Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.
Isabelle77
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by Isabelle77 »

drk wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:46 pm
chance wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:27 pm What are people paying for LTC policies? Just curious how much less it is than the tax that you are all trying to avoid.
My policy costs a little less than a quarter of what I would pay in taxes.
Same
tyros
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by tyros »

chance wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:27 pm What are people paying for LTC policies? Just curious how much less it is than the tax that you are all trying to avoid.
If you're young and planning to cancel after 1 year, it doesn't matter, still cheaper than paying tax for the rest of your life.
corpgator
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by corpgator »

Mine costs about 30% more than the tax, but I got in super late and the only thing I could find was life with an LTC rider - I do get money back the longer I stay, but I don't plan to stay long. My income will be going up every year, and my price for insurance will not if I did decide to keep it.
chance
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by chance »

corpgator wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:55 pm Mine costs about 30% more than the tax, but I got in super late and the only thing I could find was life with an LTC rider - I do get money back the longer I stay, but I don't plan to stay long. My income will be going up every year, and my price for insurance will not if I did decide to keep it.
That's exactly the situation I am in at age 56. I put together a calculator and with the cash back value I would save about $3500 after 5 years and almost $10k after 10 years. Coverage is $50k max (vs $36.5k max in WA Cares) plus it's portable if I move to another state. So thinking I will take the plunge and pay more :moneybag (for now :wink: ).

Another question: Everyone seems to think that theycan jump ship after a year or two. What basis do we have for thinking that the state can't compel you to continue to pay for a policy or face back taxes?
drk
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by drk »

chance wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:13 pm What basis do we have for thinking that the state can't compel you to continue to pay for a policy or face back taxes?
The text of the law itself is very clear about the nature of the exemption. Speculating about future policy changes is out of bounds for this forum, so I won't do that.
A useful razor: anyone asking about speculative strategies on Bogleheads.org has no business using them.
WoW2012
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by WoW2012 »

drk wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:09 pm
chance wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:13 pm What basis do we have for thinking that the state can't compel you to continue to pay for a policy or face back taxes?
The text of the law itself is very clear about the nature of the exemption. Speculating about future policy changes is out of bounds for this forum, so I won't do that.
Permanent opt-out means that once someone opts out they can never choose to opt-in again.
Permanent opt-out does NOT mean the government is powerless to revoke someone’s fraudulent opt-out.
The intent of the law is very clear. I'm looking forward to discussing future legislative changes on this forum in about 6 months.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
ElJefeDelQueso
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by ElJefeDelQueso »

WoW2012 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:16 pm
drk wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:09 pm
chance wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:13 pm What basis do we have for thinking that the state can't compel you to continue to pay for a policy or face back taxes?
The text of the law itself is very clear about the nature of the exemption. Speculating about future policy changes is out of bounds for this forum, so I won't do that.
Permanent opt-out means that once someone opts out they can never choose to opt-in again.
Permanent opt-out does NOT mean the government is powerless to revoke someone’s fraudulent opt-out.
The intent of the law is very clear. I'm looking forward to discussing future legislative changes on this forum in about 6 months.
Let's focus on the positive actionable things. I'm not worried about our fellow boglehead friends committing fraud.
WoW2012
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by WoW2012 »

ElJefeDelQueso wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:24 pm
Let's focus on the positive actionable things. I'm not worried about our fellow boglehead friends committing fraud.
Why not? More than one has suggested it on this forum and have not been banned for it.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
pasadena
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by pasadena »

WoW2012 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:16 pm
drk wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:09 pm
chance wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:13 pm What basis do we have for thinking that the state can't compel you to continue to pay for a policy or face back taxes?
The text of the law itself is very clear about the nature of the exemption. Speculating about future policy changes is out of bounds for this forum, so I won't do that.
Permanent opt-out means that once someone opts out they can never choose to opt-in again.
Permanent opt-out does NOT mean the government is powerless to revoke someone’s fraudulent opt-out.
The intent of the law is very clear. I'm looking forward to discussing future legislative changes on this forum in about 6 months.
We were talking about cancelling our policies in the future, not applying for exemption without one. As far as I can tell (and I agree that the law on this specific point isn't clear), this isn't fraud. That's my plan, but I'll keep mine until they make it clear that we're not required to maintain coverage forever.

I did come across some sort of FAQ from ESD that addressed this point (it was a Word document) but of course I can't find it anymore. It was a little clearer but not 100%.
StoopieHippo
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by StoopieHippo »

My husband (43yo) just got notified of his approval. He applied about an hour after I (35yo) did on Saturday morning. My application still only says submitted. :( Maybe it's due to my age?
Marseille07
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by Marseille07 »

StoopieHippo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:10 pm My husband (43yo) just got notified of his approval. He applied about an hour after I (35yo) did on Saturday morning. My application still only says submitted. :( Maybe it's due to my age?
Are we OK to opt-out with an approval only? I got approved but still waiting for the certificate to be issued and mailed. Technically I don't think I can claim I have LTCi just yet.
ElJefeDelQueso
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by ElJefeDelQueso »

WoW2012 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:29 pm
ElJefeDelQueso wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:24 pm
Let's focus on the positive actionable things. I'm not worried about our fellow boglehead friends committing fraud.
Why not? More than one has suggested it on this forum and have not been banned for it.
It's fractious.
StoopieHippo
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by StoopieHippo »

Marseille07 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:16 pm
StoopieHippo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:10 pm My husband (43yo) just got notified of his approval. He applied about an hour after I (35yo) did on Saturday morning. My application still only says submitted. :( Maybe it's due to my age?
Are we OK to opt-out with an approval only? I got approved but still waiting for the certificate to be issued and mailed. Technically I don't think I can claim I have LTCi just yet.
We were both approved for LTCi a while back. He was just approved for the exemption, but I'm still waiting for mine.
intendi
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by intendi »

I'm not planning on cancelling my policy now that the opt out letter is in hand.

However, I'll probably shop around for a cheaper one when the marketplace normalizes.

To the agents on this thread, how can I do this without adversely affecting the agent who wrote my current policy? Is there a certain amount of time to wait?
WoW2012
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by WoW2012 »

intendi wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:18 am I'm not planning on cancelling my policy now that the opt out letter is in hand.

However, I'll probably shop around for a cheaper one when the marketplace normalizes.

To the agents on this thread, how can I do this without adversely affecting the agent who wrote my current policy? Is there a certain amount of time to wait?
13 months
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
drk
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by drk »

WoW2012 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:16 pm Permanent opt-out means that once someone opts out they can never choose to opt-in again.
Permanent opt-out does NOT mean the government is powerless to revoke someone’s fraudulent opt-out.
The intent of the law is very clear. I'm looking forward to discussing future legislative changes on this forum in about 6 months.
While I never indicated that I intend to cancel my plan after getting an exemption (again: less than 25% the cost of the tax), I'll emphasize that following the law as written isn't fraud. See also: the Backdoor Roth or whichever "tax loophole" is your favorite.
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WoW2012
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by WoW2012 »

drk wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:00 am
WoW2012 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:16 pm Permanent opt-out means that once someone opts out they can never choose to opt-in again.
Permanent opt-out does NOT mean the government is powerless to revoke someone’s fraudulent opt-out.
The intent of the law is very clear. I'm looking forward to discussing future legislative changes on this forum in about 6 months.
While I never indicated that I intend to cancel my plan after getting an exemption (again: less than 25% the cost of the tax), I'll emphasize that following the law as written isn't fraud. See also: the Backdoor Roth or whichever "tax loophole" is your favorite.
Buying an insurance policy from an insurance company with the intent to cancel it after a few months defrauds the agent and the company.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
tyros
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by tyros »

WoW2012 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:08 pm
drk wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:00 am
WoW2012 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:16 pm Permanent opt-out means that once someone opts out they can never choose to opt-in again.
Permanent opt-out does NOT mean the government is powerless to revoke someone’s fraudulent opt-out.
The intent of the law is very clear. I'm looking forward to discussing future legislative changes on this forum in about 6 months.
While I never indicated that I intend to cancel my plan after getting an exemption (again: less than 25% the cost of the tax), I'll emphasize that following the law as written isn't fraud. See also: the Backdoor Roth or whichever "tax loophole" is your favorite.
Buying an insurance policy from an insurance company with the intent to cancel it after a few months defrauds the agent and the company.
How does that defraud them, they got a few months worth of premium payments for nothing. It's still a win for them.
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davibi02
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by davibi02 »

WoW2012 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:08 pm Buying an insurance policy from an insurance company with the intent to cancel it after a few months defrauds the agent and the company.
You could make an argument it's immoral or unethical, but it's certainly not fraud.
WoW2012
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by WoW2012 »

tyros wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:48 pm
How does that defraud them, they got a few months worth of premium payments for nothing. It's still a win for them.

It costs several hundred dollars to underwrite and issue a long-term care insurance policy: medical records, prescription drug reports, phone health interviews, blood and urine samples, etc...

That's how it defrauds the insurance company.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by WoW2012 »

davibi02 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:51 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:08 pm Buying an insurance policy from an insurance company with the intent to cancel it after a few months defrauds the agent and the company.
You could make an argument it's immoral or unethical, but it's certainly not fraud.
I didn't say, "fraud". I said "defraud". There's a difference.

It costs several hundred dollars to underwrite and issue a long-term care insurance policy: medical records, prescription drug reports, phone health interviews, blood and urine samples, etc...

That's how it defrauds the insurance company.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
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truenyer
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by truenyer »

WoW2012 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:51 pm
tyros wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:48 pm
How does that defraud them, they got a few months worth of premium payments for nothing. It's still a win for them.

It costs several hundred dollars to underwrite and issue a long-term care insurance policy: medical records, prescription drug reports, phone health interviews, blood and urine samples, etc...

That's how it defrauds the insurance company.
Do you mean "unethical?" Show me where this is against a company policy, or even worse, against the law?
czaj
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by czaj »

WoW2012 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:52 pm
davibi02 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:51 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:08 pm Buying an insurance policy from an insurance company with the intent to cancel it after a few months defrauds the agent and the company.
You could make an argument it's immoral or unethical, but it's certainly not fraud.
I didn't say, "fraud". I said "defraud". There's a difference.

It costs several hundred dollars to underwrite and issue a long-term care insurance policy: medical records, prescription drug reports, phone health interviews, blood and urine samples, etc...

That's how it defrauds the insurance company.
Sounds like that’s the cost of doing business.
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davibi02
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by davibi02 »

WoW2012 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:52 pm I didn't say, "fraud". I said "defraud". There's a difference.

It costs several hundred dollars to underwrite and issue a long-term care insurance policy: medical records, prescription drug reports, phone health interviews, blood and urine samples, etc...

That's how it defrauds the insurance company.
Defraud means to take by fraud. If someone cancels their policy as is within their rights laid out in the contract, there is nothing even deceitful in that action, much less fraudulent.

Personally though, I plan to keep my policy, and I appreciate the effort that went into making things happen for me before the deadline.
chance
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by chance »

drk wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:09 pm
chance wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:13 pm What basis do we have for thinking that the state can't compel you to continue to pay for a policy or face back taxes?
The text of the law itself is very clear about the nature of the exemption. Speculating about future policy changes is out of bounds for this forum, so I won't do that.
I read the legislation and I don't think the text is clear about that. It only says that the exempt are permanently disqualified. It doesn't say anything about whether or not continued coverage is required. But it does say that the departments in charge of the legislation are required to issue rules and regulations.
Washington State Legislature wrote:(9) The department must adopt rules necessary to implement and administer the activities specified in this section related to the program, including rules on the submission and processing of applications under this section.
They could issue a rule requiring ongoing attestation (and verification) of coverage for exempt persons and consequences for those who fail to satisfy the terms.
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willthrill81
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by willthrill81 »

WoW2012 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:52 pm
davibi02 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:51 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:08 pm Buying an insurance policy from an insurance company with the intent to cancel it after a few months defrauds the agent and the company.
You could make an argument it's immoral or unethical, but it's certainly not fraud.
I didn't say, "fraud". I said "defraud". There's a difference.
Defraud is a verb, while fraud is a noun. Beyond that, they refer to the same concept.

Merriam-Webster
defraud: to deprive of something by deception or fraud
Collins Dictionary
If someone defrauds you, they take something away from you or stop you from getting what belongs to you by means of tricks and lies.
Dictionary.com
defraud: to deprive of a right, money, or property by fraud
Legal-Dictionary
defraud: to use deceit, falsehoods, or trickery to obtain money, an object, rights or anything of value belonging to another
etc.

While I will not do so, there is not necessarily any fraud, defrauding, trickery, deception, falsehood, lies, etc. from an individual taking out an insurance policy with the intention to cancel it in a matter of months. It may be unethical, and it's likely that the insurance company will lose money in the process, but as mentioned already, sometimes those types of things are just the cost of doing business.
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willthrill81
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by willthrill81 »

Marseille07 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:16 pm
StoopieHippo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:10 pm My husband (43yo) just got notified of his approval. He applied about an hour after I (35yo) did on Saturday morning. My application still only says submitted. :( Maybe it's due to my age?
Are we OK to opt-out with an approval only? I got approved but still waiting for the certificate to be issued and mailed. Technically I don't think I can claim I have LTCi just yet.
I believe that the law is clear that a LTCi policy must be in force on 11/1/2021. That might be the case for you now, but it certainly should be before the end of the month.
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Marseille07
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by Marseille07 »

willthrill81 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:50 pm I believe that the law is clear that a LTCi policy must be in force on 11/1/2021. That might be the case for you now, but it certainly should be before the end of the month.
Yeah, I'm just being extra cautious because I need to attest that I have a policy before 11/1/21. I believe the certificate is issued later this week.
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by LadyGeek »

This is a "No politics" forum. I removed a post criticizing the law. See: Politics and Religion
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Isabelle77
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by Isabelle77 »

StoopieHippo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:10 pm My husband (43yo) just got notified of his approval. He applied about an hour after I (35yo) did on Saturday morning. My application still only says submitted. :( Maybe it's due to my age?
My husband is still waiting and he also applied Saturday morning. He's 45 and has had the policy in place since the summer. So who knows?
EnerJi
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by EnerJi »

willthrill81 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:50 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:16 pm Are we OK to opt-out with an approval only? I got approved but still waiting for the certificate to be issued and mailed. Technically I don't think I can claim I have LTCi just yet.
I believe that the law is clear that a LTCi policy must be in force on 11/1/2021.
I'm not a lawyer, but I'm not sure that is correct. The law simply says "An employee who attests that the employee has long-term care insurance purchased before November 1, 2021, may apply for an exemption from the premium assessment..."

I searched and couldn't find anything about the insurance being in-force. In fact, although the intent is clear enough, the language of the law seems to say that simply attesting is fine, nothing about actually having the insurance??? :confused

Regardless, I'd be fairly comfortable myself with opting out after an official written approval.
Marseille07
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by Marseille07 »

EnerJi wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:35 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:50 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:16 pm Are we OK to opt-out with an approval only? I got approved but still waiting for the certificate to be issued and mailed. Technically I don't think I can claim I have LTCi just yet.
I believe that the law is clear that a LTCi policy must be in force on 11/1/2021.
I'm not a lawyer, but I'm not sure that is correct. The law simply says "An employee who attests that the employee has long-term care insurance purchased before November 1, 2021, may apply for an exemption from the premium assessment..."

I searched and couldn't find anything about the insurance being in-force. In fact, although the intent is clear enough, the language of the law seems to say that simply attesting is fine, nothing about actually having the insurance??? :confused

Regardless, I'd be fairly comfortable myself with opting out after an official written approval.
How can I attest that I've purchased LTCi without...purchasing? Wouldn't that be considered perjury?
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willthrill81
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by willthrill81 »

EnerJi wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:35 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:50 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:16 pm Are we OK to opt-out with an approval only? I got approved but still waiting for the certificate to be issued and mailed. Technically I don't think I can claim I have LTCi just yet.
I believe that the law is clear that a LTCi policy must be in force on 11/1/2021.
I'm not a lawyer, but I'm not sure that is correct. The law simply says "An employee who attests that the employee has long-term care insurance purchased before November 1, 2021, may apply for an exemption from the premium assessment..."

I searched and couldn't find anything about the insurance being in-force. In fact, although the intent is clear enough, the language of the law seems to say that simply attesting is fine, nothing about actually having the insurance??? :confused

Regardless, I'd be fairly comfortable myself with opting out after an official written approval.
You're correct that the law says that the LTCi must be "purchased." Exactly what meets that standard is not clear to me.

I doubt that any court will say that an attestation in the complete absence of a LTCi policy would be valid. Marseille07's concern about such a move being perjury seems warranted to me.
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chance
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by chance »

I am interpreting the legislation literally when they say "Have purchased a qualifying private long-term care insurance plan before Nov. 1, 2021." Purchased means payment has been made. I purchased a policy that involves life insurance with a LTC rider. The agent told me that once they process my first monthly payment a "binding receipt" is issued and that at that time I would be eligible to apply for an exemption through WA Cares - she said there is no need to wait until the policy is processed and underwriting is completed. Shortly after making the payment I received an email with the binding receipt. Here is some additional info about binding receipts:
Insuranceopedia wrote:A receipt is usually an acknowledgment of payment, but a binding receipt is different in that it acknowledges the role of the insurer: to provide coverage. This role will only be fulfilled on one condition: that the insured makes his or her first payment. Once this is done, the insurer commits to the coverage, even if it is still processing the official insurance contract. If the insured dies without having paid the entire amount to the insurance company, the insurer is still obliged to provide coverage, even if it is limited in scope.
WoW2012
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by WoW2012 »

willthrill81 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:47 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:52 pm
davibi02 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:51 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:08 pm Buying an insurance policy from an insurance company with the intent to cancel it after a few months defrauds the agent and the company.
You could make an argument it's immoral or unethical, but it's certainly not fraud.
I didn't say, "fraud". I said "defraud". There's a difference.
Defraud is a verb, while fraud is a noun. Beyond that, they refer to the same concept.

Merriam-Webster
defraud: to deprive of something by deception or fraud
Collins Dictionary
If someone defrauds you, they take something away from you or stop you from getting what belongs to you by means of tricks and lies.
Dictionary.com
defraud: to deprive of a right, money, or property by fraud
Legal-Dictionary
defraud: to use deceit, falsehoods, or trickery to obtain money, an object, rights or anything of value belonging to another
etc.

Thank you for sharing those definitions.
They prove my point.
Defraud is the correct word to use in this case.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
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willthrill81
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by willthrill81 »

WoW2012 wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:33 am
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:47 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:52 pm
davibi02 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:51 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:08 pm Buying an insurance policy from an insurance company with the intent to cancel it after a few months defrauds the agent and the company.
You could make an argument it's immoral or unethical, but it's certainly not fraud.
I didn't say, "fraud". I said "defraud". There's a difference.
Defraud is a verb, while fraud is a noun. Beyond that, they refer to the same concept.

Merriam-Webster
defraud: to deprive of something by deception or fraud
Collins Dictionary
If someone defrauds you, they take something away from you or stop you from getting what belongs to you by means of tricks and lies.
Dictionary.com
defraud: to deprive of a right, money, or property by fraud
Legal-Dictionary
defraud: to use deceit, falsehoods, or trickery to obtain money, an object, rights or anything of value belonging to another
etc.

Thank you for sharing those definitions.
They prove my point.
Defraud is the correct word to use in this case.
What trick or deception do you believe that people who only hold a policy for a matter of a few months are using?
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by LadyGeek »

The discussion is getting derailed on ethical issues of cancelling a policy. For the record, discussions of dishonest behavior or bypassing the law are totally unacceptable.

The intent is to understand how to do this within the existing legal framework; in which case this discussion can continue.

Everything is a matter of degree. The choice of using a tax deferred account, e.g. IRA, to avoid taxes during some period of time is one extreme, managing assets to qualify for Medicaid is the other. Gifting assets to avoid taxes is somewhere in the middle. The bottom line is to work within the legal framework. Ethics is the ever present elephant in the room.

The approach is to educate members on how to do things legally. State your points in a factual manner. If the intent strays from this objective, please report the post and we'll investigate.
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by StoopieHippo »

Isabelle77 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:28 pm
StoopieHippo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:10 pm My husband (43yo) just got notified of his approval. He applied about an hour after I (35yo) did on Saturday morning. My application still only says submitted. :( Maybe it's due to my age?
My husband is still waiting and he also applied Saturday morning. He's 45 and has had the policy in place since the summer. So who knows?
I was approved yesterday :) Hopefully his will come soon too!
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by willthrill81 »

When I log into Secure Access Washington, one of the 'services' listed is the 'Paid Family and Medical Leave...' service from the ESD. When I click on that, it takes me to a page where I can create an account, but I've already created a 'WA Cares Exemption', and when I've tried to do so again, the system tells me that an account has already been created. So I cannot see the status of my application, which I submitted last Saturday. I don't know whether I can log in to an exemption account, if such a thing actually exists. Can anyone assist with this?
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by pasadena »

willthrill81 wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:14 pm When I log into Secure Access Washington, one of the 'services' listed is the 'Paid Family and Medical Leave...' service from the ESD. When I click on that, it takes me to a page where I can create an account, but I've already created a 'WA Cares Exemption', and when I've tried to do so again, the system tells me that an account has already been created. So I cannot see the status of my application, which I submitted last Saturday. I don't know whether I can log in to an exemption account, if such a thing actually exists. Can anyone assist with this?
Is this what you see?

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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by pasadena »

StoopieHippo wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:23 am
Isabelle77 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:28 pm
StoopieHippo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:10 pm My husband (43yo) just got notified of his approval. He applied about an hour after I (35yo) did on Saturday morning. My application still only says submitted. :( Maybe it's due to my age?
My husband is still waiting and he also applied Saturday morning. He's 45 and has had the policy in place since the summer. So who knows?
I was approved yesterday :) Hopefully his will come soon too!
Mine was also approved either yesterday or today, but I didn't get an email.
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by czaj »

willthrill81 wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:14 pm When I log into Secure Access Washington, one of the 'services' listed is the 'Paid Family and Medical Leave...' service from the ESD. When I click on that, it takes me to a page where I can create an account, but I've already created a 'WA Cares Exemption', and when I've tried to do so again, the system tells me that an account has already been created. So I cannot see the status of my application, which I submitted last Saturday. I don't know whether I can log in to an exemption account, if such a thing actually exists. Can anyone assist with this?
After clicking the PFML service, It should show your name under the WA Cares Exemption Account. Do you have the "Add/Switch Account" in the upper right? Try clicking that and that should take you to the page you're looking for.
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by czaj »

willthrill81 wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:14 pm When I log into Secure Access Washington, one of the 'services' listed is the 'Paid Family and Medical Leave...' service from the ESD. When I click on that, it takes me to a page where I can create an account, but I've already created a 'WA Cares Exemption', and when I've tried to do so again, the system tells me that an account has already been created. So I cannot see the status of my application, which I submitted last Saturday. I don't know whether I can log in to an exemption account, if such a thing actually exists. Can anyone assist with this?
My second guess is that they're approving your application as we speak and there is a temporary glitch on your account.
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by EnerJi »

Marseille07 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:39 pm
How can I attest that I've purchased LTCi without...purchasing? Wouldn't that be considered perjury?
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:03 pm
You're correct that the law says that the LTCi must be "purchased." Exactly what meets that standard is not clear to me.

I doubt that any court will say that an attestation in the complete absence of a LTCi policy would be valid. Marseille07's concern about such a move being perjury seems warranted to me.
I agree that attesting to something that is not true seems like asking for trouble and I'm certainly not suggesting anyone do that, I just thought the wording of the law is a bit odd. But again, not a lawyer, so perhaps the language is not unusual.

The law does say that the department will create regulations, so we need to also consider what regulations have been (or will be) created.
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by Ben Mathew »

willthrill81 wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:14 pm When I log into Secure Access Washington, one of the 'services' listed is the 'Paid Family and Medical Leave...' service from the ESD. When I click on that, it takes me to a page where I can create an account, but I've already created a 'WA Cares Exemption', and when I've tried to do so again, the system tells me that an account has already been created. So I cannot see the status of my application, which I submitted last Saturday. I don't know whether I can log in to an exemption account, if such a thing actually exists. Can anyone assist with this?
After I log in, I get a screen similar to pasadena showing the services that I am currently enrolled in. One of these services is "Paid Family and Medical Leave." When I click on "access now" button next to it, it says:

You are now accessing Paid Family and Medical Leave provided by Employment Security Department. If you require assistance, the Paid Family and Medical Leave help desk can be reached at paidleave@esd.wa.gov or 833-717-2273.

I click continue, and it goes to the page showing the application status.
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by WoW2012 »

LadyGeek wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:01 am
Ethics is the ever present elephant in the room.


You're 100% correct, LadyGeek.

Buying an expensive suit, wearing it to the fancy party, and then returning it for a full refund isn’t illegal. But it does reveal something about that person's character.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by willthrill81 »

pasadena wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:26 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:14 pm When I log into Secure Access Washington, one of the 'services' listed is the 'Paid Family and Medical Leave...' service from the ESD. When I click on that, it takes me to a page where I can create an account, but I've already created a 'WA Cares Exemption', and when I've tried to do so again, the system tells me that an account has already been created. So I cannot see the status of my application, which I submitted last Saturday. I don't know whether I can log in to an exemption account, if such a thing actually exists. Can anyone assist with this?
Is this what you see?

Image
Yes. When I click on 'Access Now' and get redirected to the ESD page, the only choice in the main body is what type of account I want to create. There is no log in option, including in the upper right corner.
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by pasadena »

willthrill81 wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:46 pm
pasadena wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:26 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:14 pm When I log into Secure Access Washington, one of the 'services' listed is the 'Paid Family and Medical Leave...' service from the ESD. When I click on that, it takes me to a page where I can create an account, but I've already created a 'WA Cares Exemption', and when I've tried to do so again, the system tells me that an account has already been created. So I cannot see the status of my application, which I submitted last Saturday. I don't know whether I can log in to an exemption account, if such a thing actually exists. Can anyone assist with this?
Is this what you see?

Image
Yes. When I click on 'Access Now' and get redirected to the ESD page, the only choice in the main body is what type of account I want to create. There is no log in option, including in the upper right corner.
Are you sure you created the account under the same user name?
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by willthrill81 »

czaj wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:31 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:14 pm When I log into Secure Access Washington, one of the 'services' listed is the 'Paid Family and Medical Leave...' service from the ESD. When I click on that, it takes me to a page where I can create an account, but I've already created a 'WA Cares Exemption', and when I've tried to do so again, the system tells me that an account has already been created. So I cannot see the status of my application, which I submitted last Saturday. I don't know whether I can log in to an exemption account, if such a thing actually exists. Can anyone assist with this?
My second guess is that they're approving your application as we speak and there is a temporary glitch on your account.
I just got an email from saying that there's been a change to my status and to log in to my exemption account to see it, which I cannot do (or figure out how to do). They say that they will send me a letter regarding my status, so I'm sure that this means that the exemption has been approved.
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Re: Washington State Long Term Care Trust Act - 0.58% payroll tax - $36,500 lifetime maximum benefit

Post by willthrill81 »

pasadena wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:47 pm Are you sure you created the account under the same user name?
Yes. Since they have emailed me regarding a change in the status of my exemption request, I know that they have my information. I just cannot get to a log in screen for the exemption account.
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