Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

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Kaktus
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by Kaktus »

We are entering a technology shift. Already, combustion engine cars are getting taxed away in many countries and are not allowed at all in city centers, and so on. Also, the motorheads of today are getting older.I would not bet that the Porsche price hike until now will go on. I would bet the opposite. Still, this is your chance to appreciate a sports car. I am more into Ducati myself.
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FlatSix
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by FlatSix »

Plenty of reasonable advice here.

Looking forward to hearing an update from the OP.
Monk53
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by Monk53 »

If I bought a car as an investment, it would rarely if ever be driven. It would sit in a garage appreciating, hopefully. If I bought an older car, be it a muscle car, sports car, etc. it would be driven. I would have to have no issues hopping in it to go to the store. Cars are meant to be driven. If you can afford it, buy it as a driver, not as an investment. It will be more fun to have.
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by DSBH »

Can't. I would love to invest in my personal satisfaction with a 2021 911 Carrera as a daily driver - with the European delivery option of course -, but my wife rejected the idea for financial reasons.
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OnFire
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by OnFire »

I know this is an old thread, but I am have a new wrinkle.

My credit union will give me a 10 year note at 2.5% on a classic car with a certified appraisal.

It’s like free money.

This makes it a lot easier, which makes my decision easier.

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rebellovw
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by rebellovw »

I follow Bring A Trailer pretty closely - and that is likely the place I'd bid on one - lots of feedback and great info. Lots of good critics - IMS bearing etc.

I'm not sure how an appraisal would work in that case - unless the person putting up the car made one available.

But you do see lots of cars that sell on BAT and then come up for sale once again on BAT - interesting to see when the second time around if the person made a profit.
psteinx
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by psteinx »

OnFire wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:46 amMy credit union will give me a 10 year note at 2.5% on a classic car with a certified appraisal.
So, 2.5% interest (vs. 1.63% on a 10 year treasury) That's 0.9%.

I presume the interest is not deductible, so, depending on your tax bracket, that makes it something closer to 3.6%. So 2%.

Plus a certified appraisal. ($500?)

Plus storage (hard to estimate, but may squeeze your existing garage and/or require a garage upgrade, moving a daily driver to the driveway, or even renting storage off-site).

Plus insurance.

Plus maintenance.

Depreciation/appreciation is hard to estimate, but Porsche is still making plenty of 911s, and other makers make similar cars, while old 911s are only scrapped/totalled at a slow pace. Yes, collectible cars have been hot lately, but oftentimes what's popular in collectibles shifts over time.

If you want the car and can afford it, buy it. But I doubt it's "cheap" to hold - don't fool yourself...
plasticofantastico
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by plasticofantastico »

I have a 997.2 C2S Cab that I bought 7 years ago. Prior to that I had a 987.1 Cayman.

Lots of good info in this thread, i will just add that modern Porsche sports cars are dead reliable and easy to work on. The air cooled cars are simpler and more analog. If you know how to turn a wrench, you can do almost all of the work, and it should not be expensive to own. Oil changes, brake fluid changes, filters, plugs, drive belt, and tires. That’s about it, and you can do it all on jack stands with a minimal investment in tools.

I really like the backdated cars if they are done well. Have fun!
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OnFire
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by OnFire »

[Expletive removed by admin LadyGeek]. Looks like another car is on the horizon.
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PKD
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by PKD »

If you want to buy the car, buy the car. But it’s a toy, not an investment.

Drive it. Enjoy it. If you sell it later for a profit, even better.
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by BruDude »

My local bank had 12 month interest only HELOC at 1.99%, then 3.49% variable after that. (Almost) free money. Can the variable rate go up? Sure, but too good to pass up. I used it to buy a dream car that I expect to continue going up in value as they’re no longer made and have been rising for a while now even before covid. Will refinance to a regular auto loan after a year if needed. Have LTV under 40% so not worried about a market downturn.

Worst case scenario - lose $10-20k in value and face some expensive repairs.

Best case scenario - grinning ear to ear for pennies and selling it for more than I paid with no major repairs.

Taking my chances.
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by LadyGeek »

I removed an off-topic post. As a reminder, see: General Etiquette
At all times we must conduct ourselves in a respectful manner to other posters. Attacks on individuals, insults, name calling, trolling, baiting or other attempts to sow dissension are not acceptable.
Also, we maintain a "family friendly" environment - things you can say in front of the little ones. I removed a few words which were above this threshold.
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DesertGator
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by DesertGator »

Since these cars don't crash so well, and you and the wife like to drive fast, buy some extra life insurance too.
Johnny_Excitement
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by Johnny_Excitement »

rebellovw wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:00 pm I follow Bring A Trailer pretty closely - and that is likely the place I'd bid on one - lots of feedback and great info. Lots of good critics - IMS bearing etc.

I'm not sure how an appraisal would work in that case - unless the person putting up the car made one available.

But you do see lots of cars that sell on BAT and then come up for sale once again on BAT - interesting to see when the second time around if the person made a profit.
Bringatrailer.com is a great place to sell/auction a car but a lousy place to buy one. Prices are inflated there vs what you'd pay in a non-auction setting. It's especially bad with Porsche 911s. Bidding sometimes gets crazy within the last hour of the auction.
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by eucalyptus »

I suggest you ask this question on rennlist.com

IMO the special something the market wants and others here have referred to is usually missing from a clone. I can imagine unlikely scenarios in which a clone might have some value - Steve McQueen owned it, for example. That would make it golden. Otherwise, a clone has a limited market.

Is a Singer Porsche a clone? I'd say no.

In my memory - correct me if I'm wrong - collector car prices began to really soar roughly in the mid-oughts. You could buy an F40 for $450k. Cars like Ferrari 330GTCs, Daytonas, Dinos, could be bought for less than half their current values. No one cared about Porsche 964s, and even an old 911S, though recognized as special, wouldn't fetch anything like the $300k achieved by a recent BAT car. Every one of us who owned a collector car back then has a story about money left on the table, a car sold too soon. I think all this - and the current car shortage that has pushed up used car prices - has made gaming the car market seem even more attractive.

In almost every case, I believe, those of us who are not brokers/dealers/experts and who made money flipping cars in the past 15 years were lucky, nothing more.

As many others have said, buy the car for enjoyment. You're playing in deep waters against very knowledgeable people most of whom make their money as middlemen or consultants. RS clone/tribute cars are a dime a dozen.
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Harry Livermore
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by Harry Livermore »

Johnny_Excitement wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:41 am
Bringatrailer.com is a great place to sell/auction a car but a lousy place to buy one. Prices are inflated there vs what you'd pay in a non-auction setting. It's especially bad with Porsche 911s. Bidding sometimes gets crazy within the last hour of the auction.
I agree with this. As a mere spectator, I watch the auctions on BaT. The ending prices are often much higher than listed and sold prices on other enthusiast websites. Magic if you're a seller. Maybe not so much as a buyer. That said, the Q&A as the auction proceeds is very valuable and interesting.
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Somethingwitty92912
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by Somethingwitty92912 »

The first issue I take is, how you are butchering the English language to perform mental gymnastics for justification of entertainment spending.

It comes out of the entertainment budget because that’s what this is, period. Full stop. Don’t lie to yourself, what’s next a boat “investment.”
mikejuss
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by mikejuss »

OP, what is your net worth?
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OnFire
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by OnFire »

My net worth, with my dentist wife included, (combined net worth - marriage is stable) was calculated as a bit past $1M six months ago. With the recent run-up in property values and the market, you could probably add ten percent to that.

Personally, without my wife, my met worth is closer to $500-600k, but I also have a pension that vests in four years, that will be worth a minimum of $55k a year. With any luck, I will get promoted to Lt. within 4 years and when I retire in 8 years, my pension would be $78k a year.

To all the pension haters, I’ve been on my fire department for 16 years, and we have had 14 line-of-duty deaths, including two close friends. There are just under 5,000 of us.
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by mikejuss »

OnFire wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:41 am My net worth, with my dentist wife included, (combined net worth - marriage is stable) was calculated as a bit past $1M six months ago. With the recent run-up in property values and the market, you could probably add ten percent to that.

Personally, without my wife, my met worth is closer to $500-600k, but I also have a pension that vests in four years, that will be worth a minimum of $55k a year. With any luck, I will get promoted to Lt. within 4 years and when I retire in 8 years, my pension would be $78k a year.

To all the pension haters, I’ve been on my fire department for 16 years, and we have had 14 line-of-duty deaths, including two close friends. There are just under 5,000 of us.
Given your net worth, I'm really skeptical that you should buy this car. I think you might be experiencing the irrational exuberance of a super-hot market. I can't imagine that there are any "pension haters" here; I personally wish I had a pension.
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Tattarrattat
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by Tattarrattat »

Seems like there is a jumbling of different issues. The car is a luxury expense, like a boat or a fancy vacation, etc. Is it fiscally prudent? No. Is it a wise long term financial move to spend that big a chunk of your net worth on a car? No. Does this have anything to do with market valuations or the recent market run up? No.

So should you buy the car? Well, it's your life. It's an expensive hobby. Up to you whether it's worth it. Up to you to decide what other sacrifices you will have to make to afford that car. But that's a personal decision to do with values, not related to how the markets are doing. I'm sure if you posted on a car forum, they would tell you to go for it. The only reason to ask this forum is to be talked out of it.
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by mikejuss »

Tattarrattat wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:08 pm Seems like there is a jumbling of different issues. The car is a luxury expense, like a boat or a fancy vacation, etc. Is it fiscally prudent? No. Is it a wise long term financial move to spend that big a chunk of your net worth on a car? No. Does this have anything to do with market valuations or the recent market run up? No.

So should you buy the car? Well, it's your life. It's an expensive hobby. Up to you whether it's worth it. Up to you to decide what other sacrifices you will have to make to afford that car. But that's a personal decision to do with values, not related to how the markets are doing. I'm sure if you posted on a car forum, they would tell you to go for it. The only reason to ask this forum is to be talked out of it.
I'm going to defer from you on the question of this being related to market valuations: if one were under the assumption that the price of the car would simply be replaced in one's portfolio by a rising market over, say, the next year, one might find purchasing it much more appealing than otherwise.
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MMiroir
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by MMiroir »

OnFire wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:41 am My net worth, with my dentist wife included, (combined net worth - marriage is stable) was calculated as a bit past $1M six months ago. With the recent run-up in property values and the market, you could probably add ten percent to that.

Personally, without my wife, my met worth is closer to $500-600k, but I also have a pension that vests in four years, that will be worth a minimum of $55k a year. With any luck, I will get promoted to Lt. within 4 years and when I retire in 8 years, my pension would be $78k a year.

To all the pension haters, I’ve been on my fire department for 16 years, and we have had 14 line-of-duty deaths, including two close friends. There are just under 5,000 of us.
I would definitely buy a car, but $85K on a modified 911 is a stretch based on your financials. Frankly, you can have just as much fun and go just as fast with a stock used Boxster, and $30,000 will buy a heck of a lot of Boxster or even a Cayman.
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Doom&Gloom
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by Doom&Gloom »

If buying one is a good idea, why not get two?
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OnFire
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by OnFire »

I went the cheap Boxster route five years ago. I drove it 150 miles and the engine blew up. Right now, the window won’t go down, and neither will the top. I just spent $1,800 to have the coolant system fixed, and it’s STILL not right. I’m done with cheap, modern, and complicated Porsches.

IMO, the car in Minnesota is priced right, and won’t go down much in value.
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Wanderingwheelz
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

OnFire wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:41 pm I went the cheap Boxster route five years ago. I drove it 150 miles and the engine blew up. Right now, the window won’t go down, and neither will the top. I just spent $1,800 to have the coolant system fixed, and it’s STILL not right. I’m done with cheap, modern, and complicated Porsches.

IMO, the car in Minnesota is priced right, and won’t go down much in value.
Buying a relatively inexpensive Boxster is the way to go IMHO. I’ve owned several Porsche sports cars and the ones that end up being to most fun for me are the “drivers”. The ones that ever little micro scratch or stone chip doesn’t bug me. In fact, the last one I owned was sold mainly because the dealer botched the paint from a simple hand wash after a routine service visit. I’ve never seen swirl marks left on a black car quite like that guy did. It was epic.

Anyway, good luck owning your Porsche as an investment. I’d far rather drive mine and not worry about whether or not the value is going up or down.
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barnaclebob
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by barnaclebob »

Somethingwitty92912 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:40 am Don’t lie to yourself, what’s next a boat “investment.”
Given the boat market these days its not too much of a stretch. Ive got about $20k into my boat and could probably sell it in the high 20s. Bought in May 2020. But yeah its a toy, not an investment.
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by Somethingwitty92912 »

barnaclebob wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:53 pm
Somethingwitty92912 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:40 am Don’t lie to yourself, what’s next a boat “investment.”
Given the boat market these days its not too much of a stretch. Ive got about $20k into my boat and could probably sell it in the high 20s. Bought in May 2020. But yeah its a toy, not an investment.
Did you factor In your maintenance and storage costs?
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by rebellovw »

Johnny_Excitement wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:41 am
rebellovw wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:00 pm I follow Bring A Trailer pretty closely - and that is likely the place I'd bid on one - lots of feedback and great info. Lots of good critics - IMS bearing etc.

I'm not sure how an appraisal would work in that case - unless the person putting up the car made one available.

But you do see lots of cars that sell on BAT and then come up for sale once again on BAT - interesting to see when the second time around if the person made a profit.
Bringatrailer.com is a great place to sell/auction a car but a lousy place to buy one. Prices are inflated there vs what you'd pay in a non-auction setting. It's especially bad with Porsche 911s. Bidding sometimes gets crazy within the last hour of the auction.
That is typical of any auction. I'm not sure about the prices - they could be high - I do see GT350's go for 40's and 50's which definitely seems correct.

It is fun to watch and you can at least gauge what 911 brings in the $$. GT2 GT3 baby with a stick - settle for nothing less.
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by ClaycordJCA »

My father-in-law purchased a brand new 2003 anniversary edition corvette. 3 weeks after he bought it, a kid slammed his car into the corvette while it was parked on the street in front of the restaurant they had driven to. The corvette was repaired, but the accident showed up on its Carfax report and the resale value plummeted. Unless you intend to keep the car in a museum, I wouldn’t consider it any kind of sound investment. All it takes is one careless kid to forever diminish your investment’s value.
Johnny_Excitement
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by Johnny_Excitement »

rebellovw wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:59 pm
Johnny_Excitement wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:41 am
rebellovw wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:00 pm I follow Bring A Trailer pretty closely - and that is likely the place I'd bid on one - lots of feedback and great info. Lots of good critics - IMS bearing etc.

I'm not sure how an appraisal would work in that case - unless the person putting up the car made one available.

But you do see lots of cars that sell on BAT and then come up for sale once again on BAT - interesting to see when the second time around if the person made a profit.
Bringatrailer.com is a great place to sell/auction a car but a lousy place to buy one. Prices are inflated there vs what you'd pay in a non-auction setting. It's especially bad with Porsche 911s. Bidding sometimes gets crazy within the last hour of the auction.
That is typical of any auction. I'm not sure about the prices - they could be high - I do see GT350's go for 40's and 50's which definitely seems correct.

It is fun to watch and you can at least gauge what 911 brings in the $$. GT2 GT3 baby with a stick - settle for nothing less.
GT350s are regularly selling for 50s-60s there. GT350Rs are going for 60-70s there. Yesterday, a 31-mile GT350R sold for $105K!

I own a GT350R and while it's a great car, I'd never pay six figures for one. That's Porsche GT4 territory!
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by BogleFan510 »

removed by author

Good luck.
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BV3273
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by BV3273 »

Clone/tribute = never worth as much as the real thing.

Don’t do it.
mnnice
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by mnnice »

I know nothing about sports cars, but I challenge the assertion that your pension is 99.99% a sure thing.

Your state of residence public pension is way underfunded and consumes close to 30% of the state budget. I am not going to say too much more as it is conjecture on my part. Just don’t count your chickens before they hatch.
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midareff
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by midareff »

The vehicle is not authentic, it is a collection of parts from other Porsches reassembled. If it's worth it to you as a toy that's one thing. As a collector's car, not.
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by snackdog »

How did the investment work out? 911 prices seems unstable lately with some big drops on Bringatrailer.
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Re: Talk me out of buying a car as an investment....

Post by JackoC »

London wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:21 am
Shallowpockets wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:23 am 49 years old. A sports car. Sounds like a mid life crisis. Paper profits. Itching to spend that money by rationalizing.
What are you getting the wife, the passenger seat? Wow!
I think buying this car is a bad idea but I don’t subscribe to the idea that any fun purchase over the age of 49 is a midlife crisis. That’s a tired take. If you can afford something fun, why live like a monk after 40?
I agree, that dig 'midlife crisis' about performance cars is if anything the wrong way around since the people throwing it would almost all condemn spending money on them when much younger. They'd tell the younger person 'you're not set in your investments yet' or 'what if you encounter prolonged health issues or unemployment', which are in fairness real points. But if future uncertainty means you 'can't afford it' when young, then once you can afford it 'you are making an old fool of yourself' to get it, why are you saving for any more than subsistence level? Maybe to 'buy experiences not things' (IOW buy what I'm interested in, not what you're interested in, cuz what I'm interested in is better :happy ).

That said used 911's purchased wisely can be cheaper than they might appear, but counting on them as 'investments' as in positive real expected return, with free driving pleasure on the side, not so realistic. I agree with almost all other opinions on the thread about that. And 'tribute' rather than totally real one, the more so.
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TinyHouse
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Re: Talk me out of buying a car as an investment....

Post by TinyHouse »

BruDude wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:21 am I have owned four 911's and made money on two of the first three that i sold. The third one I lost $1,000 on a $150k car after driving it for 14 months. Cheaper than owning a Hyundai. If you know what you are buying, 911's pretty much forever hold their value. 996, 997, and 991's are all selling for more than they were 3 years ago. I don't know much about this particular version, but if you have done your research and feel confident go for it. You can drive it for a while, have some fun, then sell it for what you paid for it. I doubt the value will go up much if it's a replica/built car though. If you want a car that will go up in value, get yourself a 997.2. That market is up 20-30% this year alone and has been appreciating for about 4 years now. It's also an incredibly fun car to drive, relatively cheap to maintain, and the last of the "analog" sports cars. IMO, the demand for analog sports cars will continue driving up prices for years to come. They don't make them like they used to.
I bet the insurance and maintenance was the same as a Hyundai too right? :mrgreen:

Remember to look at total cost of ownership when considering the asset/toy/tool.

What were Porsches values like in 2008? If you are holding it forever, it can go up, but the total cost of ownership digs deeply into the actual profits of your speculation buy. If we are moving into a recession, Porsches might be the first thing people want to sell, meaning it won’t hold value, but when people have money everybody wants one
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Re: Talk me out of buying a car as an investment....

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

TinyHouse wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:43 am
BruDude wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:21 am I have owned four 911's and made money on two of the first three that i sold. The third one I lost $1,000 on a $150k car after driving it for 14 months. Cheaper than owning a Hyundai. If you know what you are buying, 911's pretty much forever hold their value. 996, 997, and 991's are all selling for more than they were 3 years ago. I don't know much about this particular version, but if you have done your research and feel confident go for it. You can drive it for a while, have some fun, then sell it for what you paid for it. I doubt the value will go up much if it's a replica/built car though. If you want a car that will go up in value, get yourself a 997.2. That market is up 20-30% this year alone and has been appreciating for about 4 years now. It's also an incredibly fun car to drive, relatively cheap to maintain, and the last of the "analog" sports cars. IMO, the demand for analog sports cars will continue driving up prices for years to come. They don't make them like they used to.
I bet the insurance and maintenance was the same as a Hyundai too right? :mrgreen:

Remember to look at total cost of ownership when considering the asset.

What were Porsches values like in 2008? If you are holding it forever, it can go up, but the total cost of ownership digs deeply into the actual profits of your speculation buy. If we are moving into a recession, Porsches might be the first thing people want to sell, meaning it won’t hold value, but when people have money everybody wants one
You’d be surprised how low insurance on a 911 can be. Also, most maintenance/repairs is covered under warranty. Oil changes at an indie shop aren’t too bad.
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TinyHouse
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Re: Talk me out of buying a car as an investment....

Post by TinyHouse »

Wanderingwheelz wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:47 am
TinyHouse wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:43 am
BruDude wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:21 am I have owned four 911's and made money on two of the first three that i sold. The third one I lost $1,000 on a $150k car after driving it for 14 months. Cheaper than owning a Hyundai. If you know what you are buying, 911's pretty much forever hold their value. 996, 997, and 991's are all selling for more than they were 3 years ago. I don't know much about this particular version, but if you have done your research and feel confident go for it. You can drive it for a while, have some fun, then sell it for what you paid for it. I doubt the value will go up much if it's a replica/built car though. If you want a car that will go up in value, get yourself a 997.2. That market is up 20-30% this year alone and has been appreciating for about 4 years now. It's also an incredibly fun car to drive, relatively cheap to maintain, and the last of the "analog" sports cars. IMO, the demand for analog sports cars will continue driving up prices for years to come. They don't make them like they used to.
I bet the insurance and maintenance was the same as a Hyundai too right? :mrgreen:

Remember to look at total cost of ownership when considering the asset.

What were Porsches values like in 2008? If you are holding it forever, it can go up, but the total cost of ownership digs deeply into the actual profits of your speculation buy. If we are moving into a recession, Porsches might be the first thing people want to sell, meaning it won’t hold value, but when people have money everybody wants one
You’d be surprised how low insurance on a 911 can be. Also, most maintenance/repairs is covered under warranty. Oil changes at an indie shop aren’t too bad.
I drive an old retro German car, and my insurance is <$300 a year. $3000 a year is a lot more. When considering the investment perspective, that’s like a nasty expense ratio. And I know guys who have spent $3,000 at the indie shop just getting brakes and a squeak to go away. The new ones are tough to work on, but I do all the work on my old one.

https://www.valuepenguin.com/porsche-car-insurance

Again, this isn’t an investment, it’s a hobby and speculation. Put it in the right category, and do whatever you want.
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Re: Talk me out of buying a car as an investment....

Post by BruDude »

TinyHouse wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:43 am
BruDude wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:21 am I have owned four 911's and made money on two of the first three that i sold. The third one I lost $1,000 on a $150k car after driving it for 14 months. Cheaper than owning a Hyundai. If you know what you are buying, 911's pretty much forever hold their value. 996, 997, and 991's are all selling for more than they were 3 years ago. I don't know much about this particular version, but if you have done your research and feel confident go for it. You can drive it for a while, have some fun, then sell it for what you paid for it. I doubt the value will go up much if it's a replica/built car though. If you want a car that will go up in value, get yourself a 997.2. That market is up 20-30% this year alone and has been appreciating for about 4 years now. It's also an incredibly fun car to drive, relatively cheap to maintain, and the last of the "analog" sports cars. IMO, the demand for analog sports cars will continue driving up prices for years to come. They don't make them like they used to.
I bet the insurance and maintenance was the same as a Hyundai too right? :mrgreen:

Remember to look at total cost of ownership when considering the asset/toy/tool.

What were Porsches values like in 2008? If you are holding it forever, it can go up, but the total cost of ownership digs deeply into the actual profits of your speculation buy. If we are moving into a recession, Porsches might be the first thing people want to sell, meaning it won’t hold value, but when people have money everybody wants one
Insurance on a 911 has been cheaper than many other “regular” cars I’ve had and there’s no significant difference in cost that I’ve ever seen. The insurance cost on my Ferrari is about the same as my Jeep believe it or not.

Maintenance on a 911 isn’t bad. $150 oil change once a year. The four year major service is about $1200 at an Indy. Brakes and tires are obviously more expensive than a Hyundai but if you can afford a 911 the cost of consumables shouldn’t really be a consideration.

All said and done I have nothing but great things to say about Porsche after having owned 7 of them - incredibly reliable, amazing driver’s cars, and best in the industry value retention.

Porsche does a better job than any other manufacturer of differentiating the generations of cars while staying true to the heritage but making them different enough that each generation has its own niche/following to maximize demand. They’re also far better at building brand loyalty than any other manufacturer and it’s not even close IMO.
Last edited by BruDude on Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
MMiroir
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Re: Talk me out of buying a car as an investment....

Post by MMiroir »

TinyHouse wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:51 am
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:47 am
TinyHouse wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:43 am
BruDude wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:21 am I have owned four 911's and made money on two of the first three that i sold. The third one I lost $1,000 on a $150k car after driving it for 14 months. Cheaper than owning a Hyundai. If you know what you are buying, 911's pretty much forever hold their value. 996, 997, and 991's are all selling for more than they were 3 years ago. I don't know much about this particular version, but if you have done your research and feel confident go for it. You can drive it for a while, have some fun, then sell it for what you paid for it. I doubt the value will go up much if it's a replica/built car though. If you want a car that will go up in value, get yourself a 997.2. That market is up 20-30% this year alone and has been appreciating for about 4 years now. It's also an incredibly fun car to drive, relatively cheap to maintain, and the last of the "analog" sports cars. IMO, the demand for analog sports cars will continue driving up prices for years to come. They don't make them like they used to.
I bet the insurance and maintenance was the same as a Hyundai too right? :mrgreen:

Remember to look at total cost of ownership when considering the asset.

What were Porsches values like in 2008? If you are holding it forever, it can go up, but the total cost of ownership digs deeply into the actual profits of your speculation buy. If we are moving into a recession, Porsches might be the first thing people want to sell, meaning it won’t hold value, but when people have money everybody wants one
You’d be surprised how low insurance on a 911 can be. Also, most maintenance/repairs is covered under warranty. Oil changes at an indie shop aren’t too bad.
I drive an old retro German car, and my insurance is <$300 a year. $3000 a year is a lot more. When considering the investment perspective, that’s like a nasty expense ratio. And I know guys who have spent $3,000 at the indie shop just getting brakes and a squeak to go away. The new ones are tough to work on, but I do all the work on my old one.

https://www.valuepenguin.com/porsche-car-insurance

Again, this isn’t an investment, it’s a hobby and speculation. Put it in the right category, and do whatever you want.
I prefer Italian retro cars to German, but if you buy the right car, the maintenance costs are quite low, and values have increased over my time of ownership.
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by A'sBud »

Do you really have enough money to blow that dough? Only you can decide. I'd want at least 2.5x your current NW (given your wife's profession/potential income, your income, pension, rental property & your ages). That's me though - not you. Consider your income, consider your current NW. Are you where you want to be? Perhaps you wait a year or two and re-evaluate it, given your concern about the heated market. etc. Either way, this one purchase won't make or break you, it's your over-all pattern of saving, investing and spending that will. Best of luck.
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Re: Talk me out of buying a car as an investment....

Post by snackdog »

BruDude wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:49 am ..,. They’re also far better at building brand loyalty than any other manufacturer and it’s not even close IMO.
As of 2021 Porsche lagged Toyota, Lexus, Honda, and even RAM for brand loyalty. But still not bad considering how many people just buy them for appearances then realize how impractical they are.
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Re: Talk me out of buying a car as an investment....

Post by TinyHouse »

MMiroir wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:52 am I prefer Italian retro cars to German, but if you buy the right car, the maintenance costs are quite low, and values have increased over my time of ownership.
We all know that the price you paid might be lower than what the price you can sell for down the line, but again, not an investment, or at least not a good one, considering total cost of ownership. However, if you are flipping the cars or refurbishing them, that’s a little bit of a different game. OP, sounded like he was gonna buy new(ish)
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Re: Talk me out of buying a car as an investment....

Post by TinyHouse »

BruDude wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:49 am
TinyHouse wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:43 am
BruDude wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:21 am I have owned four 911's and made money on two of the first three that i sold. The third one I lost $1,000 on a $150k car after driving it for 14 months. Cheaper than owning a Hyundai. If you know what you are buying, 911's pretty much forever hold their value. 996, 997, and 991's are all selling for more than they were 3 years ago. I don't know much about this particular version, but if you have done your research and feel confident go for it. You can drive it for a while, have some fun, then sell it for what you paid for it. I doubt the value will go up much if it's a replica/built car though. If you want a car that will go up in value, get yourself a 997.2. That market is up 20-30% this year alone and has been appreciating for about 4 years now. It's also an incredibly fun car to drive, relatively cheap to maintain, and the last of the "analog" sports cars. IMO, the demand for analog sports cars will continue driving up prices for years to come. They don't make them like they used to.
I bet the insurance and maintenance was the same as a Hyundai too right? :mrgreen:

Remember to look at total cost of ownership when considering the asset/toy/tool.

What were Porsches values like in 2008? If you are holding it forever, it can go up, but the total cost of ownership digs deeply into the actual profits of your speculation buy. If we are moving into a recession, Porsches might be the first thing people want to sell, meaning it won’t hold value, but when people have money everybody wants one
Insurance on a 911 has been cheaper than many other “regular” cars I’ve had and there’s no significant difference in cost that I’ve ever seen. The insurance cost on my Ferrari is about the same as my Jeep believe it or not.

Maintenance on a 911 isn’t bad. $150 oil change once a year. The four year major service is about $1200 at an Indy. Brakes and tires are obviously more expensive than a Hyundai but if you can afford a 911 the cost of consumables shouldn’t really be a consideration.

All said and done I have nothing but great things to say about Porsche after having owned 7 of them - incredibly reliable, amazing driver’s cars, and best in the industry value retention.

Porsche does a better job than any other manufacturer of differentiating the generations of cars while staying true to the heritage but making them different enough that each generation has its own niche/following to maximize demand. They’re also far better at building brand loyalty than any other manufacturer and it’s not even close IMO.
I’m super familiar with Porsches and we’ve owned a few, and my uncle has a sweet 69 911. Again, my comment was about total cost of ownership and that this isn’t an investment, even if it might be a great car to drive and own, and good value
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Porsche 911 as an investment....

Post by Malum Prohibitum »

snackdog wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:06 pm How did the investment work out? 911 prices seems unstable lately with some big drops on Bringatrailer.
I was hoping for an update from OnFire
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Re: Talk me out of buying a car as an investment....

Post by JackoC »

snackdog wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:22 pm
BruDude wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:49 am ..,. They’re also far better at building brand loyalty than any other manufacturer and it’s not even close IMO.
As of 2021 Porsche lagged Toyota, Lexus, Honda, and even RAM for brand loyalty. But still not bad considering how many people just buy them for appearances then realize how impractical they are.
Probably depends what rating you look at. Consumer Reports Owner Satisfaction rating by brand* a/o Feb 2022 had Porsche second, and among the ones you mentioned only Ram was also pretty high, Toyota, Lexus and Honda middle of the pack. First was Tesla, which I think also suggests the relatively limited value of 'objective' measures like this. Tesla obviously has a lot of fans, who don't care that CR also found Tesla 2nd most unreliable brand of 28 (Lincoln was worst, Porsche 13th), and personally Tesla isn't my cup of tea even without the reliability/quality issues. My mind isn't changed on that by CR satisfaction result. I guess much the same for Porsche among those it wouldn't appeal to anyway. Plus any general rating of Porsche now is going to mainly reflect their SUV's, bulk of their sales and not same customer base as the sports cars (full disclosure I have a 2022 Macan S I like so far; I could be a customer for Cayman/911 but yeah practicality, not cost or 'you can't use the performance', I would :happy , but room for stuff and livability on very long road trips which are main use of our nicer car and where BMW M2 came up a bit short though bigger than Porsche sports cars; if I did my fun road driving mainly near our house a Cayman/911 plus our old Lexus SUV would work).

So it probably comes back around to the tautology that people who are really into 911's are really into 911's. And it's probably not that relevant to them if some other people buy a 911 for some reason other than what 911 fans love about 911's or buy one thinking it's something it's not. And Tesla's or Ram's wouldn't have much to do with it either (though the 911 fans might also like those vehicles; I like my cushy Lexus, liked my non-cushy M2, like my sporty/cushy Macan, I very much doubt I'd end up disliking a 911 either, but maybe I'm too easy to please :happy )

*You might have to be logged in to a CR account to see this, not sure:
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-rel ... 291429338/
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Re: Talk me out of buying a car as an investment....

Post by snackdog »

JackoC wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:54 pm
snackdog wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:22 pm
BruDude wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:49 am ..,. They’re also far better at building brand loyalty than any other manufacturer and it’s not even close IMO.
As of 2021 Porsche lagged Toyota, Lexus, Honda, and even RAM for brand loyalty. But still not bad considering how many people just buy them for appearances then realize how impractical they are.
Probably depends what rating you look at. Consumer Reports Owner Satisfaction rating by brand* a/o Feb 2022 had Porsche second, and among the ones you mentioned only Ram was also pretty high, Toyota, Lexus and Honda middle of the pack. First was Tesla, which I think also suggests the relatively limited value of 'objective' measures like this. Tesla obviously has a lot of fans, who don't care that CR also found Tesla 2nd most unreliable brand of 28 (Lincoln was worst, Porsche 13th), and personally Tesla isn't my cup of tea even without the reliability/quality issues. My mind isn't changed on that by CR satisfaction result. I guess much the same for Porsche among those it wouldn't appeal to anyway. Plus any general rating of Porsche now is going to mainly reflect their SUV's, bulk of their sales and not same customer base as the sports cars (full disclosure I have a 2022 Macan S I like so far; I could be a customer for Cayman/911 but yeah practicality, not cost or 'you can't use the performance', I would :happy , but room for stuff and livability on very long road trips which are main use of our nicer car and where BMW M2 came up a bit short though bigger than Porsche sports cars; if I did my fun road driving mainly near our house a Cayman/911 plus our old Lexus SUV would work).

So it probably comes back around to the tautology that people who are really into 911's are really into 911's. And it's probably not that relevant to them if some other people buy a 911 for some reason other than what 911 fans love about 911's or buy one thinking it's something it's not. And Tesla's or Ram's wouldn't have much to do with it either (though the 911 fans might also like those vehicles; I like my cushy Lexus, liked my non-cushy M2, like my sporty/cushy Macan, I very much doubt I'd end up disliking a 911 either, but maybe I'm too easy to please :happy )
Customer Satisfaction is important but we were talking about brand loyalty, which means repeat purchases.

https://www.jdpower.com/business/press- ... lty-study
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Re: Talk me out of buying a car as an investment....

Post by JackoC »

snackdog wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:50 pm
JackoC wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:54 pm
snackdog wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:22 pm
BruDude wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:49 am ..,. They’re also far better at building brand loyalty than any other manufacturer and it’s not even close IMO.
As of 2021 Porsche lagged Toyota, Lexus, Honda, and even RAM for brand loyalty. But still not bad considering how many people just buy them for appearances then realize how impractical they are.
Probably depends what rating you look at. Consumer Reports Owner Satisfaction rating by brand* a/o Feb 2022 had Porsche second, and among the ones you mentioned only Ram was also pretty high, Toyota, Lexus and Honda middle of the pack. First was Tesla, which I think also suggests the relatively limited value of 'objective' measures like this. Tesla obviously has a lot of fans, who don't care that CR also found Tesla 2nd most unreliable brand of 28 (Lincoln was worst, Porsche 13th), and personally Tesla isn't my cup of tea even without the reliability/quality issues. My mind isn't changed on that by CR satisfaction result. I guess much the same for Porsche among those it wouldn't appeal to anyway. Plus any general rating of Porsche now is going to mainly reflect their SUV's, bulk of their sales and not same customer base as the sports cars (full disclosure I have a 2022 Macan S I like so far; I could be a customer for Cayman/911 but yeah practicality, not cost or 'you can't use the performance', I would :happy , but room for stuff and livability on very long road trips which are main use of our nicer car and where BMW M2 came up a bit short though bigger than Porsche sports cars; if I did my fun road driving mainly near our house a Cayman/911 plus our old Lexus SUV would work).

So it probably comes back around to the tautology that people who are really into 911's are really into 911's. And it's probably not that relevant to them if some other people buy a 911 for some reason other than what 911 fans love about 911's or buy one thinking it's something it's not. And Tesla's or Ram's wouldn't have much to do with it either (though the 911 fans might also like those vehicles; I like my cushy Lexus, liked my non-cushy M2, like my sporty/cushy Macan, I very much doubt I'd end up disliking a 911 either, but maybe I'm too easy to please :happy )
Customer Satisfaction is important but we were talking about brand loyalty, which means repeat purchases.

https://www.jdpower.com/business/press- ... lty-study
Yeah that is the term you and previous poster both used a) not sure the distinction between that and 'customer satisfaction' is that important, unlikely IMO if you have CR and JDP study 'brand loyalty' and 'customer satisfaction' they'd come up with similar results for each and b) I don't view JD Power as a source to rely on heavily. Not to say you can't pay attention to it, and it's good you specified what you meant earlier. But bottom line I'm 100% sure the 'brand loyalty' of Ram has nothing to do with whether I'd buy a Porsche and I doubt it has for almost anyone else actually considering one (including again people who'd like both a Ram and a Porsche, who I'm sure exist, various people like chocolate and also cheese, etc). If it was loyalty/satisfaction with Corvettes vs. Porsche sports cars (particularly, Porsche is mainly an SUV seller by volume these days), it might have a little more relevance. But even then again I guess it mainly comes back to some people really love 911's, some people really love Vettes, and some both (including the various quite different cars with both those names over decades). Which isn't just quibbling with your responses, the original post saying Porsche was far ahead of anyone else on satisfaction/loyalty wasn't true either, I agree, or depends on who you ask.
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