current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
I was playing with some pension calculations and trying to figure out the value of a federal pension. It is easy to calculate the value (other than assuming inflation and life expectancy) if you leave with at 5 years and defer until 62. It is also very easy to calculate once you are 62 (other than the inflation beyond cola-lite and life expectancy). It is between these regions, in the MRA+10 especially, but the 60+20 also (mostly due to the nuances of the ss supplement and potential reductions to it) where it gets tricky to project.
Even if one builds a spreadsheet and assumes a set scenario such as "deferred until MRA, then MRA+10 until 60+20, then normal if over 62", the nuances make it awfully complex to model, beyond the normal assumptions needed to estimate present pension values such as inflation, safe rate of return, and life expectancy. I spent a few hours and ended up throwing up my hands to get it right in the MRA+10 and 60/20 scenarios. What I have is a good ballpark, but OPM has done a good job of making it a little dizzying.
I would think that someone who is considering federal employment but is not a dedicated *lifer* might have done these calculations. They would also be useful (or at least interesting) for someone nearing eligibility to decide when to go, but I cannot find any such spreadsheet online. I'm envisioning a spreadsheet with a row for each age, showing the NPV of the pension if one were to terminate at that age and take the annuity under various scenarios. A map of the "leave and take it immediately, or as soon as possible" value as a function of age.
I hear coworkers in my agency talk about "best dates" (these seems to be marginal tweaks based on pay periods aligning with months) and "paid more not to come to work" (maybe true for some remaining CSRS guys but even the older FERs guys say it) but the people who opine about these things seem very unsophisticated with finances and I'd like to run some numbers for myself. It seems to me that what I'm asking about would be useful, because from my rough spreadsheet, some pretty big jumps (or even drops) in effective annual compensation occur as one passes various thresholds for different retirements using reasonable assumptions. But the nuances are devlish to get right. Anyone know of a tool for this? I'm too young to go to the retirement planning seminars but my impression is that they also do not do what I'm wondering.
To be clear, I'm just trying to model the value of the FERS annuity and associated SS supplement. I'm aware that health benefits also kick in some scenarios but not others, and that's a big deal, but I'm not worried about including that complication. Thanks.
Even if one builds a spreadsheet and assumes a set scenario such as "deferred until MRA, then MRA+10 until 60+20, then normal if over 62", the nuances make it awfully complex to model, beyond the normal assumptions needed to estimate present pension values such as inflation, safe rate of return, and life expectancy. I spent a few hours and ended up throwing up my hands to get it right in the MRA+10 and 60/20 scenarios. What I have is a good ballpark, but OPM has done a good job of making it a little dizzying.
I would think that someone who is considering federal employment but is not a dedicated *lifer* might have done these calculations. They would also be useful (or at least interesting) for someone nearing eligibility to decide when to go, but I cannot find any such spreadsheet online. I'm envisioning a spreadsheet with a row for each age, showing the NPV of the pension if one were to terminate at that age and take the annuity under various scenarios. A map of the "leave and take it immediately, or as soon as possible" value as a function of age.
I hear coworkers in my agency talk about "best dates" (these seems to be marginal tweaks based on pay periods aligning with months) and "paid more not to come to work" (maybe true for some remaining CSRS guys but even the older FERs guys say it) but the people who opine about these things seem very unsophisticated with finances and I'd like to run some numbers for myself. It seems to me that what I'm asking about would be useful, because from my rough spreadsheet, some pretty big jumps (or even drops) in effective annual compensation occur as one passes various thresholds for different retirements using reasonable assumptions. But the nuances are devlish to get right. Anyone know of a tool for this? I'm too young to go to the retirement planning seminars but my impression is that they also do not do what I'm wondering.
To be clear, I'm just trying to model the value of the FERS annuity and associated SS supplement. I'm aware that health benefits also kick in some scenarios but not others, and that's a big deal, but I'm not worried about including that complication. Thanks.
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Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
I hear you. one of these days I'll sit down and model what is it worth for me to get to 5 years (and buying back my 4 years of military service) and defer until 62.
I've been dragging my feet because i start with the government in about 3 weeks and I don't want to feel like I have handcuffs to make it to 5 years.
I've been dragging my feet because i start with the government in about 3 weeks and I don't want to feel like I have handcuffs to make it to 5 years.
Earned 43 (and counting) credit hours of financial planning related education from a regionally accredited university, but I am not your advisor.
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Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
What about the people who retire and want or can take another job? That’s another complication.
If you can work another job at $X salary, when does it make sense to retire? I wonder if that’s what some of your co-workers are referring to.
If you never take your pension you’ll never get any value from it, so it encourages you to retire in some way.
If you can work another job at $X salary, when does it make sense to retire? I wonder if that’s what some of your co-workers are referring to.
If you never take your pension you’ll never get any value from it, so it encourages you to retire in some way.
The most precious gift we can offer anyone is our attention. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
Most folks rely upon the pros (corporate actuaries) to model this. They shop (well, online-shop) for an annuity on the open market that would pay the FERS-level benefit on your FERS timeframe. That's the best way to get the "cash value" of your present defined-benefit pension. Obviously it is very interest-rate dependent so these are expensive now and the "value" of your annuity (FERS in this case) will look especially attractive.forkhorn wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:16 am
To be clear, I'm just trying to model the value of the FERS annuity and associated SS supplement. I'm aware that health benefits also kick in some scenarios but not others, and that's a big deal, but I'm not worried about including that complication. Thanks.
Don't underestimate the FEHB benefit -- meaning access to low-cost group-rate health insurance at early retirement. See the recent "What do I do until Medicare kicks in" thread
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Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
The spreadsheets on the following page are pretty good:Pandemic Bangs wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:50 amMost folks rely upon the pros (corporate actuaries) to model this. They shop (well, online-shop) for an annuity on the open market that would pay the FERS-level benefit on your FERS timeframe. That's the best way to get the "cash value" of your present defined-benefit pension. Obviously it is very interest-rate dependent so these are expensive now and the "value" of your annuity (FERS in this case) will look especially attractive.forkhorn wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:16 am
To be clear, I'm just trying to model the value of the FERS annuity and associated SS supplement. I'm aware that health benefits also kick in some scenarios but not others, and that's a big deal, but I'm not worried about including that complication. Thanks.
Don't underestimate the FEHB benefit -- meaning access to low-cost group-rate health insurance at early retirement. See the recent "What do I do until Medicare kicks in" thread
https://www.kitces.com/blog/rigorous-an ... one-right/
If your using the one that uses the SS Life tables as part of the analysis, consider updating it to a newer version of the table.
These aren't for FERS directly, but you can adjust/adapt them to FERS pretty easily
Earned 43 (and counting) credit hours of financial planning related education from a regionally accredited university, but I am not your advisor.
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
Thanks. I ended up spending several more hours today making my own. I was thinking about cleaning it up some and trying to somehow post it to bogleheads (I don't know how to post an excel file). I think it might be pretty useful to people considering joining the federal govt, leaving early, trying to decide when to retire, and also just for general information about the value, in concrete terms, of the federal retiree package. There are posts along those lines pretty regularly.
It's also kind of fun to see how effective annual compensation climbs with age even at constant salary (at least until one nears death and starts to drop the value of the pension), how there are huge spikes (especially when FEHBs kick in at the MRA) as one crosses various trips, and it also answers questions like the value of an hour of sick leave. I'll try and look up how to post it (may have to get moderators to help) and then people can pick it apart and decide if it's interesting to people other than me.
The weakest part is estimating the value of FEHB before and after age 65, and the inflation rate to assume for those values. I just used zero since it's such a wag, but it's still interesting to put in some rough numbers and see the results.
It's also kind of fun to see how effective annual compensation climbs with age even at constant salary (at least until one nears death and starts to drop the value of the pension), how there are huge spikes (especially when FEHBs kick in at the MRA) as one crosses various trips, and it also answers questions like the value of an hour of sick leave. I'll try and look up how to post it (may have to get moderators to help) and then people can pick it apart and decide if it's interesting to people other than me.
The weakest part is estimating the value of FEHB before and after age 65, and the inflation rate to assume for those values. I just used zero since it's such a wag, but it's still interesting to put in some rough numbers and see the results.
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
I guess I don't see much of a point to this exercise. I am speaking as a two time fed employee who just received an offer to go back for a 3rd time. In my case I know going back isn't a financial benefit since I already qualified for a MRA+20 postponed retirement. And contract positions would pay me tons more money.
I do think it is important to understand the retirement calculations and types of retirement. I am fortunate where my contribution to FERS is negligible at 0.8%.
I can't speak to CSRS details but when to retire under FERS is often just foolishness. I am referring to what month, etc. For example someone was trying to tell me late in the year so you can get paid for all of your use or lose leave. Does it matter if instead you take the leave and retire a month later or retire earlier and get paid for it? If anything you are better taking the leave and earn an extra month in your pension calculation even though it won't add up to much.
And while you get credited for sick leave in your pension time, it ends up being of limited value. For example IF you had a choice of getting paid for 1 year of sick leave or get 1% more on your pension, the easy answer is get paid for it like vacation time.
Working until 62 gets you the 10% boost in your pension which can help those that need extra money or really enjoy their job. Unfortunately many feds I worked with and were with the gov their entire career couldn't wait to leave due to bad morale in much of the workforce.
Anyhow good luck.
I do think it is important to understand the retirement calculations and types of retirement. I am fortunate where my contribution to FERS is negligible at 0.8%.
I can't speak to CSRS details but when to retire under FERS is often just foolishness. I am referring to what month, etc. For example someone was trying to tell me late in the year so you can get paid for all of your use or lose leave. Does it matter if instead you take the leave and retire a month later or retire earlier and get paid for it? If anything you are better taking the leave and earn an extra month in your pension calculation even though it won't add up to much.
And while you get credited for sick leave in your pension time, it ends up being of limited value. For example IF you had a choice of getting paid for 1 year of sick leave or get 1% more on your pension, the easy answer is get paid for it like vacation time.
Working until 62 gets you the 10% boost in your pension which can help those that need extra money or really enjoy their job. Unfortunately many feds I worked with and were with the gov their entire career couldn't wait to leave due to bad morale in much of the workforce.
Anyhow good luck.
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If you think something is important and it doesn't involve the health of someone, think again. Life goes too fast, enjoy it and be nice.
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Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
Cool! Thank you!Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:17 pm
The spreadsheets on the following page are pretty good:
https://www.kitces.com/blog/rigorous-an ... one-right/
If your using the one that uses the SS Life tables as part of the analysis, consider updating it to a newer version of the table.
Wait 'til I get my money right | Then you can't tell me nothing, right?
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
you're not kidding about the FEHB thing. coupled with the SS supplement...despite FERS being less than state pensions, federal retirement is still the best game in townPandemic Bangs wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:50 amMost folks rely upon the pros (corporate actuaries) to model this. They shop (well, online-shop) for an annuity on the open market that would pay the FERS-level benefit on your FERS timeframe. That's the best way to get the "cash value" of your present defined-benefit pension. Obviously it is very interest-rate dependent so these are expensive now and the "value" of your annuity (FERS in this case) will look especially attractive.forkhorn wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:16 am
To be clear, I'm just trying to model the value of the FERS annuity and associated SS supplement. I'm aware that health benefits also kick in some scenarios but not others, and that's a big deal, but I'm not worried about including that complication. Thanks.
Don't underestimate the FEHB benefit -- meaning access to low-cost group-rate health insurance at early retirement. See the recent "What do I do until Medicare kicks in" thread
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
a co-worker is 62 years old. approaching two years of service. no military time. he told me he might leave.
Using a high-3 of $82,000, assuming 5% payout, I calculated the pension would be worth $82,000 if he stayed three more years and retired with five years FERS service pension.
I am going to put it on paper to show him.
Using a high-3 of $82,000, assuming 5% payout, I calculated the pension would be worth $82,000 if he stayed three more years and retired with five years FERS service pension.
I am going to put it on paper to show him.
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
????????????chalet wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:11 am a co-worker is 62 years old. approaching two years of service. no military time. he told me he might leave.
Using a high-3 of $82,000, assuming 5% payout, I calculated the pension would be worth $82,000 if he stayed three more years and retired with five years FERS service pension.
I am going to put it on paper to show him.
not sure that's right, just retired with high 3 of 104,000, got first check of 1400*12 = 16,800 for 23 years service at 62.
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
...and working until 62 means one foregoes the annuity supplement... I haven't done the math (which I am not good at anyway) but that is a good chunk of change so unless one loves the job, I say pull the ripcord at 57!rich126 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:05 pm
Working until 62 gets you the 10% boost in your pension which can help those that need extra money or really enjoy their job. Unfortunately many feds I worked with and were with the gov their entire career couldn't wait to leave due to bad morale in much of the workforce.
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
Assume chalet is referring to the PV of the pension, not the amount of the annuity.f35phixer wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:03 am????????????chalet wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:11 am a co-worker is 62 years old. approaching two years of service. no military time. he told me he might leave.
Using a high-3 of $82,000, assuming 5% payout, I calculated the pension would be worth $82,000 if he stayed three more years and retired with five years FERS service pension.
I am going to put it on paper to show him.
not sure that's right, just retired with high 3 of 104,000, got first check of 1400*12 = 16,800 for 23 years service at 62.
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
that's what I meant. topic was "current value".
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
Unless things have changed, this mostly has to do with getting a few extra vacation or sick days or some increase in benefits that happens just after the first of the year. For some, January 3 was better than retiring the end of the previous year.forkhorn wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:16 am I hear coworkers in my agency talk about "best dates" (these seems to be marginal tweaks based on pay periods aligning with months) and "paid more not to come to work" (maybe true for some remaining CSRS guys but even the older FERs guys say it) but the people who opine about these things seem very unsophisticated with finances and I'd like to run some numbers for myself.
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Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
An important thing to know about the FERS supplement is that it goes away if you get another job. But the timing of when it goes away is highly dependent on when you retire and when you start your next job. For example, if you retire late in 2021 and your post-retirement employment income in 2021 is below the limit (around $18K), then you can collect the supplement all through 2022 and half of 2023 before it goes away. I didn't really understand how this worked before I retired, and if I had, I might have waited a couple months longer to retire or I might have taken a long vacation between retiring and starting my post-retirement job.
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
The actual amount would be 23% of 104K or $23,920 annually, $1,933.33 monthly. The government will take out taxes and your health insurance from that amount. Also you'd lose 10% of the $23,920 if you elect a 50% survivor ship for your spouse.f35phixer wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:03 am????????????chalet wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:11 am a co-worker is 62 years old. approaching two years of service. no military time. he told me he might leave.
Using a high-3 of $82,000, assuming 5% payout, I calculated the pension would be worth $82,000 if he stayed three more years and retired with five years FERS service pension.
I am going to put it on paper to show him.
not sure that's right, just retired with high 3 of 104,000, got first check of 1400*12 = 16,800 for 23 years service at 62.
People, employees or outsiders, can easily get confused with various rules on federal retirement. Some think you can retire after 20 years like being in the military but only a few law enforcement and other special positions allow for that. The vast majority don't.
Retirement ages vary depending on your date of birth as they increased the minimum retirement age to 57 for anyone born in 1970+. At one time it was 55. To retire at the min age w/o losing any of your pension you need 30 years of service. If you retire at the min age with less service time you get penalized 5% per year from age 62.
It certainly isn't a bad deal although it has gotten worse over the years and the employee contributions have gone from a low 0.8% to about 4.4% currently.
MRA+10 refers to someone retiring at a minimum retirement age and having 10 years of service. In that case you have 2 options I believe. You can quit and not collect your pension (or health insurance) until 62 OR collect it immediately and pay the permanent 5% per year penalty for early retirement. And you can elect to do so at any point between the time you left and age 62. So someone could wait a year or two to reduce the penalty.
I left under MRA+20 (my MRA is 56) which only changes the fact that I can get my pension at age 60 w/o penalty however if I do so earlier, the penalty is still calculated from age 62 which is painful. For example if I decide to collect it at 59, my permanent reduction in my pension would be 15%, but if I wait one year, I could get it w/ o penalty at 60.
Most people either leave the government and only are eligible for a deferred pension and cannot obtain health insurance, or they stay long enough to collect the immediate pension, health insurance and supplement.
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If you think something is important and it doesn't involve the health of someone, think again. Life goes too fast, enjoy it and be nice.
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
Reviving old thread with question. If you are doing Roth Conversions would that preclude receiving the FERS supplement?
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
Pensions are calculated on high three salary and years and months of service, days of service less than a month you kiss good bye. Employees would try to plan to burn off the excess days of service, seemed too OCD for me given the benefit of an extra month.rich126 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:05 pm I guess I don't see much of a point to this exercise. I am speaking as a two time fed employee who just received an offer to go back for a 3rd time. In my case I know going back isn't a financial benefit since I already qualified for a MRA+20 postponed retirement. And contract positions would pay me tons more money.
I do think it is important to understand the retirement calculations and types of retirement. I am fortunate where my contribution to FERS is negligible at 0.8%.
I can't speak to CSRS details but when to retire under FERS is often just foolishness. I am referring to what month, etc. For example someone was trying to tell me late in the year so you can get paid for all of your use or lose leave. Does it matter if instead you take the leave and retire a month later or retire earlier and get paid for it? If anything you are better taking the leave and earn an extra month in your pension calculation even though it won't add up to much.
And while you get credited for sick leave in your pension time, it ends up being of limited value. For example IF you had a choice of getting paid for 1 year of sick leave or get 1% more on your pension, the easy answer is get paid for it like vacation time.
Working until 62 gets you the 10% boost in your pension which can help those that need extra money or really enjoy their job. Unfortunately many feds I worked with and were with the gov their entire career couldn't wait to leave due to bad morale in much of the workforce.
Anyhow good luck.
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
While I can't estimate future FEHB increases, when considering the value of FEHB the govt. kicks in about two thirds of the total cost. So if your paying $200, it would cost you $600 buying it on your own.forkhorn wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:24 pm Thanks. I ended up spending several more hours today making my own. I was thinking about cleaning it up some and trying to somehow post it to bogleheads (I don't know how to post an excel file). I think it might be pretty useful to people considering joining the federal govt, leaving early, trying to decide when to retire, and also just for general information about the value, in concrete terms, of the federal retiree package. There are posts along those lines pretty regularly.
It's also kind of fun to see how effective annual compensation climbs with age even at constant salary (at least until one nears death and starts to drop the value of the pension), how there are huge spikes (especially when FEHBs kick in at the MRA) as one crosses various trips, and it also answers questions like the value of an hour of sick leave. I'll try and look up how to post it (may have to get moderators to help) and then people can pick it apart and decide if it's interesting to people other than me.
The weakest part is estimating the value of FEHB before and after age 65, and the inflation rate to assume for those values. I just used zero since it's such a wag, but it's still interesting to put in some rough numbers and see the results.
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
If you leave before retirement eligibility here's an option: " If you leave your Government job before becoming eligible for retirement:finite_difference wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:45 am What about the people who retire and want or can take another job? That’s another complication.
If you can work another job at $X salary, when does it make sense to retire? I wonder if that’s what some of your co-workers are referring to.
If you never take your pension you’ll never get any value from it, so it encourages you to retire in some way.
you can ask that your retirement contributions be returned to you in a lump sum payment"
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
One thing I did not see mentioned in this topic is that no matter how old you are when you retire you will not get any COLAs until the year you turn 62. So if you retire at MRA 57 you will not get a COLA for the first five years.
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
Anyone know how to apply for FERS when you have left the government a long time ago? (for me 27 years, applying in 3)
The instructions/form talk about submitting to your agency. Is that the last agency you worked for? Or is there some central OPM place to apply? It looks like it's still all by paper - hoping it becomes electronic at some point.
The instructions/form talk about submitting to your agency. Is that the last agency you worked for? Or is there some central OPM place to apply? It looks like it's still all by paper - hoping it becomes electronic at some point.
"Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out." ― John Wooden
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
But would you receive the FERS supplement? I have a question about that actually. Would Roth Conversions mean you wouldn't receive the FERS supplement?
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
You probably can take the seminar at any age, just make a compelling case to your boss. Everyone should understand their benefits as early as possible, to make good decisions throughout their career. However, the usefulness of the seminar will depend on the quality of the presenter. Some organizations use in-house retirement specialists and others outsource to independent financial advisors.
My agency had an on-line tool I could use to model different retirement scenarios. I believe that it was the FRB (Federal Retirement Benefits) Calculator. I can't recall if I accessed it through the portal to my e-personnel file or possibly the payroll system. My work history was pre-loaded and I could enter my SS earning record. I started using it years before I retired and it was helpful to me to compare benefits at various milestones.
Good luck.
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
Lots of replies to a zombie thread going on here.
Regarding the FERS supplement, I don't see how Roth conversions would interfere. The way I recall it, the FERS supplement is not dependent on anything other than retiring earlier than SS age.
You might want to start a new thread with your question if it becomes lost in this old thread.
Regarding the FERS supplement, I don't see how Roth conversions would interfere. The way I recall it, the FERS supplement is not dependent on anything other than retiring earlier than SS age.
You might want to start a new thread with your question if it becomes lost in this old thread.
Link to Asking Portfolio Questions
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
Like Social Security it's taxed when you are earning an income. Usually Trad --> Roth conversions count as income.retiredjg wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 4:02 pm Lots of replies to a zombie thread going on here.
Regarding the FERS supplement, I don't see how Roth conversions would interfere. The way I recall it, the FERS supplement is not dependent on anything other than retiring earlier than SS age.
You might want to start a new thread with your question if it becomes lost in this old thread.
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
I think the question is whether doing the Roth conversions would interfere with getting the FERS Supplement.cowbman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 4:20 pmLike Social Security it's taxed when you are earning an income. Usually Trad --> Roth conversions count as income.retiredjg wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 4:02 pm Lots of replies to a zombie thread going on here.
Regarding the FERS supplement, I don't see how Roth conversions would interfere. The way I recall it, the FERS supplement is not dependent on anything other than retiring earlier than SS age.
You might want to start a new thread with your question if it becomes lost in this old thread.
Link to Asking Portfolio Questions
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
See this thread 2nd post from the bottom. #Cruncher was kind enough to code up a NPV calculator to approximate the FERS annuity including the aspects that it is not inflation adjusted for X years and then partially inflation adjusted after that.forkhorn wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:16 am To be clear, I'm just trying to model the value of the FERS annuity and associated SS supplement. I'm aware that health benefits also kick in some scenarios but not others, and that's a big deal, but I'm not worried about including that complication. Thanks.
The FERS annuity supplement is not included in the above but is pretty easy to compute a NPV for it using any variety of annuity NPV calculators of since it's for a very limited number of years and not inflation adjusted.
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Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
Roth conversions are 1099-R retirement income, so they are taxed and included in MAGI. But the phase out of FERS supplement is tied to work income not retirement, investment, or rental property income.
Here's the form you have to fill out each year if you are getting FERS supplement and exceed annual max wage income:
https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/ri92-022_2021.pdf
Read Page 1 and Page 2
Their term is "work income". Roth conversions are not "work income" which would include W-2 and self employment income. Retirement income (such as on a 1099-R) is excluded.
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
The FERS supplement uses the same rules as SS for determining whether to reduce the benefit. Both are reduced if you have earned income over the annual maximum. (However, for FERS, this is a total loss. For SS, you are treated as delaying SS based on the lost benefit, so there isn't a large cost; if you start SS at 62 and lose one year of benefits for earning too much, then at full retirement age your SS will be recalculated as if you had claimed at 63.)cowbman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 4:20 pmLike Social Security it's taxed when you are earning an income. Usually Trad --> Roth conversions count as income.retiredjg wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 4:02 pm Lots of replies to a zombie thread going on here.
Regarding the FERS supplement, I don't see how Roth conversions would interfere. The way I recall it, the FERS supplement is not dependent on anything other than retiring earlier than SS age.
You might want to start a new thread with your question if it becomes lost in this old thread.
There is a separate rule for determining when SS is subject to income tax; this rule does depend on all of your income. That does not apply to FERS at all; the FERS pension, like any other pension, is partially taxable because some of the benefit is considered to be a return of your own contributions.
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
So if I'm understanding this correctly, Roth conversions do not count as income to eliminate the FERS supplement.
Hmm, has anyone created a FERS supplement calculator to see if it makes sense to retire, take the supplement, and convert, vs continuing to work and grow the number of years towards the pension calculation?
Hmm, has anyone created a FERS supplement calculator to see if it makes sense to retire, take the supplement, and convert, vs continuing to work and grow the number of years towards the pension calculation?
Re: current value of federal FERS pension (esp MRA+10)
A member on the ChooseFI Feds group on Facebook posted an Excel file that does a total retirement income and break even point for retiring at MRA vs age 62:Hmm, has anyone created a FERS supplement calculator to see if it makes sense to retire, take the supplement, and convert, vs continuing to work and grow the number of years towards the pension calculation?
https://www.facebook.com/download/12178 ... __tn__=H-R