What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

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Small Law Survivor
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What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by Small Law Survivor »

I've told my wife and daughter that if I kick the bucket they should sign up for Vanguard's personal advisory service (PAS). However, I can't get rid of a nagging doubt about this. I'm wondering what it's really like to work with these people? There are a lot of them, around 500 (https://vanguard.com/pdf/r130.pdf). With that many advisors Vanguard can't let them have much discretion, can it? It must be cookie cutter -the four "Totals" - for everyone, is that right? What if you don't like your advisor can you switch? How skilled are these people?

If you have $5MM invested with Vanguard, you're paying close to $15,000 a year for this service. At $500/hour (I know that's high), that's 30 hours of attention a year. Does Vanguard spend anything close to that with a client (or on a client's affairs) with that much money invested?

Personal experiences appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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cowdogman
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by cowdogman »

Same here about kicking the bucket. And I'm very interested in the replies to this thread.

I'm a Flagship Select customer at Vanguard, but don't really use the Flagship services that much--last re-balancing review was in 2015. I contact my rep maybe 5 times a year with questions/requests and I don't trade. In other words, probably Vanguard's favorite type of customer (other than not paying for PAS).

Over the last couple years it seems that my questions/requests just don't get addressed. I had a question about 401(k) accounts and contributions, and the response was generally "we can't provide tax advice, we just provide the account" and the answers I did get turned out to be exactly wrong. I asked about trying to get a summary of IRA contributions to Vanguard since 1995 (to reinforce my own records on after-tax contributions) and was told Vanguard doesn't do that. There have been a couple other similar incidents.

And at each of these incidents I have thought to myself:

1. Would Vanguard be more helpful if I were a PAS customer?

2. And if not, what exactly is provided to a PAS customer beyond re-balancing advice, which, last time I checked, is free to me now?

For example, is the following provided:

1. Draw-down advice in terms of retirement vs. non-retirement accounts, especially taking into account unrealized capital gains in the taxable accounts? Or is that "tax advice"?

2. Social Security claiming strategies?

3. Reasonable annual draw-down amounts.

4. Roth conversion strategies.

And which of the above is provided free if done on an ad hoc basis?

BTW my Vanguard rep seems to me to be first class and I have had the same rep for a least a few years now. So, no complaints there at all. It's more of an issue about what Vanguard does and doesn't do for its customers.
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Taylor Larimore
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by Taylor Larimore »

Small Law Survivor:

My partner is a PAS investor. Several years ago, she had a problem with PAS. Vanguard flew her PAS representative to Miami to fix the problem.

Taylor
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by daleddm »

I did the interview of sorts (spoke several times) with potential advisor ... and they were assigned, no flex there. Person assigned was too young I felt, and I asked about a change and was told no - but I didn't push very hard.

I did bend the ear of the potential advisor about whether or not I could turn down their "advice" (i.e., sell the things our service tells you to sell and pay up on those gains). The answer was mostly hemming and hawing, but seemed ultimately to be yes, one could take some advice and demure on other.

Also, the specificity of withdrawal strategies was lacking, even evasive.

So I passed for now, but could see it as a fall back as the original poster mentioned.

*****

On a sorta related note, my admittedly odd measure in considering even occasional fee for service advising has been whether or not the person is maintaining a facebook page, as my analog upbringing suggests to me that anybody that takes time to do that isn't someone I'd consider mature enough to do the job (for me ... YMMV). So far, they all do.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by gwe67 »

Lots of young people on that list. I would have a hard time turning things over to someone born in the '90s. Then again, I would question the abilities of someone older than me, given that the person is apparently not successful enough to be retired.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by cowdogman »

daleddm wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:57 pm I did the interview of sorts (spoke several times) with potential advisor ... and they were assigned, no flex there. Person assigned was too young I felt, and I asked about a change and was told no - but I didn't push very hard.
My Flagship rep set me up on a call with a PAS advisor a couple years ago. The person I talked to was excellent--really sharp, good advice, fun to talk to.

But we talked only about allocation and re-balancing--and in fact she was the rep who did our re-balancing in 2015 (for free).
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by backpacker61 »

Small Law Survivor wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:52 am With that many advisors Vanguard can't let them have much discretion, can it?
That could be a good thing.
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FIREchief
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by FIREchief »

I only have second hand experience, which was fairly recent. VG pulled out a cookie cutter AA model, let's say for example:

60% equities (mix of US and foreign index funds)
40% bonds (mix of US and foreign funds)

They were receptive to omitting the foreign bonds and reducing the foreign equities, but I don't believe there was much analysis. In this case, I believe that the PAS rep was more coach than advisor whose main value was:

a) provide better guidance for .3% AUM than the guy down the street for 1.5% AUM
b) provide support for periodic rebalancing to manage risk
c) provide resistance to panic selling and other dumb market timing moves

Are those worth .3% AUM? I haven't seen reports here of a PAS advisor doing much else. All of this can be had for free here on the forum, along with outstanding education far beyond simple investing. 8-)

My advice to anybody who is considering a paid FA or DIY without any knowledge of Boglehead basics is to:

a) call VG and seriously consider letting them help you consolidate assets and set up a low cost portfolio
b) consider firing the PAS advisor after a year or so and just doing it yourself at VG
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.
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FIREchief
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by FIREchief »

backpacker61 wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:19 pm
Small Law Survivor wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:52 am With that many advisors Vanguard can't let them have much discretion, can it?
That could be a good thing.
Exactly. I think it is all just following a script and likely a cash cow for Vanguard. Certainly not the worst FA situation out there, but nothing that most Bogleheads would ever benefit from.
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by backpacker61 »

FIREchief wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:33 pm My advice to anybody who is considering a paid FA or DIY without any knowledge of Boglehead basics is to:

a) call VG and seriously consider letting them help you consolidate assets and set up a low cost portfolio
b) consider firing the PAS advisor after a year or so and just doing it yourself at VG
Seems a little like comparison shopping a product at a local retailer and then buying it through Amazon.

FWIW, I had plenty of help from Vanguard's concierge service consolidating assets over the years, without ever joining PAS. You don't need PAS to consolidate; they've had a concierge service for on-boarding assets long before PAS existed.

Once my assets moved to Vanguard, I just retained the securities that I had moved in kind, or sold them and invested in Vanguard funds of my choosing.
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dbr
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by dbr »

Small Law Survivor wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:52 am I've told my wife and daughter that if I kick the bucket they should sign up for Vanguard's personal advisory service (PAS).
I apologize for not having personal experience to recite, but I would suggest regarding the above that one consider signing up with advisors before one is gone rather than leaving it to afterward. Along with that the survivors should be party to the discussion. It might even be helpful for the wife to have assets of her own and be a customer in her own right.

Another caveat is that possibly the larger part of issues facing a survivor are probably not going to be in the province covered by managing one's investments. Getting set up with a good auto shop and a good plumber might be in that list, again before rather than after your demise.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by FIREchief »

backpacker61 wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:41 pm
FIREchief wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:33 pm My advice to anybody who is considering a paid FA or DIY without any knowledge of Boglehead basics is to:

a) call VG and seriously consider letting them help you consolidate assets and set up a low cost portfolio
b) consider firing the PAS advisor after a year or so and just doing it yourself at VG
Seems a little like comparison shopping a product at a local retailer and then buying it through Amazon.
Not really. Both my local retailer and Amazon are for-profit entities. Vanguard exists solely for the benefit of the customers and whatever leaves the customer with the most money is all that matters. (or so I've been told.... :P )
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by nisiprius »

I once made a semi-serious effort to get an answer to seemingly simple question: if you sign up for this service, is the person you talk to acting in a fiduciary status? I failed to get any answer. I don't really think it's appropriate to push on this since I have no plans to use the service myself, but I'd be curious to know the answer if someone else is able to winkle it out.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by fourwheelcycle »

This is not intended to be an ad, and I have no relationship with the company I am going to suggest. If a moderator wants to delete this post that is fine.

I am concerned about who might help my wife manage her finances if I die or become incompetent before her. My concerns go beyond simply managing our portfolio, to things like filing 709 forms and, when I die, filing Form 706 for DSUE. When my wife and I both die, I am concerned about who might help our executor and successor trustee son to manage and transition our revocable trust portfolio to himself and his sibling, file our final taxes, or submit a Form 706 if that is ever necessary. I do not believe Vanguard PAS would advise about these tax issues or assist in filling out the forms.

I did some online research and identified a company called Marotta Wealth Management or Marotta on Money, located in Charlottesville, VA. They provide a service very similar to Vanguard's PAS for a very similar price. They also provide a DIY version of their service where they will advise you what to do but they would not have access to your accounts or execute any transactions they suggest. Depending on the size of your account, I believe they will advise specifically on various tax forms and even assist with or complete forms like Form 709, or Form 706 for DSUE or final estate taxes, either as part of their service or on a fee-only basis. I think they will also advise on various estate planning issues. They will definitely review your finances and advise on Roth strategies.

I have talked to them and I came away believing they will provide a very experienced, professional, and personalized service. One concern is that they told me Vanguard will not allow us to give them transaction authorization for our accounts. Schwab will, so if my wife or our son ever want to sign up with MoN they would have to choose between moving our account to Schwab or only signing up for the DIY version of MoN's service.

I have advised my wife and our son to consider MoN if they ever consider a service like Vanguard's PAS.
Last edited by fourwheelcycle on Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by afan »

daleddm wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:57 pm

On a sorta related note, my admittedly odd measure in considering even occasional fee for service advising has been whether or not the person is maintaining a facebook page, as my analog upbringing suggests to me that anybody that takes time to do that isn't someone I'd consider mature enough to do the job (for me ... YMMV). So far, they all do.
Wow. You are going to block yourself from a huge and growing share of professionals of all types. Doctors, lawyers, etc. I know plenty senior people in both those groups who have Facebook pages. Perhaps you prefer those who are so computer illiterate that they cannot figure out how to do it????

I also don't think age matters at all. Old enough to know what they are doing is all I care about. With appropriate background, that could be 22. On the other hand, there are many people in their 50's and older who have no idea what they are doing.

My impression of PAS, NOT having used it, is that they will create a portfolio of around 6 funds where probably 3 would do. Low fee funds with no risk of the money ending up in the hands of some crook. Once set up, they will maintain it, which involves essentially no work.

Although they say they provide other financial advice, my experience with the old "ask a CFP" program left me with no confidence in the quality of advice they are prepared to offer.

When I have asked on here whether PAS has given good non-investment financial advice- shopping for insurance, selecting Medigap policies, refinancing a mortgage, applying for financial aid, etc- I have yet to see anyone say that they got useful advice.

If one truly cannot deal with creating a simple portfolio, then maybe PAS would be worth it until that is done. Beyond that, I cannot see paying for it. If one needed non-investment financial advice, they would still need to find a good hourly fee advisor. The latter would be much cheaper than 0.3% of all assets.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by FIREchief »

nisiprius wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:05 pm I once made a semi-serious effort to get an answer to seemingly simple question: if you sign up for this service, is the person you talk to acting in a fiduciary status? I failed to get any answer. I don't really think it's appropriate to push on this since I have no plans to use the service myself, but I'd be curious to know the answer if someone else is able to winkle it out.
That's interesting. I would also be interested in hearing VG's answer. That said, since all reports I've seen suggest that all PAS investments are in low ER VG funds, coupled with the fact that the AUM fee is "only" .3%, VG would probably be the last FA to fail the test as a fiduciary.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by afan »

fourwheelcycle wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:06 pm This is not intended to be an ad, and I have no relationship with the company I am going to suggest. If a moderator wants to delete this post that is fine.

I am concerned about who might help my wife manage her finances if I die or become incompetent before her. My concerns go beyond simply managing our portfolio, to things like filing 709 forms and, when I die, filing Form 706 for DSUE. When my wife and I both die, I am concerned about who might help our executor and successor trustee son to manage and transition our revocable trust portfolio to himself and his sibling, file our final taxes, and submit a Form 706 if that is ever necessary. I do not believe Vanguard PAS would advise about these tax issues or assist in filling out the forms.

One concern is that they told me Vanguard will not allow us to give them transaction authorization for our accounts. Schwab will, so if my wife or our son ever want to sign up with MoN they would have to choose between moving our account to Schwab or only signing up for the DIY version of MoN's service.

I have advised my wife and our son to consider MoN if they ever consider a service like Vanguard's PAS.
I would think advice and completing 706 and 709 forms would be routinely handled by an estates and trusts attorney. Perhaps by an enrolled agent. Or a CPA who regularly does these forms. I would not look to a general financial advising firm to do it.

Good for Vanguard for not giving transaction authorization. I would not give that to any company, including Vanguard. I have a pair of successor trustees who can handle that. If they want help, they can go to an hourly fee advisor, then implement themselves.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by michelef »

Unfortunately, my brother who died suddenly and unexpectedly at 56 late last year, did not have a good experience after I referred him to PAS. I referred him because he had very little investing knowledge, was prone to selling with market volatility and had been sold poor commission products in the past.

PAS managed his traditional IRA, Roth IRA and brokerage accounts for exactly one year. After his death, we were informed that none of his accounts had beneficiaries named. An old Fidelity 401k and IRA held at an insurance company both had beneficiaries listed. In his case, this resulted in most of his assets being inherited by an estranged relative who he never would have chosen to leave the money to.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by fourwheelcycle »

afan wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:14 pm
I would think advice and completing 706 and 709 forms would be routinely handled by an estates and trusts attorney. Perhaps by an enrolled agent. Or a CPA who regularly does these forms. I would not look to a general financial advising firm to do it.

Good for Vanguard for not giving transaction authorization. I would not give that to any company, including Vanguard. I have a pair of successor trustees who can handle that. If they want help, they can go to an hourly fee advisor, then implement themselves.
I do not think MoN would provide these services either unless they employed or contracted with competent attorneys or CPAs. It is interesting that Vanguard does not work with advisors like MoN but Schwab does. I would certainly not sign up for a service like Vanguard's PAS now, but it could be a possibility for my wife or our son in the future.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by dbr »

michelef wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:32 pm Unfortunately, my brother who died suddenly and unexpectedly at 56 late last year, did not have a good experience after I referred him to PAS. I referred him because he had very little investing knowledge, was prone to selling with market volatility and had been sold poor commission products in the past.

PAS managed his traditional IRA, Roth IRA and brokerage accounts for exactly one year. After his death, we were informed that none of his accounts had beneficiaries named. An old Fidelity 401k and IRA held at an insurance company both had beneficiaries listed. In his case, this resulted in most of his assets being inherited by an estranged relative who he never would have chosen to leave the money to.
That would mean that Vanguard PAS does not engage on the issue of estate advice. It might be we should add "unless asked." What would happen if the investor were to ask what he should do about beneficiaries. The right answer, of course, is consult your attorney.

I wonder if you have to have beneficiaries listed on account. I vaguely recall you can't have a 401k and not list beneficiaries, or if you don't your spouse is listed if you have one -- can that be? I don't think you have to do any of that for brokerage accounts.

I think confusing an investment management service at a broker with all the functions of estates and wills, taxes, financial planning, and cash management tasks is not possible and a big mistake to think it is going to happen, especially in the context of a go-to for a bereaved survivor.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by Scooter57 »

My parents in their old age (living far from us kids) used an expensive financial advisor. Their stock investing was nothing to brag about, but they visited my parents regularly, after they had become reclusive and hiding things from us kids. They alerted me to major issues, helped us find movers to get my parents out of their apartment they had to vacate in 30 days (after living there 65 years) and kept them in the market through the Financial crisis.

Without their help my aged parents would have been in deep trouble (not to mention on the hook for very high state estate taxes if they had kept the apartment and not been moved to where we kids lived).

So the personal touch really was worth the $$$. Taylor's friend was a long time ago. No way is Vanguard's PAS rep having lunch with 89 year old ladies or noticing that they are asking for a new check book every month, or relying on a dodgy accountant.

For older people with diminishing cognitive abilities a local, humane advisor would be a better bet if you can find one. My mom had been a brilliant investor into her 70s but chose these advisors after interviewing many when she sensed she was not as sharp as she used to be. Very wise to the end!
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by JudgeLess »

The OP was concerned about investment management advice for his wife and daughter if he is no longer around. I had similar concerns for my wife and children when I am no longer able to manage our investments. We set up a revocable trust and designated Vanguard National Trust Company as a co-trustee with my wife, and then co-trustee for our two children after we both pass. With VNTC you receive the investment advice; I assume from their PAS group, but you also receive trust administration and estate advice, and tax preparation services for the trust. The fees are very competitive with similar trust services. A major reason I choose this approach is that I am confident the investment assets would be managed consistent with Vanguard's simple, low cost approach.
So, OP, I don't know if you are considering a trust, but it may be an option for you.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by FIREchief »

dbr wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:37 pm I wonder if you have to have beneficiaries listed on account.
You don't.
I vaguely recall you can't have a 401k and not list beneficiaries, or if you don't your spouse is listed if you have one -- can that be?


I believe that federal law requires that a surviving spouse inherit a 401k unless they have previously granted their permission in writing for some other person or entity to be named.
I think confusing an investment management service at a broker with all the functions of estates and wills, taxes, financial planning, and cash management tasks is not possible and a big mistake to think it is going to happen, especially in the context of a go-to for a bereaved survivor.
Absolutely. That said, I would think that a good PAS advisor might at least mention beneficiary designations to a client from time to time. Perhaps their lawyers have told them not to?
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by dbr »

FIREchief wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:10 pm
dbr wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:37 pm I wonder if you have to have beneficiaries listed on account.
You don't.
I vaguely recall you can't have a 401k and not list beneficiaries, or if you don't your spouse is listed if you have one -- can that be?


I believe that federal law requires that a surviving spouse inherit a 401k unless they have previously granted their permission in writing for some other person or entity to be named.
I think confusing an investment management service at a broker with all the functions of estates and wills, taxes, financial planning, and cash management tasks is not possible and a big mistake to think it is going to happen, especially in the context of a go-to for a bereaved survivor.
Absolutely. That said, I would think that a good PAS advisor might at least mention beneficiary designations to a client from time to time. Perhaps their lawyers have told them not to?
Thanks. I agree it is likely Vanguard lawyers have a list of things to not talk about. It is easy to understand why.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by cowdogman »

dbr wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:37 pm I think confusing an investment management service at a broker with all the functions of estates and wills, taxes, financial planning, and cash management tasks is not possible and a big mistake to think it is going to happen, especially in the context of a go-to for a bereaved survivor.
Well, if PAS doesn't do those things, at least to some extent, it is really not a financial advisor, it's an investment advisor. The Flagship Select page https://investor.vanguard.com/wealth-management/) describes [edit] PAS as follows:
investment advice, wealth and estate planning, trust services, family legacy planning, tax strategies, and philanthropy
And I found this in a Vanguard document linked at the bottom of the page:
Advisory fee
The annual advisory service fee paid to VAI for clients enrolled in the ongoing advised service will be as follows:

0.30% on Portfolios below $5 million
0.20% on Portfolios from $5 million to below $10 million
0.10% on Portfolios from $10 million to below $25 million
0.05% on Portfolios of $25 million and above

In most cases, Portfolios of $5 million and above will be serviced by Vanguard National Trust Company (NVNTC"), an affiliate of VAi that offers its own version of Vanguard Personal Advisor Services to its client base. Read the section below tit led "Other financial industry activities and affiliations" for additional information about VNTC.
Note "its own version of Vanguard Personal Advisor Services."

Now I'm wondering if the PAS services are broader at higher net worth levels, which would make sense. Another question for Vanguard.
Last edited by cowdogman on Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by afan »

As best I can tell, those services listed under Flagship Select are only available if you sign up for PAS. I inquired about the estate planning and all I got was a pitch for Vanguard as trustee or PAS. Select alone does not seem to offer anything.

0.3% (or 0.55 for trustee) of $5M is a lot more than one would pay an expert estates and trusts attorney, so there would be no percentage in going with PAS. I don't know what estate planning services PAS or trustee provide.

If you want a trustee to do the administrative work, not manage investments, then there are companies that will do that for well under the PAS rate. Apparently some will do it for flat fees well under $10,000. If you are happy managing your own investments, or have an individual successor trustee who can check for rebalancing one a year this may be the right way to go. Managing the administrative stuff is actual work, while maintaining the portfolio takes almost no time.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by cowdogman »

afan wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:22 pm As best I can tell, those services listed under Flagship Select are only available if you sign up for PAS. I inquired about the estate planning and all I got was a pitch for Vanguard as trustee or PAS. Select alone does not seem to offer anything.

0.3% (or 0.55 for trustee) of $5M is a lot more than one would pay an expert estates and trusts attorney, so there would be no percentage in going with PAS. I don't know what estate planning services PAS or trustee provide.

If you want a trustee to do the administrative work, not manage investments, then there are companies that will do that for well under the PAS rate. Apparently some will do it for flat fees well under $10,000. If you are happy managing your own investments, or have an individual successor trustee who can check for rebalancing one a year this may be the right way to go. Managing the administrative stuff is actual work, while maintaining the portfolio takes almost no time.
I didn't mean to suggest that Flagship Select alone covered those services (and I have edited my post above to make that clear), just that PAS services seem to be broader at higher asset levels. I don't think there is anything wrong with that (if true), but it would be nice if it were clearer in the Vanguard marketing materials.

What I find very interesting from this thread is that Bogleheads (including me) don't seem to know what exactly PAS (a Vanguard product) offers, which indicates to me a major failure by the marketing folks at Vanguard.

Just to be proactive here, what I would like PAS to offer to my wife if I'm gone:

1. Investment strategy--a few index funds allocated properly is fine with me.

2. Annual advice as to which assets (after-tax and/or retirement) to liquidate to fund annual expenses, including taking into account minimizing cap gains tax. I would include in this item RMD advice.

3. One time advice on a social security strategy.

4. Advice on a reasonable annual draw-down amount--revisited from time to time (maybe annually).

5. Advice on gifting to children.

6. Advice on other similar issues that come up from time to time (e.g., somebody to talk to about issues arising in connection with selling a residence).

We have an estate attorney/firm and so don't really need any advice there, though I can imagine at some point our attorney and Vanguard will need to coordinate--and that should be covered by PAS.

That would be worth .20% to .30% IMO.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by GmanJeff »

You may find it helpful to search for and review the many prior threads on this topic.

Vanguard itself describes the service thus: https://personal.vanguard.com/pdf/vpabroc.pdf
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nisiprius wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:05 pm I once made a semi-serious effort to get an answer to seemingly simple question: if you sign up for this service, is the person you talk to acting in a fiduciary status? I failed to get any answer.
My understanding is any advisor with the CFP designation are required to act in fiduciary capacity. Most, though not all, the Vanguard PAS advisors appear to have the CFP certification.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

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daleddm wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:57 pm Also, the specificity of withdrawal strategies was lacking, even evasive.
I had a meeting with PAS specifically for the tax savvy withdrawal strategy. I was told PAS has a cost basis category called "Tax Efficient" in addition to what we have Spec ID, LIFO, FIFO and AVG Cost. I was told Taxable, Tax Deferred and Roth was the sequence for the withdrawal.

I told PAS my Fidelity brokerage account has the Tax Efficient category. It makes wonder if I should transfer my assets to Fidelity when I retire.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

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Having come from the investment management business and recognizing that, at my age, I needed to find highly competent advisor assistance for the next/final 3 innings (for the benefit of both myself and my heirs), I began a multi year search for an advisor (note: protracted process while I reconciled forgoing my do-it-yourself history).

One stop in my search was PAS. We were discussing a +$10 million portfolio. The Vanguard advisors’ solution was a three fund portfolio.

That may be just fine for many. It’s was well, well below my expectations.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

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Does Vanguard PAS just give advice or do they do the trade execution and rebalancing for you?
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

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GmanJeff wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:32 pm You may find it helpful to search for and review the many prior threads on this topic.

Vanguard itself describes the service thus: https://personal.vanguard.com/pdf/vpabroc.pdf
Thanks. I've been looking at this issue for a couple years now and I won't pretend to have read all the threads but I have read at least several. The disconnect for me is between the Vanguard marketing materials and the Vanguard legal materials (like the one you link above).

Here's from the Flagship Select page I cited above:
We'll give you the tools and support to help you succeed. Offered through Vanguard Personal Advisor Services® for a low fee, we can also help you navigate the complexities of wealth management by providing expertise in areas like investment advice, wealth and estate planning, trust services, family legacy planning, tax strategies, and philanthropy. We'll also work with your family office and other third parties to make doing business as easy as possible.

All of these services, combined with personal attention and the opportunity to expand your relationship team to include a dedicated financial advisor from Vanguard Personal Advisor Services, will help empower your family and simplify the complexities that come with significant wealth.
But when I look at the document you link (and which I also cited above) the only services discussed are a pretty narrow set of investment advisory issues. For example, go to the document you link and search the word "estate." No matches. In fact search "legacy," "wealth," "philanthropy" and the other keywords from the quotation above and you won't find any discussion of those topics.

I've talked a couple times to my Flagship rep about PAS and quizzed him about what it covered, and never really got a clear answer.

Maybe I missed a Boglehead thread, but the threads I have seen on PAS focus on whether the investment services are worth the fee, especially given that the standard PAS investment advice is limited to investing in Vanguard's core index funds. I think the answer to that question is a clear "no" except for somebody who has no investment experience.

Vanguard is marketing PAS as a "financial advisor," but what it appears to be is an investment robo advisor with a personal touch (that is, someone you can call).

The OP and I are both looking for a service that will provide financial advice and investment management if we're not around, but PAS does not appear to be it. I would be happy to be wrong about this.
Last edited by cowdogman on Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by abuss368 »

Taylor Larimore wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:46 pm Small Law Survivor:

My partner is a PAS investor. Several years ago, she had a problem with PAS. Vanguard flew her PAS representative to Miami to fix the problem.

Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom: "The best advisors can help you develop a long-range investment strategy and an intelligent plan for its implementation."
Wow! That is incredible Taylor.

Thank you for sharing.

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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

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Small Law Survivor wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:52 am I've told my wife and daughter that if I kick the bucket they should sign up for Vanguard's personal advisory service (PAS). However, I can't get rid of a nagging doubt about this. I'm wondering what it's really like to work with these people? There are a lot of them, around 500 (https://vanguard.com/pdf/r130.pdf). With that many advisors Vanguard can't let them have much discretion, can it? It must be cookie cutter -the four "Totals" - for everyone, is that right? What if you don't like your advisor can you switch? How skilled are these people?

If you have $5MM invested with Vanguard, you're paying close to $15,000 a year for this service. At $500/hour (I know that's high), that's 30 hours of attention a year. Does Vanguard spend anything close to that with a client (or on a client's affairs) with that much money invested?

Personal experiences appreciated. Thanks in advance.
I have had the same discussion with my spouse to contact Vanguard PAS as soon as possible should any need arise. I believe the fee is less than 0.30% once you hit $5 million. I would be very happy with my spouse paying $15,000 on $5 million if that provided peace of mind and avoided costly mistakes and risks.

I have family who signed up a year ago and could not be happier. They are so thankful for the simplicity, the meetings during the year, and availability should any questions arise.

I am thankful Vanguard started this service a few years ago.

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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by inittowinit »

I suggested PAS to my MIL and have kept an eye on how they manage her account. They seem to build a decent, fairly simple, low-cost portfolio and then pretty much everything else varies based on the individual advisor you end up with.

I had suggested a Roth conversion ladder for my MIL and the PAS advisor thought that was a neat idea when I brought it up, and did provide some basic assistance in formulating the ladder, but would clearly never have proposed it had I not brought it up and pushed for it (it was a no-brainer!).

While many have CFPs, these folks are not really providing "comprehensive financial planning" the way you would get it from a high quality boutique RIA firm (and yes, those DO exist, though whether they make up for their fees with alpha I can't say).

If you want someone who will take enough of an interest in your finances to come up with creative, impactful, EFFECTIVE strategies and tactics that are based on your individual needs and preferences, you probably need to pay more than 0.3% for that service. If you just want an initial asset allocation and rebalancing, there's software that can now do that for you. If I'm honest, PAS seems tailored to a market segment that's in steep decline...
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by abuss368 »

gwe67 wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:08 pm Lots of young people on that list. I would have a hard time turning things over to someone born in the '90s. Then again, I would question the abilities of someone older than me, given that the person is apparently not successful enough to be retired.
Or perhaps an older person wants to stay busy and still work!

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Post by abuss368 »

Thomas93 wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:05 pm Does Vanguard PAS just give advice or do they do the trade execution and rebalancing for you?
Yes, they process any trades and rebalance. You are hands off.

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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

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formerlybroke wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:49 pm One stop in my search was PAS. We were discussing a +$10 million portfolio. The Vanguard advisors’ solution was a three fund portfolio.

That may be just fine for many. It’s was well, well below my expectations.
What were you expecting? Was the three fund too cheap or too simple? :confused
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by Tattarrattat »

Based on multiple use reports, looks like PAS is easy money for Vanguard with little utility to the client. The investment recommendations are basically the same that you get in a Lifestrategy or Target Date fund. Just buy one of those funds for 0 .12 % annual and you can literally leave them alone the rest of your life. If you need specific additional advice outside of investing, best to use a flat or per-hour fee professional - attorney, CPA, CFP, whichever is relevant.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by Tattarrattat »

FIREchief wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:51 pm
formerlybroke wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:49 pm One stop in my search was PAS. We were discussing a +$10 million portfolio. The Vanguard advisors’ solution was a three fund portfolio.

That may be just fine for many. It’s was well, well below my expectations.
What were you expecting? Was the three fund too cheap or too simple? :confused
Three (or even two) fund portfolio is perfect for 10 million, or even a hundred million dollars. The common strategy for financial advisors is to produce a complex portfolio to intimidate the client into thinking it's too difficult to do it yourself. Those complex portfolios will not perform better than a two or three funder. There are reasons to not use PAS, but a simple portfolio is not one of them.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

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abuss368 wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:50 pm
Thomas93 wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:05 pm Does Vanguard PAS just give advice or do they do the trade execution and rebalancing for you?
Yes, they process any trades and rebalance. You are hands off.

Tony

Thanks Tony!
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by abuss368 »

Thomas93 wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:04 pm
abuss368 wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:50 pm
Thomas93 wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:05 pm Does Vanguard PAS just give advice or do they do the trade execution and rebalancing for you?
Yes, they process any trades and rebalance. You are hands off.

Tony

Thanks Tony!
Sure. You can always try them and then make a decision to stay the course with them or chart a different course and part ways.

Tony
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

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inittowinit wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:38 pm
While many have CFPs, these folks are not really providing "comprehensive financial planning" the way you would get it from a high quality boutique RIA firm...

If you want someone who will take enough of an interest in your finances to come up with creative, impactful, EFFECTIVE strategies and tactics that are based on your individual needs and preferences, you probably need to pay more than 0.3% for that service.
I don't know that one needs to pay as much. Nor do I agree that one would want a high quality RIA firm for financial planning. It seems the RIAs focus on investments and use the financial planning as an extra benefit thrown in for "free". A better solution, and far cheaper than even 0.3%, is to use an hourly fee planner for financial advice and a simple 3 fund portfolio for investment. There is no point in paying anyone anything to run a 3 fund portfolio but if occasional rebalancing is too intimidating then a balanced fund is the solution. The increased cost over an index fund is much less than 0.3%.

Agree that the need for a service like PAS- essentially maintaining a 3 fund portfolio- is rapidly going away.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

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afan wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:16 pm A better solution, and far cheaper than even 0.3%, is to use an hourly fee planner for financial advice and a simple 3 fund portfolio for investment. There is no point in paying anyone anything to run a 3 fund portfolio but if occasional rebalancing is too intimidating then a balanced fund is the solution. The increased cost over an index fund is much less than 0.3%.
Yep, that's where I'm coming out after this discussion. The trick of course if finding the right per hour planner.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

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michelef wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:32 pm Unfortunately, my brother who died suddenly and unexpectedly at 56 late last year, did not have a good experience after I referred him to PAS. I referred him because he had very little investing knowledge, was prone to selling with market volatility and had been sold poor commission products in the past.

PAS managed his traditional IRA, Roth IRA and brokerage accounts for exactly one year. After his death, we were informed that none of his accounts had beneficiaries named. An old Fidelity 401k and IRA held at an insurance company both had beneficiaries listed. In his case, this resulted in most of his assets being inherited by an estranged relative who he never would have chosen to leave the money to.
This is unfortunate and a crime to me - I would hope Vanguard at least would have brought this up when they spoke to your brother as well as sent multiple emails asking him to name beneficiaries on his account.

A few years back, we used PAS for about 9 months to and left after multiple conversations related to tax loss harvesting and their approach. We were disappointed that Vanguard's marketing sounds better and more sophisticated than what they will actually do - their responses on a few issues included no recommendation especially with anything related to tax advice. We also found, at that time, that they were fairly rigid in their approach and not willing to compromise although I offered a variety of ideas to reach a mutually agreeable solution.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by lostdog »

In our IPS my wife is instructed to contact Vanguard PAS if I start becoming mentally disabled or I die suddenly.

I'm setting up their four fund portfolio to make the transition easy. I'll add BNDX later.

My wife has no interest in managing the portfolio.
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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by abuss368 »

afan wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:16 pm
inittowinit wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:38 pm
While many have CFPs, these folks are not really providing "comprehensive financial planning" the way you would get it from a high quality boutique RIA firm...

If you want someone who will take enough of an interest in your finances to come up with creative, impactful, EFFECTIVE strategies and tactics that are based on your individual needs and preferences, you probably need to pay more than 0.3% for that service.
I don't know that one needs to pay as much. Nor do I agree that one would want a high quality RIA firm for financial planning. It seems the RIAs focus on investments and use the financial planning as an extra benefit thrown in for "free". A better solution, and far cheaper than even 0.3%, is to use an hourly fee planner for financial advice and a simple 3 fund portfolio for investment. There is no point in paying anyone anything to run a 3 fund portfolio but if occasional rebalancing is too intimidating then a balanced fund is the solution. The increased cost over an index fund is much less than 0.3%.

Agree that the need for a service like PAS- essentially maintaining a 3 fund portfolio- is rapidly going away.
Not so sure I would agree. 3 funds or not, there is a market need for advisors from folks who simply need assurance and financial counsel.

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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by abuss368 »

lostdog wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:14 pm In our IPS my wife is instructed to contact Vanguard PAS if I start becoming mentally disabled or I die suddenly.

I'm setting up their four fund portfolio to make the transition easy. I'll add BNDX later.

My wife has no interest in managing the portfolio.
I thought you were Total World? Moved to four total funds?

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Re: What's It Really Like to Work With Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service?

Post by tibbitts »

cowdogman wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:23 pm
afan wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:16 pm A better solution, and far cheaper than even 0.3%, is to use an hourly fee planner for financial advice and a simple 3 fund portfolio for investment. There is no point in paying anyone anything to run a 3 fund portfolio but if occasional rebalancing is too intimidating then a balanced fund is the solution. The increased cost over an index fund is much less than 0.3%.
Yep, that's where I'm coming out after this discussion. The trick of course if finding the right per hour planner.
Not only finding the right planner, but recognizing that with most planners/firms there will be a minefield of potential threats to overcome over many years as a client. Although I'm not sold on PAS, I believe you'll probably get about the same advice no matter if your rep moves on or is otherwise unavailable. That's probably not the case with many other investments firms. Smaller firms can be bought out by other firms, and management can significantly change directions. Maybe the latter point isn't a strength of Vanguard; I know Vanguard has changed its allocation models and there have been reports here of them not handling the migration very elegantly. But at least it hasn't completely gone off the fairly simple, mostly-low-cost rails.
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