Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

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ualdriver
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Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by ualdriver »

Boglehead Brain Trust:

My son and I are starting to look at colleges and universities. He wants to major in Computer Science. He's currently a junior in HS. He's a good student. He's not getting into a top tier college, but he does pretty well and we're happy with his academics (31 ACT composite w/35 math, all AP & Honors courses, B+ student, STEM related extra-curricular activities) I started a spreadsheet using US News and World Report (USNWR) College Rankings for Computer Science as a baseline, crosschecking many of the schools against Google searches and other college "ranking" sites. Below I copied from my spreadsheet a rough "ranking" of schools (at least according to the websites I've consulted). I realize rankings are incredibly, incredibly subjective, hence my questions here. To the left of each college is the annual tuition posted "sticker price" from USNWR.

I realize there are many successful professionals in this industry on this forum. I was wondering what we should be looking for in a Computer Science program? What should we be thinking about? What can we use as discriminators, besides the obvious GPA, ACT, SAT scores that will get a kid admitted in the first place? Should he simply be trying to get into the most competitive school that will take him?

Further, as I initially look at these tuition prices, they vary quite a bit. Even if my kid could get into a University of Chicago at $59,000 (which he doesn't have the grades for anyway), is a high priced, seemingly highly ranked school like this worth the money over a Georgia Tech, for example, that "only" charges $34K/year and also appears to have a great Computer Science program?

As an IL resident, he has Univ of IL Champaign as a choice (not sure if he could get in, very competitive program) or a choice like IL State University (not very competitive I think). IL State would only cost me $14K/year in tuition, but appears to have a "lower" ranked Computer Science program. Is it worth the money to pay $30K, $40K, or $50K per year for a "higher" ranked Computer Science program if he could get in vs. going to IL State for $14K per year, for example? And I guess what I should really say, is it worth it for ME to be paying these higher tuition costs since I will be footing the bill! I just don't want to waste MY money : )

Your advice is appreciated. Also, if I'm missed some schools, feel free to point out programs that you think we should examine. Thanks for your time in advance!

51,870 Princeton
57,280 Williams College
58,640 Amherst College
51,900 Harvard
53700 MIT
59000 Univ of Chicago
56,700 Northwestern
57,700 Univ. of PA
54,600 CA Institue of Tech
57,200 Dartmouth
58,400 Brown
52,000 Vanderbilt
57222 Cornell
49100 Rice
55,200 Washington Uinversity in St. Louis
42,200 UCLA
53,800 Emory
43176 Berkely
58,200 USC
56000 Georgetown
57,100 Carnegie Mellon
53300 NYU
51200 Univ. Of Mich Ann Arbor
50920 Univ. of VA, Charlottesville
33794 Georgia Inst of Tech
58600 Tufts
36,200 UNC Chapel Hill
56000 Univ. of Rochester
43,400 Univ of CA Irvine
43,100 Univ of CA San Diego
56000 B.U.
57,500 Brandeis
51,000 Case Western
46,200 William and Mary
37,785 Univ of WI, Madison
56,800 Tulane
16,000 U of I Champaign
55,200 Lehigh
55,400 Rensaillier
31,100 University of GA
43,000 Centre College
56,390 Gettysburg College
29,000 Purdue
51,900 Univ of MIA
33,700 Univ of PIT
38,700 Univ of Wash
56,500 Southern Methodist
39,800 Univ. of Connectcut
36,900 Univ. Maryland College Park
35,700 U Mass Amherst
52300 Worchester Poly Tech
33,325 Univerisyt of MN Twin Cities
45,710 Wofford College
54,014 Stevens Inst of Tech
49,889 American University
5,790 Brigham Young
47,364 Baylor University
27,791 Binghampton SUNY
47,000 Earlham College
54,000 Wheaton College
39,762 Coloardo School of Mines
29,220 NC State Univ Raleigh
unk Bennington College
unk Hendrix College
52,515 Univerisity of Denver
45,890 Rochester Inst. Of Tech
49000 IL Institue of Tech
43,690 University of Vermont
49,527 Rose Hultman Inst of Tech
********************************
schools below asterisk do not have a linear relationship to those above
24508 Iowa State
41202 Depaul
14816 Univ. of IL Chicago
14516 IL State University
14904 SIU Carbondale
14610 N IL Univ
Florida Institute of Tech
Harvey Mudd
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AerialWombat
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by AerialWombat »

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mega317
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by mega317 »

You are way in the weeds. Why is Chicago on your spreadsheet if he can't get in?

The first thing I would do is choose a part or parts of the country he wants to live. And what type of school/campus. Narrow this list down to like 10-15. There can't be a huge overlap in people considering USC and Rensselaer. Or BYU and UNC. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

I would also consider, if Champaign is a good program that he likes, that if he goes there you'll give him in cash some percentage of the difference between that and these other tuition numbers.
multiham
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by multiham »

My replies are never very popular on this subject

Just went through the same type of search with my son who is in his freshmen year studying business.

1. I told him Exactly how much I had saved in the 529 plan and if he went above that, it was going to be covered by loans he would need to pay
2. Had him research the schools and come up with a list of 5 or 6 schools that he was interested in and that he had at least a chance of getting into.
3. I let him figure out what was important to him in terms of location, size, sports, culture, etc. I believe this is critical
4. Visited his top 5 schools. He knew instantly what school he wanted to go to when he took the tour. I'm there to separate the schools marketing from reality.

Many on here will tell you to go to the in-state school, save the $ for an advanced degree. My goal was to have him be happy and to set him up for future success. So far his grades are higher than what he earned in high school, he has adjusted well to moving 750 miles away from home, and his confidence level has increased. His requirements were school in the South with warm weather, about 20,000 students, newer buildings with great technology, and great sports for him to watch. He checked with the career center prior to acceptance to make sure the type of companies he wanted to work for recruited and hired from this school. He couldn't be happier.

My advice is really let you son own this and come back to you with a list. Ask a few questions based on his list, but let him own getting the answers. Its so easy to just step in and do all the work, but the only way they learn is by doing.
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warner25
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by warner25 »

I attended two of the schools on your list for a BA and MS in CS. Here are a couple thoughts...

1. I know this is a golden age for software developers, in terms of compensation, but wow! I continue to be stunned by the explosion in popularity of CS. For the last few years, I think that 9/10 threads on this forum about college said the kid wants to major (or at least minor) in CS. In the past decade at my own alma mater, CS has grown 500+% from an obscure and unpopular major to the most popular major for undergraduates. Our department used to be tucked away in a basement, and now they're constructing what will be the among the most iconic buildings in the city. I just wonder how much longer this can go on. But if he loves doing math problems (especially writing proofs) and writing code, then he should do it.

2. One problem with the USNWR rankings for CS, in my opinion, is that they favor schools with large CS departments and famous professors that produce(d) lots of important research. I think it's a better list for prospective PhD students who want careers in academia. I'm sure there are benefits for undergraduates too, but an undergraduate doesn't need what a PhD candidate needs. A smaller CS department might give the student a better chance to spend time with professors and stand out. I keep reading about CS departments overflowing with students and registering for classes (including 100+ seat lectures, even for graduate level classes) by lottery; a situation I'd want to avoid as a student. The insane growth of CS departments, as mentioned above, might make this difficult to find. Look at the registrar websites to see what classes are actually offered, how many seats they have, how full they are, etc. to get a feel for it. This was my approach to choosing a school for the MS.
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celia
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by celia »

I don’t see Stanford on your list, one of THE top CS schools. However, with his stats, he wouldn’t get in.

Urbana-Champaign is a highly-rated CS school. I would start your list with only public colleges in your state unless you think he might qualify for a scholarship or financial aid at a private.

I agree that having over 10 schools on your/ his initial list will make the comparisons seem overwhelming. And if he stays in-state, starting at a community college might make sense (and save money). While there, he should take some general ed courses as well as CS courses that would be accepted at 4-year colleges. This is to see if he really likes CS. It is surprising how many community college students are ‘majoring’ in CS but then do terribly in those classes. (When I was in a supervisory position in an IT dept and needed an intern, HR gave me a stack of resumes from local community college students. None of them showed good grades in CS classes, as if they were unable to understand/finish class assignments. We didn’t have time to train an intern who couldn’t follow course assignments.)

My next step would then have him look at the course descriptions for classes required for the major. Do the required (and optional) courses at one college sound more interesting/ appealing at a particular college? By becoming familiar with the websites of various colleges, he can also compare features that are important to him (research possibilities, clubs, student activities, size of campus and layout, etc).

If a local community college offers any CS courses this summer, he should look into taking a class. This will look good on his transcript if it is transferable college credits and makes him appear serious about his education.
Last edited by celia on Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
RetiredCSProf
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by RetiredCSProf »

I'm retired with a PhD in CS. I have taught at several universities (including two on your list), although most of my career was spent in the engineering industry. I'll give some comments, but I can be more helpful once you have narrowed the list. Also, I suggest looking at the College Confidential website -- it can be a bit elitist, but lots of good info there.

Many of the schools on your list have excellent programs but are top tier and would be a big reach for your son. It's a good idea to apply to 3 or 4 "reach" schools; more than that can be discouraging. MIT, Cal Tech, and Harvey Mudd are top engineering schools with low acceptance rates. The CS program at Harvard has been known for its theoretical studies -- if you happen to visit Harvard, make sure to stop at the exhibit of the Mark I computer.

There are some excellent state universities on your list, not as selective as the top tier, but still quite competitive. UC Irvine, UMass-Amherst, and Univ of Washington established their reputations with a focus in software engineering.

Have you "missed some schools"? Yes -- most schools have a CS program. Not all schools have an accredited CS program, so that may be something to consider, along with whether your son is more interested in theory / research, engineering, software engineering, or systems engineering.
Jax
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Jax »

As a recently retired CS'er, i would ask your son to try to determine what aspect of CS appeals to him - and then ask/beg/borrow intern positions in somewhat local companies who have a core competence in the area he in interested in.

A back end coder is (skills wise) a completely different animal than a UI coder, than an algorithm monkey, than an O/S developer, than a DBA, than a Systems person, etc, etc. Find out what he want to do with the rest of life. Network with colleagues during the internships to find out the best education path to take to get there.

I'm going to make a huge generalization here, so take these comments "in general", not as absolutes:

1) If you want to code down to bare metal, really understand how the O/S does its work, possibly do some groundbreaking work on O/S theory - Rice (and similar) would be good candidate(s). This is almost EE stuff, it is so deep into the hardware.

2) If you want to code on top of an O/S and learn the most elegant languages and structures to use to accomplish a particular task, the pros/cons of the theory of programming languages, or making toolsets, as it were - UT Austin (and similar) would be good candidate(s).

3) If you want to take a given language/architecture/toolset and make it do something useful, encompassing cloud back end, modern day front ends and tie it all together so it just works - Texas A&M (and similar) would be good candidate(s).

These artificial choices exist throughout the list of possible schools given, but they all have strengths and weaknesses - and they won't tell you what they are. The only way to find out I'm aware of is to network (and scour the schools degree plans to see which aspects of CS they stress).

All are necessary, all are valuable, not all will fit in with what attracts your child to CS.

Another route: Fight like heck to get an extended internship at a FAANG company as an HS grad and he'll get to see all of these different kinds of folks working all day long. Talk to them, find out what makes them tick, and by what route they ended up there. (Scour *your* network for anyone who works for one of these and ask for an interview for him.

CS is quite often not a traditional 4-yr college path. Many corps looking for front'line coders are not even looking for the trad 4-yr degree. There's a saying that is particularly apt in the CS field: Anything being taught in school is already obsolete in Industry.

MIS is a different critter. If he wants this, there's lots of good choices - but that's not the same as CS.

HTH,

Jax
evestor
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by evestor »

As someone somewhat senior in the field who interviews a lot of CS grads, I'll add this: What your child does during these 4 years matters more than where they do it.

For the purposes of contrast, which of the following two students would you hire:
1) Student that did a couple of great internships and built some stuff they are proud of / can talk about, participated in some extra-thing at their school, contributed to 2 open source projects on github, understands how computers work and has written a bunch of real code, took some other classes in other areas (economics, math, politics, creative writing, business, whatever) and can connect the dots between these areas with confidence; has a real sense of why they want to be a software engineer; is humble and knows what they know as well as what they don't know.
2) Student that spent 4 years hanging out w/friends, did some tours of big companies set up by their CS dept, got an internship along the way but doesn't have much to show for it, got a 3.9 in the required classes, but did it all at <insert your favorite top 10 school here>.

The advice given by another poster ^^ about letting them drive and encouraging them to think about what makes them happy is good advice as well.

Don't get me wrong, going to a great school with a solid CS program is a wonderful thing. It helps a lot. But it is not enough to stand out from the crowd. If you want to be a head above, it takes doing something meaningful with those 4 years.
fwellimort
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by fwellimort »

Former CS major here from Columbia Univ in City of NY.

I'll say this. CS majors from most schools don't give any more advantages when side compared to one another.
The only schools that I saw which had noticeable advantage were Stanford (due to proximity from Silicon Valley, companies are willing to interview more than most schools) and Carnegie Mellon (cause companies (?) love this school) and Brown (why so many graduates doing so well out of college?) ?

Every other school didn't have much of an advantage as one would expect. Now, I'm not saying the same opportunities are out there.
If you could get into the top 30% of graduates at top schools, then by all means, get into those top schools. They can easily be more than worth it in this field. Especially since hedge funds/unicorns/some top tech companies don't even consider you for interviews unless you graduate from a certain subset of schools.

Certain companies such as:
Facebook: ~$183,000 total compensation out of college
Citadel: $180,000~$400,000 total compensation out of college
Two Sigma: ~$180,000 total compensation out of college
Lyft: $240,000 total compensation out of college
AirBnb: $250,000 total compensation
Snapchat: $250,000 total compensation
will most likely be out of touch with your child (in terms of opportunities out of college)
You can clearly see a huge ROI for top schools out of college if you can secure internships/jobs there. Especially since the promotions/benefits are much bigger than most careers on top.

However, those companies even for students at top schools are so hard to get into that I think it is unrealistic with your child's scores to even expect such outcome irregardless. I would say for especially selective hedge funds, those are meant for the top < 1% of CS students at top schools (top tech companies more like top 20% at top schools).

Once we remove all that and your child is fine with not working at places like:
Stripe, Squares, Lyft, Snapchat, AirBnb, etc.
then you don't have to fret as much


I will tell you which companies that might be out of reach for your child in advance:
Khan Academy, Stripe, Square, Lyft, Snapchat, AirBnb, Facebook, Citadel, Two Sigma, Snapchat, Dropbox, Uber, Netflix, JUUL, Instacart, Robinhood, LinkedIn, Pinterest, TripAdvisor, Zynga, Spotify, Wayfair, Twilio, Shopify

What companies your child 'could' get interviews for if your child is a minority or just 'very very lucky':
Google: $185,000 total compensation out of college (+ 50% 401k match, free food, better benefits/insurance, free transportation, etc. etc. Don't forget all these top paying companies pay a lot more than just the total compensation per employee)
Apple: $165,000 total compensation out of college
Salesforce: $172,000 total compensation out of college
Bloomberg: $158,000 total compensation out of college

What companies your child might get interviews for if your child is "lucky" (recruiter decides to give a shot):
Microsoft: $157,000 total compensation out of college
Oracle: $169,000 total compensation out of college
Goldman Sachs: $150,000 total compensation out of college

What companies will most likely interview your child regardless of schools regardless that pay high:
Amazon: ~$135,000~155,000 total compensation out of college
Adobe: $140,000 total compensation out of college
IBM: $92,000 total compensation out of college
Intel: $109,000 total compensation out of college
major banks like Chase/Bank of America/Capital One: $105,000 total compensation out of college
major financial companies: $95,000 total compensation out of college

What the national average pay is for out of college CS major:
$70,000 total compensation out of college

UIUC will give your child a 'chance' (not that high but noticeably more than IL State Univ) to interview at Microsoft/Amazon/Oracle/Adobe/IBM/major banks. So I would say to think of the degree as a $120,000 total compensation out of college offer with a 'chance' to get paid around $160,000.

IL State University will most likely give your child a job at around $82,000 total compensation out of college given your child does well there.

From there, work your math. Whether degrees are worth it or not.
Also, CS currently is very difficult to break through in major cities out of college. Do not expect to work in major cities like San Francisco/Bay Area/New York City/Seattle with a degree from IL State University. You could argue that $82,000 total compensation goes much further ahead in non-major cities so the ROI is better but (shrugs), who knows.

And after three years in the industry, your child if motivated should be able to break into a company such as Amazon with around $215,000 total compensation. Please do keep in mind when doing the math and how motivated your child is (though to be quite fair, there's a good reason why Amazon pays so high despite its selectivity. It's a churn and burn place for many).


Work your math from there. Also, note the money you pay to college is AFTER-tax money. So consider how much you are spending PRE-tax before deciding. Then there's the lost opportunity cost of investing that money instead during the meantime.
That said, I personally opt to get into the best school that is within your budget. I would say no more than $20,000 debt no matter what.

There's more to life than just money. The friends you make can be quite an invaluable experience for your child.
After all, "birds of the feather, flock together". If you get into a 'good school', then there's a huge benefit even out of college.
It's a joke to get interviews at places like Bloomberg even after a year if you have peers working there and can refer you. The college degree opens quite a lot of doors through referrals as it's just so damn hard to get the interview (and it's hard to get interviews even with multiple referrals at places like Google/Facebook/Apple/Salesforce/hedge funds/top tech companies).

The biggest intangible benefit of top colleges are:
1. peers - you get motivated and acquire many good habits during the four years and after the four years. Friends at my school out of college all shared investing theories and budgeting and were upfront with their pays/aspirations/etc. If you aren't a Bogleheader, then top schools are one of the ways depending on the friends you create to open your eyes to be one. So again, lots of intangible benefits by just having the pees.
2. peers - your friends are more like minded. They have really fast common sense/thinking and are very respective of you as a person. They really highly value you as a friend (some will even send you hand written letters and all) and take the extra mile to show such to you. It's just more fun to be around with. I don't want to sound cocky but try talking to your significant other about a topic then try attempting talking the same topic to a grocery store worker. The in-depth and engagement just isn't there.
3. peers - when your friends are willing to stay awake days to finish homeworks together, one can get greatly inspired about one's limits. I had time frames in which I studied over 100 hours together with my friend a week. Such is unheard at most schools (and it does build confidence on your capabilities)
4. peers - able to take advantage of them upon graduation. So maybe your first job wasn't that glamorous compared to the rest but give it say two or three years, you can grab all the referrals everywhere and work in the place you want to with a much noticeable advantage (after all, as this career is well paying, what your child wants in his lifetime to do with his knowledge is more important -it would suck if your child can't work in Khan Academy if your child really wants to work there to help others, etc.-)
5. peers - Peers from top schools have quite unique hobbies. They will go the extra mile to learn/play instruments, make videos/vocaloids, etc. in their free times. A few of my friends during college have: made a video channel with hundreds of thousands of people watching, made a game that grossed around $10000, nationally ranked in a video game, made music with over hundred thousand downloads.
Those things just don't happen at most schools. At least the concentration is much lower and hard to find.
6. peers - Peers at top schools dream big (and not just dream, actually attempt them). Hiking mountains. Reading more books. etc.
7. peers - Peers at top schools tend to be more optimistic human beings after college.
8. diploma - For some reason, the 4 year school name sticks on your resume until you die. Elementary/Middle/High does not do it but college.. why?
9. diploma - Your boss might expect more out of you and give you more opportunities in the first year. If you can surpass his/her expectation, you will have an advantage in the first promotion (and from there build momentum). This can easily backfire if you underperform cause it makes you also look worse
10. diploma - You know you got the 'best education' possible in your field according to society and are proud of it (cough cough, more like taught by non-english speakers so you had to study yourself 4 years)
11. education - Courses are more in depth, more difficult, and the exams are harder. You can really really challenge yourself at top schools. There's just more offerings for those who are talented. I was taking graduate level math courses as a CS major in my second year. I was pushing myself to the limits cause there were courses that able-d me to. Studying sometimes over 100 hours a week cause I can instead of most people's schedule of 1~10 hours a week if your child is into that.. can be more possible at top schools.
12. reality - You see rampant cheating at all forms of higher education. And realize all those phd/future professors are just human beings just like you. I don't know if this is a benefit but it's something.
Basically, you gain confidence and that's something that's hard to place a price tag on.

The biggest cons of top colleges are:
1. Price tag - I have a friend with over $200,000 in student loans despite Columbia's financial aid system. Uhmm ya... the degree is definitely not worth that price tag. Especially since that friend wants to work in the public sector to help those struggling.
2. Stress - Columbia had some of the highest suicides in my year. It is the NORM to have depression, etc. at top colleges. Unfortunately, some people do have mental breakdowns due to this and come out far worse.
3. Price tag - Knowing you could have saved a lot more money going elsewhere for 'similar result' when seeing your co-worker come from some unknown school. However, I will say this. That's IF you are given the opportunity to get an interview. It's very very very very difficult to even get the first interview. Something most people discount. Skills are not just everything. You need someone to 'give you a chance' to showcase your skills. And that door opener is very difficult to obtain for some.
4. Education - Teaching is near non-existant. It's all pretty much self study.

So ya.. that's it! I say though to look beyond the price tag.
Peers + More Rigorous Education is not something one should not overlook when it comes to financing.
There's a place to be cheap at. But don't sacrifice quality for 'cheapness'. There's of course a line but it is up to you to find that line for your child.
I would say that line is below $20,000 in student loans during the 4 years.
Last edited by fwellimort on Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:58 am, edited 10 times in total.
fwellimort
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by fwellimort »

evestor wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:22 am 1) Student that did a couple of great internships and built some stuff they are proud of / can talk about, participated in some extra-thing at their school, contributed to 2 open source projects on github, understands how computers work and has written a bunch of real code
To get those internships, that 'first door step' is the difficult part. Most of my friends who got into top tech companies was able to get at least one internship at a major company. Once you get say 'Microsoft Internship' or whatever on your resume, school name does not matter at all. It's 'getting' that internship which requires passing through the recruiter giving you a chance for an interview.

As for contributing to open source projects on github, for most people, that's unrealistic. my friends and I even asked to a Googler working in Tensorflow with a phd and he even replied, "that's a horrible advice. It's incredibly difficult to contribute to any meaningful open source without at least 4~6 years of real world experience". And none of my peers have open source contributions. It's a rarity and really only shows from those who been programming before college (and a very small subset from those).
After all, understanding a repository takes a lot of time (time one does not have during college) and knowledge of industry level coding (which college grads don't have).
Sure, you can point towards 'easy tasks' at Firefox, etc. but even those I feel are way too high level for college grads.
evestor wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:22 am Don't get me wrong, going to a great school with a solid CS program is a wonderful thing. It helps a lot. But it is not enough to stand out from the crowd. If you want to be a head above, it takes doing something meaningful with those 4 years.
I do agree. This is a field that after say 3 years, if you are truly motivated and talented, can place you into companies like Amazon. And if you can survive even a few years there and do well, from there, regardless of the school, you can get interviews almost anywhere.
However, it does not change the fact that you are set back at least 3~5 years from those who didn't get into top colleges career wise (3 years to switch to a top tier company. And another 2 years to get promoted/get in shape -plus another 2 years honestly to get the fundamentals correct if you come from a place that didn't do much architecture, clean code, etc.-).
I will say this though. After 10 years, your degree won't have much of a difference if at all unless your child was incredibly talented from the start and could get into top hedge funds out of college. I would argue after 7 years, most developers get paid similarly to their skills.

So ya.. if you think pure ROI, as long as your child is talented and hard working, after say 7 years, his results should be similar to those who went to top schools. The question... do you want to give your child a 7 year boost to the result or not. And is that worth the price. Who knows.

In a pure ROI standpoint, 2 year community => 2 year college at UIUC is the best option. However, I do know lots of peers at Columbia who did 3-2 program had nearly no friends and didn't feel like they belonged at Columbia. Is that... what you want your child to undergo? No meaningful connections?
There's more to play than just money. Your child will be financially fine as long as he is capable to do so long term (especially in this field).
fatgeorge
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by fatgeorge »

AerialWombat wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:11 am This discussion in relation to comp sci and elite schools seems to pop up every few months. If he’s not going to Stanford or some such, choice of uni for CS matters little. Heck, try a 6-month coding boot camp instead. We’ve hired ALL of our devs through such programs at my tiny tech startup, and they do great.
As a 20+ year software engineer I agree with the above. After he worked 3+ years, nobody gonna care where did he study, and after 5 years nobody gonna even ask. Job qualifications as "BS/MS in CS" almost always continue with "... or equivalent", equivalent here meaning he passes the interview.

Studying for CS takes major effort, one has to keep A LOT of things in memory. WHERE do you study matters very little. I know very good engineers who self-studied, have no degree at all, and working on Principal positions.

It is very different from Law/Med. There is no IT company I know in Silicon Valley which would require their devs to be from Stanford/MIT. Sure, if your old Stanford buddy is CTO there it would help you, but there still will be plenty of devs from all around the world who didn't even hear of Stanford.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by fwellimort »

My horrible guess of financial outcome (in terms of total compensation out of college -salary + bonus + signing bonus + RSU):
$120~180,000
Ivy League, Harvey Mudd, MIT, Univ of Chicago, Northwestern, CalTech, Rice, UCLA, Berkeley, USC, Carnegie Mellon
~$128,000
Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, Georgetown, Georgia Tech, UIUC, U Washington, WuStL, Cooper Union, Emory
(Many of these privates can give you similar opportunities to those in the $120~180,000 range. So it's a bit murky.)
~$110,000
UMich Ann Arbor, UW Madison, Tufts
~$96,000
Tufts, UNC-Chapel, URochester, BU, Brandeis, Tulane, Purdue, Rochester Institute of Tech
~$82,000
Rose Hulman, IL State University
~$75,000
U of Georgia, Centra, Lehigh, Gettysburg

No idea: Most liberal art colleges but I assume Williams should be up there with rest of Ivy League

----
After 7 years, potentially:
.... most competent developers willing to move companies get blocked around $305,000 in Silicon Valley. $150~200,000 elsewhere
It's more about luck (like working as senior in Google+ vs Android) which one can't control and/or politics
And in general, I would expect after 3.5 years, your child's pay if motivated to be similar to those attending top schools (there will be opportunity cost of those 3.5 years missing out but your child isn't really missing out any "compensation" from around year 3.5).
scritch
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by scritch »

Congrats on the nice scores! Urbana-Champaign is probably fine. Didn’t Larry Page do undergrad in Michigan?

Your child will be able to be recruited by all the top companies, and will receive a sufficient education. (The old logic was undergrad curriculums were similar enough.) From there, it’s about grit and luck.

Focus on keeping your costs down and finding a place where your child will be happy and able to succeed. In-state tuition, mmm mmm.

Source: went to a state school in CS, am senior engineer in big tech.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by quantAndHold »

I was a hiring manager at a FAANG.

So some of the numbers being thrown around are unrealistic for a kid right out of college. But the better schools have more consistent and in depth curricula and expect more of their students, and the top companies recruit at those schools. Being a good student at a good school can significantly increase the kid’s lifetime earnings over, say, Illinois State.

There is a lot of truth that what you do in school is more important than where you go to school, but I have interviewed kids with 3.9 GPA’s from some lower tier schools, and realized that they weren’t taught any of what we consider the core CS knowledge, and could barely code at all. We hired a lot of people straight out of the better schools without internships or special projects, but they were well grounded in the fundamentals, and could write code.

But it is also true that once you’re in the workforce, nobody cares at all what school you went to. Potential employers only care what you can do for them, as demonstrated by what you’ve done at previous jobs. I hired *experienced* people from places like Illinois State, people with degrees in philosophy and art, and even an experienced guy from a coding bootcamp (not a path I recommend, there was only one, but it did happen once). The college hires, though, were all from schools mentioned in this thread.

Anyway, what research has your kid done, and where does he want to go? He’s he one doing this thing, not you. I know with my own kids, they chose places that were much better for their wants and needs than anyplace I could have chosen for them.

Oh, and no high school kid ever gets an internship at a FAANG. A few precocious ones get internships after their sophomore year of college, but not before that. We did expect them to have some base knowledge before we brought them in. An internship is basically an 8 week long job interview, and a high school kid isn’t ready for that.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by joeschmo »

I attended a school not on your list, majored in CS while taking things like philosophy and art, interned at FAANG after sophomore year, graduated, started my own company, and sold it for millions of dollars. That’s atypical, but I hope you’ll hear my thoughts anyway.

At age 16-17 I loved CS but also thought of becoming a nutritionist or architect. If I had narrowly focused my college search on what I thought I wanted at age 16, I would never have learned the drawing skills that I used to design a successful product, the critical thinking skills (probably from philosophy) that I used to debate legal issues during our acquisition, or the performing arts skills that bring me joy.

Without a crystal ball, we can’t know whether a kid at age 16 will fall out of love with one subject, or even whether a kid will get into one school or another. No Boglehead would invest 100% in the tech sector, and your son shouldn’t either!

College admissions and life are even more of a crapshoot than the stock market, so we should approach them with Bogleheads principles:

1. Work with your son to determine risk tolerance.
2. Split the options into core “asset” classes based on acceptance/life risk. “Stocks” are places like Harvard, Stanford, Swarthmore, Williams, etc. “Bonds” are places with 25-75th percentile acceptance rates. “Alternatives” are coding bootcamp, year abroad in Europe, etc. “Cash” are universities with 75th+-percentile acceptance rates.
3. Screen for social, academic, expense, quality of life, and application risk. With Fiske Guide to Colleges and college visits, eliminate programs that have uninspiring teaching, environments that don’t inspire your son, programs outside your price range, etc. Ensure that every program has a good CS department (sit in on classes, meet professors, see who inspires your son), but don’t apply to a school that’s only good for tech or won’t leave time for exploring other subjects. To do so would increase risk by placing too many eggs in one basket.
4. Choose a diversified allocation to each “asset” class, in the balance that meets your risk tolerance. For example, I ended up applying to 2 high-risk, 3 mid-risk, and 1 low-risk. All had decent programs in all standard university subjects and good CS programs.

Once in school, pick a major:

1. Determine your allocation between safe “assets” that your son already likes (CS) and riskier “assets” that your son thinks he might like. Even if your allocation is 90/10 CS/other, it’s still better than putting all your eggs in the CS basket.
2. Include some alternative “assets” that your son doesn’t even think he’d like. I really wish I had done this instead of abjectly avoiding English, history, and other areas where I just had never had good high school teachers.
3. Take courses in a balance that meets your target asset allocation. Rebalance as needed to manage risk. (The more certain your son is that CS is right, the less risky the CS assets are.)

Good luck and have fun!

P.S. Having interviewed tons of people and gotten a job at FAANG without a degree from a famous CS school, I thoroughly agree with @evestor’s advice. Worked for me!
P.P.S. The college I ended up going to and loving was not even on my own well researched list. It was recommended to me by a CS professor at a local university. See USNWR liberal arts college listings.
P.P.P.S. One of my CS classmates discovered CS by taking a CS class entirely on a whim and ended up a high-paid researcher for Google. No one without a crystal ball should pick stocks - or life paths!
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by beyou »

I am 2nd gen CS with 3rd generation children just completed college / CS.

Location matters alot, some companies recruit regionally.
Getting internships/coops is big, and being in a remote location will reduce (not eliminate) opportunities. Yes major international employers will interview by phone, first round, but my son went to school in the northeast, and majority of his many interviews were NY-Boston area. Yes, he was flown out to a major tech firm in Seattle, which took a few days of his life in the middle of a busy semester, which is nice but can only do so many of those.

Peers are important, my son learned so much from working collaboratively, and networking with alumni. Ask when you visit, do they encourage or discourage collaboration on projects. Some schools look at this as cheating, others as group learning. I think group learning is valuable.

Note majority of kids change their major, and many cs programs are so crowded with freshmen, they have weed out courses freshman/soph years to reduce the size of the group to those who are serious and capable. Your son should be prepared for all-nighters.

Finally, note some colleges accept by major as they dont want every applicant to be concentrated in a single major like CS. Others accept without regard to intended major. Find out as part of the process of picking your “reach” and safety schools.

If your child has a geographic preference, people can better help narrow the list.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by cshell2 »

How did you come up with this list? It seems very random. A lot of those schools your son doesn't have the stats to get into and is missing ones I would have on there if searching from IL. University of Minnesota has a top 50 CS program and would be more of a match academically than a lot of them on your list, although it still might be a reach for an OOS student. I would consider retaking the ACT. My son (senior this year) had a 31 as well and we called it "good enough", but in hindsight we're kicking ourselves for not shooting for a couple more points. He got into all the schools he applied to, but it seems the merit really starts to kick in at around a 33.

Also, your son would qualify for an auto-merit scholarship of 8K/year from Iowa State so tuition would be more like 16K. Iowa State really impressed us btw, I would for sure look more closely into them and your son would easily get in. My son is still on the fence with schools, he would really love to go to ISU, but our in state option (Minnesota) is a lot cheaper for us.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Just to point out....your numbers are tuition only. I'm looking at my alma mater, Worcester Polytechinic, where my son is about to graduate from. Tuition and fees alone are $52,320 which matches your list. Add room and board to that unless you plan to move to Worcester to avoid that cost. If you do that, parking is $350 a year and a space available is not guaranteed.....and the library parking lot is in large part off limits because of the new building under construction.

Actual, total on campus is $69,822.

https://www.wpi.edu/admissions/tuition- ... attendance
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Vulcan
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Vulcan »

As others said, your list only reflects tuition, is not representative, and for colleges in it not sorted in any apparent fashion.

CS is extraordinarily competitive these days. My son is a senior applying to CS (accepted EA to Caltech, MIT, and a few publics including Georgia Tech; more RD apps pending), so I am pretty familiar with the admissions landscape.

A (presumably white or asian) middle class male B+ student with ACT 31 is unlikely to get into not just an "elite" college, but any prestigious OOS CS program. I've seen Purdue (#20 in CS) offer alternative major to students with near-perfect grades and ACTs who did not demonstrate their deep commitment to the chosen major via strong CS-related extracurricular record.

A school like Pitt (#50 in CS), with its average 50% ACT of 30-34 for CS students, is more in the realm of possibility, but I do not know that it's worth paying OOS money for it, and would not count on getting a scholarship there as an OOS student even with absolutely perfect stats (my son did not).

It's not too late to get that ACT into the 34+ range to widen his choices, but still, I would probably, considering his grades, focus on finding the best in-state match and treat all OOS options as reaches.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

I am a soon to retire from software engineer dude at 35. If you work for more then average megacorp in IT, starting salaries could be more like 70ish and you top out at 160ish. When I hired people, I didn't care where their degree was from an actual hiring perspective. Not that top tier schools got a pass, but we probably did scrutinize obvious online university candidates more, to make sure that they had the technical skills. However, it's possible at a megacorp to go from starting salary to top-end in less than 10 years, if you stand out.

I'm not saying to not invest in a top tier school, (if you can actually afford it), but you have to decide if there is enough intangible value for you to make it worth it.

I keep thinking about this with respect to my children, 7/9. I have $100k each saved for them. (assuming i don't give them any more) If one assumed 6% real growth on the money (which probably is high), in 20 years they would have about 320k each. In another 20 years, it would be over $1M. So i keep going back to, my children should do what they want in life, not what they think will pay them the most money.

If you want to understand the net price after any potential aid based on merit/need/etc, these people have collected a lot of data, and your $500 might be well spent to have them do some analysis. https://www.capstonewealthpartners.com/ ... s-pricing/ (they built a tool that they sell to independent advisors to do this work. https://collegeaidpro.com/ you might be able to find someone else with the tool at a lower price)
Earned 43 (and counting) credit hours of financial planning related education from a regionally accredited university, but I am not your advisor.
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Watty
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Watty »

When I was helping my son select a college one thing that I picked up somewhere that really stuck with me was a quote that was something like;
Selecting the best college for your kid is not about picking the best college, it is about picking the college that is the best fit for your kid.
For background I am a retired software developer with a decades old CS degree and my son also decided to get an CS degree about 8 years ago but I did not push him in that direction.

Even if you somehow determine what the best CS college in the country is it would not be a good college for your kid if he does not fit in well there.

I would give up trying to actually rank the colleges and just lump them into these groups.

1) A handful of premier choices that will be hard to get into and afford.
2) Good solid choices.
3) Marginal choices that might be OK if it is a perfect fit.
4) Colleges to avoid.

It is really pretty easy to fit schools into those categories, then you just need to be concerned about which schools are the best fit for your kid for the cost and not really worry about how the colleges rank within a category.

A lot of the fit involves things like the college size and if it is in a urban location or a college town. Some colleges can also be really high pressure which can be a problem. Do not underestimate that.
ualdriver wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:01 am Should he simply be trying to get into the most competitive school that will take him?
NO!

He is a B+ student now so if your son is barely able to get into a super competitive college then he may start out in the bottom 10% of his class which can be hard for some students to deal with and they may not thrive there even if he is able to muddle through. Spending the first year of college trying to catch up with most of the other students is not a good situation to be in.

I am in Georgia and my son likely could have gotten into Georgia Tech even though he was a "B" student because instate admissions is a bit easier. Georgia Tech is an excellent university but he would have really struggled there and likely would have been miserable and there would have been a good chance that he would not have graduated.

My son did not put in a lot of effort in high school so we were not willing to pay for an expensive private or out of state college and which was OK since he did not want to go to any of those anyway. Georgia has several other flagship state universities in addition to Georgia Tech that he likely could have gotten into but he choose to go to a large lower tier regional state university. In retrospect that worked out well since that school was a good fit for him and in some ways he got to be a big fish in a small pond. (The state university system actually refers to the campuses as being in different tiers.

He has an extended group of friends that all got CS degrees from that university and they are all doing very well in their careers even though they were all from a lower tier state university. Once they got about five years of experience where they went to college does not seem to be real important. They seem to mostly get their jobs through networking so having graduated from a better known university would not help them get more job interviews.

A few general observations;

1) You will see people posting here about making insane salaries at the FAANG companies mainly in Silicon Valley. A lot of people at those companies don't last very long either, you have to have a lot of job turnover to have an average employee age that is less than 30. The FAANG companies are only a teeny tiny percentage of people with CS degrees so he should not expect that but in any major city there will be lots of high paying jobs people good CS people.

2) There is a good chance that your son will end up switching majors once he gets into college and finds out more about what the degree is about and what he is good at. CS is something you really need to have some natural ability for or you will be mediocre and likely miserable. He will not know if he has that natural ability until he gets into the degree program.

It would be good to make sure that he knows that it is Ok to switch majors if he would be better at doing something else. Over the years before I retired I saw way too many people that had gotten into computers because someone told them it was what they should do. If they was not a good fit for them they might still be able to get by but they were not usually very happy or a top performer.
ualdriver wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:01 am I was wondering what we should be looking for in a Computer Science program? What should we be thinking about?
A few things;

1) If you dig through the statistics you can find the retention and graduation rates for the different colleges. These can be surprisingly low and if he is going to a college where only 75% of the entering freshman graduate it would be good to know that ahead of time. No one thinks they will be in the 25% of students that don't graduate.

Make sure your son know this since during his freshman year he will need to decide how much to study and how much to party. If the knows that 25% of the people on his dorm floor will not graduate then that may help him tip the balance more towards the studying side.

2) Check to see how likely it is that he will be able to get good internships, this can be really important in getting his first job.

3) Check to see how hard it is to change majors, this can vary a lot at different universities.

4) Know the details of the housing options. At the university my son went to on campus housing was really tight so after their freshman year they were pretty much required to move to an off campus apartment. That sort of surprised us since we had planned to pay for him to live in a dorm for four years. At the end of his freshman year we were a bit late in helping him find housing for his next year so he had to scramble to find a place to live.

5) Look into how his health insurance will work. If he is getting health insurance through your employer and he goes to college in some other state then their might not be any in-network providers where he is going to college.

6) It would be good if he planned on having a strong useful minor in addition to the CS degree. That can help him be more diversified and if the CS degree does not work out it might be possible to switch majors to what his minor degree.

7) Many universities have a week long summer program for prospective students where they can live on campus for a week. One of those might give him a better feel as to which college he wants to go to.
Last edited by Watty on Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
X528
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by X528 »

Before deciding on a major and career, consider taking a career aptitude test:

https://www.jocrf.org/

Make Your College Application Stand Out with Aptitude Testing:

https://www.jocrf.org/news-article/make ... de-testing
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by mrspock »

Also things to consider:

1. Goto a college where he will be in the middle to top of the class. The worst thing would be to stretch, get in, but then feel like a failure (and this not cut out for the career) in the desired major. Lots of studies on this phenomenon, read up on it.

2. Consider computer engineering vs computer science, a bit broader, a bit more career options and they train you how to “think” as well as impart knowledge. If he ends up not liking the field, there’s also branches of eng which are all well paying.

3. The best schools really help give a leg up on job #1 or a career in academia IMO. Meaning, you have a better chance of landing a gig at a big
tech company right out of school. After that, nobody really cares in big tech, it’s just too competitive for engineers, if you can pass the interviews... you are in.

4. To lower costs, consider doing first year at a community college and then transfer. The courses are pretty much the same.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by ualdriver »

All through mrspock:

I can't respond to everyone on this thread, but we greatly appreciate the advice that we have received, and we'll stay lurking as more is posted. There are a lot of points here that I would have never even considered as a guy in a field far removed from the apparent academic rigors of Computer Science. Again, thanks!
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Vulcan »

mrspock wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:02 am 2. Consider computer engineering vs computer science, a bit broader, a bit more career options and they train you how to “think” as well as impart knowledge.
I beg to differ. Computer engineering is a more hardware-oriented major that does not delve as deep into the soft side as computer science does. It is a less desirable major, and is therefore an easier one to get into in those schools that offer both CS and CE.

And the job prospects for the hardware part of it are not as attractive as the ones in software.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Watty »

One more thought, you might have your son read this thread and ask any questions that he has.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Big Dog »

A B+ student has zero chance at most of the schools on your list. (The transcript is the #1 & #2 criteria for such schools: grades + academic course rigor.)

The UC's are extremely expensive for OOS so unless you are wealthy....

You are looking at this the wrong way. Asking whether UofC is worth the extra money over [insert name] is a waste of time since he has zero chance of admission into Chicago.

Instead, make a traditional list of a dozen colleges of Reaches, Mids, and Safeties (~90% chance of admission).
X528
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by X528 »

What about Virginia Tech?
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by inbox788 »

ualdriver wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:01 amschools below asterisk do not have a linear relationship to those above
Harvey Mudd
What relationship? And what do you mean by linear?

As an IL resident, the state schools are a relative bargain, so you should rank them higher. Conversely, other state schools like UC should be ranked lower. Other than Cal, I probably wouldn't be looking at other state schools because you'd be paying private school prices and you'd have no advantage over private programs.
As an IL resident, he has Univ of IL Champaign as a choice (not sure if he could get in, very competitive program) or a choice like IL State University (not very competitive I think). IL State would only cost me $14K/year in tuition, but appears to have a "lower" ranked Computer Science program. Is it worth the money to pay $30K, $40K, or $50K per year for a "higher" ranked Computer Science program if he could get in vs. going to IL State for $14K per year, for example? And I guess what I should really say, is it worth it for ME to be paying these higher tuition costs since I will be footing the bill! I just don't want to waste MY money : )
Yes for some. You'd have to look at it case by case. Harvey Mudd would be worth it IMO (if he can get in and complete the program).

Name 3 schools he's likely to get in and 3 schools he has a chance of getting in, and then compare and lump the rest to see if there are other he would consider going over these. Or just 2 others than UI CHampaing and IL State. Since you can afford it, look at the price tag later.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Nyc10036 »

I am biased but I would strongly urge your son to consider a BS in Computer Engineering if he has any inclination to know more about the hardware of things.

Beside UC Berkeley, I would also consider U of M Ann Arbor for state universities.

As I recall out-of-state tuition is midway between in-state tuition and a private university.

.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Housedoc »

University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa. My son obtained his CS degree there. Had job offers before graduation. A wonderful environment to live in. Not too bad on the budget. And he can say Roll Tide as much as he wants!
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by cowdogman »

My older son's best friend went to Purdue and graduated last spring in CS. He's now working at Google and, with bonus and stock, makes somewhere over $150K/year and lives in a very nice city. He's a very nice kid and I'm guessing he works hard, but I think he is a typical high-level CS graduate--not a superstar.

I think paying for a name school in CS is worth it.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Normchad »

The demand and opportunities for new CS grads is remarkable. It is not all that important where you go to school to get the CS degree. Any reasonable school will lead to success.

Especially for CS grads, what they do is more important than where they go.

I’ve hired CS grads from MIT as well as schools you haven’t heard of. We pay them all the same to start, and future raises and promotions are based on what they do, not where they’re from. (We ended up firing the MIT guy).

I’m biased, but I’m a big fan of large, public, in-state schools. Good value, lots of options, not a complete loss if they change their course of study, etc.

*IF* they really wanted to live in another part of the country after graduation, I might consider going to school there.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by TechGuy365 »

I was a Computer Science major and am currently a hiring / people manager at a tier-1 mega tech. I have 2 kids - one in a private university with full tuition merit scholarship and one in HS planning on majoring in CS. Your question is around colleges search and not job search or salary information after college. I would not put carts before the horses and think too much about tuition or job prospects at this point. Instead, focus on expanding his college options and choices.

Schools: Identify 3 lists of schools: stretch, target and safety. Put 2 to 3 school in each. Use tools like Naviance, recommendations from friends and school counselor to help you select.

Scores: ACT of 31 is average but your son's 35/36 in Math is excellent! It's not too late get the other parts higher, it will improve your options. 33 or higher composite would be good.

Transcript: all school will tell you that transcript is the most important component of your college application. The higher your son can get his grade up the better. 4.3/4.0 weighted GPA is a good starting point. In order to get that you'll have to load up with AP/IB courses. Both of my kids and their friends graduated / will graduate HS with 11-12 AP courses. But this is only a component - we had friends with kids with 4.6 GPA and not get into ANY Ivy League schools.

Essay: so important - it's the only way college can distinguish your kids from 1,000s of other ones.

College visits: use it to eliminate school choices instead of adding.

College majors and first job: programming is a skill you'll acquire with a computer science major, but it's hardly a career goal. Having a passion and concentration of study will help land your first job. For example, data science and cognitive science is hot now (2020). What's even more important is having relevant working experiences / internship during college, and your ability to communicate and persuade effectively.

School name: In my current position I don't hire programmers nor people out of college so I don't see starter resumes often, but I can tell you that after first couple of jobs (~10 years of experience), the name of the college doesn't make any difference. With that said, would I pay $70k/yr for my child to go to Carnegie Mellon if he's accepted? Heck yeah.

Also - an advanced degree (Masters, PhD) doesn't matter much in this field unless you're doing research.
swordandscales
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by swordandscales »

I’m on the other side of the fence. I teach CS in high school. We send lots of students to high end institutions. I have a student at UChicago right now on a full ride who had a 31 ACT score.

There are lots of very informative posts here and I’m going to keep my response short.

Your son should choose a program and campus he is happy with and interested in - while keeping debt as low as possible.

I also recommend a school that emphasizes the whole academic experience. STEM majors sometimes have short runways after graduation - if he doesn’t live and breathe CS work it’s good to have an education that gives him more to think about.

I disagree strongly with coding boot camps as a replacement for college when it comes to 18 year olds. That’s a shortsighted decision.
Discipline is freedom. | -Jocko Willink
Normchad
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Normchad »

swordandscales wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:42 pm I’m on the other side of the fence. I teach CS in high school. We send lots of students to high end institutions. I have a student at UChicago right now on a full ride who had a 31 ACT score.

There are lots of very informative posts here and I’m going to keep my response short.

Your son should choose a program and campus he is happy with and interested in - while keeping debt as low as possible.

I also recommend a school that emphasizes the whole academic experience. STEM majors sometimes have short runways after graduation - if he doesn’t live and breathe CS work it’s good to have an education that gives him more to think about.

I disagree strongly with coding boot camps as a replacement for college when it comes to 18 year olds. That’s a shortsighted decision.
Good stuff here. I 100% agree about the importance of “fit” in selecting a school. It is nearly impossible to be successful at school’s you’re not happy about being there. Some kids need small schools, some need big. Some need to be really challenged, others need it more relaxed. Some can thrive in a cut throat program, many can’t.

Also agree with your disagreement regarding boot camps.

I’m a computer engineer from a top ranked program. I’ve also interviewed probably 200 new college grads in the last five years, and hired 40 of them.

This can be an amazing career field. It has been for me. However, more and more I’m seeing kids getting these degrees who really shouldn’t, and will probably be professional failures. To be successful at this, you have to be smart, which they all are. But you also have to be very dedicated and very curious. Solving these problems can be. Rey frustrating, and not everybody can force themselves through that frustration and challenge day after day for thirty years. Lots of people can, but they have to want to. Kids who get thee degrees because they hear about the high salaries, or their parents talk them into it, struggle in school and will struggle professionally.

Shockingly, it is possible to graduate with a CS degree from a good school, and learn almost nothing.

Best of luck to you and your son. And if you’re not on college confidential, that’s the place to be.....
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by fwellimort »

I also agree with whoever stated above to go to a school which puts your kid at least in the 50th percentile.
I will take it a step up and say try to get into a school in which your kid is in the top 30% in the department.
Being in the bottom 20~30% brings no benefits of attending a more expensive school. Your kid might fall into depression and anxiety and have less opportunities than having attended elsewhere.

Also, do understand most people change majors during college. I went to college thinking of majoring in Pure Mathematics with minor in Philosophy.
Ended up graduating college with Computer Science and minor in Mathematics. Mostly due to money though and realizing while I enjoy learning pure mathematics, I am not sure if 'researching' mathematics is for me -plus, I took enough graduate level math courses to self-study most content-.

Almost everyone now goes into college thinking of majoring or minoring in Computer Science. And a lot of those people end up not majoring/minoring in Computer Science during college -some straight up hating-.
Keep this all in mind when picking a skill. I would argue for attending a reputable overall undergrad school due to this (but be realistic with finances).

As to the someone who mentioned Computer Engineering and Computer Science together.
In most schools, the two fields are quite different.
Computer Engineering has physics (ewww) and Computer Science has lots of pure mathematics/probability.
I know there are people who double majored these but I highly suggest not. Even my CS professor stated outright to the students not to do so and instead dabble on the arts.
Learn something else like Philosophy or Buddhism or whatever.
The only real courses I remember in college are the philosophy and music courses I took (Contemporary Civilizations at Columbia Univ). Same for many of my peers. The most interesting courses were those from the humanities.
As for Computer Science, I cannot remember anything remotely useful to the real world. Maybe Intro to Programming but other than that, it was all just proofs about co-NP and what not. Basically... computer science degree can be very theoretical and be as applicable as learning Calculus and claiming to know how to be an engineer (the relationship is quite questionable).

Computer Science in college is great for those interested in Number Theory, Graph Theory, Stochastics, or those interested in finding a shortcut to the software workforce.
For a long time, Computer Science was considered a branch of Applied Mathematics due to this. And lots of great computer scientists historically were also mathematicians.

Now, Computer Science in the workforce is very very different. I agree. But uhmm.. at least first make sure your kid enjoys programming.
Sites like:
https://www.khanacademy.org/computing/c ... algorithms
can be quite helpful for your child to understand what Computer Science really is in college.
of course, for more of a real introduction, something like:
https://online-learning.harvard.edu/cou ... er-science

My parents during high school tried to steer me towards pharmacy.
I was never interested in the field. Please don't force your kid to a field due to its employ-ability.
Let the kid be in a position to be flexible for what he wants to study during college.

Some interesting things for everyone about Computer Science:

Code: Select all

Four-Color Theorem
And to be quite frank, your child's score is very underwhelming for schools such as U Chicago.
Schools such as U Chicago/Ivy League/MIT/CalTech have many 4.0+ 36ers with spectacular extracurriculars that get rejected every year.
In fact, I would say 36 is highly common in these schools at the CS department. Lots of 'smart' people are trying to break into this field.
Now, I'm not saying "don't apply". But please be realistic. The top 20 undergrad schools in the US are very difficult for your child to break into especially without some unimaginable extra-curriculars.

Personally, I would attend an in-state school. Most schools just aren't worth the 'price tag' (even Columbia Univ). Eating 0~1 meal a day (my undergrad) was not a fun experience. If it wasn't for the financial aid, I would have been better off attending a state school.
If your child is capable, go retake the ACTs. And take lots of hard courses and get good grades then transfer after 1 year to a place like UIUC/WuStL/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame (those privates are easy to transfer to and have lots of potential financial aid).

Plus, your child is not going to die homeless or whatever given your child is motivated. We are currently talking about wages for at entry level that is higher than the national median family income. Just avoid taking debt (and if must, keep it at most say $20,000 4 years) and find a school that matches for him.
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ualdriver
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by ualdriver »

Thanks for the continued, very useful advice. We've added a few colleges to our spreadsheet now, thanks. And to be clear, we are fully aware that we wouldn't be competitive at those upper tier schools I listed above. Those schools are just data points on a spreadsheet I created--nothing more.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by HornedToad »

I would go big picture top down instead first. The CS program of a specific school is farther down the list in college decision.

1. What kind of school does he want to go to? University, Liberal Arts, Sports, What area of the country, etc
2. What types of companies does he think he wants to work for: Hi-Tech, Fortune 500, startups, etc. Go to the colleges that they recruit from
3. What types of jobs, if he knows: Software Engineer, DBA, Data Scientist, Scrum Master, Engineering Mgr, etc
4. Where can he get in
5. Grad school?
6. Cost
7. etc

I think you are focused on the details before you've narrowed that down.

I went to a small liberal arts school as a CS major, then got a Masters after and have done well due to an ability to break down problems and use design thinking. It all depends on what's the right fit for *him*
The Broz
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by The Broz »

mega317 wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:19 am The first thing I would do is choose a part or parts of the country he wants to live. And what type of school/campus. Narrow this list down to like 10-15. There can't be a huge overlap in people considering USC and Rensselaer. Or BYU and UNC. Maybe I'm wrong about that.
Unless you have the money to be able to pay for basically any school, this is terrible advise. He needs an education bottom line, and if you don't have the means to send him away to anyplace he chooses (i.e. you never have to ask 'how much?' for anything), I think it is horribly irresponsible to pay double or triple what you need to because the campus has nice weather, the girls are pretty, there's a nice lawn to study or whatever the reason is. Unless he gets into an absolute top tier school, the brand name on the diploma is not going to matter much. If he busts his butt in school, that will get him a decent first job. If he busts his butt in that job for a bit, he'll be able to to write his own ticket.
If money is a concern at all, he can go to community college for a bit and transfer to an in-state school. He can live at home to save on housing. I would just caution you to stay away from the mentality that he should be able to spend money he doesn't have for "the college experience".
My two cents.
The Broz
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by The Broz »

TechGuy365 wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:34 pm I would not put carts before the horses and think too much about tuition or job prospects at this point. Instead, focus on expanding his college options and choices.
Sorry but again - terrible advice. There is approx 1 Trillion (with a T) in outstanding student loan debt. This mentality is why. You absolutely need to consider tuition, unless money is no object. People who can afford a Toyota Corolla should not go shopping or buying a Rolls. There is no shame in that.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by stoptothink »

cowdogman wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:10 pm My older son's best friend went to Purdue and graduated last spring in CS. He's now working at Google and, with bonus and stock, makes somewhere over $150K/year and lives in a very nice city. He's a very nice kid and I'm guessing he works hard, but I think he is a typical high-level CS graduate--not a superstar.

I think paying for a name school in CS is worth it.
My +1, I have 3 friends/former colleagues and a current colleague with similar stories (not really rock stars, but FAANG engineering pretty much right out of undergrad): 2 from Utah Valley University, Cal Poly Pomona, and Grand Canyon (FYI, that's a for-profit). If FAANG is the goal, based solely on their experience, I really doubt the name matter all that much.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by mrspock »

Vulcan wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:37 am
mrspock wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:02 am 2. Consider computer engineering vs computer science, a bit broader, a bit more career options and they train you how to “think” as well as impart knowledge.
I beg to differ. Computer engineering is a more hardware-oriented major that does not delve as deep into the soft side as computer science does. It is a less desirable major, and is therefore an easier one to get into in those schools that offer both CS and CE.

And the job prospects for the hardware part of it are not as attractive as the ones in software.
I think you have an outdated or ill informed idea of what computer engineering is, and the curriculum. Computer engineering combines the knowledge of computer science and electrical engineering into a discipline which is comfortable working in either or both at the same time.

A major difference is less emphasis on liberal arts, as these are often swapped out for “hard” engineering coursework, and broadness of studies. I took nearly all the same comp sci courses as my comp sci counterparts, as the degree is nearly a full year longer my school, and nearly two years worth more credits.

As for it not being in high demand by students, there’s a simple reason: it’s much (much) harder, and more work :) . From an employer point of view, we hold the degree in just as high esteem as comp sci, comp eng folks just have a broader selection of jobs to choose from (hardware and software spectrum). I’m not aware of anyone in comp eng who was passed over in favor of a comp sci grad.

Comp Eng at (most schools) is certainly more work, and more difficult, but worth it IMO.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by walkabout »

I live in SEC country (Southeastern Conference). My company hires a lot of EE and CS grads, as well as other STEM degrees/workers. As far as college recruiting, my company visits a lot of SEC and Big 12 schools, as well as lesser known schools (based on recent Facebook postings). We are hiring for defense industry jobs. We aren’t FAANG, but the jobs are regarded as good and they pay well.
HornedToad wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:26 pm I would go big picture top down instead first. The CS program of a specific school is farther down the list in college decision.

1. What kind of school does he want to go to? University, Liberal Arts, Sports, What area of the country, etc
2. What types of companies does he think he wants to work for: Hi-Tech, Fortune 500, startups, etc. Go to the colleges that they recruit from
3. What types of jobs, if he knows: Software Engineer, DBA, Data Scientist, Scrum Master, Engineering Mgr, etc
4. Where can he get in
5. Grad school?
6. Cost
7. etc

I think you are focused on the details before you've narrowed that down.

I went to a small liberal arts school as a CS major, then got a Masters after and have done well due to an ability to break down problems and use design thinking. It all depends on what's the right fit for *him*
I agree with HornedToad’s points, but I would add this:
8. Consider where he might want to live. Are there local/nearby jobs that he is interested in? In my area there are tons of jobs and, if you were content to stay local, it would be hard to make a compelling case for attending a school “better” than a flagship state school in the larger region (eg SEC). How you perform after you are hired will make more difference in your career than where you went to school.

Just a datapoint...
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by mega317 »

The Broz wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:33 pm
mega317 wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:19 am The first thing I would do is choose a part or parts of the country he wants to live. And what type of school/campus. Narrow this list down to like 10-15. There can't be a huge overlap in people considering USC and Rensselaer. Or BYU and UNC. Maybe I'm wrong about that.
Unless you have the money to be able to pay for basically any school, this is terrible advise. He needs an education bottom line, and if you don't have the means to send him away to anyplace he chooses (i.e. you never have to ask 'how much?' for anything), I think it is horribly irresponsible to pay double or triple what you need to because the campus has nice weather, the girls are pretty, there's a nice lawn to study or whatever the reason is. Unless he gets into an absolute top tier school, the brand name on the diploma is not going to matter much. If he busts his butt in school, that will get him a decent first job. If he busts his butt in that job for a bit, he'll be able to to write his own ticket.
If money is a concern at all, he can go to community college for a bit and transfer to an in-state school. He can live at home to save on housing. I would just caution you to stay away from the mentality that he should be able to spend money he doesn't have for "the college experience".
My two cents.
Did you read my post? I didn't say anything about paying double or triple for nice weather or anything else. I advocated for Champaign.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by gr7070 »

ualdriver wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:01 am He's a good student. He's not getting into a top tier college, but he does pretty well
This is such an easy answer, personally.

Just pick a high-quality state school! Especially so if it's a
(in-state tuition) flagshipp: UT, UM, UW, etc.

All of these posts come down to a simple determination. Are you a Prestigious U'er or are you a Value yet High Quality U'er.

In your child's case they're likely not getting into the (supposed) creme de la creme. So they're, imo, destined for the best answer anyway, which is high-quality value school.

Hell I'll take a 2nd tier, high-reputation value school over the Prestige U all day long! Some of those have a better local reputation among employers than the higher ranked ones anyway.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by gr7070 »

stoptothink wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:52 pm If FAANG is the goal, based solely on their experience, I really doubt the name matter all that much.
If excelling professionally is the goal I strongly feel this way. There are way too many examples from all walks of life being highly successful.

Additionally, I don't think Prestige U has a higher floor for success, either. In the end it's about the person, so why overspend?

Lastly, the worst approach of all is coming out from any institution with large debt.
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by gr7070 »

multiham wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:39 am My replies are never very popular on this subject

Just went through the same type of search with my son who is in his freshmen year studying business.

1. I told him Exactly how much I had saved in the 529 plan and if he went above that, it was going to be covered by loans he would need to pay
2. Had him research the schools and come up with a list of 5 or 6 schools that he was interested in and that he had at least a chance of getting into.
3. I let him figure out what was important to him in terms of location, size, sports, culture, etc. I believe this is critical
4. Visited his top 5 schools. He knew instantly what school he wanted to go to when he took the tour. I'm there to separate the schools marketing from reality.

Many on here will tell you to go to the in-state school, save the $ for an advanced degree. My goal was to have him be happy and to set him up for future success. So far his grades are higher than what he earned in high school, he has adjusted well to moving 750 miles away from home, and his confidence level has increased. His requirements were school in the South with warm weather, about 20,000 students, newer buildings with great technology, and great sports for him to watch. He checked with the career center prior to acceptance to make sure the type of companies he wanted to work for recruited and hired from this school. He couldn't be happier.

My advice is really let you son own this and come back to you with a list. Ask a few questions based on his list, but let him own getting the answers. Its so easy to just step in and do all the work, but the only way they learn is by doing.
1. Where did he choose, curious?

2. I very much like this; though, personally, I'd apply some loving pressure to consider finances in the decision.
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Watty
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Watty »

gr7070 wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:27 pm Lastly, the worst approach of all is coming out from any institution with large debt.
Even worse is a lot of debt and no degree.
walkabout wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:55 pm 8. Consider where he might want to live. Are there local/nearby jobs that he is interested in? In my area there are tons of jobs and, if you were content to stay local, it would be hard to make a compelling case for attending a school “better” than a flagship state school in the larger region (eg SEC). How you perform after you are hired will make more difference in your career than where you went to school.
There is also a significant chance chance that;

1) He will meet his future wife in college and if she has strong family ties to the area then they may settle down there.

2) He will take get his first job at a nearby company even if he did not plan on staying in the area for the long term. Very possibly someplace that he interned or did co-op work at. That could result in settling down in near the college.

In areas with a high cost of living this can change your financial outlook if you will have difficulty in buying a house there.
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