What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

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friar1610
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by friar1610 »

dbr wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:35 pm
friar1610 wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:28 pm
dbr wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:20 pm
I am not sure exactly what goes on at VPAS for assets that are not at Vanguard. I am sure they do not actually manage those assets, but I have never been able to figure out to what degree they advise how the investor should manage those assets. Of course I do not have accounts at Vanguard or use VPAS.
As I mentioned upthread (back when this thread was started) my impression is they don’t do much or anything at all. From my earlier post:
My main issue is that PAS deals only with Vanguard assets. I have a big chunk of I-Bonds, a direct CD ladder and an unannuitized deferred annuity in addition to several VG accounts. (VG assets are the majority of my holdings.) I don’t necessarily want to liquidate those holdings and turn them over to VG to place in their funds. But I do want my assets to be viewed comprehensively with recommendations covering all my assets as a cohesive whole. VG told me they couldn’t manage those non-VG assets (which I totally understand) but they would consider those assets when making recommendations for the VG assets. But when they produced the plan/recommendations, I never saw any indication that they had done so. (We had discussed the fact that I would like to shoot for a 50/50 overall allocation. They gave me that in VG funds. But the I-Bonds and CDs (which they’d said they would consider) brought the overall allocation to more like 35/65. And they didn’t have a good answer how they’d “considered” the non-VG stuff.
I would love to hear from any BHs who use PAS and who have been satisfied that VG does in fact look at their whole financial picture while doing hands-on management only for the VG part. Any specific examples would be great.
For the benefit of others this is helpful. I guess the contradiction between what they said and what they did is the essence of the problem. I
In fairness to VG...I had a subsequent recollection of a PM exchange I had with another BH about 3 years ago on the issue of non-VG assets in PAS and his experience was more satisfying than mine. (I was just getting a proposal but he is actually enrolled in the program).

All of my investments, whether held at Vanguard or not, are included in my PAS investor profile so my advisor can see them (you can input such assets manually). I have to update the value of my 401(k) account myself.... and I have to ensure than my advisor knows what the external investments consist of both in terms of the type of investments and their value. That allows my advisor to consider their impact on my portfolio as a whole, so that the managed portion he handles is invested in a way which contributes to a holistic whole rather than is a separate and uncoordinated sub-portfolio. My advisor also takes into account the impact of my... pension and deferred compensation income...to understand my income needs in retirement.

...I have found that my PAS portfolio is managed with sensitivity to the nature and value of non-PAS assets. The PAS financial plan includes all my investments, both PAS and non-PAS, in calculating portfolio longevity and annual withdrawal rates in retirement. So it does not appear that there is any institutional inability for PAS to consider your CDs and other non-Vanguard assets in designing and managing your PAS portfolio. ...
So, based on this individual’s experience, PAS appears to be addressing the concerns I have. Maybe time for another look.
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DesertGator
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by DesertGator »

afan wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:16 pm
DesertGator wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:52 pm
So, I think having a Facebook presence may indicate some technical/modern savvy, but bad judgement regarding the risks of this platform.
Interesting. I know quite a few software engineers. Some work in security for the biggest tech companies. Every one of them has a Facebook page
Let's start with Cambridge Analytica. Then continue with:

https://selfkey.org/facebooks-data-breaches-a-timeline/
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by NeoNeo »

I think I need to step into this thread. I'm a fairly savvy Boglehead, aged 42, who's been investing DIY since the early 2000s but I decided to try out VPAS exactly two years ago, in January 2020. Since then, I had one competent, responsive Personal Advisor who was a Certified Financial Planner as well (CFP). As part of the going under VPAS, I handed over 2 accounts, an Inherited IRA and a Roth IRA. He implemented a "Plan" (basically a four-fund portfolio of VTI, VXUS, BND, BNDX, roughly 70% stocks, of which 70% was domestic). The Advisor let me stay overweight a little on small caps and REITs (so in the end, it was similar to my DIY allocation, but slightly more international stocks and a lot more international bonds). He gave general advice on cashflow, whether or not to refi my mortgage, stuff like that, but no fancy models or spreadsheets on anything, ever (I did those myself). He rebalanced quarterly or we used our quarterly calls to make small adjustments (he was open to my ideas). He wasn't doing anything I couldn't do myself, but because the two managed accounts were hands off, he was protection for me against panic-selling. I coasted through the rollercoaster of February to April 2020 smoothly because the bulk of my investments, in these 2 accounts, were hands off.

However, the big red flag is how Vanguard as a company is handling VPAS clients like me the past 2 months. My advisor told me in late November that Vanguard is changing its model and "mass affluent" clients like me were being handed off to a team of advisors, not a dedicated one. However, there was no messaging from Vanguard itself saying any of this. The only change was that my advisor's name and photo seemed to get taken off the VPAS Dashboard some time in December, but nothing was put in its place. It's very shady. I finally used the VPAS Dashboard online scheduler to request a phone call with my Advisor, and in doing so (nothing available for the next 10 days!) I finally saw the name of the person. A new person entirely (and when I looked him up, I see from his LinkedIn he's very young, a recent grad). But VPAS as a service was not proactive and did not tell me I had a new Advisor (or an Advisory Team). So on that front, I'm disappointed. I also feel I've gotten better at following my plan and not panic-selling, so I'm likely to leave the service this month (so I don't pay for another quarter year at the 0.30% rate). Hope this helps you all!
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by bhjjk19 »

Yes, your post helps. I was considering telling my wife to go with VPAS if something unexpected happened to me. Now VPAS is totally off the table. I will likely suggest an all-in-one fund, Life Strategy or move everything to Schwab. It seems Vanguard is doing everything to push their loyal long time clients away. I'm sick that I keep seeing these terrible customer service issues.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by Barkingsparrow »

bhjjk19 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:25 pm Yes, your post helps. I was considering telling my wife to go with VPAS if something unexpected happened to me. Now VPAS is totally off the table. I will likely suggest an all-in-one fund, Life Strategy or move everything to Schwab. It seems Vanguard is doing everything to push their loyal long time clients away. I'm sick that I keep seeing these terrible customer service issues.
Kind of have the same dilemma - how will my wife, who is not particularly financially astute, handle the investments if something happened to me. I had thought maybe VPAS but I was skeptical. That said, I'm not exactly enamored with going the Schwab route - can we trust them to be fiduciaries, or, will they try and get her to move to funds not really in her best interest?
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by bhjjk19 »

I understand your comments about Schwab. I looked at their funds and I found that I prefer Vanguard funds over Schwab. I do not like the fact that Schwab forces you to 5% in cash so they can profit a portion of its return. I don't like that they don't have their own Bond Fund offerings.
I DO LIKE that they have superior customer service. I DO LIKE that they are the only fund company that is local to us (Buffalo, NY area).
I believe you can hold Vanguard funds with no added cost.
My wife will absolutely need hand holding and therefore Schwab is still strong on my radar in the near future.
I turned 68 today; by 70 or 72 I will decide if I will transfer to Schwab. I believe I will and will continue to manage my own portfolio until then.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by AlphaLess »

I have some feedback in this respect, albeit in a different direction.

1. We reached $5M in assets at VG a while ago (cant' remember exact date, but likely in 2020). Around 50% of our assets are elsewhere,

2. Since reaching that level, on a clock, once a year, there is a push by the personal rep to "discuss" the PAS service.

Last year, I blew the appointment, because I was very busy: just canceled at a short notice.
This year, I took the appointment.

Several issues, all red flags.

Personal reps points:
- get an introductory call to understand offerings,
- need much less in assets under management to user service (won't specify how much),
- understand what the advice entails.

PAS Advisors call:
- hello, I am glad you have decided to sign up for this service, let's get started,
- need at least $5M under assets to do this.

Me:
- let's slow down, I don't even know what I am signing up for,
- what about the $50K minimum you guys have on the website?

Anyway, I am very close to moving enough assets out of Vanguard to Fidelity to get below $5M.

Too bad Fido does not have some juicy brokerage deposit bonuses.
Last edited by AlphaLess on Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by cowdogman »

AlphaLess wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:24 pm
Anyway, I very close to moving enough assets out of Vanguard to Fidelity to get below $5M.
Vanguard seems to get oilier by the day.

Not sure why you want to get below $5M with Vanguard (because you're right, Vanguard is happy to take your money for PAS even with amounts well under $5M), altho assets above $5M don't get you much.

P.S., Ahh, I now see that VG now has a "Wealth Management" level for PAS for amounts over $5M. Vanguard is turning into Raymond James.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by sleepysurf »

Sounds like AlphaLess was actually being pitched their new Wealth Management service, which is a new advisory tier for higher net worth clients, above and beyond the 0.3% PAS option... https://investor.vanguard.com/wealth-management

There was a recent thread talking about the rollout... viewtopic.php?p=6408141

I imagine most Bogleheads, even if they qualified, wouldn't be interested. However, Vanguard is likely targeting HNW individuals (and families) that are currently using other, more expensive, Wealth Advisors. IMHO, that's a good thing, as the competition will bring down fees for that entire cohort, just as Vanguard has done for the average investor.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by lostdog »

If we move to Schwab and I pass away someday, will Schwab take advantage of my wife's limited knowledge about investing?
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dbr
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by dbr »

lostdog wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:42 pm If we move to Schwab and I pass away someday, will Schwab take advantage of my wife's limited knowledge about investing?
They certainly won't if you make sure she understands a few fundamentals, especially about how costs take money away and making sure she just sticks to the plan and doesn't try to do more just because someone wants to sell something. Seeing what the plan looks like is probably a good thing. But on the whole no.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by fourwheelcycle »

cowdogman wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:08 pm P.S., Ahh, I now see that VG now has a "Wealth Management" level for PAS for amounts over $5M. Vanguard is turning into Raymond James.
I don't think Vanguard's new Wealth Management page is part of their PAS program, I think it is just a re-branding of their Flagship Select program. If you go to their search line and type in Flagship Select, nothing labeled Flagship Select pops up - all you get is their new Wealth Management page. I think their reference to a concierge, or RM (Relationship Manager), is just a new job title for their previous Flagship Select representatives.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by cowdogman »

fourwheelcycle wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:48 am
cowdogman wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:08 pm P.S., Ahh, I now see that VG now has a "Wealth Management" level for PAS for amounts over $5M. Vanguard is turning into Raymond James.
I don't think Vanguard's new Wealth Management page is part of their PAS program, I think it is just a re-branding of their Flagship Select program. If you go to their search line and type in Flagship Select, nothing labeled Flagship Select pops up - all you get is their new Wealth Management page. I think their reference to a concierge, or RM (Relationship Manager), is just a new job title for their previous Flagship Select representatives.
You may be right, but I don't think so. See this page and note the various references to PAS: https://investor.vanguard.com/wealth-management

I've been Flagship Select for several years and Flagship for a very long time. The services VG is talking about on the page above are for PAS customers. For example, I don't think Vanguard offers a free portfolio review anymore for Flagship or Flagship Select customers. See https://investor.vanguard.com/investing ... s/flagship and note the requirement to sign up to PAS for investment advice.

One of the problems I have with PAS and Vanguard in general is that it hides the ball on what it offers for free (pretty much nothing now) and is misleading about the scope of PAS--that is, making it sound like a comprehensive financial advisor when it's really just a robo-investment-advisor with a human contact point.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by fourwheelcycle »

cowdogman wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:00 am
You may be right, but I don't think so. See this page and note the various references to PAS: https://investor.vanguard.com/wealth-management
You have to search carefully at Vanguard's web site to find clear descriptions of their current account levels. If you go to this page https://investor.vanguard.com/client-benefits and click on See what you'll get with Flagship Services®, you will go to a description of their Flagship account level. If you go down the page a bit, and click on See what you'll get with Flagship Select Services®, you will go to their new Wealth Management page, which you referenced above. I think that page is their new, re-branded, Flagship Select page. I agree it does talk about PAS, but I think they are just inviting you to consider PAS. As I noted in my other post, their Flagship Select representatives are now called Relationship Managers.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by aidan5 »

Vanguard is so difficult to deal with, we never considered holding assets there. Most (not all) of our assets are held at Fidelity at this point due to superior customer service and responsive CFP (although we double check advice with an independent advisor). If we select a Vanguard fund, it's just easier to pay the Fidelity fee. Also, Fidelity cash sweep is a big advantage.

The Fidelity CFP considers the totality of our assets when dispensing advice, not just assets held at Fidelity. It's reasonable to assume there is some conflict of interest, hence the double check. But we've often received the same advice from the independent advisor.

EDIT - forgot to mention that there is no charge for the Fidelity CFP advisor and, as for independent advisors, we use hourly or flat-fee.

A Schwab story - a couple of years ago we (spouse and self) briefly contemplated holding additional assets at Schwab. We walked into a nearby local branch, sat down with a VP, and reviewed our assets. Opened a checking account for starters, to transfer a significant amount of cash. Got contradictory info from Schwab about sweep account. At any rate, Schwab did manage the transfer of a large stock holding with varying cost basis - sort of. The cost basis for the ESPP tranches - which carry some ordinary income at sale - never transferred properly, even though we had received assurances. (Anticipating this problem, I kept good records.)

The worst part of the Schwab experience - the checking account bucket was open, or so I thought. Fortunately, I was too busy on assignment for ten days to initiate a transfer of money into the account. Suddenly started receiving threatening letters from Schwab (paraphrasing): your account is frozen. You are not allowed to write checks, make transfers etc etc. But did not say why. I called Schwab customer service and was transferred to security. They said we (spouse and self) had to prove our identity. Wait what? We've held some Schwab accounts for 20 years. AND when we sat down with the VP we presented all of our i.d., including passports. But no, we had to return to the office in person and prove ourselves all over again. Spouse was out of town on business etc.

The VP kept calling/emailing, leaving brightly upbeat messages, as in "let's complete those transactions!" - until l finally emailed back and said, "hey are you actually looking at our checking account right now!?" Unbelievable. The money went to Fidelity instead.
Last edited by aidan5 on Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by Lastrun »

cowdogman wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:00 am .......

One of the problems I have with PAS and Vanguard in general is that it hides the ball on what it offers for free (pretty much nothing now) and is misleading about the scope of PAS--that is, making it sound like a comprehensive financial advisor when it's really just a robo-investment-advisor with a human contact point.
I think this is where we are. I don't see much of a difference with Schwab's SIP with CFP program, Fidelity Go, or PAS. They are all just that, a robo with a human contact point.

The question is whether it is fair to expect "white glove service" with 30 or 40 bps, with SS planning, estate planning, insurance planning, Roth planning, RMD planning . . . . . .
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by cowdogman »

Lastrun wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:38 pm
cowdogman wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:00 am .......

One of the problems I have with PAS and Vanguard in general is that it hides the ball on what it offers for free (pretty much nothing now) and is misleading about the scope of PAS--that is, making it sound like a comprehensive financial advisor when it's really just a robo-investment-advisor with a human contact point.
I think this is where we are. I don't see much of a difference with Schwab's SIP with CFP program, Fidelity Go, or PAS. They are all just that, a robo with a human contact point.

The question is whether it is fair to expect "white glove service" with 30 or 40 bps, with SS planning, estate planning, insurance planning, Roth planning, RMD planning . . . . . .
That's a very fair question, but the flip side of that question is why would anybody pay 30 bps for robo-advice? And why should the robo-advice fee be calculated as a percentage of assets? I highly doubt the time spent on a $2M account varies from a $5M account. And I doubt there is any material increase in risk to Vanguard with a $2M account vs. a $5M account.

Why should I agree to pay $10,000 (assuming 20 bps at $5,000,000) a year for canned advice that I have heard for the last 30+ years as a Vanguard customer? Maybe I could see paying a fixed amount for a portfolio review (e.g., $500), but even that would rankle.

It's just a money grab by Vanguard and a betrayal of Vanguard's former customer-centric ethos.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by Northern Flicker »

bhjjk19 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:25 pm Yes, your post helps. I was considering telling my wife to go with VPAS if something unexpected happened to me. Now VPAS is totally off the table. I will likely suggest an all-in-one fund, Life Strategy or move everything to Schwab. It seems Vanguard is doing everything to push their loyal long time clients away. I'm sick that I keep seeing these terrible customer service issues.
Which services or products would be preferred after I die are not necessarily the same as today. Things change in the world. It is unpredictable.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by cowdogman »

fourwheelcycle wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:20 pm
cowdogman wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:00 am
You may be right, but I don't think so. See this page and note the various references to PAS: https://investor.vanguard.com/wealth-management
You have to search carefully at Vanguard's web site to find clear descriptions of their current account levels. If you go to this page https://investor.vanguard.com/client-benefits and click on See what you'll get with Flagship Services®, you will go to a description of their Flagship account level. If you go down the page a bit, and click on See what you'll get with Flagship Select Services®, you will go to their new Wealth Management page, which you referenced above. I think that page is their new, re-branded, Flagship Select page. I agree it does talk about PAS, but I think they are just inviting you to consider PAS. As I noted in my other post, their Flagship Select representatives are now called Relationship Managers.
Yes, I looked at that page. The main section says:
Investors with $1 million to $5 million*

You're a Flagship client at Vanguard, which means you get personalized services reserved for our high-net-worth investors.

Helping you look at your wealth holistically is important to us. As a Flagship client, you'll have exclusive resources available to you, including Vanguard professionals who can help you meet your investment and wealth management needs.

Offered through Vanguard Personal Advisor Services® for a low fee, advisors are also available to help you navigate the complexities of wealth management in areas like trust services, tax strategies, financial advice, and philanthropy.

When you call, you'll speak with an experienced representative who will act as your guide to all the services we offer our high-net-worth clients. Whenever you're facing a complex situation or change in circumstances, a representative will coordinate personalized, expert help that's tailored to your needs.

As your needs grow, your support will too. Once you've accumulated $5 million or more in Vanguard assets, you'll become a Flagship Select client, which provides the wealth management services you need.
To me the above says virtually nothing, and I'm left with the question "what are the benefits of Flagship if I do NOT sign up for PAS?" I do acknowledge that the Flagship phone reps are generally very good.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by yatesd »

Lastrun wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:38 pm
cowdogman wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:00 am .......

One of the problems I have with PAS and Vanguard in general is that it hides the ball on what it offers for free (pretty much nothing now) and is misleading about the scope of PAS--that is, making it sound like a comprehensive financial advisor when it's really just a robo-investment-advisor with a human contact point.
I think this is where we are. I don't see much of a difference with Schwab's SIP with CFP program, Fidelity Go, or PAS. They are all just that, a robo with a human contact point.

The question is whether it is fair to expect "white glove service" with 30 or 40 bps, with SS planning, estate planning, insurance planning, Roth planning, RMD planning . . . . . .
I just switched from Vanguard to Schwab due to poor customer service and hold times at Vanguard. A transfer bonus helped convince me it was worth it.

I have an appointment setup with Schwab for their Intelligent Premium Portfolio, and very tempted to go this route. Yes, a portion will be kept in cash as part of fixed assets, but the annual cost is a flat $360 a year. Much lower % than Vanguard on larger accounts. Auto rebalancing, access to CFP, and low costs with “bumpers” that prevent an advisor contributing in a negative way.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by Lastrun »

cowdogman wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:38 pm Why should I agree to pay $10,000 (assuming 20 bps at $5,000,000) a year for canned advice that I have heard for the last 30+ years as a Vanguard customer? Maybe I could see paying a fixed amount for a portfolio review (e.g., $500), but even that would rankle.

It's just a money grab by Vanguard and a betrayal of Vanguard's former customer-centric ethos.
Total agreement here. I don't see much value in the robo's versus a simple balanced fund or M-1 type set up. And the VG percentage drop off on PAS from 30bps does not start until $5,000,000, which is a fair amount of AUM. I do think it is a crime that VG now wants 30bps for what was Flagship. It is also disappointing to see the full court press at VG for PAS, and the constant barrage of "you are an owner" in ads on CNBC, when resources are needed in customer service training and the online experience.
yatesd wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:45 pm ...........Yes, a portion will be kept in cash as part of fixed assets, but the annual cost is a flat $360 a year. Much lower % than Vanguard on larger accounts. Auto rebalancing, access to CFP, and low costs with “bumpers” that prevent an advisor contributing in a negative way.
To my point upthread. I just don't know how much value you can get from the CFP for $30 a month. Unless the value to you is just that, otherwise someone is losing in this trade........

I have a DW who is not interested in investing, etc.. At this point I am considering PAS or Schwab for the long haul, but may settle on just a simple portfolio and a very good CPA that works with individuals that can help out with the tax and other financial planning issues on a fee basis.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by fourwheelcycle »

cowdogman wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:16 pm
To me the above says virtually nothing, and I'm left with the question "what are the benefits of Flagship if I do NOT sign up for PAS?" I do acknowledge that the Flagship phone reps are generally very good.
I think the question that started our exchange was "Is Vanguard's Wealth Management page part of their fee-based PAS program?" I suggested it is a re-branding of their no-fee Flagship Select service tier, and you said you didn't think it was.

I still think the page is a re-branding of their Flagship Select tier. However, I am happy to answer your question about Vanguard's Flagship tier. Based on my experience as a Vanguard client since the early 1980s, the Flagship tier used to provide free Turbo-Tax Deluxe each year, but that benefit has ended. It also used to provide a free personal financial plan, and free CFP reviews of your Vanguard portfolio. I believe those benefits have also ended. The Flagship tier also used to provide phone access and secure messaging access to a dedicated personal representative who served an account list of about 600 clients, but that benefit has ended for all or most Flagship clients. Now, other than no account service fees and free online stock and ETF trades, I think the only benefit of the Flagship tier is phone access to a panel of account representatives who provide "generally very good" advice, guidance, and referrals on the use of Vanguard's account services.

Whether it is still called Flagship Select, or possibly Wealth Management, I believe the main benefit of Vanguard's next tier of no-fee account service is phone access, scheduled by-appointment phone meetings, and secure messaging access, to a dedicated Relationship Manager (RM), who probably has an account list of around 250 clients. The RMs are very well trained in providing advice and guidance on the use of Vanguard's account services, and concierge referrals to Vanguard's broad range of service specialists, including IRAs, Roth conversions, external fund transfers, and trust account services. Of course, RMs will also provide referrals for clients who are interested in Vanguard's fee-based PAS program and other fee-based support services.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by cowdogman »

fourwheelcycle wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:34 pm
cowdogman wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:16 pm
To me the above says virtually nothing, and I'm left with the question "what are the benefits of Flagship if I do NOT sign up for PAS?" I do acknowledge that the Flagship phone reps are generally very good.
I think the question that started our exchange was "Is Vanguard's Wealth Management page part of their fee-based PAS program?" I suggested it is a re-branding of their no-fee Flagship Select service tier, and you said you didn't think it was.

I still think the page is a re-branding of their Flagship Select tier. However, I am happy to answer your question about Vanguard's Flagship tier. Based on my experience as a Vanguard client since the early 1980s, the Flagship tier used to provide free Turbo-Tax Deluxe each year, but that benefit has ended. It also used to provide a free personal financial plan, and free CFP reviews of your Vanguard portfolio. I believe those benefits have also ended. The Flagship tier also used to provide phone access to a dedicated personal representative who served an account list of about 600 clients, but that benefit has ended for all or most Flagship clients. Now, other than no account service fees and free online stock and ETF trades, I think the only benefit of the Flagship tier is phone access to a panel of account representatives who provide "generally very good" advice, guidance, and referrals on the use of Vanguard's account services.

Whether it is still called Flagship Select, or possibly Wealth Management, I believe the main benefit of Vanguard's next tier of no-fee account service is phone access, scheduled by-appointment phone meetings, and secure messaging access, to a dedicated Relationship Manager (RM), who probably has an account list of around 250 clients. The RMs are very well trained in providing advice and guidance on the use of Vanguard's account services, and concierge referrals to Vanguard's broad range of service specialists, including IRAs, Roth conversions, external fund transfers, and trust account services. Of course, RMs will also provide referrals for clients who are interested in Vanguard's fee-based PAS program and other fee-based support services.
Sorry if I gave the impression I was disagreeing with you. I wasn't at all.

I agree with your list of the lost Flagship benefits. The only one I cared about was the portfolio review and I think I used that only 4-5 times over 30+ years.

My Flagship rep has been replaced by a "Relationship Manager," but I rarely contact Vanguard, and depending on my rep at the time I often prefer to just get a random Flagship phone rep.

As to the RM's "advice and guidance," I suspect that if I called Vanguard and asked how to do something specific (e.g., how to complete a Roth conversion), I would get a good answer, but anything beyond that (e.g., should I do a Roth conversion) would be out of bounds. I agree that the Flagship phone reps are a benefit but "answering the phone quickly and giving a correct factual answer" is a pretty low bar.

I have thought a lot about moving all to Fidelity. I already have a brokerage account, CMA, HSAs and credit cards there. But I have so much capital gain and literally decades of basis records at Vanguard that I am concerned about a screw up on the transfer with disastrous tax consequences. Otherwise I would move to Fidelity in a heartbeat.
fourwheelcycle
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by fourwheelcycle »

cowdogman wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:17 pm I agree with your list of the lost Flagship benefits. The only one I cared about was the portfolio review and I think I used that only 4-5 times over 30+ years.
I think we are pretty close in our take on Vanguard.

I also used the portfolio review a few times, but now I have simplified to a mostly two fund portfolio of VTSAX and VBILX. Over the years, my wife and I have had employer-based funds at TIAA and Fidelity. We used to feel trapped by their higher ERs than our taxable savings at Vanguard, but now they offer low ER funds that are competitive with Vanguard. Nonetheless, we rolled our employer-based savings over to IRAs at Vanguard, when possible, as we retired. We have always had very good service at Vanguard, and we have learned how to use their web site to accomplish most things what we want to do, including Roth conversions, funding grandchildren's Vanguard/Nevada 529 accounts, and funding a DAF at Vanguard Charitable.
miket29
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by miket29 »

cowdogman wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:00 am ne of the problems I have with PAS and Vanguard in general is that it hides the ball on what it offers for free (pretty much nothing now) and is misleading about the scope of PAS--that is, making it sound like a comprehensive financial advisor when it's really just a robo-investment-advisor with a human contact point.
The cutbacks in services without PAS have been a disappointment. I built my regular-account portfolio with Vanguard and did 401K rollovers to Vanguard in the expectation that as I neared and entered retirement I'd be able to chat with a CFP occasionally. That benefit is gone now that I'd like to have it.
fourwheelcycle
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by fourwheelcycle »

miket29 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:39 pm I built my regular-account portfolio with Vanguard and did 401K rollovers to Vanguard in the expectation that as I neared and entered retirement I'd be able to chat with a CFP occasionally. That benefit is gone now that I'd like to have it.
I understand your disappointment. I used Vanguard's free CFP reviews when I was learning the principles of portfolio selection during my thirties and I found them very helpful. I did not discover this forum until I had been retired for a few years, but I have found it to be at least as helpful, or more helpful, than Vanguard's CFP reviews. I learned about considerations on when to take SS, whether or not to do Roth conversions, how to calculate and project RMDs, the pros and cons of 529s for grandchildren, and when to consider trusts as part of estate planning - all from this forum.

Separate from this forum, by reading the "real" Bogle, I learned the simplest portfolio of all, only two funds in my case, is the easiest to manage and provides returns that are very similar to the most complicated multi-fund portfolios.

Bottom line, you can follow this forum, and post specific questions you might want to ask a Vanguard CFP. I bet you will get equal or better answers than you would get from a CFP.
bltn
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by bltn »

fourwheelcycle wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:10 am
miket29 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:39 pm I built my regular-account portfolio with Vanguard and did 401K rollovers to Vanguard in the expectation that as I neared and entered retirement I'd be able to chat with a CFP occasionally. That benefit is gone now that I'd like to have it.
I understand your disappointment. I used Vanguard's free CFP reviews when I was learning the principles of portfolio selection during my thirties and I found them very helpful. I did not discover this forum until I had been retired for a few years, but I have found it to be at least as helpful, or more helpful, than Vanguard's CFP reviews. I learned about considerations on when to take SS, whether or not to do Roth conversions, how to calculate and project RMDs, the pros and cons of 529s for grandchildren, and when to consider trusts as part of estate planning - all from this forum.

Separate from this forum, by reading the "real" Bogle, I learned the simplest portfolio of all, only two funds in my case, is the easiest to manage and provides returns that are very similar to the most complicated multi-fund portfolios.

Bottom line, you can follow this forum, and post specific questions you might want to ask a Vanguard CFP. I bet you will get equal or better answers than you would get from a CFP.
I agree.

I got two full reviews of my portfolio and an abbreviated review before the change to the current policy ay Vanguard. Those reviews did not make complicated recommendations, but simply ones based on indexing. Cookie cutter by Vanguard standards.

This past year my advisor set up a phone meeting with a Vanguard CFP who introduced himself as a vice president overseeing some department. When I asked about recommendations regarding my portfolio, I learned about the current policy to offer no individual advice until one engages the PAS service.

After participating in this forum for the last few years, I feel as though one will be well educated by this forum to manage one s own portfolio. For those not interested in self management, the PAS may be a good option. Cookie cutter indexing is probably the closest one can get to achieving guaranteed success with one s investing. If one has the personal ability or advisor s control to stay the course.
Last edited by bltn on Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
dbr
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by dbr »

bltn wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:23 am

After participating in this forum for the last few years, I feel as though one will be well educated by this forum to manage one s own portfolio. For those not interested in self management, the PAS may be a good option.
I agree the dilemma here is what is a good answer for people who can't or don't want to engage with the problem, read a minimum amount of helpful resources and manage their own finances.

This is a perfectly reasonable question to ask. I think VPAS probably offers a helpful piece of the solution for those people but is hardly sufficient by itself. I'm not sure there is a clear-cut sufficient answer considering how hazardous it is for not knowledgeable investors to find good guidance.
bltn
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by bltn »

dbr wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:30 am
bltn wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:23 am

After participating in this forum for the last few years, I feel as though one will be well educated by this forum to manage one s own portfolio. For those not interested in self management, the PAS may be a good option.
I agree the dilemma here is what is a good answer for people who can't or don't want to engage with the problem, read a minimum amount of helpful resources and manage their own finances.

This is a perfectly reasonable question to ask. I think VPAS probably offers a helpful piece of the solution for those people but is hardly sufficient by itself. I'm not sure there is a clear-cut sufficient answer considering how hazardous it is for not knowledgeable investors to find good guidance.
I edited my above post before I read this.

I think the best answer for investment success is for an investor to gain education in the Bogle philosophy for investing. The second best might be to turn investing decisions over the PAS advisors. Or at least follow most of their recommendations. One impression I ve gotten dealing with Vanguard and other brokerages mentioned often in this forum. At Vanguard, there seems to be no hidden agenda regarding making money off of the investor clients. I don t believe that is the case at the other houses, where I still maintain accounts.

Were it not for Vanguard , I doubt indexing would even be available at other places. And certainly not the low fees that have become widespread in the wake of Vanguard s growth.

Should I predecease my wife, I ve instructed her, and my children , and her co trustee, to transfer everything into our Vanguard accounts, for the sake of simplicity. I only keep things divided now in case an unforeseen future event would make keeping accounts at other institutions become beneficial. Diversity. !?!
Northern Flicker
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by Northern Flicker »

dbr wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:30 am
bltn wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:23 am

After participating in this forum for the last few years, I feel as though one will be well educated by this forum to manage one s own portfolio. For those not interested in self management, the PAS may be a good option.
I agree the dilemma here is what is a good answer for people who can't or don't want to engage with the problem, read a minimum amount of helpful resources and manage their own finances.

This is a perfectly reasonable question to ask. I think VPAS probably offers a helpful piece of the solution for those people but is hardly sufficient by itself. I'm not sure there is a clear-cut sufficient answer considering how hazardous it is for not knowledgeable investors to find good guidance.
A CPA with PFS certification (similar to CFP) who works on a fee-for-service basis is perhaps a good solution for many individuals. Lots of investment planning is entangled with tax planning, and such a provider can address both as well as prepare tax returns.
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