recently went out of their way to send out a memo that says they are against fully remote, I think your chances of a fully remote position with this employer is extremely low.
I was thinking perhaps this was just their public stance since they fear everyone would ask for remote if they opened the floodgates. I guess it does not hurt to give it a shot when I am ready if I have another offer in hand.
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Re: Remote working situation - questions

Post by tashnewbie »

If your employer wasn’t open to fully remote work during this pandemic over the past 12+ months, I don’t see them becoming more flexible as time passes, at least not in the immediate future.

I’d start exploring other options now. Maybe something you’re really excited about will come along within the next 6-12 months.
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Re: Remote working situation - questions

Post by humblecoder »

stocknoob4111 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:44 pm
greg24 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:07 am If they recently went out of their way to send out a memo that says they are against fully remote, I think your chances of a fully remote position with this employer is extremely low.
I was thinking perhaps this was just their public stance since they fear everyone would ask for remote if they opened the floodgates. I guess it does not hurt to give it a shot when I am ready if I have another offer in hand.
Yes, it does hurt you.

Let's say you come back to them with another job offer, but you tell them that you will stay on if they allow you to be 100% remote. There is a good chance that, even if they do agree, you will be at a disadvantage when it comes to any promotion opportunities or even choice lateral assignments. If I were the company, am I going to give the promotion to you or to somebody else who works in the office face-to-face?

Also, consider when it comes time to lay people off. If it is between you and an equal or even slightly lesser candidate, you are probably going to be the one walked out the door.

At least at an all-virtual company or a company that is mostly virtual, you'll be on equal footing with everyone. However, when you are the only person who is all-remote, you are at a severe disadvantage in the workplace.

If I wanted to work 100% remote, I'd look for a company that specifically allows and welcomes this as a rule, and not as an exception.

All that said, I doubt the company would allow you to work 100% remote even if you threatened to leave for another job. It sets a precedent. Once they allow an exception for you, others will likely want the same exception.
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Re: Remote working situation - questions

Post by stocknoob4111 »

humblecoder wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:11 pm Yes, it does hurt you.

Let's say you come back to them with another job offer, but you tell them that you will stay on if they allow you to be 100% remote. There is a good chance that, even if they do agree, you will be at a disadvantage when it comes to any promotion opportunities or even choice lateral assignments.
Except, that I don't care about promotions, I am retiring at the end of 2024 so the remote situation will only be from Mar 2023 to Dec 2024. The cons of finding another jobs are that it's probably going to be at a substantially lesser pay as most companies in tech are not paying much these days (while requiring the universe in skills) and i've only found a few (my current company being one of them) that have good compensation packages.
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Re: Remote working situation - questions

Post by humblecoder »

stocknoob4111 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:33 pm
humblecoder wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:11 pm Yes, it does hurt you.

Let's say you come back to them with another job offer, but you tell them that you will stay on if they allow you to be 100% remote. There is a good chance that, even if they do agree, you will be at a disadvantage when it comes to any promotion opportunities or even choice lateral assignments.
Except, that I don't care about promotions, I am retiring at the end of 2024 so the remote situation will only be from Mar 2023 to Dec 2024. The cons of finding another jobs are that it's probably going to be at a substantially lesser pay as most companies in tech are not paying much these days (while requiring the universe in skills) and i've only found a few (my current company being one of them) that have good compensation packages.
Thanks for the clarification.

I guess you need to decide whether the flexibility of working from home is worth the potential pay cut.

Also, consider that if you are a "short timer" that maybe it is worthwhile to stick with your current job, in person, through 2024. It's only an extra 2 years.

At the end of the day, you need to decide for yourself what's important to you. No piece of advice that any anonymous person is going to give you will help in that regard.
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Re: Remote working situation - questions

Post by Normchad »

I would just start looking for a new job that suits you. And if you find it, take it. And if not, stay put. It doesn't cost you anything to look.

Someone pointed out in another thread, look at companies where more than 50% of the people are remote, and were already that way before the pandemic. Those are the companies that really embrace it, and know how to make it work. A big difference from "begrudging acceptance".
Marseille07
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Re: Remote working situation - questions

Post by Marseille07 »

Option A. Just ask them casually how likely they would allow you to go remote. I mean, do you have co-workers working 100% remote? It's not at all unusual to make such arrangements, especially during / after covid.

I left the Bay Area recently using the "getaway" program my company offered during the pandemic. I don't yet know if I can become 100% remote, but I already told them I'm not interested in moving back to the Bay Area; however I would relocate to their non-CA locations.

I don't know why you want to leave Dallas though. I moved north and this is too cold for my liking, somewhere like Dallas is exactly where I'm looking to move to next.
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Re: Remote working situation - questions

Post by elle »

Now feels like a perfectly good time to take advantage of the pandemic uncertainty to have a conversation with you manager about his stance on WFH for the long term. I have found in my experience, that this can be vary by individual despite what the corporation says.

That said... it’s really a personal decision - is the pay cut worth working remote? Does that put you off track from your retirement plan? If so, I’d probably just suck it up and stick to the job for another couple years. If not, c’est la vie!
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Re: Remote working situation - questions

Post by JoeRetire »

stocknoob4111 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:00 am I'm wondering what is the best course of action. Been at my current job for 8 months now. I think I want to stay on at my current position for at least another year so A) should I try to see if they are open to fully remote right away (if they are then I would move as soon as my apartment lease is up in about 6 months) or B) should I have this conversation closer to 1 year from now with alternate job offer in hand?

My thoughts were that if I let the cat out of the bag that I want to work remote then it will give them the idea that I may be looking elsewhere. Also, closer to a year from now if I find another fully remote gig and I approach with offer in hand I can just quit the job if they don't agree and move on. As I said i'm not ready to do that right now. Also, I would prefer to stay with this company if they let me work remote. That would be ideal since I like the job, team and pay/benefits.
The smart thing to do would be to wait and watch.

Continue to work hard. See how rigid the company actually is once the pandemic eases. And see what others in your company are doing.

Then, when the time is right you'll have a better idea if the company would be willing to let you work remotely, or if you'll simply need to find a new employer. Maybe you'll be able to force your employer to allow you to work from Las Vegas due to your extremely high value, maybe not. If they are truly "rigid", then most likely not.

(In my experience, the "I have an offer so let me do whatever I want or else" is a waste of time. As a manager, I would never give in to that sort of threat. In my domain, it's always easy to get another offer.)
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Re: Remote working situation - questions

Post by chipperd »

JoeRetire wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:17 am
stocknoob4111 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:00 am I'm wondering what is the best course of action. Been at my current job for 8 months now. I think I want to stay on at my current position for at least another year so A) should I try to see if they are open to fully remote right away (if they are then I would move as soon as my apartment lease is up in about 6 months) or B) should I have this conversation closer to 1 year from now with alternate job offer in hand?

My thoughts were that if I let the cat out of the bag that I want to work remote then it will give them the idea that I may be looking elsewhere. Also, closer to a year from now if I find another fully remote gig and I approach with offer in hand I can just quit the job if they don't agree and move on. As I said i'm not ready to do that right now. Also, I would prefer to stay with this company if they let me work remote. That would be ideal since I like the job, team and pay/benefits.
The smart thing to do would be to wait and watch.

Continue to work hard. See how rigid the company actually is once the pandemic eases. And see what others in your company are doing.

Then, when the time is right you'll have a better idea if the company would be willing to let you work remotely, or if you'll simply need to find a new employer. Maybe you'll be able to force your employer to allow you to work from Las Vegas due to your extremely high value, maybe not. If they are truly "rigid", then most likely not.

(In my experience, the "I have an offer so let me do whatever I want or else" is a waste of time. As a manager, I would never give in to that sort of threat. In my domain, it's always easy to get another offer.)
+1 on what JoeRetire posted here, esp. the highlighted part.
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stocknoob4111
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Re: Remote working situation - questions

Post by stocknoob4111 »

what I failed to mention is that this particular company is based in Seattle and most of my team (75%) is based there. So, I am going to be interacting remotely ALWAYS with folks there. One of the key reasons they expanded into Dallas was due to the insane competition for tech talent in Seattle. That was what was communicated to me. So, if that is true then I can't see why it would be a problem where I work. Yes, they may have a beef with me if I say I am wanting to work from Tahiti but Nevada is reasonably local.
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Re: Remote working situation - questions

Post by Afty »

stocknoob4111 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:20 pm what I failed to mention is that this particular company is based in Seattle and most of my team (75%) is based there. So, I am going to be interacting remotely ALWAYS with folks there. One of the key reasons they expanded into Dallas was due to the insane competition for tech talent in Seattle. That was what was communicated to me. So, if that is true then I can't see why it would be a problem where I work. Yes, they may have a beef with me if I say I am wanting to work from Tahiti but Nevada is reasonably local.
Personally, I think it’s worth asking. You might not get the answer you want, but if you don’t ask you definitely won’t.

Previously I was a manager at a tech company that was pretty anti-remote-work. One of my reports wanted to stay remote after the pandemic ends. Even though the company as a whole and even my org discouraged it, I was willing to go to bat for this person and do what I could to keep him. I put my chance of success at 50% and tried to set his expectations accordingly.
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Re: Remote working situation - questions

Post by anon3838 »

Before covid I had several colleagues announce they were resigning because they were moving out of the area. Then suddenly they were fully remote workers and stayed in their role.

Perhaps consider resigning when you’re ready to move and see if they offer remote as an option. At the same time, I would go ahead and have something else lined up if you can’t afford a gap in employment. Then you can choose the new place or stay where are you and be fully remote, if they offer that to you.

Good luck.
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Re: Remote working situation - questions

Post by invest4 »

Please also keep in mind the company may have to jump through some legal and other hoops if they do not have a presence in the state you want to work from.
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Re: Remote working situation - questions

Post by Marseille07 »

stocknoob4111 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:20 pm what I failed to mention is that this particular company is based in Seattle and most of my team (75%) is based there. So, I am going to be interacting remotely ALWAYS with folks there. One of the key reasons they expanded into Dallas was due to the insane competition for tech talent in Seattle. That was what was communicated to me. So, if that is true then I can't see why it would be a problem where I work. Yes, they may have a beef with me if I say I am wanting to work from Tahiti but Nevada is reasonably local.
Did you end up leaving Dallas? I'm revisiting my Dallas plans again, as PNW's weather is a meh.
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Re: Remote working situation - questions

Post by stocknoob4111 »

Marseille07 wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:31 am Did you end up leaving Dallas? I'm revisiting my Dallas plans again, as PNW's weather is a meh.
Nope, I am still in Dallas, my plans are tentative to leave in early 2023 although I am being considered for a promotion at work in the near future so I am sure given current company culture moving off location may not be in my best interest in getting that promotion, so I am still evaluating everything - i.e. lifestyle vs career.

Dallas definitely has it's pros - cost of living is very attractive compared to the pay and job opportunities, weather is halfway decent - although highly erratic at times, gasoline and electricity are dirt cheap here. Compared to other metros in the country Dallas definitely has a very good bang for the buck.
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Re: Remote working situation - questions

Post by Marseille07 »

stocknoob4111 wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 8:41 am Nope, I am still in Dallas, my plans are tentative to leave in early 2023 although I am being considered for a promotion at work in the near future so I am sure given current company culture moving off location may not be in my best interest in getting that promotion, so I am still evaluating everything - i.e. lifestyle vs career.

Dallas definitely has it's pros - cost of living is very attractive compared to the pay and job opportunities, weather is halfway decent - although highly erratic at times, gasoline and electricity are dirt cheap here. Compared to other metros in the country Dallas definitely has a very good bang for the buck.
Awesome. Yeah if you're considered for a promo and moving would jeopardize that, then staying makes sense :beer

I'm looking at North Dallas like Plano / Frisco / McKiinney. I'm also evaluating though, there are some places I want to visit in PNW before moving, but the new cases are going crazy and I might have to put the plans on hold, in which case I need to stay.
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