Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills
Post Reply
Topic Author
barneycat
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:38 pm

Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by barneycat »

Hi fellow bogleheads,

This is the final post in my journey from shifting a complicated, inherited portfolio at Morgan Stanley to DIY at Schwab. I've asked some questions on this forum and have gotten some great advice.

I've opened all of the accounts at Schwab, downloaded December statements and cost basis info from Morgan Stanley, confirmed a transfer bonus and reimbursement for transfer out fees - so I think I'm ready to initiate the transfers. Anything I'm missing?

I told my FA my intentions, and we spoke for an hour on the phone yesterday. I have much respect for him as a person, and he and his team have helped me through the loss of both parents and some other personal issues. So, the conversation was difficult. He was respectful and seemed to accept I want to do this. He ended it with asking I wait a couple weeks until the details of the Morgan Stanley E-Trade merger come through to consider a simpler move to that platform than going through the transfer process to Schwab.

I'd like to ask for one final sanity check, and, if appropriate, encouragement. He raised the issues I've heard before: do you have time to take this on? Do you want to? As I write this I see that the answers are clearly yes, but, the personal relationship and his hints that managing this is complicated (which I know is not the case) are giving me pause. Finally, there is the added fact that my FIL, who we encouraged to move to this FA in order to protect their retirement from his panic selling, trading, overconfidence, and irrational behavior, is now proclaiming that he will leave too - which would be a disaster :confused .

So, any final thoughts, encouragement, discouragement? As always, I appreciate the help!

barneycat
User avatar
HMSVictory
Posts: 206
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:02 am

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by HMSVictory »

This happens a lot with Financial Advisors and the majority of people stay with the advisor due to inertia.

You need to start with a fresh sheet of white paper and write down what your goals are for this money. Then build a plan for it.

Maybe you want to work with an advisor after all? Yes you can manage the funds yourself but do you want to? Lots of us on this board love to manage money and get a thrill out of learning about it - only you know if you do too. May I suggest you talk with Vanguard PAS - see what they have to say? They will put you in the simple 4 ETF portfolio and give you someone to help manage the funds. The cost is 0.30% per year plus ETF fees. Send them what your current portfolio is and see what they suggest.
Stay the course!
User avatar
midareff
Posts: 7416
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:43 am
Location: Biscayne Bay, South Florida

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by midareff »

barneycat wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:12 am Hi fellow bogleheads,

This is the final post in my journey from shifting a complicated, inherited portfolio at Morgan Stanley to DIY at Schwab. I've asked some questions on this forum and have gotten some great advice.

I've opened all of the accounts at Schwab, downloaded December statements and cost basis info from Morgan Stanley, confirmed a transfer bonus and reimbursement for transfer out fees - so I think I'm ready to initiate the transfers. Anything I'm missing?

I told my FA my intentions, and we spoke for an hour on the phone yesterday. I have much respect for him as a person, and he and his team have helped me through the loss of both parents and some other personal issues. So, the conversation was difficult. He was respectful and seemed to accept I want to do this. He ended it with asking I wait a couple weeks until the details of the Morgan Stanley E-Trade merger come through to consider a simpler move to that platform than going through the transfer process to Schwab.

I'd like to ask for one final sanity check, and, if appropriate, encouragement. He raised the issues I've heard before: do you have time to take this on? Do you want to? As I write this I see that the answers are clearly yes, but, the personal relationship and his hints that managing this is complicated (which I know is not the case) are giving me pause. Finally, there is the added fact that my FIL, who we encouraged to move to this FA in order to protect their retirement from his panic selling, trading, overconfidence, and irrational behavior, is now proclaiming that he will leave too - which would be a disaster :confused .

So, any final thoughts, encouragement, discouragement? As always, I appreciate the help!

barneycat
Even when keeping detailed excel records this is a simple task, only daunting to those who want it to be. You can't stop your FIL from acting irrationally but you can make sure you don't share any more details of your leaving which might help him along.

A financial advisor will always ask for delays as the longer he gets to hold your money the more he makes from it. Cut off the head of the dragon, anyone who would complicate a portfolio to make a client think they are doing some complicated work for them is plainly not worth employing any longer.
HomeStretch
Posts: 5762
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:06 pm

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by HomeStretch »

Consider making the move as planned to Schwab now.

Simplify your portfolio and save yourself an astronomical amount of FA fees over your lifetime. You have already done the legwork in getting accounts set up, running cost basis reports, etc. Once you get your accounts moved and your holdings cleaned up, it’s not that hard to DIY if you use a 3-fund portfolio or Target Date funds.
User avatar
markjk
Posts: 143
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:01 am

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by markjk »

barneycat wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:12 am
So, any final thoughts, encouragement, discouragement? As always, I appreciate the help!

barneycat
Separating the business aspects of this from the personal relationship is really important. You need to focus on the value you get out of the advisor relationship and determine if that is worth the costs. It's really that simple. It's not easy, but it's simple. If you believe you can do as well or even better on your own, then it makes no sense to continue paying advisor fees.

It sounds like you put in the time and your decision is made. I wouldn't slow the progress or delay at this point. It will simply make it harder and your FA will drag it out as long as possible. This is a business transaction and your FA does not want to lose a client. Just keep moving forward and stay focused on why you are doing this.

In regards to your FIL, the bottom line is you no longer need the service but he does based on what you've described. You are different people with different needs and that is OK. Hopefully he gets that.
Vanguard Fan 1367
Posts: 1960
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:09 pm

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by Vanguard Fan 1367 »

I took the advice to read Bogle's books. If you haven't read the Little Book of Common Sense Investing or some other Bogle book about mutual funds I would consider it.

I am so glad that I decided to do an asset allocation model using low fee index funds. I do save an "astronomical" amount of fees. As Bogle points out, those fees really add up over a 40 year investment lifetime.

There are a lot of choices. Bogle and others suggest buying a Total US Stock Market Fund and a Bond fund. I happily sit with an asset allocation of 70 % stocks and 30 % bonds. He also suggests just leaving your assets alone except perhaps to adjust the allocation maybe annually.

I appreciate the index funds getting invested almost for free at places like Schwab.

So I certainly have time to do this and the fees I save really make a difference.
The perfect is enemy of the good. I like avoiding international, many Bogleheads like to put some international in the mix. Either way if you buy 2 or 3 mutual funds or ETFs with low fees like .03% you will save a lot of money.

Too bad you don't have to write the FA a check every year for the fees. That way you would have a better feel of what this is costing you. If the total fees are 2% a year or more then for each 100,000 you pay 2000 as opposed to 30 dollars.
Last edited by Vanguard Fan 1367 on Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.
John Bogle: "It's amazing how difficult it is for a man to understand something if he's paid a small fortune not to understand it."
Jack FFR1846
Posts: 13283
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:05 am
Location: 26 miles, 385 yards west of Copley Square

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Complicated?

You call up Schwab and tell them "Go".

I suppose doing absolutely nothing and having eTrade merging in might be easier. I mean.....if saying "Go" is hard and difficult. shrug
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
Topic Author
barneycat
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:38 pm

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by barneycat »

Thanks for all the replies so far.

I've read most of the Boglehead recommended books and a few more. Those, coupled with the research we did in investments in graduate school has me absolutely convinced of the superiority of a simple index fund portfolio. The one complicating factor I have is significant unrealized gains from decades of American Funds. I've worked with an hourly advisor to come up with a multi-year plan to sell these off in the most tax efficient manner and slowly shift to index funds.

Thank you for the (consensus) advice to continue with my plan, execute, and not let further conversations delay the process.
User avatar
Average Investor
Posts: 236
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:27 am

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by Average Investor »

I left my FA at Merrill in 2012 after joining Bogleheads. Probably the best financial decision I ever made.

You can do it.
Tomorrow never knows.
User avatar
Shackleton
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:20 pm

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by Shackleton »

I’m not clear why you even feel the need to tell FIL that you are moving away from the FA. It is not his business and has no impact on him. Oversharing information, especially financial information, is never a good idea.
“Superhuman effort isn't worth a damn unless it achieves results.” ~Ernest Shackleton
bsteiner
Posts: 5544
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:39 pm
Location: NYC/NJ/FL

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by bsteiner »

barneycat wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:43 am ... The one complicating factor I have is significant unrealized gains from decades of American Funds. I've worked with an hourly advisor to come up with a multi-year plan to sell these off in the most tax efficient manner and slowly shift to index funds.
...
If you inherited the portfolio, the estate tax value (generally the date of death value) becomes the basis. If you inherited it recently, you might not have much gain. Or did you inherit it when the market was lower?
bogledogle
Posts: 402
Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 4:34 pm

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by bogledogle »

Delaying your move is just a retention tactic. That said, you should decide whats best for you.
Dottie57
Posts: 9746
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 5:43 pm
Location: Earth Northern Hemisphere

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by Dottie57 »

barneycat wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:43 am Thanks for all the replies so far.

I've read most of the Boglehead recommended books and a few more. Those, coupled with the research we did in investments in graduate school has me absolutely convinced of the superiority of a simple index fund portfolio. The one complicating factor I have is significant unrealized gains from decades of American Funds. I've worked with an hourly advisor to come up with a multi-year plan to sell these off in the most tax efficient manner and slowly shift to index funds.

Thank you for the (consensus) advice to continue with my plan, execute, and not let further conversations delay the process.
Best thing I did was moving from an FA to Fidelity. Very easy to check every week. Or month....or year. You will like schwab. When I transferred I did have to give Fidelity the latest statement.


Good luck. Once moved it works very well. Schwab will be a great choice for you.
Greenman72
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:17 pm

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by Greenman72 »

Asset management is as difficult as you want it to be. If you want to spend countless hours doing equity research, you are certainly welcome to do that. And most "asset managers" do spend countless hours poring over charts, technical data, economic analysis, and financial statements.

But honestly, setting up a "set it and forget it" three-fund Boglehead portfolio is pretty easy. You will need to rebalance your account periodically, but I wouldn't do it more than once or twice per year. And the people on this site are usually pretty helpful and give pretty good advice, so I think you can lean on them.

The things that are NOT easy are things that you have a CPA and attorney for. And I think that if you can find a CPA who also does personal financial planning for an hourly fee, that is your best resource. (Disclaimer--I am a CPA who provides personal financial planning for an hourly fee, so I'm biased in that regard.)

Just do the math. If you have a $2m portfolio and you pay 1% in advisory fees, that's $20k. You could pay your CPA/financial planner/lawyer $300 per hour and get 60+ hours out of them for the same price as your FA. (That's a lot of financial planning.)
aristotelian
Posts: 8938
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:05 pm

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by aristotelian »

He is not your friend. You have a business relationship. Actually you do not need to talk to him and in fact you are just wasting his time in doing so. Schwab should be able to handle the transaction completely from their side. Once it is completed you could as a courtesy give the advisor a call and thank him for his help. You (and the original account owner) paid for his service so you don't owe him anything now that the service is no longer needed.
Vanguard Fan 1367
Posts: 1960
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:09 pm

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by Vanguard Fan 1367 »

barneycat wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:43 am Thanks for all the replies so far.

I've read most of the Boglehead recommended books and a few more. Those, coupled with the research we did in investments in graduate school has me absolutely convinced of the superiority of a simple index fund portfolio. The one complicating factor I have is significant unrealized gains from decades of American Funds. I've worked with an hourly advisor to come up with a multi-year plan to sell these off in the most tax efficient manner and slowly shift to index funds.

Thank you for the (consensus) advice to continue with my plan, execute, and not let further conversations delay the process.
I took advantage of the March correction to do some cleanup of my unrealized gains that I wanted to sell.
John Bogle: "It's amazing how difficult it is for a man to understand something if he's paid a small fortune not to understand it."
Pandemic Bangs
Posts: 375
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2020 3:49 pm

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by Pandemic Bangs »

barneycat wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:12 am He raised the issues I've heard before: do you have time to take this on? Do you want to?
I can tell by your post that you are obviously sharp enough to do this yourself. I do not have many posts but I have followed this forum for a long time.

If you were to ask your advisor how much time he (?) spent on managing your portfolio, and in the near-zero chance that he answered honestly, you would be amazed. I can't imagine he spends an hour a year on you. Maybe more time answering your emails or forwarding you garbage pre-digested internet nonsense or signing your holiday card.

It is way less stressful having this in my own hands. I know when the trades are made. I know the CG implications. And if I don't, I can ask here (or, more often, search here).

Assuming your overall asset allocation is where you want to be (stocks:bonds), you can pace yourself. Even the worst ERs will not do too much damage in the coming six months. You just don't want those losses compounding over decades.
Wait 'til I get my money right | Then you can't tell me nothing, right?
User avatar
MrBobcat
Posts: 613
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:19 pm

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by MrBobcat »

barneycat wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:12 am
the personal relationship and his hints that managing this is complicated (which I know is not the case) are giving me pause.
barneycat
Sales tactics. I had a good personal relationship (or so I thought) with my EJ guy before leaving, his parting shot was that it was complicated (akin to flying a plane w/o a pilot). Anyway I've saved easily in excess of $10K in fees since I left 6/2019 not even counting the ER fee savings in some of the funds he had me in.
User avatar
MrBobcat
Posts: 613
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:19 pm

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by MrBobcat »

Pandemic Bangs wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:52 pm
barneycat wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:12 am He raised the issues I've heard before: do you have time to take this on? Do you want to?
I can tell by your post that you are obviously sharp enough to do this yourself. I do not have many posts but I have followed this forum for a long time.

If you were to ask your advisor how much time he (?) spent on managing your portfolio, and in the near-zero chance that he answered honestly, you would be amazed. I can't imagine he spends an hour a year on you. Maybe more time answering your emails or forwarding you garbage pre-digested internet nonsense or signing your holiday card.

It is way less stressful having this in my own hands. I know when the trades are made. I know the CG implications. And if I don't, I can ask here (or, more often, search here).

Assuming your overall asset allocation is where you want to be (stocks:bonds), you can pace yourself. Even the worst ERs will not do too much damage in the coming six months. You just don't want those losses compounding over decades.
<If you were to ask your advisor how much time he (?) spent on managing your portfolio, and in the near-zero chance that he answered honestly, you would be amazed. I can't imagine he spends an hour a year on you.>

Definitely not if he doesn't add in all the monthly sales call to sell this "fully valued" to buy this new "hot pick".
Shallowpockets
Posts: 1897
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:26 am

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by Shallowpockets »

Be bold. Go forth. Do it yourself.
Do it soon so you will have a nice calendar year of stats by the end of 2021 and you will easily be able to see results of your new finances.
skol_vikings
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:30 pm

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by skol_vikings »

I made the switch from a FA to Schwab last year. I have absolutely no regrets other than wishing I had done it sooner. The process is simple and Schwab is happy to help with any questions.
Stubbie
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri May 29, 2020 6:09 am

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by Stubbie »

Do it now. Every month you wait only makes it more difficult.
Greenman72
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:17 pm

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by Greenman72 »

Pandemic Bangs wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:52 pm If you were to ask your advisor how much time he (?) spent on managing your portfolio, and in the near-zero chance that he answered honestly, you would be amazed. I can't imagine he spends an hour a year on you. Maybe more time answering your emails or forwarding you garbage pre-digested internet nonsense or signing your holiday card.
Straight truth.
The vast majority of "financial advisors" outsource their portfolio management. And the vast majority of them also outsource the account maintenance. That way they can spend their time prospecting new clients and cross-selling products to their existing clients.

How do I know this? Because I am a financial advisor. I outsource my portfolio management and the account maintenance.
angelescrest
Posts: 1272
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 10:48 am
Location: MCOL, no state income tax

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by angelescrest »

aristotelian wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:58 pm He is not your friend. You have a business relationship. Actually you do not need to talk to him and in fact you are just wasting his time in doing so. Schwab should be able to handle the transaction completely from their side. Once it is completed you could as a courtesy give the advisor a call and thank him for his help. You (and the original account owner) paid for his service so you don't owe him anything now that the service is no longer needed.
This. I’m sympathetic cuz I often feel bad when I cut ties, but make no mistake that this is a business relationship and they profited heavily from your “friendship”. It’s harder on them than you, for good reason.
sco
Posts: 971
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:28 pm

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by sco »

If the Etrade product they offer is truly compelling (it may be equal at best), then you could always move back. Either way, if it is this FA won't be involved in it.

Just hit the Go button and be done with it. He's playing with your emotions


Image
sco
Posts: 971
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:28 pm

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by sco »

If the Etrade product they offer is truly compelling (it may be equal at best), then you could always move back. Either way, this FA won't be involved as there won't be any money in it.


Just hit the Go button and be done with it. He's playing with your emotions


Image
bkweathe
Posts: 232
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:02 pm

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by bkweathe »

1. Don't talk to your old advisor again until the transfer is complete unless Vanguard tells you to. If you do, expect another sales pitch.
2. After the transfer is complete, if you really think you have to communicate with your old advisor (you don't!), send him a very short thank you note. Don't even hint that you would consider coming back.
3. Don't tell you FIL anything more about the changes you're making. If he asks, encourage him to stick with his plan.

Brad
bampf
Posts: 724
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:19 pm

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by bampf »

He doesn't have your best interests at heart. He has his best interests at heart. If you are secure that you won't panic, overmanage or fiddle, go. You know the right things to do (Low cost index funds). Just do it. You won't regret it and the money you save from not making his boat payment or his 3rd wife's alimony payment is the sweet sweet smell of victory. You got this. Do it. Don't tell anyone else, don't discuss it. Personal finance is personal. You know the right thing to do here.
Lexx
Posts: 306
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:21 pm

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by Lexx »

If I can leave my FA anyone can. I had this company for over a decade, and in all honesty they kept me from my worst inclinations. They used DFA funds primarily and the last few years they've been using Momentum. So the returns net of their fees have been good.

However we only meet 2 or 3 times a year and all that ever happened at these meetings was my FA would tell me to stay the course, keep putting money into the market, never get out, and that I should keep working. I have substantial real estate investments and the FA never gave me any advice that made sense to me. In fact, all she'd ever do was to nod and say "yes you've done well here". A couple of times she told me that it would be smarter to liquidate my real estate holdings, pay the capital gains taxes, and put it all into the assets under their management. FAT CHANCE!!!

For all of that they were charging me 1.25%. NO MORE. Ever since I've been reading this forum, I am starting to see the light that a simple 3 fund portfolio will probably perform close to what this FA company was doing for me but without their fees. That's like buying myself a new car every year for free!

I may hire one of the Boglehead recommended FA's on an hourly basis for some specific issues but other than that, it really feels nice to be NOT paying fees anymore.
Topic Author
barneycat
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:38 pm

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by barneycat »

Greenman72 wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:42 pm
Pandemic Bangs wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:52 pm If you were to ask your advisor how much time he (?) spent on managing your portfolio, and in the near-zero chance that he answered honestly, you would be amazed. I can't imagine he spends an hour a year on you. Maybe more time answering your emails or forwarding you garbage pre-digested internet nonsense or signing your holiday card.
Straight truth.
The vast majority of "financial advisors" outsource their portfolio management. And the vast majority of them also outsource the account maintenance. That way they can spend their time prospecting new clients and cross-selling products to their existing clients.

How do I know this? Because I am a financial advisor. I outsource my portfolio management and the account maintenance.
Thanks, Greenman72, I appreciate your advice and perspective.
Topic Author
barneycat
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:38 pm

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by barneycat »

Lexx wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:43 am If I can leave my FA anyone can. I had this company for over a decade, and in all honesty they kept me from my worst inclinations. They used DFA funds primarily and the last few years they've been using Momentum. So the returns net of their fees have been good.

However we only meet 2 or 3 times a year and all that ever happened at these meetings was my FA would tell me to stay the course, keep putting money into the market, never get out, and that I should keep working. I have substantial real estate investments and the FA never gave me any advice that made sense to me. In fact, all she'd ever do was to nod and say "yes you've done well here". A couple of times she told me that it would be smarter to liquidate my real estate holdings, pay the capital gains taxes, and put it all into the assets under their management. FAT CHANCE!!!

For all of that they were charging me 1.25%. NO MORE. Ever since I've been reading this forum, I am starting to see the light that a simple 3 fund portfolio will probably perform close to what this FA company was doing for me but without their fees. That's like buying myself a new car every year for free!

I may hire one of the Boglehead recommended FA's on an hourly basis for some specific issues but other than that, it really feels nice to be NOT paying fees anymore.
Thanks for sharing your personal experience!
Topic Author
barneycat
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:38 pm

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by barneycat »

Good morning Bogleheads!

Thank you all. Your comments have stiffened my spine and I'm going to knock this out on Tuesday.

BTW - my wife let it slip to her FIL, but she says it was due to my poor communication skills :happy So, yes, totally agree with you all that our business is our business. I talked with both MIL and FIL yesterday and their heads are in the right places now.
mptfan
Posts: 6401
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:58 am

Re: Leaving FA - had the convo, could use some support!

Post by mptfan »

MrBobcat wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:56 pm I had a good personal relationship (or so I thought) with my EJ guy before leaving...
Why did you say "or so I thought"? Have you had a good personal relationship since leaving?
Post Reply