Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

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an_asker
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Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:15 pm

Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by an_asker »

Afty wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:24 am I just want to echo what others have said here, as a former hiring manager at a FAANG company. Software engineering is very egalitarian when it comes to schooling. Where I worked, school would help you get an initial phone screen but was completely irrelevant once you started the interview process. All that mattered at that point was how well you could solve coding problems on the whiteboard. A number of the best people I worked with at that company went to schools I’d never heard of, and some had no degree at all.

I say this as someone who went to an HYPS and would love to be able to say it mattered. But I don’t think I can honestly say that.
Reading this - and other threads I have participated in - I am aware of a schism in the responses where I don't understand what the reality is and where the personal biases of the respondents is taking over.

Elsewhere in this very thread, someone (who is biased in favour of top tanking $$ schools) has very clearly stated that:
- the other low end (i.e., off his/her chart) schools don't even teach the basics of CS
- the FAANG or equivalent company, where the respondent is either a hiring manager or worker, wouldn't even consider hiring from those low end schools

Maybe the difference is only with respect to the first job out of undergrad university, after which all bets are off. Is this something everyone can agree on?
fwellimort
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by fwellimort »

an_asker wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:46 am Reading this - and other threads I have participated in - I am aware of a schism in the responses where I don't understand what the reality is and where the personal biases of the respondents is taking over.

Elsewhere in this very thread, someone (who is biased in favour of top tanking $$ schools) has very clearly stated that:
- the other low end (i.e., off his/her chart) schools don't even teach the basics of CS
- the FAANG or equivalent company, where the respondent is either a hiring manager or worker, wouldn't even consider hiring from those low end schools

Maybe the difference is only with respect to the first job out of undergrad university, after which all bets are off. Is this something everyone can agree on?
Hmm, I don't know about the first part. There definitely are schools that don't teach rigorous theoretical CS.
But I assume that is not the case for most reputable schools. And quite honestly, most of CS is 'useless' for everyday purposes.
Something something co-NP-complete or NP-hard, etc. I don't think these knowledge help in typing print("Hello World") on a screen.

As for the second part, really depends on the FAANG.
Amazon seems pretty egalitarian (also has a reputation for PIP [mass hire and mass fire]).
Facebook on other hand is known to hire disproportionately from top schools.
Netflix don't really hire new grads.

The first job out of undergrad I think will be the biggest difference [for those who attend more reputable schools]. After that, experience starts to matter more.
The first job comes from internships which is generally given to students who attend more reputable schools.
(tbh, it's like a chain. School name -> 'good' internship -> gets 'good' first job -> gets 'good' experience -> gets 'good' second job, etc.
There's always going to be an advantage to being 'ahead' at the start.)

The goal is to do anything to get the online coding challenge followed by the initial phone screen.
Once those two are 'passed', then the rest is purely Leetcode (and hand wave 'object/system design').
The online coding challenge though is weird cause you could get a perfect score with well written code and it wouldn't matter if your resume isn't "up to par" afterwards. And since students at this stage don't have real world experience, college name is the biggest booster to getting the phone screen afterwards.
Like I said, the entire interview system is supposed to look 'merit based' but it really isn't. I (including my peers) was on the other side of the fence back a few years ago and there's a lot of luck involved to even getting the online challenge. Another issue is because a lot of people score so well on the online challenge, the online challenge might not even mean much (especially when answers to these challenges are found online). I believe Twitter was famous for this. Twitter sent the online challenge to many people during my senior year. All my friends (including me) believe we sent 'perfect' code: some of those friends currently work at Google, Jane Street, Bloomberg, Twitch, etc. . None of my friends (including me) got any responses back from Twitter after the challenge. And apparently according to reddit, some people who never did the coding challenge got the phone screen instead. So....

I will say though that as more people join this field, there will be more and more competition.
That might affect the pipeline for experienced entry developers down the line too.

As for pre-covid (no idea currently), if one got a software development job out of college, then one should be able to have a much better chance to these large firms 1~3 years down the road.
As for post-covid world, I have no idea (and I have no idea in the current market either).

Truth is, the basics of Leetcode can be grinded quite quick.
HashMap, DFS, BFS, Topological Sort, Quick Select, PriorityQueue, Dynamic Programming, Tree, Trie, Union Find
After that, it's really just prayers that you get lucky with getting the 'right' interviewer (and a coding question that you remember the answer to).
I have a hard time accepting that such system is 'merit based' especially when not even everyone gets the online coding challenge.
Plus, once the candidate has spent the time to understand the basics, there's nothing the candidate can really do except hope he/she don't get some ridiculous problem during the screening.
Maybe the whiteboard coding made sense in the past. But with enough people 'figuring out' the system, some interviewers now give some absurd problems that can only really be solved by having seen the answer before. A lot of people in Blind are frustrated about this too as the level of questions have increased over time. Facebook for instance can have (very unfortunate case) 2 Leetcode Hard in a phone screen. Meanwhile, some other candidate can get 1 Leetcode Easy and Medium. It's ... ya.
inbox788
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by inbox788 »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:12 pm I have heard more good things about RoseH than I would expect for a school of its size.
Ski Terre Haute!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IPgGmLexzY

[Before there was Photoshop. I always thought it was real, albeit staged, until now.]

Some say it's one of the Big 3 Tech schools, and some consider it the MIT of the Midwest.
Normchad
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Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:20 am

Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Normchad »

inbox788 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:13 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:12 pm I have heard more good things about RoseH than I would expect for a school of its size.
Ski Terre Haute!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IPgGmLexzY

[Before there was Photoshop. I always thought it was real, albeit staged, until now.]

Some say it's one of the Big 3 Tech schools, and some consider it the MIT of the Midwest.
It can be a funny thing. I was certainly aware of Rose Hulman back in 1987 in high school. No internet back then, but they did send a lot of glossy brochures to the house, and I knew they were good.

Smaller schools are interesting. Here in the NOVA area, we are close to John’s Hopkins, William and Mary, and Washington & Lee. All are superb schools. But nobody I have ever met as a parent expresses any interest in sending their kids their. I say it’s funny, because I know that W&M at least, is a dream school for a lot of OOS students.
stoptothink
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by stoptothink »

Normchad wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:16 pm
inbox788 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:13 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:12 pm I have heard more good things about RoseH than I would expect for a school of its size.
Ski Terre Haute!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IPgGmLexzY

[Before there was Photoshop. I always thought it was real, albeit staged, until now.]

Some say it's one of the Big 3 Tech schools, and some consider it the MIT of the Midwest.
It can be a funny thing. I was certainly aware of Rose Hulman back in 1987 in high school. No internet back then, but they did send a lot of glossy brochures to the house, and I knew they were good.

Smaller schools are interesting. Here in the NOVA area, we are close to John’s Hopkins, William and Mary, and Washington & Lee. All are superb schools. But nobody I have ever met as a parent expresses any interest in sending their kids their. I say it’s funny, because I know that W&M at least, is a dream school for a lot of OOS students.
My right hand man at work did his undergrad at John's Hopkins, his sister is currently there, and another former employee is headed there for her PhD (we're in Utah, not Baltimore or NOVA area). I would have assumed that for anybody considering biology, bioengineering, chemical engineering, etc. that JH would have been on the short list of "dream schools".
Normchad
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Normchad »

stoptothink wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:25 pm
Normchad wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:16 pm
inbox788 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:13 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:12 pm I have heard more good things about RoseH than I would expect for a school of its size.
Ski Terre Haute!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IPgGmLexzY

[Before there was Photoshop. I always thought it was real, albeit staged, until now.]

Some say it's one of the Big 3 Tech schools, and some consider it the MIT of the Midwest.
It can be a funny thing. I was certainly aware of Rose Hulman back in 1987 in high school. No internet back then, but they did send a lot of glossy brochures to the house, and I knew they were good.

Smaller schools are interesting. Here in the NOVA area, we are close to John’s Hopkins, William and Mary, and Washington & Lee. All are superb schools. But nobody I have ever met as a parent expresses any interest in sending their kids their. I say it’s funny, because I know that W&M at least, is a dream school for a lot of OOS students.
My right hand man at work did his undergrad at John's Hopkins, his sister is currently there, and another former employee is headed there for her PhD (we're in Utah, not Baltimore or NOVA area). I would have assumed that for anybody considering biology, bioengineering, chemical engineering, etc. that JH would have been on the short list of "dream schools".
I hired a John’s Hopkins computer science grad who grew up in the NOVA area. He’s great.

As with all new college grads, I asked him why he choose to go that school. And he’s the only one that’s ever answered by saying “because I thought I’d get the best education there.”
malabargold
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by malabargold »

Harvard’s CS 50 is available for anyone to sit in on.
DIYtrixie
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by DIYtrixie »

inbox788 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:13 pm Ski Terre Haute!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IPgGmLexzY

[Before there was Photoshop. I always thought it was real, albeit staged, until now.]

Some say it's one of the Big 3 Tech schools, and some consider it the MIT of the Midwest.
Hah! That’s a good one — I’ll add “sense of fun” to the list of positives.
TheHiker
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by TheHiker »

an_asker wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:46 am Reading this - and other threads I have participated in - I am aware of a schism in the responses where I don't understand what the reality is and where the personal biases of the respondents is taking over.

Elsewhere in this very thread, someone (who is biased in favour of top tanking $$ schools) has very clearly stated that:
- the other low end (i.e., off his/her chart) schools don't even teach the basics of CS
- the FAANG or equivalent company, where the respondent is either a hiring manager or worker, wouldn't even consider hiring from those low end schools

Maybe the difference is only with respect to the first job out of undergrad university, after which all bets are off. Is this something everyone can agree on?
I did meet a handful of people in the industry who claimed "I won't even interview a person if they did not graduate from Stanford or Berkeley".
So having a diploma from a top school may open some doors. In practice though I this will only matter for getting the very first job out of college and only to a small degree. After that nobody ever looks at your diploma. Half the engineers in top tech companies have diplomas from foreign countries anyway.
CS programs in most schools are similar. It is up to the student to learn the basics.

For FAANGs there is a difference in the hiring approach which may explain why certain companies hire more top school grads.
For example, F and G have rigorous interviews and reject the vast majority of applicants. This is similar to the rigorous process at the top schools and will generally favor the same group of people. Their hiring decisions are made by the committee, not by the hiring manager so one person's bias should not affect the outcome.
On the other hand, Amazon interviews are less rigorous, they hire more people and then aggressively fire underperformers.
Elysium
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by Elysium »

As someone who was involved in screening candidates for campus interviews for a once upon a time 'big blue' tech - the method followed was look at GPA posted at the top of resume and the major then school. Things may be different in the tech world today with twitter, fb, google, etc. But when I did this, anytime there is a MIT graduate they usually get picked for an interview regardless of GPA or major, but then a high GPA student with CS major got selected for interview no matter what school they went to. This was because, you always wanted to interview the students who did CS major with high GPA, then look at school credentials. CS majors with high GPA are not floating around freely, and employers are thirsty for hiring them, so you always grabbed those resumes.

Obviously an MIT grad with high GPA and CS major always got picked first, but those were non-existent in the pile of resumes I had looked at. The MIT grads always seemed to have lower GPA, and the ones big-blue tech received were all non CS engineering. It is no secret that the MIT, Stanford, etc graduates with CS major would have gone to the current hot tech favorites. After that, there is still plenty of Tech companies with a lot of tech jobs that goes unfilled. These positions either get foreign workers from even lesser known schools, or go unfilled. Every CS candidate thinks they should all end up working for Twitter, facebook, google, etc, like everyone wanted to work for Microsoft once. It isn't possible, and it isn't needed.

This is what I told my son too as he pursue a CS degree, he is somewhat dejected for not getting into top CS programs. School, GPA, CS major in that order of course can top everything else, but this is a very difficult combination to get right, as you get into top school you aren't likely to get top GPA, or even graduate with a CS degree. Instead, GPA and CS major tops everything else for a fresh graduate, then comes school. You can overcome school name by having first two, then lots of coding, self learning, and certifications.

Lastly, strong math foundational credits are the most important classes for a strong CS foundation, because one can always learn a new programming language, systems architecture, O/S fundamentals, computing theory, etc always on your own, since most of the stuff is free, and new things are always being created. But, Math cannot be learned once you go past certain age, it has to be at the University level. The strongest CS programs all have this in common, they have several more credits of Math theory needed, such as Differential Equations, Multivariable Calculus, Discreet math, and Combinatorics. The last one is available only at the strongest programs such as CMU, GT. But the student can minor in Math and take several such courses from the University they are attending. This will then give them flexibility to study advanced CS theory on their own. My son is looking at Pitt, they have an agreement with CMU next door that allows students taking up cross courses at either college, and some kids do take this up. To sum up, high GPA, CS major, and strong math courses is the path for a great start. Obviously, up to kids to do what they need to.
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ualdriver
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by ualdriver »

I'm the OP of this thread......

To tie a ribbon around the thread, after much research, many college visits, and a generous academic scholarship that will significantly reduce Mom and Dad's collegiate financial pain, he chose Michigan Tech.

Thanks to all of you for the advice that was given to us on this thread over the past several months.
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dogagility
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by dogagility »

Great school! :beer
Make sure you check out my list of certifications. The list is short, and there aren't any. - Eric 0. from SMA
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22twain
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Re: Choosing a university/college for my son a future Computer Science Major

Post by 22twain »

So he "said yah to da U.P., eh!" :beer

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