Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

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Frank the Tank
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Frank the Tank »

Nyc10036 wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:09 pm Any chance of transfering from U of I - Chicago to the main campus after 1 or 2?
I went to UIUC and follow the admissions closely since I still live in Illinois and have twins coming for college in a few years.

It’s virtually impossible to transfer into the CS program at UIUC. I think the big thing that people don’t realize with UIUC (and a lot of other large flagship schools, for that matter) is that the overall admissions stats are irrelevant. Instead, each major essentially has its own admissions process. Even though the average ACT for UIUC overall is generally around 30-31, it’s totally different and much higher for the engineering and business programs... and CS is the hardest major of all. The last stat that I saw was that the median ACT for the UIUC CS program was 35, which is 1 point short of a perfect score and is hard to get into as any Ivy at this point. I think it’s even harder this pandemic year with all top schools getting more applications than ever. Even putting aside if you have the opportunity for in-state tuition, the only “no brainer” CS schools that one would choose over UIUC are Stanford and MIT.

To the OP - I have a lot of affinity for UIC since my parents met there as students (so I literally wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for that school) and my father worked there for many years. It has grown a lot on the undergrad side over the past 15 years and the location in the West Loop has turned into a great asset. (That wasn’t the case up until the 1990s.) Little Italy is right there and the tech corridor in Fulton Market (where Google and other tech firms have their Chicago offices) are not too far north of campus. There’s still going to be more of a commuter presence compared to the other schools on your list, so that’s something to consider.

I’d agree with some other posters that Iowa State would provide the most traditional college experience with a residential campus and Big 12 sports. They seem to be providing great scholarships to Chicago-area kids right now.

I have a friend that went to Michigan Tech and it’s definitely way up north! You certainly need to love the winter temps since the U.P. makes Chicago look balmy by comparison. That being said, my impression is that it’s a pretty tight knit place for a public university with its smaller size. They have the unusual setup of having a Division I hockey team (even though it’s other sports are Division II), so it’s a big hockey school. The engineering program set my friend up very well professionally (eventually going to the Kellogg School at Northwestern for his MBA).
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ualdriver
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by ualdriver »

My primary concern with Michigan Tech is that it is ssssoooo far away from civilization. I thought it was a great school, but my concern is that when it comes to internship time, he's away from big cities (like Chicago). Perhaps he will miss internship opportunities, for example, that a kid from Univ of IL Chicago might have being "so close" to a big city (and future jobs?) Perhaps my concerns aren't well founded.

I posed the question to a CS admin person at Michigan Tech and she disagreed with me. She said that potential employers come to Michigan Tech to recruit THEIR students every year. Of course, she's biased too. She's got classes to fill.
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ualdriver
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by ualdriver »

Frank the Tank wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:18 pm
Nyc10036 wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:09 pm Any chance of transfering from U of I - Chicago to the main campus after 1 or 2?
I went to UIUC and follow the admissions closely since I still live in Illinois and have twins coming for college in a few years.

It’s virtually impossible to transfer into the CS program at UIUC. I think the big thing that people don’t realize with UIUC (and a lot of other large flagship schools, for that matter) is that the overall admissions stats are irrelevant. Instead, each major essentially has its own admissions process. Even though the average ACT for UIUC overall is generally around 30-31, it’s totally different and much higher for the engineering and business programs... and CS is the hardest major of all.
Yes, this is a big mistake my wife and I made when initially (years ago) introducing our kids to colleges. I looked at UIUC, saw the "average" GPAs and ACT/SAT scores for admitted students and thought, well he should have no trouble getting into this school. We visited UIUC multiple times, thinking it would be where he would go. And he really liked the school, too. It was a bit of an "awakening" when I was introduced to college informational sites like "Niche" late in his junior year of HS that allow you to look at GPAs and test scores broken down by DEGREE PROGRAM for admitted students. Doh! If I remember correctly, you pretty much have to have a 4.0 and near perfect ACT/SAT scores to get into CS at UIUC. So learn from me......go to "Niche.com" or similar and look at the specific degree program statistics before you get your kid's hopes up : (
Last edited by ualdriver on Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
almostretired1965
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by almostretired1965 »

I noticed that no one asked how certain is your kid about wanting to study CS. Does he actually do a lot coding on his spare time? Does he participate in and contribute to open source projects on Github, etc.? If the answer is no, I think you would be making a mistake basing the college decision solely on the basis of the quality of a CS program. I thought I wanted to study chemical engineering when I was in high school, because, well, I was really good at the theoretical aspects of high school chem and hey, ChemEs made a lot of money (1980s). Well, Organic Chemistry my first semester freshmen year cured me of that quick. I hated the class and there was no way I was going to do another semester of the follow on course so that was that.

I also echo those that tell you that in tech, where you went to school matters very little after you have a few years under your belt. If you have the natural talent for writing code (and I believe this is mainly being a logical thinker, have decent memory/recall, and being detail oriented) what you really need is experience, practice, and the willingness to pick up new technology. In my opinion, every star coder I have ever met would have been one no matter where they went to school as an undergrad; many did not study CS and a few didn't even go to college.

A
techiegirl
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by techiegirl »

almostretired1965 wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:51 pm I noticed that no one asked how certain is your kid about wanting to study CS. Does he actually do a lot coding on his spare time? Does he participate in and contribute to open source projects on Github, etc.? If the answer is no, I think you would be making a mistake basing the college decision solely on the basis of the quality of a CS program. I thought I wanted to study chemical engineering when I was in high school, because, well, I was really good at the theoretical aspects of high school chem and hey, ChemEs made a lot of money (1980s). Well, Organic Chemistry my first semester freshmen year cured me of that quick. I hated the class and there was no way I was going to do another semester of the follow on course so that was that.


A
I told my daughter exactly the same thing when she chose an engineering school as her choice of college. If she decides to major in political science or business a year down the line, she would have to change schools.
Frank the Tank
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Frank the Tank »

ualdriver wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:36 pm My primary concern with Michigan Tech is that it is ssssoooo far away from civilization. I thought it was a great school, but my concern is that when it comes to internship time, he's away from big cities (like Chicago). Perhaps he will miss internship opportunities, for example, that a kid from Univ of IL Chicago might have being "so close" to a big city (and future jobs?) Perhaps my concerns aren't well founded.

I posed the question to a CS admin person at Michigan Tech and she disagreed with me. She said that potential employers come to Michigan Tech to recruit THEIR students every year. Of course, she's biased too. She's got classes to fill.
Definitely get specific lists of companies that perform on-campus interviews along with graduate destinations and salaries from the career services offices at each school. It’s one thing that I think too many parents and kids don’t even think about in looking for colleges yet it ends up having a massive outcome on opportunities. In turn, check online and message boards to see the “target schools” for different companies. Speaking from experience in having conducted on-campus interviews, firms might take a dozen interns from a target school but only a token intern from a non-target school.

I don’t know how Michigan Tech’s recruiting is, but the CS admin person may not be wrong if it’s a target school for certain companies. I’d want a lot more concrete information from their career services office to verify, though. UIC obviously has the location advantage for part-time jobs during the school year (if desired), but summer internships are a different ballgame. Many of the Big Ten schools have a recruiting advantage for a lot summer internships in Chicago over UIC/Loyola/DePaul despite not being physically located in Chicago as a result of alumni connections and target school lists. So, it’s definitely not just about location in and of itself.
elle
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by elle »

multiham wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:39 am My replies are never very popular on this subject

Just went through the same type of search with my son who is in his freshmen year studying business.

1. I told him Exactly how much I had saved in the 529 plan and if he went above that, it was going to be covered by loans he would need to pay
2. Had him research the schools and come up with a list of 5 or 6 schools that he was interested in and that he had at least a chance of getting into.
3. I let him figure out what was important to him in terms of location, size, sports, culture, etc. I believe this is critical
4. Visited his top 5 schools. He knew instantly what school he wanted to go to when he took the tour. I'm there to separate the schools marketing from reality.

Many on here will tell you to go to the in-state school, save the $ for an advanced degree. My goal was to have him be happy and to set him up for future success. So far his grades are higher than what he earned in high school, he has adjusted well to moving 750 miles away from home, and his confidence level has increased. His requirements were school in the South with warm weather, about 20,000 students, newer buildings with great technology, and great sports for him to watch. He checked with the career center prior to acceptance to make sure the type of companies he wanted to work for recruited and hired from this school. He couldn't be happier.

My advice is really let you son own this and come back to you with a list. Ask a few questions based on his list, but let him own getting the answers. Its so easy to just step in and do all the work, but the only way they learn is by doing.
Seems spot on to me. :)
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by cshell2 »

almostretired1965 wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:51 pm I noticed that no one asked how certain is your kid about wanting to study CS. Does he actually do a lot coding on his spare time? Does he participate in and contribute to open source projects on Github, etc.? If the answer is no, I think you would be making a mistake basing the college decision solely on the basis of the quality of a CS program. I thought I wanted to study chemical engineering when I was in high school, because, well, I was really good at the theoretical aspects of high school chem and hey, ChemEs made a lot of money (1980s). Well, Organic Chemistry my first semester freshmen year cured me of that quick. I hated the class and there was no way I was going to do another semester of the follow on course so that was that.
Same thing happened to my son this year. Started out with ChemE being one of his two preferred majors because he took 2 years of Chem in high school and loved it and because...big bucks. Hated his first college chem class so much that he doesn't want to step foot in another one ever again. At his school all the engineering students follow basically the same path until after Fall semester Sophomore year when they declare a major, so no big deal, but I wouldn't be completely surprised if he bailed on engineering altogether either. He's still trying to figure out where he fits in best and I'm glad he chose a school that offers pretty much anything he could want.
Parabola
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Parabola »

CS salaries are NOT in the high 150s as posted by someone. Its absolutely ridiculous and a giant exaggeration! My child graduated a semester early from CMU in CS, the offers he received were ALL in high 90s and low 100s with a 3.44 CGPA

NOBODY is paying 200k to a 21 year old
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Parabola wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:00 am CS salaries are NOT in the high 150s as posted by someone. Its absolutely ridiculous and a giant exaggeration! My child graduated a semester early from CMU in CS, the offers he received were ALL in high 90s and low 100s with a 3.44 CGPA

NOBODY is paying 200k to a 21 year old
Sorry. It might be far above median, but saying that “ NOBODY is paying 200k to a 21 year old” is demonstrably false.

ETA welcome to the forum
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
fuddbogle
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by fuddbogle »

OP,

I have a daughter that graduated from Iowa State - May 2020. She loved her time there. Not that this is your son's route but my daughter graduated in technical communication. She designed her major to focus on front-end web development (UX). Her boyfriend graduated with a CS degree, middle-of-the-road graduate - smart guy but it's not an easy program. They both wanted to stay in central Iowa :confused , yet both have what I consider good "starter" jobs in their respective field. They are happy AND my daughter has maxed out her Roth for 2020 & 2021 - Woot!

If they were willing to move I'm sure they would be more marketable.

I currently have a Junior at UIC(not computer-related). She liked her first two years. This year she's been miserable. Nothing but online classes and very little contact with her professors. Very little contact with other students. Unlike Iowa State, no help with an internship. She's struggling, not with her classes, but with life. IMO UIC has been an embarrassment during Covid. They've done nothing to help students and have kept them away. I have no hope for UIC.

I also have a freshman at the University of Missouri. A massive contrast between Mizzou and UIC. She loves her time there and is semi-close to living the normal college experience. I also have a niece at Illinois State - she's doing well and enjoying her time.

Just an FYI with our experience.
Last edited by fuddbogle on Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:30 am, edited 4 times in total.
Parabola
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Parabola »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:05 am
Parabola wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:00 am CS salaries are NOT in the high 150s as posted by someone. Its absolutely ridiculous and a giant exaggeration! My child graduated a semester early from CMU in CS, the offers he received were ALL in high 90s and low 100s with a 3.44 CGPA

NOBODY is paying 200k to a 21 year old
Sorry. It might be far above median, but saying that “ NOBODY is paying 200k to a 21 year old” is demonstrably false.

ETA welcome to the forum
Sure go ahead and believe what you want :)
random_walker_77
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by random_walker_77 »

Parabola wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:21 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:05 am
Parabola wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:00 am CS salaries are NOT in the high 150s as posted by someone. Its absolutely ridiculous and a giant exaggeration! My child graduated a semester early from CMU in CS, the offers he received were ALL in high 90s and low 100s with a 3.44 CGPA

NOBODY is paying 200k to a 21 year old
Sorry. It might be far above median, but saying that “ NOBODY is paying 200k to a 21 year old” is demonstrably false.

ETA welcome to the forum
Sure go ahead and believe what you want :)
Relax, all that's being said is avoid absolute statements, but you both have points. The average new college grad salary for CS, in california, is 67K. The average new college graduate salary for Stanford CS grads is 127K. (source for both: https://www.collegefactual.com/majors/c ... alifornia/)

For the very best students, and adding in the value of equity compensation, the total comp can reach 200+K. That's almost never going to be from salary, but rather be due to large amounts of stock-based compensation (which is subject to risk). Prior to covid, it also meant living in the SF Bay Area, so rent will be expensive and taxes will be "non-trivial."
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Parabola wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:21 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:05 am
Parabola wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:00 am CS salaries are NOT in the high 150s as posted by someone. Its absolutely ridiculous and a giant exaggeration! My child graduated a semester early from CMU in CS, the offers he received were ALL in high 90s and low 100s with a 3.44 CGPA

NOBODY is paying 200k to a 21 year old
Sorry. It might be far above median, but saying that “ NOBODY is paying 200k to a 21 year old” is demonstrably false.
ETA welcome to the forum
Sure go ahead and believe what you want :)
Who am I going to believe, you or my lying eyes? :beer
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by TomatoTomahto »

random_walker_77 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:05 am Relax, all that's being said is avoid absolute statements, but you both have points. The average new college grad salary for CS, in california, is 67K. The average new college graduate salary for Stanford CS grads is 127K. (source for both: https://www.collegefactual.com/majors/c ... alifornia/)

For the very best students, and adding in the value of equity compensation, the total comp can reach 200+K. That's almost never going to be from salary, but rather be due to large amounts of stock-based compensation (which is subject to risk). Prior to covid, it also meant living in the SF Bay Area, so rent will be expensive and taxes will be "non-trivial."
Thank you for re-stating what I said in a more moderate way. I’m not always good at being moderate.

In addition to the CA CS scene, there are software developers in other parts of the world. Citadel (Chicago) for example, pays well for software developers. NYC has a number of well paying jobs in the finance industry.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Nyc10036
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Nyc10036 »

cshell2 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:45 am Hated his first college chem class so much that he doesn't want to step foot in another one ever again.
Chem 101 labs were the pits when I was in college.
4 hours to do 5-6 hours of work.
I almost never completed the entire lab even though we were suppose to prepare for it before.

.
cshell2
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by cshell2 »

Nyc10036 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:44 am Chem 101 labs were the pits when I was in college.
They're even more fun this year as they're doing their labs in their dorm rooms. :oops:
Afty
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Afty »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:22 am
random_walker_77 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:05 am Relax, all that's being said is avoid absolute statements, but you both have points. The average new college grad salary for CS, in california, is 67K. The average new college graduate salary for Stanford CS grads is 127K. (source for both: https://www.collegefactual.com/majors/c ... alifornia/)

For the very best students, and adding in the value of equity compensation, the total comp can reach 200+K. That's almost never going to be from salary, but rather be due to large amounts of stock-based compensation (which is subject to risk). Prior to covid, it also meant living in the SF Bay Area, so rent will be expensive and taxes will be "non-trivial."
Thank you for re-stating what I said in a more moderate way. I’m not always good at being moderate.

In addition to the CA CS scene, there are software developers in other parts of the world. Citadel (Chicago) for example, pays well for software developers. NYC has a number of well paying jobs in the finance industry.
Another set of data points: https://www.levels.fyi/company/Google/s ... gineer/L3/. L3 is the fresh-out-of-undergrad level at Google. You can filter by location if you want to see how this varies based on geography.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Afty wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:11 am Another set of data points: https://www.levels.fyi/company/Google/s ... gineer/L3/. L3 is the fresh-out-of-undergrad level at Google. You can filter by location if you want to see how this varies based on geography.
Fascinating. I’ve often heard of Levels, but haven’t spent any time there.

I can’t complain, but things sure are looking up for software types (I’m well past my “sell by date.”)

Thank you Afty.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Afty »

I just want to echo what others have said here, as a former hiring manager at a FAANG company. Software engineering is very egalitarian when it comes to schooling. Where I worked, school would help you get an initial phone screen but was completely irrelevant once you started the interview process. All that mattered at that point was how well you could solve coding problems on the whiteboard. A number of the best people I worked with at that company went to schools I’d never heard of, and some had no degree at all.

I say this as someone who went to an HYPS and would love to be able to say it mattered. But I don’t think I can honestly say that.
almostretired1965
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by almostretired1965 »

This is just a guess on my part, but I think the offer out of college also depends on what else you have accomplished outside of school. Fact of the matters is that while the stuff you learn in a CS program is foundational and useful for your career, particularly in the long run, they don't really teach you what you need to know in the short run to be a software engineer. (Would you want someone who just graduated from med school to do open heart surgery on you?) That is one reason why a good coding camp is real value added if you have zero experience in the industry. It seems to me that if you've done nothing significant outside of coursework, I have a hard time seeing why even the FAANGs of the world would pay you $200K to start, but maybe I'm wrong .......

A
TomatoTomahto wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:22 am
random_walker_77 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:05 am Relax, all that's being said is avoid absolute statements, but you both have points. The average new college grad salary for CS, in california, is 67K. The average new college graduate salary for Stanford CS grads is 127K. (source for both: https://www.collegefactual.com/majors/c ... alifornia/)

For the very best students, and adding in the value of equity compensation, the total comp can reach 200+K. That's almost never going to be from salary, but rather be due to large amounts of stock-based compensation (which is subject to risk). Prior to covid, it also meant living in the SF Bay Area, so rent will be expensive and taxes will be "non-trivial."
Thank you for re-stating what I said in a more moderate way. I’m not always good at being moderate.

In addition to the CA CS scene, there are software developers in other parts of the world. Citadel (Chicago) for example, pays well for software developers. NYC has a number of well paying jobs in the finance industry.
MMiroir
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by MMiroir »

Afty wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:11 amAnother set of data points: https://www.levels.fyi/company/Google/s ... gineer/L3/. L3 is the fresh-out-of-undergrad level at Google. You can filter by location if you want to see how this varies based on geography.
If you filter the results for Pittsburg where CMU is located, the average base salary is $106,625 which is not that much different from what Parabola stated earlier.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by stoptothink »

cshell2 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:55 am
Nyc10036 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:44 am Chem 101 labs were the pits when I was in college.
They're even more fun this year as they're doing their labs in their dorm rooms. :oops:
I heard this the other day from a colleague whose son is a microbiology major at University of Michigan :oops: The school is even sending students propaganda about how awesome dorm room labs are.
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HanSolo
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by HanSolo »

Afty wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:24 am I just want to echo what others have said here, as a former hiring manager at a FAANG company. Software engineering is very egalitarian when it comes to schooling. Where I worked, school would help you get an initial phone screen but was completely irrelevant once you started the interview process. All that mattered at that point was how well you could solve coding problems on the whiteboard. A number of the best people I worked with at that company went to schools I’d never heard of, and some had no degree at all.
Someone upthread said there's a difference between a software engineer and a programmer. I agree with that. The bolded sentence indicates how you'd hire a technician, not an engineer.

Think about what matters and what doesn't matter in interviews for high-level professionals that are not computing-related (and if you don't know, ask people involved in those kinds of interviews). There are a variety of things that matter quite a lot, other than your performance on typical work tasks during an interview. Why don't those things matter in hiring at FAANG companies?

To anyone who's interested in making their career in that sector, consider what matters to you, in terms of what kind of contributions you want to make and what qualities you think should be valued in a professional. Then think about whether the sector you're looking at shares your values. How do you want to be treated?
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quantAndHold
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by quantAndHold »

ualdriver wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:36 pm My primary concern with Michigan Tech is that it is ssssoooo far away from civilization. I thought it was a great school, but my concern is that when it comes to internship time, he's away from big cities (like Chicago). Perhaps he will miss internship opportunities, for example, that a kid from Univ of IL Chicago might have being "so close" to a big city (and future jobs?) Perhaps my concerns aren't well founded.

I posed the question to a CS admin person at Michigan Tech and she disagreed with me. She said that potential employers come to Michigan Tech to recruit THEIR students every year. Of course, she's biased too. She's got classes to fill.
I was a hiring manager for a FAANG. I never personally went on a recruiting trip to that school, but I wouldn’t have, because I’m not from that part of the country. Companies usually either send alums, or people from the same general region who want an excuse to go back and see friends and family.

Anyway, the person you talked to is right, the recruiters come to the school. If they like your kid in the campus interview, they’ll fly them out to company HQ to interview in person.

Internships are summer internships based wherever the company is. When we hired summer interns, we did it with an online coding test and a phone interview. No in person interview required. Basically, the internship is the job interview for the post college job, so they didn’t put a lot of effort into getting the right intern for the right job. They just brought in a few thousand interns, gave them assignments, and saw how they did.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by quantAndHold »

Monsterflockster wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:16 pm Does college really matter for being a programmer? Most come from out of the country.
Most foreign born software engineers working in the US either have masters degrees in CS from a US university, or 4+ year CS degrees and work experience in their home country.

It’s possible to get a software engineering job without a four year degree in CS or something similar. But self taught software engineers tend to be pretty extraordinary individuals, and even then, it usually involves a fairly roundabout path and the person who does his will be behind on pay and promotions for a decade or more. It’s an easier path to just get the degree.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by fwellimort »

Parabola wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:00 am CS salaries are NOT in the high 150s as posted by someone. Its absolutely ridiculous and a giant exaggeration! My child graduated a semester early from CMU in CS, the offers he received were ALL in high 90s and low 100s with a 3.44 CGPA

NOBODY is paying 200k to a 21 year old
It really depends when your son graduated. The pay of Software Engineers in the tech world burst only very recently.

Anyways, for CMU Class of 2019:
https://www.cmu.edu/career/about-us/sal ... dated.html
Average: $120,253
Median: $118,000
Range: $55k ~ $200k
Out of 71 people who wrote numbers on their surveys:
24 to Facebook
15 to Google
8 to Amazon
11 to Microsoft
Some of these companies pay a larger starting bonus and/or give RSU (stocks).
Those who are able to work at these tech companies get paid far more once you factor in the total compensation.

Total Compensation New Grads:
https://www.levels.fyi/
Google: $189,927 ($130,248 Salary, $39,354 Stocks, $20,325 Bonus)
Facebook: $180,309 ($121,873 Salary, $43,391 Stocks, $15,045 Bonus)
etc. etc. You can look up the numbers yourself.
L3: Year 0~2 $189,927 TC
L4: Year 2~5 $266,141 TC
L5: Year 5~ $351,347 TC
Absolutely crazy if you think about it. Earning over a third of a million dollars by early 30s.

That said, tech companies are hard to get in even at top schools.
I assume only like half of CS students at CMU will get these tech salaries.
The rest half you can cut the salary by $20k, remove the entire stocks portion, and cut bonus by half.
Lots of it is just pure Luck (pray for getting an Interview) + Leetcode grind/luck (pray for questions to be ones you seen before).
If you get a question like Burst Balloon and haven't ever seen such question before, then regardless of how talented you are, you probably are getting rejected for the job.
I know a few peers who are at Google who took the bare minimum at college and spent the rest of time in college just grinding Leetcode. It works.

And of course the closer to 'start up' companies are much harder to get into: Airbnb, Robinhood, Quora, Lyft, etc. regardless of their financial situations. I believe companies like AirBnb and Lyft pays $240k total out of college. No wonder many of these companies are unprofitable.
As for institutions like Two Sigma, Jane Street, Hudson River Trading, Citadel, DE Shaw, etc., those are just different level altogether.
Then there's GoogleX, etc.. Haven't seen any of my peers (I graduated from Columbia Univ in NY) get into those. But I see MIT career placement has like 1 person every other year.

From what I know:
As long as your school is somewhat reputable (public or private), then Amazon will give you a chance to interview.
Amazon is basically mass hire and mass fire type so a lot of people will get the 'chance'. Amazon is always the running joke for selling soul for Lord Bezos.
Maybe Google and Microsoft too might give a chance to do the coding challenge (no guarantees cause so many CS majors nowadays).
Apple I have no idea. Apple after all never responded to my peers when I was in college.
Facebook is known to hire disproportionately from top schools out of college.
As for tech startups/unicorns/whatever hipster it is, they hire very very disproportionately from top schools cause every student out of college wants to work in companies like Square.
And for high frequency trading firms and the like... let's use common sense.

So realistically, those who attend state flagships can get into Amazon/Microsoft. Google too if you attend a state flagship known for CS.
The rest of the tech companies out of college I would say prestige matters a lot to get the annoying online coding challenge.
Last edited by fwellimort on Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:48 am, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by TheHiker »

Parabola wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:00 am CS salaries are NOT in the high 150s as posted by someone. Its absolutely ridiculous and a giant exaggeration! My child graduated a semester early from CMU in CS, the offers he received were ALL in high 90s and low 100s with a 3.44 CGPA

NOBODY is paying 200k to a 21 year old
Compensation is highly dependent on location and employer and for tech companies typically includes things like bonuses and RSUs on top of the salary.
Large tech companies in coastal locations are paying college grads upwards of 150K. 200K offer would certainly be above average, but not unheard of.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by lunean »

I went to Michigan Tech 30 some years ago. I loved it there. It's a beautiful area. One really nice thing is that very few students live near enough to go home for weekends, so the campus is full of activities for the students. They do a good job making the most of the snow. It's cold, but not as cold as Wisconsin or Minnesota, due to the lake. But they do get a ton of snow.

We never seemed to have a difficult time finding summer internships or co-op experiences. Many companies came to recruit. My data point is very outdated, but it would surprise me if there weren't still opportunities.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by gips »

op, congrats to your son! focusing on fit at this point seems like the correct approach. My S ended up at a big ten school, wasnt much of a sports fan in hs but now joins alumni at sports bars in nyc to watch games. i guess my advice is all things being equal, don’t underestimate the value of school spirit and a large, loyal alumni.

i suppose i should end a post like this with:
Go Blue!
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by nigel_ht »

HanSolo wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:05 pm
Afty wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:24 am I just want to echo what others have said here, as a former hiring manager at a FAANG company. Software engineering is very egalitarian when it comes to schooling. Where I worked, school would help you get an initial phone screen but was completely irrelevant once you started the interview process. All that mattered at that point was how well you could solve coding problems on the whiteboard. A number of the best people I worked with at that company went to schools I’d never heard of, and some had no degree at all.
Someone upthread said there's a difference between a software engineer and a programmer. I agree with that. The bolded sentence indicates how you'd hire a technician, not an engineer.

Think about what matters and what doesn't matter in interviews for high-level professionals that are not computing-related (and if you don't know, ask people involved in those kinds of interviews).
A fresh out developer isn’t a “high level” professional so coding tests are relevant. They are entry level professionals.

Nobody needs a fresh out software engineer. You largely do not need software engineers below a level of complexity or size. You may want one as a project lead or architect as you approach that size.

I am involved with interviewing for critical embedded software. I have a masters in software engineering.

Coding is the most relevant skill for entry level developers. They won’t be doing a lot of “engineering” the first couple years at a FAANG. Some low level design work at most but primarily implementation.

Now in a startup you do get to do more stuff out of necessity.

Now personally I think whiteboard coding tests kinda dumb. Probably because I would do terrible at them...I think that in front of a keyboard pairs programming I get more insight. And many places have that or something similar for coding tests.
There are a variety of things that matter quite a lot, other than your performance on typical work tasks during an interview. Why don't those things matter in hiring at FAANG companies?
The reality is most will only stay a few years (Google averages 3 year retention) and you can generally pick from the cream of your interns.

So short term coding productivity is the most important metric.
To anyone who's interested in making their career in that sector, consider what matters to you, in terms of what kind of contributions you want to make and what qualities you think should be valued in a professional. Then think about whether the sector you're looking at shares your values. How do you want to be treated?
Meh. You do 2-3 years at a FAANG and once that’s on your resume you move to a job with better work life balance.

Having that as your first job will get employers interested and willing to pay you top dollar as they assume that even wash outs are a higher quality than most of their other candidates.

Why do you believe that most fresh outs from college are any more equipped to know what major contributions they will want to make any more than most high school grads have any idea what major they really want to pursue?

Sure, the kids that go top tier universities, intern at FAANG and get a job at a FAANG will generally have a better idea (or at least think they do) since they are driven achievers but most kids?

A job that “shares your values” is a first world luxury and generally you’ll get taken advantage of. Take for example game companies...they can pay their developers crap, work them to death and not care because there are a dozen more applicants that “share their values” of bringing the next cool AAA game to market.

You can work for a NASA contractor with a good work life balance that’s not all that innovative, working with 20 year old technology and a risk adverse culture or you can work for SpaceX with only moderately better pay, no RSUs, a crappy work life balance but with cutting edge technology and innovation that expects to blow up a lot.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by DIYtrixie »

I've been following this thread with interest because my own high school senior is coming down to the wire with his college selection process. He's broadly interested in engineering and computer science. Amongst the places he's been accepted, his top two choices are Purdue engineering (Honors College) and Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology. I cannot imagine two colleges more different from each other, in every respect other than their physical locations (small towns in Indiana). My spouse and I are both in STEM fields but not alums of either one. Neither of us had heard of RoseH until the college application ball started rolling, but the more we look, the more impressed we become.

Would love to hear feedback from the BH engineering/CS brain trust on the pros/cons of these schools. If this is too thread-jack-y, please say so and I'll start a separate thread.

ETA: Due to financial aid and scholarships, costs for either are about the same, so this is not a deciding factor.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by TomatoTomahto »

I have heard more good things about RoseH than I would expect for a school of its size.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by HanSolo »

nigel_ht wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:53 am A fresh out developer isn’t a “high level” professional so coding tests are relevant. They are entry level professionals.
I grew up in the inner city and was the first in my family to work in a salaried position. So I guess I failed to adjust my way of communicating to the Bogleheads audience, which may have a different idea of "high level". My bad.
Now personally I think whiteboard coding tests kinda dumb.
That was the gist of my post. I was never a hiring manager, but I was a senior engineer who helped interview prospective hires (although we didn't hire fresh out of college). This was in a different century. We had whiteboards, but we didn't do whiteboard coding tests, although sometimes there were questions like how you'd approach a certain kind of problem. What I would do is try to assess the candidate's technical knowledge and background, their ability to communicate about it, and generally try to get a sense of their intelligence, their professional manner, and what inspires them. I think these are things one would try to assess in any candidate at a professional level (forget about "high level"). I can't understand why people in FAANG companies no longer think any of that matters (as the FAANG person I responded to had indicated).

I once heard that at one FAANG company (I think it was Google), candidates get weeded out via an online coding test before they get an interview with a human.

When I heard that, my thought was, robots hire robots, and people hire people.

To those who aspire to work in that environment, I can only say, be careful what you wish for. I'm not saying don't do it, just be aware. That's all I meant to say or imply.
Why do you believe that most fresh outs from college are any more equipped to know what major contributions they will want to make any more than most high school grads have any idea what major they really want to pursue?
Back in the 80s, before everybody and their dog wanted to be in computers, software and networking, I knew (even fresh out of college) that I wanted to work on product development in the area of computer networking. I did not have a shortage of job offers. I think the managers who interviewed me appreciated that I knew what I wanted to do (at least at a general level) and that it was in line with what their company was about. I have no belief about whether or not most grads have any idea what they want to do. I was only advocating the idea that one might want to be regarded as a person and not a robot. I'm grateful that I was treated like a person back in those days.
Last edited by HanSolo on Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Afty »

HanSolo wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:18 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:53 am A fresh out developer isn’t a “high level” professional so coding tests are relevant. They are entry level professionals.
I grew up in the inner city and was the first in my family to work in a salaried position. So I guess I failed to adjust my way of communicating to the Bogleheads audience, which may have a different idea of "high level". My bad.
Now personally I think whiteboard coding tests kinda dumb.
That was the gist of my post. I was never a hiring manager, but I was a senior engineer who helped interview prospective hires (although we didn't hire fresh out of college). This was in a different century. We had whiteboards, but we didn't do whiteboard coding tests, although sometimes there were questions like how you'd approach a certain kind of problem. What I would do is try to assess the candidate's technical knowledge and background, their ability to communicate about it, and generally try to get a sense of their intelligence, their professional manner, and what inspires them. I think these are things one would try to assess in any candidate at a professional level (forget about "high level"). I can't understand why people in FAANG companies no longer think any of that matters (as the FAANG person I responded to had indicated).

I once heard that at one FAANG company (I think it was Google), candidates get weeded out via an online coding test before they get an interview with a human.

When I heard that, my thought was, robots hire robots, and people hire people.

To those who aspire to work in that environment, I can only say, be careful what you wish for. I'm not saying don't do it, just be aware. That's all I meant to say or imply.
To be clear, I don't disagree with you, but I didn't create the hiring process at a trillion dollar company, and I didn't have any say over it either. One time I gave an interview without a coding question , then got negative feedback about it by my manager. It was a pretty big deal that could have required the candidate to be flown back in for an extra interview.

I will only say that the interview process didn't reflect what it was like to actually work at that company. It was just a hoop you had to jump through to get hired.

There is even some evidence that these whiteboard coding interviews are biased against women and minorities: https://www.wsj.com/articles/tech-compa ... 1615212029
Last edited by Afty on Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by MMiroir »

DIYtrixie wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:53 pm I've been following this thread with interest because my own high school senior is coming down to the wire with his college selection process. He's broadly interested in engineering and computer science. Amongst the places he's been accepted, his top two choices are Purdue engineering (Honors College) and Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology. I cannot imagine two colleges more different from each other, in every respect other than their physical locations (small towns in Indiana). My spouse and I are both in STEM fields but not alums of either one. Neither of us had heard of RoseH until the college application ball started rolling, but the more we look, the more impressed we become.

Would love to hear feedback from the BH engineering/CS brain trust on the pros/cons of these schools. If this is too thread-jack-y, please say so and I'll start a separate thread.

ETA: Due to financial aid and scholarships, costs for either are about the same, so this is not a deciding factor.
Purdue probably wins out on a social basis as they have better sports (Big 10) and more girls (43% female) compared to RH (24% female). However, the average starting salary for Rose-Hulman CS graduates is $111,992, while the average starting salary for Purdue CS majors is $68,499. That is a big difference. You can look that up on https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/.

You can also get more detail on the individual programs via the ASEE website.

https://shinyapps.asee.org/apps/Profiles%20App/
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by dale77 »

MMiroir wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:37 pm Purdue probably wins out on a social basis as they have better sports (Big 10) and more girls (43% female) compared to RH (24% female). However, the average starting salary for Rose-Hulman CS graduates is $111,992, while the average starting salary for Purdue CS majors is $68,499. That is a big difference. You can look that up on https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/.
Just to clarify, Purdue's average CS salary is $86k on College Scorecard, not $68k. And if you average the past two years, R-H is "only" ahead of Purdue by $15k instead of $25k. But still.

We toured R-H over spring break and were quite impressed. Our CS-interested son still has another year-plus until he starts applying to schools, but I'm pretty sure it'll be high on his list.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by fwellimort »

HanSolo wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:18 pm I once heard that at one FAANG company (I think it was Google), candidates get weeded out via an online coding test before they get an interview with a human.

When I heard that, my thought was, robots hire robots, and people hire people.
It's mostly because there's no shortage of motivated students (at the top level) in the world who wants to break into this field regardless of the media constantly raving about lack of STEM majors.

If these large tech companies start practicing "less merit" format interviews, then these tech companies would be sued to oblivion by the public.
The "coding challenge" is the response to a "more objective" interview format which can be scaled at low cost.
Ironically, these interviews aren't even merit based. Your resume has to first pass the initial screening (probably be computers) to even be considered for the online assessment. And it's after the online assessment (if you do well) that an actual recruiter bothers to look at your resume for a few seconds. You could ace the online assessment and still have no responses (just a waste of time for you). If you are lucky enough to be 'passed' by the recruiter, then you start the "actual" interview process. Generally, this is like one or two phone coding interviews. Then you go onsite to solve even more coding interview questions for the entire day.
Basically, let's say you are given 8 random Leetcode puzzle questions that have no relevance to the real world and if you forget to solve a single problem (e.g.: you forgot the pattern), then you can kiss goodbye to the job regardless of how talented you are in real life.

It's very robotic for sure (and very random). But it is a practice done such that tech firms don't get sued for discrimination (more than they are already). The ideas like "leadership", "social", "creative", etc. can't be tested objectively especially in a short period of time. A test needs to be standardized so it's as "fair" as possible. And that's what these Leetcode style coding challenges are.
(They are more fair than back in the days of "how many hamsters can you fill in an airplane" <= what does this have to do with the job in the first place)

Coding interviews for tech jobs are basically the SAT of the entry software development role.
And as you get more experienced, there's 'System Design' interview on top. Yay...

Unfortunately, many companies (even outside large firms) are following the same practice now.
So it's not even something the younger generation can avoid.

You attend a reputable school so you can hopefully get the robotic hackerrank test (in which an overwhelming number of students simply cheat through looking at the solutions online).
And from there, it's all on luck (and your willingness to grind Leetcode).
You can be a racist loner who gets all C-'s in college and someone no one wants to hang out with and that wouldn't matter if you are amazing at Leetcode. If you somehow land the phone interview, you have a much better chance of getting the job offer over an all A student who is fun to hang out with simply cause you can regurgitate the Leetcode solutions better.

The entire system is quite nonsensical. But it is what it is.
That said, the school you attend is still important to get that robotic online Hackerrank challenge e-mail.
Truly a weird world we live in. :confused
Why not just give the online coding challenge to everyone by default. Why not just make an explicit SAT for software engineers so software engineers can just post that 'test score' on their resumes. Where is College Board on all this potential money. Who knows.

Ironically, many of these companies with 'robotic style' recruiting tend to be some of the best places to work out of college. Many non-tech companies still think of software engineers as cost centers and so you will be treated more as a second class citizen than at a tech firm in which you are the 'first class citizen' of the workforce.
So maybe all this nonsensical hiring is actually sensical. It seems to work.
Last edited by fwellimort on Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:33 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by MMiroir »

dale77 wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:58 pm
MMiroir wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:37 pm Purdue probably wins out on a social basis as they have better sports (Big 10) and more girls (43% female) compared to RH (24% female). However, the average starting salary for Rose-Hulman CS graduates is $111,992, while the average starting salary for Purdue CS majors is $68,499. That is a big difference. You can look that up on https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/.
Just to clarify, Purdue's average CS salary is $86k on College Scorecard, not $68k. And if you average the past two years, R-H is "only" ahead of Purdue by $15k instead of $25k. But still.

We toured R-H over spring break and were quite impressed. Our CS-interested son still has another year-plus until he starts applying to schools, but I'm pretty sure it'll be high on his list.
You are correct. I pulled the starting salary for Computer and Information Sciences which is $68,499. Computer Science at Purdue is $85,981.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by gatorking »

DIYtrixie wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:53 pm I've been following this thread with interest because my own high school senior is coming down to the wire with his college selection process. He's broadly interested in engineering and computer science. Amongst the places he's been accepted, his top two choices are Purdue engineering (Honors College) and Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology. I cannot imagine two colleges more different from each other, in every respect other than their physical locations (small towns in Indiana). My spouse and I are both in STEM fields but not alums of either one. Neither of us had heard of RoseH until the college application ball started rolling, but the more we look, the more impressed we become.

Would love to hear feedback from the BH engineering/CS brain trust on the pros/cons of these schools. If this is too thread-jack-y, please say so and I'll start a separate thread.

ETA: Due to financial aid and scholarships, costs for either are about the same, so this is not a deciding factor.
My 2 cents - select the one with the better Alumni network
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Nyc10036 »

DIYtrixie wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:53 pm I've been following this thread with interest because my own high school senior is coming down to the wire with his college selection process. He's broadly interested in engineering and computer science. Amongst the places he's been accepted, his top two choices are Purdue engineering (Honors College) and Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology. I cannot imagine two colleges more different from each other, in every respect other than their physical locations (small towns in Indiana). My spouse and I are both in STEM fields but not alums of either one. Neither of us had heard of RoseH until the college application ball started rolling, but the more we look, the more impressed we become.

Would love to hear feedback from the BH engineering/CS brain trust on the pros/cons of these schools. If this is too thread-jack-y, please say so and I'll start a separate thread.

ETA: Due to financial aid and scholarships, costs for either are about the same, so this is not a deciding factor.
I wouldn't choose a school based on alumni network.
That's just me.
I went to University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign.
BSEE
I would strongly influence anyone who asks to choose a school like Purdue with the variety.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by HanSolo »

fwellimort wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:19 pm It's very robotic for sure (and very random). But it is a practice done such that tech firms don't get sued for discrimination (more than they are already). The ideas like "leadership", "social", "creative", etc. can't be tested objectively especially in a short period of time. A test needs to be standardized so it's as "fair" as possible. And that's what these Leetcode style coding challenges are.
I guess that means they're getting sued left and right whenever they hire people into marketing, sales, legal, HR, PR, etc. (anything that doesn't involve coding)... and companies in other industries are getting sued left and right when they hire mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, chemists, accountants, actuaries... or what? Whatever the case, I hope there are still some professions where the hiring process has not been robotified.
(They are more fair than back in the days of "how many hamsters can you fill in an airplane" <= what does this have to do with the job in the first place)
This was not something I asked when I interviewed people. We had a process that worked well for us. In my opinion, we had an ability back then that's been lost.
The entire system is quite nonsensical. But it is what it is.
That's my observation. This brings me back to my original point. If I were starting out today and deciding on a career, one question I might consider is, in what industries are people still treated like people. There must be some left.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by DIYtrixie »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:12 pm I have heard more good things about RoseH than I would expect for a school of its size.
It’s surprising, isn’t it? I’d never heard of it before a few years ago but the more we learn, the more substance we find. I’m stunned at the idea of a general chemistry class with only 30 students. The alumni network sounds like an incredibly tight-knit, supportive group.

Son isn’t much into sports nor girls. I seriously doubt he’d leave the engineering/CS majors, but anything’s possible. I thought Terre Haute’s extremely small size would be a bigger turn-off than it was.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Gattamelata »

HanSolo wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:18 pm That's my observation. This brings me back to my original point. If I were starting out today and deciding on a career, one question I might consider is, in what industries are people still treated like people. There must be some left.
There are. Including parts of the tech world. The automated meat grinder style of hiring is popular in big business and in popular companies as a way to make sense of the sea of resumes that are sent to them. The idiosyncratic, unexamined, arrogant, and dangerous "we only hire smart people" approach that a lot of younger tech companies take is emblematic of an industry that thinks of itself as reinventing the world. But tech has been around longer than this millennium and not all tech companies are huge. My own career in tech startups, small and mid-size consulting companies, and academic tech has mostly avoided the selection process that fwellimort describes. It's definitely possible to find work in the field where one is treated as a person.

To be sure, I have encountered a few inane interview questions (including some truly stupid "puzzle" questions), and I have been asked to do some whiteboard coding, and one tech megacorp interviewer absolutely lost her cool when I wouldn't accept that my role in the room was to "impress" her. Company culture at tech megacorps in particular can be extremely confining because of the way that founder-CEOs tend to be lionized within the company.

But there are parts of the industry (and parts of those tech megacorps) where decency and humanity count, where eyes are cast further than the next quarterly statement, and where hiring is more about skills and team dynamics than about checking arbitrary boxes designed to approximate "qualifications."
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Afty »

I’ll reemphasize that the hiring process did not reflect the day to day experience of working at that company. You only need to look at any of those “best companies to work for” lists to see that. A personal anecdote: when COVID hit and we all were forced to work from home, parents especially struggled without childcare. The company gave all parents 14 weeks of paid “carer's leave” to take care of their children. You might think this would hurt your performance rating, but the reality was the opposite — carer's leave was considered protected leave, and managers were instructed to scale expectations to the time worked. As a manager I personally saw this policy being applied.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by fwellimort »

Afty wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:00 pm I’ll reemphasize that the hiring process did not reflect the day to day experience of working at that company. You only need to look at any of those “best companies to work for” lists to see that.
fwellimort wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:19 pm Ironically, many of these companies with 'robotic style' recruiting tend to be some of the best places to work out of college. Many non-tech companies still think of software engineers as cost centers and so you will be treated more as a second class citizen than at a tech firm in which you are the 'first class citizen' of the workforce.
So maybe all this nonsensical hiring is actually sensical. It seems to work.
Ya. It's a weird system.
The happiest peers I know out of college work at firms that practice Leetcode style interviews.

It's like college. SAT grind in and of itself after a certain threshold isn't of much help to doing well in college.
But... it's a standardized system that you just got to do if you want to apply to more competitive schools.

There's nothing to fear for college students. Just got to buckle down for some time and grind those questions like they have done so with SATs.
If they get something like 'Fancy Sequence' in a phone screen of 30 minutes, then oh well. Life is life.
There are some horrible interviewers out there. My phone interviewer for Adobe gave me misleading suggestions throughout the coding challenge (literally told me not to do X just for him to question me why I didn't use X at the end ???).
Adobe as a company however is known for great work life balance and all. Just oh well.
All my friends who work at Google didn't get dynamic programming problems. All my other friends who didn't get into Google got dynamic programming problems on onsite.
Just accept there's randomness and luck involved after a certain threshold. But I wouldn't encourage new grads to give up the grind before even trying.
TheHiker
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by TheHiker »

fwellimort wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:19 pm Ironically, many of these companies with 'robotic style' recruiting tend to be some of the best places to work out of college. Many non-tech companies still think of software engineers as cost centers and so you will be treated more as a second class citizen than at a tech firm in which you are the 'first class citizen' of the workforce.
So maybe all this nonsensical hiring is actually sensical. It seems to work.
Coding challenges were implemented as a necessity. They are an equivalent of a standardized test. The amount of nepotism in some tech companies is over the board (where people are hired based on connections rather than skills).
The "best places" have implemented this to hire people based on skills (not necessarily the skills relevant to the actual job). Now other places have copied it too and the candidates have figured out how to "prepare to the test" with leetcode cramming so it is becoming less meaningful, but not less common.
SlowMovingInvestor
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by SlowMovingInvestor »

fwellimort wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:01 pm
Total Compensation New Grads:
https://www.levels.fyi/
Isn't there a selection bias in some of these sites -- in that those who get the highest salaries are most likely to report ? Just as people are more likely to report their stock picks that did well..

In response to another comment in the thread, I'm not sure what's happened in the last year with COVID, but Google did not use automated interviews with HackerRank or the equivalent a few years back (although it may be different for fresh grads or those with just a few years experience). They did have whiteboard coding interviews.
TheHiker
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by TheHiker »

SlowMovingInvestor wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:35 pm
fwellimort wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:01 pm
Total Compensation New Grads:
https://www.levels.fyi/
Isn't there a selection bias in some of these sites -- in that those who get the highest salaries are most likely to report ? Just as people are more likely to report their stock picks that did well..
There probably is a bias. But the packages for new grads are fairly standardized as people generally have similar background (i.e. zero industry experience) so the numbers are not very far off from each other.
Some folks are able to negotiate better terms by getting competing offers so the numbers may be skewed toward these. But for the major tech companies they are in the ballpark in my experience.
an_asker
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by an_asker »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:22 am
random_walker_77 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:05 am Relax, all that's being said is avoid absolute statements, but you both have points. The average new college grad salary for CS, in california, is 67K. The average new college graduate salary for Stanford CS grads is 127K. (source for both: https://www.collegefactual.com/majors/c ... alifornia/)

For the very best students, and adding in the value of equity compensation, the total comp can reach 200+K. That's almost never going to be from salary, but rather be due to large amounts of stock-based compensation (which is subject to risk). Prior to covid, it also meant living in the SF Bay Area, so rent will be expensive and taxes will be "non-trivial."
Thank you for re-stating what I said in a more moderate way. I’m not always good at being moderate.

In addition to the CA CS scene, there are software developers in other parts of the world. Citadel (Chicago) for example, pays well for software developers. NYC has a number of well paying jobs in the finance industry.
Not taking sides here, but this is a CS thread, so we need to use logic.

So, TT is right!

If you make a statement with "NOBODY yada yada yada", and if I can find or know of even "ONE BODY yada yada yada", your statement is demonstrated as false.

That's all TT said!!
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