Personal Finances and Minimalism
Personal Finances and Minimalism
The thread on minimalism was fascinating and a great read. I thought it would be interesting to hear the perspectives of financial minimalists or wannabe financial minimalists like myself.
I’ve struggled with trying to simplify everything while not wanting to have all the eggs in one basket. For example, I’d like to have all my cash at one bank, but don’t want the risk of a single point of failure. Same thing with brokerages and credit cards.
How do you incorporate minimalism in your financial life while also dealing with the risk?
I’ve struggled with trying to simplify everything while not wanting to have all the eggs in one basket. For example, I’d like to have all my cash at one bank, but don’t want the risk of a single point of failure. Same thing with brokerages and credit cards.
How do you incorporate minimalism in your financial life while also dealing with the risk?
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
By keeping a small amount of cash around, as FEMA would suggest you have as part of a disaster preparedness kit, I feel like I could manage through most scenarios where my bank funds might not be available, and don't really need backup bank accounts... although I do currently have 2, but only because one gave me a hefty sign up bonus and the other is paying me a high interest rate on balances.
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
I'm 100% single-fund. (I won't mention the fund because it's not particularly relevant.) There are many options to choose from in this genre -- total world funds, US equities, target-retirement funds, balanced funds -- take your pick. But I love the simplicity of having a consistent place to invest, irrespective of market conditions, without the need to rebalance or tinker. Virtually all of my investing is on autopilot, adjusted yearly. I am not a fan of ETFs because they're less amenable to autopilot investing (and withdrawing, though I'm not there yet) and they encourage me to make more choices than I need. Without paying a professional manager, I want to minimize my involvement as far as possible because -- let's be real -- any "strategy" I come up with to juice returns is probably the single biggest threat to my financial wellbeing.
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
I minimized my retirement accounts, rolling over 401K to tIRA. Went from 6 accounts to three.
Earlier, I tidied up my holdings, tilting to equities in Roth and bonds in tIRA.
All accounts are Boglehead 3 fund index funds (plus a CD ladder).
When I had a small business that ran charges each month, I did travel hacking, collecting credit cards like a fiend. Now retired, I'm gradually whitling down the credit cards to the best of the bunch.
Earlier, I tidied up my holdings, tilting to equities in Roth and bonds in tIRA.
All accounts are Boglehead 3 fund index funds (plus a CD ladder).
When I had a small business that ran charges each month, I did travel hacking, collecting credit cards like a fiend. Now retired, I'm gradually whitling down the credit cards to the best of the bunch.
The mightiest Oak is just a nut who stayed the course.
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
- 3 fund portfolio at one brokerage and 457 at work
- Interest bearing checking at local CU and savings for VENMO only
- Online CD ladder and MMF with one online bank
"Simplify, simplify, simplify! I say, let your affairs be as two or three, and not a hundred or a thousand…” - Thoreau
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
We moved toward minimalist about 20 years ago (went from 3000 SQFT house to 1200). Retired 3 years, had two institutions then one split and we ended up with 4. 2021 plan to get back to 2 for investing (one is TSP which is on auto). We have 2 banks only because we have rental property and keep that separate from all else. I haven't touched investing since retirement except to see it grow. 2021 I plan to clean it all up, update my death book then ignore it again a go back to traveling out of country.
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
How much cash do you have?
How often do banks fail in your part of the world?
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
If you want to keep only one bank, a cash management account at your existing brokerage (such as Fidelity or Schwab) can function as your backup (hold cash/money market funds, online bill pay, debit/ATM card, etc.)
Last edited by HomeStretch on Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
You cope by recognizing that risk of the type you fear is minimal. Not zero, but not enough to mitigate through greater complexity and inconvenience. Risk is a calculation which takes into account the value of an asset, the probability of an adverse event, and the impact of that event.
In the case you cite of a bank failure, how great a percentage of your net worth is represented by that particular asset, i.e., what is the value of that asset to you in the big scheme of things? How likely is a complete loss of your account at your specific bank? What would the consequences be to you if its value went to zero? If you could replace the losses eventually from your income stream, the consequences/impact would not be as great as if you had no other resources and no way to eventually replace what was lost.
Focus mitigation strategies and activity on more probable risks with greater potential impacts and even then ensure that mitigation efforts are proportional to the risk level involved.
In the case you cite of a bank failure, how great a percentage of your net worth is represented by that particular asset, i.e., what is the value of that asset to you in the big scheme of things? How likely is a complete loss of your account at your specific bank? What would the consequences be to you if its value went to zero? If you could replace the losses eventually from your income stream, the consequences/impact would not be as great as if you had no other resources and no way to eventually replace what was lost.
Focus mitigation strategies and activity on more probable risks with greater potential impacts and even then ensure that mitigation efforts are proportional to the risk level involved.
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
Does that happen often for you?
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
If the consequence of the risk is severe enough, the frequency of it's occurrence isn't a good way to judge it.JoeRetire wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:38 amDoes that happen often for you?
You couldn't pay me enough to play 'Russian Roulette', even if the gun had 100 empty chambers with 1 bullet.
I've been in places where credit and ATM networks were unavailable for more than a day, while not an FDIC bank when the 'Reserve Primary' money market fund failed it took years to unwind before the investors got most of their money back, after the events of Sep-11-2001 it was about a week before brokerages and exchanges were working again.
I'm not going to hoard coins in my basement because of that, but as I mentioned in an above post, it seems a fairly low cost mitigation to keep a small amount of cash around in an 'emergency kit'.
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
I'm not strictly a minimalist, but I've been on a lengthy effort to reduce what used to be a fairly scattered portfolio.
At one time, I had mutual fund accounts directly held with several providers (Neuberger Berman, Franklin Templeton, Third Avenue, Fidelity, Vanguard), a stock held in the form of paper certificates (in my safe deposit box) as well as DRIP shares that were held through the transfer agent, a 401K at one old employer and one at the current employer, ESPP/RSU stock shares at another provider, and an employer sponsored HSA at yet another provider.
I worked on pecking at it a bit off and on for years. I transferred the old 401K into the new employer's plan, ACAT'ed the various mutual fund accounts to Vanguard, ACAT'ed the stock DRIP shares from the transfer agent to my existing brokerage account, and mailed in the paper stock certificates. My employer changed to Fidelity HSA, which helped because I already had a brokerage account there. I ACAT to my brokerage account the ESPP/RSU shares immediately on purchase or vesting. So I'm pretty much down to Fidelity, Vanguard, and my local bank.
I just have one credit card, the Fidelity Rewards VISA Signature card (2% cash back to my brokerage account). I have two debit cards; one from my local bank and one for my Fidelity CMA.
While my situation could be simpler, I think two brokerage accounts plus one local bank is the right tradeoff for me between redundancy while minimizing complexity.
At one time, I had mutual fund accounts directly held with several providers (Neuberger Berman, Franklin Templeton, Third Avenue, Fidelity, Vanguard), a stock held in the form of paper certificates (in my safe deposit box) as well as DRIP shares that were held through the transfer agent, a 401K at one old employer and one at the current employer, ESPP/RSU stock shares at another provider, and an employer sponsored HSA at yet another provider.
I worked on pecking at it a bit off and on for years. I transferred the old 401K into the new employer's plan, ACAT'ed the various mutual fund accounts to Vanguard, ACAT'ed the stock DRIP shares from the transfer agent to my existing brokerage account, and mailed in the paper stock certificates. My employer changed to Fidelity HSA, which helped because I already had a brokerage account there. I ACAT to my brokerage account the ESPP/RSU shares immediately on purchase or vesting. So I'm pretty much down to Fidelity, Vanguard, and my local bank.
I just have one credit card, the Fidelity Rewards VISA Signature card (2% cash back to my brokerage account). I have two debit cards; one from my local bank and one for my Fidelity CMA.
While my situation could be simpler, I think two brokerage accounts plus one local bank is the right tradeoff for me between redundancy while minimizing complexity.
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
JoeRetire wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:38 amDocInColo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:33 amHasn’t happened yet but that doesn’t mean it won’t. Plenty of people on here have posted about weird things happening to accounts and not having access to funds. Question is, is it worth worrying about...
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
Cybersecurity breach is a certainty, and being bad enough that customers must be denied access for awhile is a possibility. I do have a small Roth at a separate brokerage that is there for this purpose. Just in Case money.Not necessarily banks failing but something happening where you lose access or all of your accounts get frozen for some reason
I don't carry extra cash or hold gold or coins.
The mightiest Oak is just a nut who stayed the course.
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
If you go down to the level of Russian Roulette, then you would have to cover an infinite variety of possibilities. Aliens take over the world, cyberattack destroys the country's infrastructure, worldwide pandemic prevents all in-person transactions...
I don't remember having any problems then. All of my money was perfectly safe. Maybe your experience was different.I've been in places where credit and ATM networks were unavailable for more than a day, while not an FDIC bank when the 'Reserve Primary' money market fund failed it took years to unwind before the investors got most of their money back, after the events of Sep-11-2001 it was about a week before brokerages and exchanges were working again.
I agree with keeping a small amount of cash around.I'm not going to hoard coins in my basement because of that, but as I mentioned in an above post, it seems a fairly low cost mitigation to keep a small amount of cash around in an 'emergency kit'.
I guess if companies stop accepting cash, a different mitigation method would be required.
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
Lots of things haven't happened yet. You can't worry (or be prepared) for everything.DocInColo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:58 amHasn’t happened yet but that doesn’t mean it won’t. Plenty of people on here have posted about weird things happening to accounts and not having access to funds. Question is, is it worth worrying about...
It makes sense to keep a small amount of cash around. But I wouldn't be worried.
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
It depends on what stage of life you're in. I have a 401k at my former employer (I keep it there because of additional legal protections for 401ks in my state), a brokerage account at Schwab, and a checking account at a credit union. My son is a co-owner with me of the checking account so that, in the case of my death, he could pay for cremation, a funeral, and keep the bills paid at my condo while the children decide what they are going to do with it. I should, though, keep more cash on hand, just in case. I like the simplicity of not handling cash or change.
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
During this pandemic, many places required payment with credit card only, and would not accept cash.I guess if companies stop accepting cash, a different mitigation method would be required
The mightiest Oak is just a nut who stayed the course.
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
This is a really interesting topic. I would love to pare down our financial life to only a handful of accounts. Unfortunately, there are some reasons why we haven't.DocInColo wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:30 pm The thread on minimalism was fascinating and a great read. I thought it would be interesting to hear the perspectives of financial minimalists or wannabe financial minimalists like myself.
I’ve struggled with trying to simplify everything while not wanting to have all the eggs in one basket. For example, I’d like to have all my cash at one bank, but don’t want the risk of a single point of failure. Same thing with brokerages and credit cards.
How do you incorporate minimalism in your financial life while also dealing with the risk?
1. We have accounts at different institutions to take advantage of "best-in-breed" offerings.
2. With certain accounts, we are forced to have them with certain institutions.
An example of #1 is with credit cards. We carry multiple credit cards to take advantage of various cash back offerings and other rewards for certain spending categories. Another example would be our solo 401k vendor which we only use for that account because our primary broker's plan is suboptimal.
An example of #2 is my 401k account, 529 account, and ABLE account which are forced to be with certain vendors. Yes, I know you can open the last two with any state's plan, but then we would forgo the state tax deduction that we would get by using our state's sponsored plan.
Ideally, I would like to pare down the number of vendors that we use. However, in order to do that, there is some feature or optimization that we would have to give up. I suppose that there may come a point where I value simplicity over optimization, but I am not quite there yet.
Here would be my perfect account lineup:
One FDIC bank with checking/hub account and high yield savings account / CD's
[Note: If bank doesn't have a local branch, a second checking account solely for local access (notary, etc)]
3-4 investment firms:
-One brokerage firm for taxable accounts (joint account, trust account), affiliated with our hub bank for ease of transfer
-One brokerage firm for non-401k retirement accounts (would be open to using the same firm as the taxable brokerage)
-401k account (my 401k has really good options so I intend to keep money there, even after retirement)
-ABLE account
Credit card(s) with hub bank (if available) plus 2-3 additional cards as backup
I figure this provides a balance between simplicity, not putting all eggs in one basket, and taking advantage of "best-in-breed"
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
Same here. And I'm trying to figure out how one could get food/goods delivered using just cash.
Still it seems reasonable to keep at least some around.
This isn't just my wallet. It's an organizer, a memory and an old friend.
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
Credit cards are a trade off. On the one hand there is supposedly a lot to be gained by churning cards and trying to always optimize spend, but for me it’s way too complicated and time consuming.humblecoder wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:44 pm An example of #1 is with credit cards. We carry multiple credit cards to take advantage of various cash back offerings and other rewards for certain spending categories. Another example would be our solo 401k vendor which we only use for that account because our primary broker's plan is suboptimal.
I know it’s all the rage now because travel bloggers push cards to make big bucks off referrals, but unless you’re (1) constantly opening new cards for bonuses or (2) spend 6 figures on the card a year, how many people are truly earning enough points to travel first class internationally and staying in 5 star hotels on a regular basis?
I don’t want to carry a wallet full of cards to decide which gets me 1% more or 2x points and then dealing with paying multiple statements at different times each month. Not to mention trying to figure out how to actually get a decent value from frequent flyer miles. Credit cards are probably the best place to adopt financial minimalism.
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
I think the pandemic has finally made us think about how gross paper money is. who knows where that one little piece of paper has been and how many people handled it (or where they kept it). I for one am glad contactless payments are taking off. At least I know where my card has been and I can Lysol wipe it!
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
Come on. As long as you don't get carried away, it's not THAT complicated to have multiple bank accounts, brokerage accounts, & credit cards. Most people wind up with a few of each due to sign up bonuses, or happenstance, or just the way things historically play out. But let's say you have a personal checking and savings accounts at one bank which has brick and mortar branches near you for convenience. A different bank for your business accounts. There's still value to the brick and mortar bank access. If an on line bank screws up there's no one you can go into see and get it straightened out.DocInColo wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:30 pm The thread on minimalism was fascinating and a great read. I thought it would be interesting to hear the perspectives of financial minimalists or wannabe financial minimalists like myself.
I’ve struggled with trying to simplify everything while not wanting to have all the eggs in one basket. For example, I’d like to have all my cash at one bank, but don’t want the risk of a single point of failure. Same thing with brokerages and credit cards.
How do you incorporate minimalism in your financial life while also dealing with the risk?
Brokerages: You might need one place like Vanguard for your personal accounts and IRA and then another one for the 401(k). If you have a couple of more though it's no big deal.
Credit cards: personal and business Amex cards, a couple of visas and mastercards, maybe a discover too. Different cards have different bonuses which you might want to take advantage of.
So, let's say you have ten accounts all together. You sign up for online access for all of them, all of the logins and passwords and security questions will fit on a single sheet of paper. Scan the paper and email it to yourself, open up a couple of additional free gmail accounts and send copies to those accounts as back ups. Put the hard copy in a safe deposit box at your brick and mortar bank if you're paranoid. Make sure your spouse/significant other has a copy too.
Simplicity is great, but only to a point. Modern life can be complicated. I would think a single sheet of paper is simple enough for almost anyone though.
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
You are painting it as an "all-or-nothing" proposition. It isn't. It isn't a choice between 1 credit card vs 1000's of credit cards. I fall someplace in the middle. I have multiple cards to get what I call "low hanging fruit" optimization, but I am not as intense as those travel bloggers you mention. Here are my personal setup.DocInColo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:39 pmCredit cards are a trade off. On the one hand there is supposedly a lot to be gained by churning cards and trying to always optimize spend, but for me it’s way too complicated and time consuming.humblecoder wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:44 pm An example of #1 is with credit cards. We carry multiple credit cards to take advantage of various cash back offerings and other rewards for certain spending categories. Another example would be our solo 401k vendor which we only use for that account because our primary broker's plan is suboptimal.
I know it’s all the rage now because travel bloggers push cards to make big bucks off referrals, but unless you’re (1) constantly opening new cards for bonuses or (2) spend 6 figures on the card a year, how many people are truly earning enough points to travel first class internationally and staying in 5 star hotels on a regular basis?
I don’t want to carry a wallet full of cards to decide which gets me 1% more or 2x points and then dealing with paying multiple statements at different times each month. Not to mention trying to figure out how to actually get a decent value from frequent flyer miles. Credit cards are probably the best place to adopt financial minimalism.
1. BoA Premium Rewards for a base 2.625% (with Platinum Honors qualification)
2. BoA Cash Rewards for 5.25% on selected category (usually online but I will change it to travel if I have a big vacation purchase coming up)
3. Chase Freedom and Discover for 5% cash back in rotating categories
4. Target Red Card for 5% cash back on Target purchases
5. Amazon Prime Card for 5% cash back on Amazon purchases
6. Hilton Amex for hotel
Honestly, it isn't a bad as it seems. 4, 5, and 6 are just used at those single vendors. 2 is for online only. 1 is the card that I carry daily and used for everything that doesn't get a bigger reward. The most complexity comes from remembering the rotating categories for 2 and 3 since they change every quarter.
The last three cards I don't even carry with me. I just stick them in a drawer. For Target, I use their e-wallet in their phone app so it is easy to use. Similarly for the Amazon and Hilton cards, they are set up in my respective profiles, so again I don't even have to think about it.
To be quite honest, having these cards really isn't any additional work other than remembering the rotating categories for the quarter.
I also only take cash back (other than 6) in order to keep things simple. I don't optimize for points/rewards.
You mentioned the "pain" of multiple bills. That is a non-issue. I get my bills/reminders electronically so it is very easy to keep track of. Plus, I set up the due dates to all align, so I take care of paying them in one shot.
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
That sounds exhausting to me. I waste time and energy on things you would think are not worth it either though. But one card that I didn’t have to think about is enough for me. I have a back-up card in case there is some issue with it- it gets declined or lost.humblecoder wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:02 amYou are painting it as an "all-or-nothing" proposition. It isn't. It isn't a choice between 1 credit card vs 1000's of credit cards. I fall someplace in the middle. I have multiple cards to get what I call "low hanging fruit" optimization, but I am not as intense as those travel bloggers you mention. Here are my personal setup.DocInColo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:39 pmCredit cards are a trade off. On the one hand there is supposedly a lot to be gained by churning cards and trying to always optimize spend, but for me it’s way too complicated and time consuming.humblecoder wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:44 pm An example of #1 is with credit cards. We carry multiple credit cards to take advantage of various cash back offerings and other rewards for certain spending categories. Another example would be our solo 401k vendor which we only use for that account because our primary broker's plan is suboptimal.
I know it’s all the rage now because travel bloggers push cards to make big bucks off referrals, but unless you’re (1) constantly opening new cards for bonuses or (2) spend 6 figures on the card a year, how many people are truly earning enough points to travel first class internationally and staying in 5 star hotels on a regular basis?
I don’t want to carry a wallet full of cards to decide which gets me 1% more or 2x points and then dealing with paying multiple statements at different times each month. Not to mention trying to figure out how to actually get a decent value from frequent flyer miles. Credit cards are probably the best place to adopt financial minimalism.
1. BoA Premium Rewards for a base 2.625% (with Platinum Honors qualification)
2. BoA Cash Rewards for 5.25% on selected category (usually online but I will change it to travel if I have a big vacation purchase coming up)
3. Chase Freedom and Discover for 5% cash back in rotating categories
4. Target Red Card for 5% cash back on Target purchases
5. Amazon Prime Card for 5% cash back on Amazon purchases
6. Hilton Amex for hotel
Honestly, it isn't a bad as it seems. 4, 5, and 6 are just used at those single vendors. 2 is for online only. 1 is the card that I carry daily and used for everything that doesn't get a bigger reward. The most complexity comes from remembering the rotating categories for 2 and 3 since they change every quarter.
The last three cards I don't even carry with me. I just stick them in a drawer. For Target, I use their e-wallet in their phone app so it is easy to use. Similarly for the Amazon and Hilton cards, they are set up in my respective profiles, so again I don't even have to think about it.
To be quite honest, having these cards really isn't any additional work other than remembering the rotating categories for the quarter.
I also only take cash back (other than 6) in order to keep things simple. I don't optimize for points/rewards.
You mentioned the "pain" of multiple bills. That is a non-issue. I get my bills/reminders electronically so it is very easy to keep track of. Plus, I set up the due dates to all align, so I take care of paying them in one shot.
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
I'm a financial minimalist because I just don't seem to care a lot about the nitty gritty. That or I'm lazy.
Those two make for things to be very simple and easy.
I see so many things Bogleheads worry about that is so unlikely to occur:
The OP's concern of not accessing their account?It's not going to happen and even if it does I can handle the slight and short inconvenience.
Keeping statement copies? No
Freezing credit? Don't care
Closing CC? Why bother, just throw away card.
Optimizing CC rewards? Couldn't care less about squeezing more out
The list is endless. I just don't worry about these things. Correcting that: I just don't worry about things.
Maybe that is the ultimate answer.
Those two make for things to be very simple and easy.
I see so many things Bogleheads worry about that is so unlikely to occur:
The OP's concern of not accessing their account?It's not going to happen and even if it does I can handle the slight and short inconvenience.
Keeping statement copies? No
Freezing credit? Don't care
Closing CC? Why bother, just throw away card.
Optimizing CC rewards? Couldn't care less about squeezing more out
The list is endless. I just don't worry about these things. Correcting that: I just don't worry about things.
Maybe that is the ultimate answer.
Last edited by gr7070 on Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
I have a very similar CC setup, I stopped really churning a few years ago as it is getting much harder than it was previously. I don't know how choosing a specific card out of your wallet based upon where you are shopping is exhausting, I do far more "exhausting" things for a lot less money. As far as I am concerned, right now it's $1k-$1500/yr for doing virtually nothing.lazynovice wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:44 amThat sounds exhausting to me. I waste time and energy on things you would think are not worth it either though. But one card that I didn’t have to think about is enough for me. I have a back-up card in case there is some issue with it- it gets declined or lost.humblecoder wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:02 amYou are painting it as an "all-or-nothing" proposition. It isn't. It isn't a choice between 1 credit card vs 1000's of credit cards. I fall someplace in the middle. I have multiple cards to get what I call "low hanging fruit" optimization, but I am not as intense as those travel bloggers you mention. Here are my personal setup.DocInColo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:39 pmCredit cards are a trade off. On the one hand there is supposedly a lot to be gained by churning cards and trying to always optimize spend, but for me it’s way too complicated and time consuming.humblecoder wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:44 pm An example of #1 is with credit cards. We carry multiple credit cards to take advantage of various cash back offerings and other rewards for certain spending categories. Another example would be our solo 401k vendor which we only use for that account because our primary broker's plan is suboptimal.
I know it’s all the rage now because travel bloggers push cards to make big bucks off referrals, but unless you’re (1) constantly opening new cards for bonuses or (2) spend 6 figures on the card a year, how many people are truly earning enough points to travel first class internationally and staying in 5 star hotels on a regular basis?
I don’t want to carry a wallet full of cards to decide which gets me 1% more or 2x points and then dealing with paying multiple statements at different times each month. Not to mention trying to figure out how to actually get a decent value from frequent flyer miles. Credit cards are probably the best place to adopt financial minimalism.
1. BoA Premium Rewards for a base 2.625% (with Platinum Honors qualification)
2. BoA Cash Rewards for 5.25% on selected category (usually online but I will change it to travel if I have a big vacation purchase coming up)
3. Chase Freedom and Discover for 5% cash back in rotating categories
4. Target Red Card for 5% cash back on Target purchases
5. Amazon Prime Card for 5% cash back on Amazon purchases
6. Hilton Amex for hotel
Honestly, it isn't a bad as it seems. 4, 5, and 6 are just used at those single vendors. 2 is for online only. 1 is the card that I carry daily and used for everything that doesn't get a bigger reward. The most complexity comes from remembering the rotating categories for 2 and 3 since they change every quarter.
The last three cards I don't even carry with me. I just stick them in a drawer. For Target, I use their e-wallet in their phone app so it is easy to use. Similarly for the Amazon and Hilton cards, they are set up in my respective profiles, so again I don't even have to think about it.
To be quite honest, having these cards really isn't any additional work other than remembering the rotating categories for the quarter.
I also only take cash back (other than 6) in order to keep things simple. I don't optimize for points/rewards.
You mentioned the "pain" of multiple bills. That is a non-issue. I get my bills/reminders electronically so it is very easy to keep track of. Plus, I set up the due dates to all align, so I take care of paying them in one shot.
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
Honestly, it really isn't a lot of work.lazynovice wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:44 amThat sounds exhausting to me. I waste time and energy on things you would think are not worth it either though. But one card that I didn’t have to think about is enough for me. I have a back-up card in case there is some issue with it- it gets declined or lost.humblecoder wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:02 amYou are painting it as an "all-or-nothing" proposition. It isn't. It isn't a choice between 1 credit card vs 1000's of credit cards. I fall someplace in the middle. I have multiple cards to get what I call "low hanging fruit" optimization, but I am not as intense as those travel bloggers you mention. Here are my personal setup.DocInColo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:39 pmCredit cards are a trade off. On the one hand there is supposedly a lot to be gained by churning cards and trying to always optimize spend, but for me it’s way too complicated and time consuming.humblecoder wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:44 pm An example of #1 is with credit cards. We carry multiple credit cards to take advantage of various cash back offerings and other rewards for certain spending categories. Another example would be our solo 401k vendor which we only use for that account because our primary broker's plan is suboptimal.
I know it’s all the rage now because travel bloggers push cards to make big bucks off referrals, but unless you’re (1) constantly opening new cards for bonuses or (2) spend 6 figures on the card a year, how many people are truly earning enough points to travel first class internationally and staying in 5 star hotels on a regular basis?
I don’t want to carry a wallet full of cards to decide which gets me 1% more or 2x points and then dealing with paying multiple statements at different times each month. Not to mention trying to figure out how to actually get a decent value from frequent flyer miles. Credit cards are probably the best place to adopt financial minimalism.
1. BoA Premium Rewards for a base 2.625% (with Platinum Honors qualification)
2. BoA Cash Rewards for 5.25% on selected category (usually online but I will change it to travel if I have a big vacation purchase coming up)
3. Chase Freedom and Discover for 5% cash back in rotating categories
4. Target Red Card for 5% cash back on Target purchases
5. Amazon Prime Card for 5% cash back on Amazon purchases
6. Hilton Amex for hotel
Honestly, it isn't a bad as it seems. 4, 5, and 6 are just used at those single vendors. 2 is for online only. 1 is the card that I carry daily and used for everything that doesn't get a bigger reward. The most complexity comes from remembering the rotating categories for 2 and 3 since they change every quarter.
The last three cards I don't even carry with me. I just stick them in a drawer. For Target, I use their e-wallet in their phone app so it is easy to use. Similarly for the Amazon and Hilton cards, they are set up in my respective profiles, so again I don't even have to think about it.
To be quite honest, having these cards really isn't any additional work other than remembering the rotating categories for the quarter.
I also only take cash back (other than 6) in order to keep things simple. I don't optimize for points/rewards.
You mentioned the "pain" of multiple bills. That is a non-issue. I get my bills/reminders electronically so it is very easy to keep track of. Plus, I set up the due dates to all align, so I take care of paying them in one shot.
When I buy on Amazon, I have my Amazon card set as my default payment method. So once I set that up in my Amazon profile, it is zero work. Same thing for Target and Hilton. I set them up in my profile once so it is my default payment method. Zero work after that.
For online purchases, I use the Cash Rewards card. Again, zero work. I use it in my online profile for any e-commerce web sites. Once it is there, I don't have to do anything additional.
The other three cards I carry in my wallet for in-person purchases. I just have to remember "this month Discover gives 5% back on gas so I use this card at gas stations". So not zero work but not rocket science.
If remembering the rotating categories is too much work for some, I understand that. But the others really don't require any additional brain cells.
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
I know others who optimize up the wazoo, churning cards for bonuses, etc. I never got to that level. My (our) system is a good balance of simplicity and optimization. I netted close to $2K last year for very little work other than committing to memory the rotating categories every quarter.stoptothink wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:50 amI have a very similar CC setup, I stopped really churning a few years ago as it is getting much harder than it was previously. I don't know how choosing a specific card out of your wallet based upon where you are shopping is exhausting, I do far more "exhausting" things for a lot less money. As far as I am concerned, right now it's $1k-$1500/yr for doing virtually nothing.lazynovice wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:44 am That sounds exhausting to me. I waste time and energy on things you would think are not worth it either though. But one card that I didn’t have to think about is enough for me. I have a back-up card in case there is some issue with it- it gets declined or lost.
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
To one up financial minimalizing... I don't have a clue how much my rewards are annually. They just show up.humblecoder wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:07 amI know others who optimize up the wazoo, churning cards for bonuses, etc. I never got to that level. My (our) system is a good balance of simplicity and optimization. I netted close to $2K last year for very little work other than committing to memory the rotating categories every quarter.stoptothink wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:50 amI have a very similar CC setup, I stopped really churning a few years ago as it is getting much harder than it was previously. I don't know how choosing a specific card out of your wallet based upon where you are shopping is exhausting, I do far more "exhausting" things for a lot less money. As far as I am concerned, right now it's $1k-$1500/yr for doing virtually nothing.lazynovice wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:44 am That sounds exhausting to me. I waste time and energy on things you would think are not worth it either though. But one card that I didn’t have to think about is enough for me. I have a back-up card in case there is some issue with it- it gets declined or lost.
I have cards that auto credit. That's how little I want to be involved with my rewards.
Meh.
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
Can you link the minimalism thread you referenced?
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
And then eventually, you find yourself at 90-something years old, and guess what? It suddenly is a lot more than you really want to deal with, but by that point, it's actually a lot of work to consolidate that you many not want to take on at that age, either.Peaceful wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:59 pm Come on. As long as you don't get carried away, it's not THAT complicated to have multiple bank accounts, brokerage accounts, & credit cards. Most people wind up with a few of each due to sign up bonuses, or happenstance, or just the way things historically play out.
It's best to begin the process of consolidating your assets while you're still agile and sharp. Or limit asset scattering in the first place.
“Now shall I walk or shall I ride? |
'Ride,' Pleasure said; |
'Walk,' Joy replied.” |
|
― W.H. Davies
- plutoblackhole
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
I really like the idea of financial minimalism. The Fidelity as a one stop shop thread was absolutely great to read (all 37 pages of it.)
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
So don't take advantage of the benefits FOR DECADES, because at some point you'll be old and cognitive decline will make it a hassle? I guess I shouldn't get in the habit of exercising either, because eventually it will get difficult. We definitely have different mindsets. There is nothing I do that earns more $ per amount of effort than taking advantage of credit card rewards and sign-on bonuses.backpacker61 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:28 pmAnd then eventually, you find yourself at 90-something years old, and guess what? It suddenly is a lot more than you really want to deal with, but by that point, it's actually a lot of work to consolidate that you many not want to take on at that age, either.Peaceful wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:59 pm Come on. As long as you don't get carried away, it's not THAT complicated to have multiple bank accounts, brokerage accounts, & credit cards. Most people wind up with a few of each due to sign up bonuses, or happenstance, or just the way things historically play out.
It's best to begin the process of consolidating your assets while you're still agile and sharp. Or limit asset scattering in the first place.
- Mountain Doc
- Posts: 409
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
I have moved toward financial simplicity over the past few years (despite my innate optimizer personality):
-One bank
-One broker (CMA here acts as a back-up checking account)
-One mutual fund
-One credit card used (admittedly, we do have two sock-drawer cards that could be used in travel or emergency situations)
-A small amount of cash at home for the power outage scenarios (i.e. Texas)
Personally, I like this system. I think it is robust enough to avoid major inconveniences, but very simple to manage and my spouse or heirs could take it over without missing a step should something happen to me. With a more complex setup I could earn a little more interest, earn a little more CC rewards, and pay a slightly lower expense ratio. However, I have decided this is good enough for me and feel the benefits of simplicity outweigh the optimized approach.
-One bank
-One broker (CMA here acts as a back-up checking account)
-One mutual fund
-One credit card used (admittedly, we do have two sock-drawer cards that could be used in travel or emergency situations)
-A small amount of cash at home for the power outage scenarios (i.e. Texas)
Personally, I like this system. I think it is robust enough to avoid major inconveniences, but very simple to manage and my spouse or heirs could take it over without missing a step should something happen to me. With a more complex setup I could earn a little more interest, earn a little more CC rewards, and pay a slightly lower expense ratio. However, I have decided this is good enough for me and feel the benefits of simplicity outweigh the optimized approach.
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- Location: Denver area. Former Texan.
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
I am striving to get where you are. With interest rates where they are, chasing the best savings rate is barely worth it anymore. That is my last hurdle.Mountain Doc wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:43 pm I have moved toward financial simplicity over the past few years (despite my innate optimizer personality):
-One bank
-One broker (CMA here acts as a back-up checking account)
-One mutual fund
-One credit card used (admittedly, we do have two sock-drawer cards that could be used in travel or emergency situations)
-A small amount of cash at home for the power outage scenarios (i.e. Texas)
Personally, I like this system. I think it is robust enough to avoid major inconveniences, but very simple to manage and my spouse or heirs could take it over without missing a step should something happen to me.
Our younger child turning 21 this year and finishing college will clear me of watching his custodial accounts and 529.
Getting to one mutual fund would require some work to avoid taxes. Did you convert to one fund during a down market or were you always one fund?
- Mountain Doc
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- Location: Life Elevated
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
All of my investments are in tax-advantaged accounts, so it was easier for me to go one-fund. If I had a large taxable account, I would probably bite the bullet and have more than one fundlazynovice wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:55 pmI am striving to get where you are. With interest rates where they are, chasing the best savings rate is barely worth it anymore. That is my last hurdle.Mountain Doc wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:43 pm I have moved toward financial simplicity over the past few years (despite my innate optimizer personality):
-One bank
-One broker (CMA here acts as a back-up checking account)
-One mutual fund
-One credit card used (admittedly, we do have two sock-drawer cards that could be used in travel or emergency situations)
-A small amount of cash at home for the power outage scenarios (i.e. Texas)
Personally, I like this system. I think it is robust enough to avoid major inconveniences, but very simple to manage and my spouse or heirs could take it over without missing a step should something happen to me.
Our younger child turning 21 this year and finishing college will clear me of watching his custodial accounts and 529.
Getting to one mutual fund would require some work to avoid taxes. Did you convert to one fund during a down market or were you always one fund?
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
I agree on the interest rate. Even with 100k in a savings account, the difference between .2 or .5 is negligible, especially after taxes. Even at 1% I don’t think it would be worth it. Once rates start to rise I’ll move money back into a vanguard MMF.lazynovice wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:55 pmI am striving to get where you are. With interest rates where they are, chasing the best savings rate is barely worth it anymore. That is my last hurdle.Mountain Doc wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:43 pm I have moved toward financial simplicity over the past few years (despite my innate optimizer personality):
-One bank
-One broker (CMA here acts as a back-up checking account)
-One mutual fund
-One credit card used (admittedly, we do have two sock-drawer cards that could be used in travel or emergency situations)
-A small amount of cash at home for the power outage scenarios (i.e. Texas)
Personally, I like this system. I think it is robust enough to avoid major inconveniences, but very simple to manage and my spouse or heirs could take it over without missing a step should something happen to me.
Our younger child turning 21 this year and finishing college will clear me of watching his custodial accounts and 529.
Getting to one mutual fund would require some work to avoid taxes. Did you convert to one fund during a down market or were you always one fund?
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
How much money do you actually make off the bonuses and how much time do you spend opening, closing, monitoring, etc all of those accounts?stoptothink wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:35 pmSo don't take advantage of the benefits FOR DECADES, because at some point you'll be old and cognitive decline will make it a hassle? I guess I shouldn't get in the habit of exercising either, because eventually it will get difficult. We definitely have different mindsets. There is nothing I do that earns more $ per amount of effort than taking advantage of credit card rewards and sign-on bonuses.backpacker61 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:28 pmAnd then eventually, you find yourself at 90-something years old, and guess what? It suddenly is a lot more than you really want to deal with, but by that point, it's actually a lot of work to consolidate that you many not want to take on at that age, either.Peaceful wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:59 pm Come on. As long as you don't get carried away, it's not THAT complicated to have multiple bank accounts, brokerage accounts, & credit cards. Most people wind up with a few of each due to sign up bonuses, or happenstance, or just the way things historically play out.
It's best to begin the process of consolidating your assets while you're still agile and sharp. Or limit asset scattering in the first place.
Bloggers push miles and points cards (which they get referrals for) but I’ve yet to meet a real person who has actually gotten “great” value from points and miles these days. Airline miles are basically worthless. Sure you can find that one amazing first class rewards ticket, but it’s usually an inconvenient flight and only one way.
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
I used to churn pretty seriously, now it is just 3-4 decent ones a year. $1k-$1500/yr for literally a few minutes upfront and spending one second thinking about which card to use when I make a purchase. It takes a similar amount of time, a few minutes (maybe) to set up a savings account and transfer money (then let it sit) to get an account bonus. There are people on here who make $10k +/yr; that's work. There is $1k+/yr there on the table for anybody, for almost zero effort.DocInColo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:23 pmHow much money do you actually make off the bonuses and how much time do you spend opening, closing, monitoring, etc all of those accounts?stoptothink wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:35 pmSo don't take advantage of the benefits FOR DECADES, because at some point you'll be old and cognitive decline will make it a hassle? I guess I shouldn't get in the habit of exercising either, because eventually it will get difficult. We definitely have different mindsets. There is nothing I do that earns more $ per amount of effort than taking advantage of credit card rewards and sign-on bonuses.backpacker61 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:28 pmAnd then eventually, you find yourself at 90-something years old, and guess what? It suddenly is a lot more than you really want to deal with, but by that point, it's actually a lot of work to consolidate that you many not want to take on at that age, either.Peaceful wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:59 pm Come on. As long as you don't get carried away, it's not THAT complicated to have multiple bank accounts, brokerage accounts, & credit cards. Most people wind up with a few of each due to sign up bonuses, or happenstance, or just the way things historically play out.
It's best to begin the process of consolidating your assets while you're still agile and sharp. Or limit asset scattering in the first place.
Bloggers push miles and points cards (which they get referrals for) but I’ve yet to meet a real person who has actually gotten “great” value from points and miles these days. Airline miles are basically worthless. Sure you can find that one amazing first class rewards ticket, but it’s usually an inconvenient flight and only one way.
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
This isn't a comment on effort for rewards - my above posts are clear I don't bother with much effort towards these.
I'd suggest you can reduce CC efforts, regardless of reward intent, by simply not closing them nor monitoring them. The payoff isn't there.
You're asking for minimalist finances. Cut the card in half. Throw it away. Never think of it again. If you're really worried about a fraudulent use you can have email alerts set for this card.
Nothing to actually monitor. I don't monitor any cards for anything. I pay them monthly, reviewing the statement charges then.
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
Exactly what I do.gr7070 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:11 pmThis isn't a comment on effort for rewards - my above posts are clear I don't bother with much effort towards these.
I'd suggest you can reduce CC efforts, regardless of reward intent, by simply not closing them nor monitoring them. The payoff isn't there.
You're asking for minimalist finances. Cut the card in half. Throw it away. Never think of it again. If you're really worried about a fraudulent use you can have email alerts set for this card.
Nothing to actually monitor. I don't monitor any cards for anything. I pay them monthly, reviewing the statement charges then.
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
This is a trade off as you and others have said.
We have the minimum number of investment accounts feasible, spread between employer, IRA, and taxable. We have one main hub bank and one backup. This thread reminds me I need to update bill payees in the backup account to enable it to fully serve its purpose. For credit cards it is a bit more complicated, although each of the ones we have is optimized for different areas of spending.
I don’t chase bank bonuses anymore.
We have the minimum number of investment accounts feasible, spread between employer, IRA, and taxable. We have one main hub bank and one backup. This thread reminds me I need to update bill payees in the backup account to enable it to fully serve its purpose. For credit cards it is a bit more complicated, although each of the ones we have is optimized for different areas of spending.
I don’t chase bank bonuses anymore.
85% Global Stock, 15% US Fixed Income
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
There are a number of folks who swear that they don’t spend one dime more per year when they get rewarded for for spending, not to mention with one of the most frictionless ways of spending possible. I say whatever you think is best for you go for it. For us it’s a no rewards/frills visa debit card run as credit. I like the friction added to the purchase of thinking hmm, how much do I have in the checking to cover this? Given we live paycheck to paycheck like most (after Vanguard gets paid their 70% of the pie) and just have a monthly power bill and phone bill both auto drafted..it works fine. Visa fraud protection of a CC is nice...has been needed a few times and they were on top of it making it a near non issue. On vacation, big expenses like lodging are usually already paid and we carry some cash just in case.
Local bank with small checking/savings
Vanguard Ira/aftertax brokerage (vtsax/sp500 and total bond)
Work Hsa and 401k (both in sp500)
No debt
No chasing points/rewards/interest
Local bank with small checking/savings
Vanguard Ira/aftertax brokerage (vtsax/sp500 and total bond)
Work Hsa and 401k (both in sp500)
No debt
No chasing points/rewards/interest
Last edited by Carguy85 on Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
Curious to know what you adjust between if you are 100% single-fundgideon trumpet wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:13 amI'm 100% single-fund. (I won't mention the fund because it's not particularly relevant.) There are many options to choose from in this genre -- total world funds, US equities, target-retirement funds, balanced funds -- take your pick. But I love the simplicity of having a consistent place to invest, irrespective of market conditions, without the need to rebalance or tinker. Virtually all of my investing is on autopilot, adjusted yearly. I am not a fan of ETFs because they're less amenable to autopilot investing (and withdrawing, though I'm not there yet) and they encourage me to make more choices than I need. Without paying a professional manager, I want to minimize my involvement as far as possible because -- let's be real -- any "strategy" I come up with to juice returns is probably the single biggest threat to my financial wellbeing.
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
Keeping it simple since 1983 - 1 bank, 1 credit card, and a 3-fund portfolio. Put your investment contributions on auto-pilot, increase with raises, check your AA once a year.
Final step: go enjoy your life while compounding and dividend reinvesting do the hard work. It sure worked for us.
Final step: go enjoy your life while compounding and dividend reinvesting do the hard work. It sure worked for us.
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
I adjust only the amount scheduled for automatic investment based on annual changes to income and expenses. No adjustments to the underlying fund. The simplicity of it keeps me focused on the savings rate because that's the only lever I've got.crossbow wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:16 pmCurious to know what you adjust between if you are 100% single-fundgideon trumpet wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:13 amI'm 100% single-fund. (I won't mention the fund because it's not particularly relevant.) There are many options to choose from in this genre -- total world funds, US equities, target-retirement funds, balanced funds -- take your pick. But I love the simplicity of having a consistent place to invest, irrespective of market conditions, without the need to rebalance or tinker. Virtually all of my investing is on autopilot, adjusted yearly. I am not a fan of ETFs because they're less amenable to autopilot investing (and withdrawing, though I'm not there yet) and they encourage me to make more choices than I need. Without paying a professional manager, I want to minimize my involvement as far as possible because -- let's be real -- any "strategy" I come up with to juice returns is probably the single biggest threat to my financial wellbeing.
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Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
Fido (taxable inv + pretax ira + Roth+ checking backup ATM free anywhere) + local CU with highish yield for the cash stash that SO uses only (I can’t bear to see what happens in there so it keeps us both happy)+only 1 credit card with cash back. That is all. I use the Fido debit card only and SO uses the CU card. We do use the credit card for travel, hotels, bigger, purchases, medical, etc. We also keep a shell gas card that is used on trips.
Financial minimalism is that everything we have is all paid off and keeping that way. I still pay any balance on the credit every week to make sure nothing stupid is happening.
Financial minimalism is that everything we have is all paid off and keeping that way. I still pay any balance on the credit every week to make sure nothing stupid is happening.
Re: Personal Finances and Minimalism
I would never have more cash in one bank than the FDIC limit ($250k), despite enjoying minimalism.. I assume you don't..DocInColo wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:30 pm I’ve struggled with trying to simplify everything while not wanting to have all the eggs in one basket. For example, I’d like to have all my cash at one bank, but don’t want the risk of a single point of failure. Same thing with brokerages and credit cards.