Refinance Mega Thread

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aln10788
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:04 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by aln10788 »

midebo wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:00 pm Hi folks,

Devoted lurker here, immensely thankful for all the tips on getting the best deal via Better and wanted to share my experience now that we have closed:

This was our 2nd refi in 18 months -- our first one, in the early weeks of the pandemic, took us from a 4.05% 30yr to a 3.25% 30yr. This time -- with lower rates, an increase in our household cash flow, and a desire to build equity faster -- we were able to move to a 20yr.

We ended up at 2.25% with $1,018 lender credit on a ~$540,000 loan on our single family primary residence in DC. Roughly 60% LTV, credit in 760s, appraisal waived. A+B+C+E=$1,905. We ended up writing a small check at close to keep our P&I at a nice even $2,800.

The whole process went smoothly from lock on 9/17 to close on 10/7. Loan was funded, as expected, on 10/13. I will update when AmEx credit is posted.

A couple notes:

Don't apply through the AmEx portal. Because I did, the LO knew from the get-go I was aware of and interested in the AmEx offer and she declined to match quotes from other lenders with higher credits (LenderFi, Loan Cabin, Loan Depot) because she noted I would still be coming out ahead with the AmEx offer. Best to apply directly from Better.com then start negotiating, asking for the AmEx offer only after you have locked.

Make sure you are locking the most advantageous Bankrate offer even if you have no intention of choosing that particular product. Yes, this will be repetitive to longtime followers of this thread but I did not wrap my mind around it until after I had locked: You are locking an entire rate table not just a single rate for a single product. Make a simple spreadsheet with the rate and associated points/credits for each product offered on Better's website (15yr/20yr/30yr) vs. the lowest zero-point offers for each corresponding product on Bankrate. Find the product with the biggest point/credit delta, and ask your LO to match that one. You will end up ahead on all the other products.

If you screw something up, just ask. When I realized I left about $1,000 on the table by asking my LO to match the wrong rate, I sent her a polite email saying I felt nagged that I had not gotten the best possible rate and pointed out -- again, politely -- that left a bad taste in my mouth in light on Better's stated emphasis on transparency. I asked if she could meet halfway with $500 in credits, and lo and behold she gave me basically 100% of the credits I would have gotten had I locked the most advantageous Bankrate offer. I was pleasantly surprised because rates had ticked up in the interim and they would have been wholly justified in telling me to pound sand.

Hope this is helpful -- especially to those who might not have the time or patience to sift through 3-to-4 months of posts on this extremely helpful thread.
I did this whole process in summer of 2020 but it was kind of a pain trying to get the best rates from lenders without locking. Is that basically the only way to get their real rates now? You seem to be saying the best strategy is to just find the best rate on bankrate or zillow and submit all the paperwork necessary to lock in a rate with said company to lock in that rate table to then use for a better rate with Better.com. Last time I just used LenderFi and Loan Depot because it was known they had the best rates to use for Better.com to match.
topcatin
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by topcatin »

Malum Prohibitum wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:08 am
BitTooAggressive wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:50 am
topcatin wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:51 pm Going from 15 yr to 30 yr for flexibility after a year.

Current Mortgage with Lenderfi- $190k , 15 year , 2.625%

Better.com offer -
2.75% ( 30 year , 0 points)
Section A - $0
B - $64
Section C - $1456 (Title services)
Section D - $1520 (A+B+C)
Section E - $100 (recording fee)
Section F - Prepaids - $2314 (
Section G - 3 months escrow - $757
Section H - 0 (Pending Amex credit)
Section I - (E+F+G+H) = $3171
Total Costs - D+I = $4691

There are no lender credits.

Lenderfi will do a no-cost refinance for a 30 year - 3%.

My property tax was just paid by the current lender, so $2100 will be deducted when closing. So actual cost for this loan will be ($4691-$2100) = $2591
After the $2k credit, the cost is $591?

Am I calculating this right?
Make a few phone calls. Find a better rate on the title insurance. Tell better you want to go with the other company because of price. Better will match.
Are there any in particular that folks are going with on this thread or finding easy and cheap, or is title insurance a local market?
Took the advise on this thread and contacted radian for title services. It was $400 cheaper. Better said, they will update that info on the LE when getting closer to closing.
Trust_In_TylerDurden
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:57 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Trust_In_TylerDurden »

Hi folks,

Delighted to share my experience now that we have closed with Better.com. Great overall experience with Better.com process ++

This was our 1st refinance 3.87% 30yr to a 2.75% 30yr. I compared with LoanCabin, LoanDepot, 101loan (local lender), Interactive Mortgage. interactivemortgage had the closest next best offer.

We ended with Better (using Bankrate screenshot hack) at 2.75% with $4,951 lender credit on a ~$540,000 loan on our single family primary residence in California. Credit in 770s, no debt, 54% LTV

TOTAL LOAN COSTS (A + B + C): $1,729 (zero points origination costs). My AmEx credit card application was denied saying 'too many cards were closed' so could not really get the credit. Services I could shop for: [ Title- Lende􏰁􏰄rs Title Insurance: $575, Title-Settlement Fee: $540 ]. I did not shop for these as I did not feel it was worth much savings, but you can try other firms. Better works very closely with their own preferred title company which makes process smooth and fast and i went for less hassle and speed.

TIPS:
(1) Do Bankrate screenshot matching. (as one of the screenshots on Bankrate, make sure you choose filter with zero points), save all the screenshots with a conservative appraisal value if you don't have appraisal already. Make sure date is visible in screenshot before you send it to your loan officer.
Ask them to match the offer on Bankrate and ask them to produce an updated rate table.

(2) I took the screenshot and got an interest rate with 2.65 30 yr, but once they presented the rate table, a saw a better option for 2.75 30 yr with $4,951 lender credit. Read member (midebo) excellent advice below to follow the process in a smart way. I think, now, you can see the rate table on the better.com portal itself and choose a different interest rate/loan period etc even though your screenshot shows a particular combination.
Make sure you are locking the most advantageous Bankrate offer even if you have no intention of choosing that particular product. Yes, this will be repetitive to longtime followers of this thread but I did not wrap my mind around it until after I had locked: You are locking an entire rate table not just a single rate for a single product. Make a simple spreadsheet with the rate and associated points/credits for each product offered on Better's website (15yr/20yr/30yr) vs. the lowest zero-point offers for each corresponding product on Bankrate. Find the product with the biggest point/credit delta, and ask your LO to match that one. You will end up ahead on all the other products.
(3) the better.com loan guy was junior and frequently was slow to follow up and messed up some details on the application. you have to be on top of their work, call them frequently and follow up diligently. the overall process is smooth, but many times it helped to keep calling them and asking them to push the loan team. they do get stuck and forget about you, so nothing happens if you don't take the initiative and ask for it. you can book a time on their calendar directly in advance. Lesson: be pro-active. don't wait for them. push them along each step.

(4) if there are delays, ask for an extension for free. they will offer to charge you a fee per day, but i pushed against it and they gave me a 5 day extension for free. i had a new job starting after i applied and my paystub was going to come a few days towards the end. i had disclosed that in advance. It was their fault that they did not take my pay stub dates into account. The below are comments/cost from the loan officer:
Given the information above, as mentioned before in our conversations, a potential lock extension fee may apply. Lock extensions impose certain costs on either the borrower or lender. Since it is the case that we are waiting for your documentation to move your loan forward, the team may impose the lock extension fees to your loan. Lock extensions are calculated on a daily basis (Loan amount multiplied by 0.0002). I hope this does not come as a surprise. Now, I do want to stress that you have been working diligently with me on providing documentation & information, so I have negotiated diligently with the pricing team that we will incur HALF of any of the applicable lock extension fees. These fees are non-negotiable. Hope this helps.
Good luck and definitely give better a chance despite their bad PR recently. They do have a GREAT online process with less hassle. Use bankrate screenshots hack. Thanks to all the amazing people on this thread. The wisdom saved me lots of money :moneybag and time. Lot's of gratitude to this community. :sharebeer
Last edited by Trust_In_TylerDurden on Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
taaray
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Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:03 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by taaray »

Hey all - Just posting to encourage anyone that is on the fence to get through the process as great rates are still out there.

I started poking around a few months ago but couldn't find the time. From this thread I looked at Better but it seems that I didn't get a great loan advisor as they were quite unresponsive to email and yet his staff still called and texted me constantly despite my email only preference. Ultimately I didn't wait for Better to match their advertised cost on Bankrate. I instead took their loan estimate, sent it to the local branch of Big Bank that I knew would hold the mortgage. They were able to match the offer after a little back and forth and it's now in underwriting. Only downside is they want me to keep a substantial portion of cash in my checking account until the refinance is closed. I thought it would be an annoying experience after Better's simple UI but the loan advisor's etiquette and responsiveness was a breath of fresh air and I had no trouble sending everything online.

End of the day I'm lowering my rate by 1.5% with enough lender credits to cover the loan cost and then some. Fingers crossed it all goes well. Good luck to those that are still looking and don't neglect your local credit union or big bank as a place to match your Better offer.
topcatin
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by topcatin »

Hey,

Need some input here..I shopped around for title-services and got a rate cheaper than Better.com's rate. Radian quote - $1088
Better just said my title came clean. I just realized that I could have asked the previous title insurance company(Amrock) for a "reissued" rate. Is it too late to do this?
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

topcatin wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:56 am Hey,

Need some input here..I shopped around for title-services and got a rate cheaper than Better.com's rate. Radian quote - $1088
Better just said my title came clean. I just realized that I could have asked the previous title insurance company(Amrock) for a "reissued" rate. Is it too late to do this?
No it isn’t. But be sure you give enough time between when you switch and your rate lock expiring for it to be redone. If you are three weeks away from the lock, you have plenty of time.

Alternatively, if the existing provider is Better Settlement Services, you can send Better Mortgage your Radian quote and ask them to see if BSS will match it.
topcatin
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:58 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by topcatin »

BrandonBogle wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:52 am
topcatin wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:56 am Hey,

Need some input here..I shopped around for title-services and got a rate cheaper than Better.com's rate. Radian quote - $1088
Better just said my title came clean. I just realized that I could have asked the previous title insurance company(Amrock) for a "reissued" rate. Is it too late to do this?
No it isn’t. But be sure you give enough time between when you switch and your rate lock expiring for it to be redone. If you are three weeks away from the lock, you have plenty of time.

Alternatively, if the existing provider is Better Settlement Services, you can send Better Mortgage your Radian quote and ask them to see if BSS will match it.
I have time till the 30th for my rate-lock. The reissued rate for Amrock was like $100 more than last time and they gave a discount of $3 on some title fee. And increased other stuff..seriously? I asked them to go and see if this is really a re-issued rate. Is this really what they call a discount?
presto987
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by presto987 »

Hi folks, it has been 5 months since my last refi with LoanDepot, so I just started poking around to look at rates late last week. My strategy is to refi every 6 months and get the maximum lender credit possible. The reason for waiting 6 months is just so that each lender can get compensated for the loan.

My last two refis were with LoanDepot, who were willing to offer enough lender credit to cover the full amount of fees + prepaids + escrow. By maxing out my lender credit, I was able to net around $25k (after all fees) in total across the two refis.

In comparison, Better's cap of $5k on lender credit is much less interesting to me. However, with the $2k Amex offer, it's possible to net around $5500 after fees, which isn't bad. But my plan was to wait until January to refi again with LD.

Last week I saw Better advertising 1.875% no points on smartasset.com (thanks to the tip I saw here). I set up a Better application and asked them to match their rate, which they did. I had no intention of going with a 15-year loan, but this seemed to be the best option for improving my rate table. I then decided to lock a 2.125% 5-year ARM with $4980 lender credit.

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to lock until a loan officer fixed something in my file, which happened today. By that time though, the credits on the 5-year ARM deteriorated significantly (by thousands of dollars). But go figure - I was able to move to a 7-year ARM at 2.125% with only $50 less credit than what I was originally planning to lock, which was way better than what my 5-year ARM pricing was showing. It's like my rate table was messed up, but I wasn't complaining.

Question: Does Radian still work with Better and generally offer cheaper pricing on title? I emailed the clientrelations email address last week but haven't heard back. Is that still the best way to get a quote?
atwnsw
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Joined: Sat May 19, 2012 11:44 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by atwnsw »

Would somebody please explain the concept behind taking a screenshot of a rate table (for example 15 yr loan) if I am only interested in a 30 yr conventional cash out refinance loan?

In an earlier post, it was explained as such:
"You are locking an entire rate table not just a single rate for a single product. Make a simple spreadsheet with the rate and associated points/credits for each product offered on Better's website (15yr/20yr/30yr) vs. the lowest zero-point offers for each corresponding product on Bankrate. Find the product with the biggest point/credit delta, and ask your LO to match that one. You will end up ahead on all the other products."

I am great with spreadsheets but unclear how one compares a 15yr zero-point offer with a 30yr zero-point cashout refinance. It seems like apples and oranges to a lender. How do you ask them to pricematch a shorter duration and then say "oh, not the 15 yr that you just PMd at 2% but rather the 30 yr at 3.0%?"

Please help this moron understand the concept.

Thanks in advance.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

atwnsw wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:28 pm Would somebody please explain the concept behind taking a screenshot of a rate table (for example 15 yr loan) if I am only interested in a 30 yr conventional cash out refinance loan?

In an earlier post, it was explained as such:
"You are locking an entire rate table not just a single rate for a single product. Make a simple spreadsheet with the rate and associated points/credits for each product offered on Better's website (15yr/20yr/30yr) vs. the lowest zero-point offers for each corresponding product on Bankrate. Find the product with the biggest point/credit delta, and ask your LO to match that one. You will end up ahead on all the other products."

I am great with spreadsheets but unclear how one compares a 15yr zero-point offer with a 30yr zero-point cashout refinance. It seems like apples and oranges to a lender. How do you ask them to pricematch a shorter duration and then say "oh, not the 15 yr that you just PMd at 2% but rather the 30 yr at 3.0%?"

Please help this moron understand the concept.

Thanks in advance.
Let's make up some numbers. Say you are looking at the 15 year 1.875% on Bankrate for $2,000 and it is $4,500 on Better. Let's also say you see 30 year 2.5% on Bankrate for $1,000 and it is $2,000 on Better. Since the gap on the 15 year is $2,500 vs the gap on the 30 year of $1,000, it is better to have Better match the 15-year rate at 1.875%, even if that isn't the rate or term you ultimately want to pick. So if you want to squeeze that extra last bit out, make a spreadsheet of each of the rate tables Better is offering you and compare the difference for each rate to what Bankrate is offering.
topcatin
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by topcatin »

BrandonBogle wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:52 am
topcatin wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:56 am Hey,

Need some input here..I shopped around for title-services and got a rate cheaper than Better.com's rate. Radian quote - $1088
Better just said my title came clean. I just realized that I could have asked the previous title insurance company(Amrock) for a "reissued" rate. Is it too late to do this?
No it isn’t. But be sure you give enough time between when you switch and your rate lock expiring for it to be redone. If you are three weeks away from the lock, you have plenty of time.

Alternatively, if the existing provider is Better Settlement Services, you can send Better Mortgage your Radian quote and ask them to see if BSS will match it.
Decided to stick with Radian, Refinance is moving along and title is done. Just waiting now for the closing.
Malum Prohibitum
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Malum Prohibitum »

BrandonBogle wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:53 pm Section F is managed by the closing/title agent, while Section G is handled by Better. Is the amount in Section G and is actually just a few months of initial funding vs. the actual April payment?

Section F f my Lean Estimate shows "Transfer Taxes." My state, Georgia, charges a transfer tax on a sale at $1 per $1000 of the sale price, but not on a refinance, that is, the transfer must involve a transfer from buyer to seller. No transfer tax is imposed on the filing of a security deed. Is this a scam by the closing/title agent or just an honest mistake?

I will raise it with the lender, but I was curious whether anybody else had encountered this. I was unaware that the closing/title agent handled Section F, and thought I raising this directly with Better was all that was going to be required.
DMB41
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by DMB41 »

presto987 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:05 pm Question: Does Radian still work with Better and generally offer cheaper pricing on title? I emailed the clientrelations email address last week but haven't heard back. Is that still the best way to get a quote?
It seems to be state dependent. Radian said they didn't operate in my state, only "a select number of states." It's worth asking, which you've already done, since many on this thread have had success and better prices.
DMB41
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by DMB41 »

Malum Prohibitum wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:00 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:53 pm Section F is managed by the closing/title agent, while Section G is handled by Better. Is the amount in Section G and is actually just a few months of initial funding vs. the actual April payment?

Section F f my Lean Estimate shows "Transfer Taxes." My state, Georgia, charges a transfer tax on a sale at $1 per $1000 of the sale price, but not on a refinance, that is, the transfer must involve a transfer from buyer to seller. No transfer tax is imposed on the filing of a security deed. Is this a scam by the closing/title agent or just an honest mistake?

I will raise it with the lender, but I was curious whether anybody else had encountered this. I was unaware that the closing/title agent handled Section F, and thought I raising this directly with Better was all that was going to be required.
Section F, especially any taxes, will get fixed as you get closer to closing and you go into underwriting(?). The estimate, especially if you are early on in the process with Better, is likely to be off. Mine was way off (they had me paying 12 months of property taxes when I didn't need to pay any), but was fixed eventually.
atwnsw
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by atwnsw »

Okay, I am completely fried after continually digesting the above information and will gladly pay somebody $50 for 30 minutes of your time if you are an expert at playing this game. Just email me at tampaone@gmail.com (normally my spam address) and we can schedule a time to talk. I am overwhelmed at the best course of action and need to move as I am now 60 days out from getting my CO on the house and want to lock in the best possible rate. I realize this may be a little unorthodox but we are talking big numbers and I am tired of spinning my wheels. My head is exhausted.
Thanks in advance.
DMB41
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Location: Rocket City

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by DMB41 »

atwnsw wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:28 pm Would somebody please explain the concept behind taking a screenshot of a rate table (for example 15 yr loan) if I am only interested in a 30 yr conventional cash out refinance loan?

In an earlier post, it was explained as such:
"You are locking an entire rate table not just a single rate for a single product. Make a simple spreadsheet with the rate and associated points/credits for each product offered on Better's website (15yr/20yr/30yr) vs. the lowest zero-point offers for each corresponding product on Bankrate. Find the product with the biggest point/credit delta, and ask your LO to match that one. You will end up ahead on all the other products."

I am great with spreadsheets but unclear how one compares a 15yr zero-point offer with a 30yr zero-point cashout refinance. It seems like apples and oranges to a lender. How do you ask them to pricematch a shorter duration and then say "oh, not the 15 yr that you just PMd at 2% but rather the 30 yr at 3.0%?"

Please help this moron understand the concept.

Thanks in advance.
This post has some more in-depth information and does a good job explaining it in my opinion.

viewtopic.php?p=6200418#p6200418
atwnsw wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:21 am Okay, I am completely fried after continually digesting the above information and will gladly pay somebody $50 for 30 minutes of your time if you are an expert at playing this game. Just email me at [removed email] (normally my spam address) and we can schedule a time to talk. I am overwhelmed at the best course of action and need to move as I am now 60 days out from getting my CO on the house and want to lock in the best possible rate. I realize this may be a little unorthodox but we are talking big numbers and I am tired of spinning my wheels. My head is exhausted.
Thanks in advance.
Do you have specific questions that you can list? Plenty of people here would be happy to help for free. :D There are also quite a few posts throughout this thread that give a pretty good summary of what to do to get the best rates.
atwnsw
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by atwnsw »

Okay, let me explain my confusion:

State of the Union:
Primary Residence - No Mortgage.

Secondary Residence - Paid $600k Cash for a house in November 2020. Vacation house undergoing renovation and will have the CO within the next 45-60 days max. I financed the remodel, current balance $629k but will exceed $647.2k in the next 30 days. Anything over that amount, I wish to pay cash. So, my goal is to finance the $647.2k using conventional mortgage on vacation house. The remodel is currently being financed by borrowing from a credit line using the assets (stocks) in a revocable trust in my name. I want to pay off the credit line line and borrow on the second property using fixed rate 30 yr loan. My wife is co-borrower/owner on the house (her name is not on the trust) and candidly has even better credit than I do. So, as I understand it, this may be considered a cash out refinance loan even though the loan is not a traditional mortgage that I am refinancing but a credit line secured by my stocks in a trust. 100% of the balance in the credit line is from payments to the builder.

House should be worth $1.2M so roughly 50% LTV.

My goal is to lock in 60 day rate if possible.

I have read that I need to apply to 5-15 lenders but that is confusing to me as I can't imagine that there is benefit from that many soft pulls. What should be my first step with the various lenders:

I have spoken to a local bank in NC where vacation house is located, mortgage broker, applied to better.com (soft pull only) as well as national banks to include Truist and Regions bank. At this point, no hard pulls. No complete applications submitted. I am trying to make sure that I do this next phase using your insight.

Please advise about where to actually begin:
Do I do hard applications to the above lenders? Soft Pull only? How many should I pursue simultaneously?

Oh yeah, most importantly, I applied with Better.com and they charge points so how can I compare a 30yr, 3.0%, 997 points to the other lenders?
Also, they offer 45 day, 60 and 75 day locks. How do I compare those?

Example:
Better.com quoted 3%, 30 yr, $997 points w/ 45 day lock.
Bankrate.com shows the following lender when I sort using 0 points:
Villa, 30 yr, 0 points at 2.625%
or
Sage, 30 yr, $989 points at 2.625%
How do I get Better to match?

Thanks in advance.
DMB41
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by DMB41 »

atwnsw wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:00 am My goal is to lock in 60 day rate if possible.

I have read that I need to apply to 5-15 lenders but that is confusing to me as I can't imagine that there is benefit from that many soft pulls. What should be my first step with the various lenders:

I have spoken to a local bank in NC where vacation house is located, mortgage broker, applied to better.com (soft pull only) as well as national banks to include Truist and Regions bank. At this point, no hard pulls. No complete applications submitted. I am trying to make sure that I do this next phase using your insight.

Please advise about where to actually begin:
Do I do hard applications to the above lenders? Soft Pull only? How many should I pursue simultaneously?

Oh yeah, most importantly, I applied with Better.com and they charge points so how can I compare a 30yr, 3.0%, 997 points to the other lenders?
Also, they offer 45 day, 60 and 75 day locks. How do I compare those?

Thanks in advance.
I am not an expert on this by any means and I'll let other correct me if I'm wrong, but I'll answer some of your questions based on what I've learned from reading this thread.
I have read that I need to apply to 5-15 lenders but that is confusing to me as I can't imagine that there is benefit from that many soft pulls. What should be my first step with the various lenders:
You're right that 15 is definitely too much. 3-5 is probably sufficient. You're then probably wondering, "Well which ones do I apply too?" That is where the experience in this thread comes in. Better.com is by far the most popular here as they've been the most competitve in general and they currently offer a $2k American Express credit if you close with them (assuming you have a Amex card). Loan Depot and Loan Cabin are probably the other most common online lenders. It's probably worth getting an estimate from a reputable local lender, bank, or credit union, maybe one you already bank with. You can pretty much forget about any of the big national banks giving you anything remotely competitive.
Do I do hard applications to the above lenders? Soft Pull only? How many should I pursue simultaneously?
Soft to start with all. I wouldn't fool with a hard pull with any until you are convinced they can be competitive, which you should know once they provide a loan estimate.
Please advise about where to actually begin:
To begin, you need to essentially pick the lender with the most competitive rate and then get the others lenders to fight it out over you. The experience from this thread will lead you to see that Better.com typically ends up with the most competitive rate so most people end up choosing them to start with. They also have one of the best online portals out there and it makes it easy to see all the different rates they offer in one place and update it at any time (before you lock at least).

Start with Better and ask them to match the best rate advertised on Bankrate, Zillow or SmartAsset. This may require a hard pull I don't remember. Look at this post for information on how to do that properly: viewtopic.php?p=6200418#p6200418

Once they update your rate table, select the rate you are interested in and send that Loan Estimate to all the other lenders that you are working with and let the fighting begin.

I think that should give you a good starting point. Ask more questions and we'll gladly help!
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

DMB41 wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:50 am Start with Better and ask them to match the best rate advertised on Bankrate, Zillow or SmartAsset. This may require a hard pull I don't remember. Look at this post for information on how to do that properly: viewtopic.php?p=6200418#p6200418

Once they update your rate table, select the rate you are interested in and send that Loan Estimate to all the other lenders that you are working with and let the fighting begin.

I think that should give you a good starting point. Ask more questions and we'll gladly help!
That would be a soft pull, then have them match their own advertised rate at whichever site they are offering the best, then select your rate and saving the Loan Estimate (feel free to pick multiple rates and terms and save each LE). To lock, that’s when you will need the hard pull.

I just completed my 8th refi with Better in two years. For the last three, I didn’t even bother cross-shopping after having Better matched their advertised rate on those sites. But I’m also a serial refinancer, so I’m fine with just sticking to a process that isn’t time consuming and getting a rate that is “good enough.”
presto987
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by presto987 »

presto987 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:05 pm Hi folks, it has been 5 months since my last refi with LoanDepot, so I just started poking around to look at rates late last week. My strategy is to refi every 6 months and get the maximum lender credit possible. The reason for waiting 6 months is just so that each lender can get compensated for the loan.

My last two refis were with LoanDepot, who were willing to offer enough lender credit to cover the full amount of fees + prepaids + escrow. By maxing out my lender credit, I was able to net around $25k (after all fees) in total across the two refis.

In comparison, Better's cap of $5k on lender credit is much less interesting to me. However, with the $2k Amex offer, it's possible to net around $5500 after fees, which isn't bad. But my plan was to wait until January to refi again with LD.

Last week I saw Better advertising 1.875% no points on smartasset.com (thanks to the tip I saw here). I set up a Better application and asked them to match their rate, which they did. I had no intention of going with a 15-year loan, but this seemed to be the best option for improving my rate table. I then decided to lock a 2.125% 5-year ARM with $4980 lender credit.

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to lock until a loan officer fixed something in my file, which happened today. By that time though, the credits on the 5-year ARM deteriorated significantly (by thousands of dollars). But go figure - I was able to move to a 7-year ARM at 2.125% with only $50 less credit than what I was originally planning to lock, which was way better than what my 5-year ARM pricing was showing. It's like my rate table was messed up, but I wasn't complaining.

Question: Does Radian still work with Better and generally offer cheaper pricing on title? I emailed the clientrelations email address last week but haven't heard back. Is that still the best way to get a quote?
Wow. I applied to Better less than a week ago, and now they are working on my closing disclosure. Including the Amex offer, I will be making around $5200-5400 net of fees through this refi (reason for the range is that I'm getting mixed messages about the payoff fees charged by my current lender).

I could have made a lot more if I waited a month to re-apply with LoanDepot, as LoanDepot allows more lender credit. That said, I guess it's not bad to get this one out of the way and then go again with LD next time.
atwnsw
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Joined: Sat May 19, 2012 11:44 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by atwnsw »

Is there a website where I can compare rates (I am not talking about bankrate, zillow, etc..)?

For example, Loan Amount $647k, 30 Yr, 2nd home, Refinance.

Hypothetical Rates:
Option A) 2.65 % w/ $2k Points/Origination Fee
vs
Option B) 2.75% w/ $0k Points/Origination Fee
vs
Option C) 2.85% w/ -$2k Lending Credit

What tool will help me determine the best path forward assuming I hold the mortgage until maturity?
There has to be a present value or some tool to compare cost/benefit analysis of paying down rate but I don't know what it is.

Thanks
User avatar
BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

atwnsw wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:28 pm Is there a website where I can compare rates (I am not talking about bankrate, zillow, etc..)?

For example, Loan Amount $647k, 30 Yr, 2nd home, Refinance.

Hypothetical Rates:
Option A) 2.65 % w/ $2k Points/Origination Fee
vs
Option B) 2.75% w/ $0k Points/Origination Fee
vs
Option C) 2.85% w/ -$2k Lending Credit

What tool will help me determine the best path forward assuming I hold the mortgage until maturity?
There has to be a present value or some tool to compare cost/benefit analysis of paying down rate but I don't know what it is.

Thanks
Use an amortization calculator to determine the total interest of the loan (I’m saying this based on your “hold until maturity statement”, or else I’d say 5-10 years), then add points/subtract credits from that. Then compare those totals.
atwnsw
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Joined: Sat May 19, 2012 11:44 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by atwnsw »

BrandonBogle wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:44 pm
atwnsw wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:28 pm Is there a website where I can compare rates (I am not talking about bankrate, zillow, etc..)?

For example, Loan Amount $647k, 30 Yr, 2nd home, Refinance.

Hypothetical Rates:
Option A) 2.65 % w/ $2k Points/Origination Fee
vs
Option B) 2.75% w/ $0k Points/Origination Fee
vs
Option C) 2.85% w/ -$2k Lending Credit

What tool will help me determine the best path forward assuming I hold the mortgage until maturity?
There has to be a present value or some tool to compare cost/benefit analysis of paying down rate but I don't know what it is.

Thanks
Use an amortization calculator to determine the total interest of the loan (I’m saying this based on your “hold until maturity statement”, or else I’d say 5-10 years), then add points/subtract credits from that. Then compare those totals.
If I take the total interest from a 30 yr loan and +/- origination fees, isn’t that mixing a future value (total interest) and present value (origination fee)?
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

atwnsw wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:58 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:44 pm
atwnsw wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:28 pm Is there a website where I can compare rates (I am not talking about bankrate, zillow, etc..)?

For example, Loan Amount $647k, 30 Yr, 2nd home, Refinance.

Hypothetical Rates:
Option A) 2.65 % w/ $2k Points/Origination Fee
vs
Option B) 2.75% w/ $0k Points/Origination Fee
vs
Option C) 2.85% w/ -$2k Lending Credit

What tool will help me determine the best path forward assuming I hold the mortgage until maturity?
There has to be a present value or some tool to compare cost/benefit analysis of paying down rate but I don't know what it is.

Thanks
Use an amortization calculator to determine the total interest of the loan (I’m saying this based on your “hold until maturity statement”, or else I’d say 5-10 years), then add points/subtract credits from that. Then compare those totals.
If I take the total interest from a 30 yr loan and +/- origination fees, isn’t that mixing a future value (total interest) and present value (origination fee)?
If you do it consistently, why does it matter. You will still be able to compare between the three of them. Was that not the original question of the post or were you more looking forward a way of calculating net present value or something else?
Laddu99
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Laddu99 »

presto987 wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:07 pm
presto987 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:05 pm Hi folks, it has been 5 months since my last refi with LoanDepot, so I just started poking around to look at rates late last week. My strategy is to refi every 6 months and get the maximum lender credit possible. The reason for waiting 6 months is just so that each lender can get compensated for the loan.

My last two refis were with LoanDepot, who were willing to offer enough lender credit to cover the full amount of fees + prepaids + escrow. By maxing out my lender credit, I was able to net around $25k (after all fees) in total across the two refis.

In comparison, Better's cap of $5k on lender credit is much less interesting to me. However, with the $2k Amex offer, it's possible to net around $5500 after fees, which isn't bad. But my plan was to wait until January to refi again with LD.

Last week I saw Better advertising 1.875% no points on smartasset.com (thanks to the tip I saw here). I set up a Better application and asked them to match their rate, which they did. I had no intention of going with a 15-year loan, but this seemed to be the best option for improving my rate table. I then decided to lock a 2.125% 5-year ARM with $4980 lender credit.

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to lock until a loan officer fixed something in my file, which happened today. By that time though, the credits on the 5-year ARM deteriorated significantly (by thousands of dollars). But go figure - I was able to move to a 7-year ARM at 2.125% with only $50 less credit than what I was originally planning to lock, which was way better than what my 5-year ARM pricing was showing. It's like my rate table was messed up, but I wasn't complaining.

Question: Does Radian still work with Better and generally offer cheaper pricing on title? I emailed the clientrelations email address last week but haven't heard back. Is that still the best way to get a quote?
Wow. I applied to Better less than a week ago, and now they are working on my closing disclosure. Including the Amex offer, I will be making around $5200-5400 net of fees through this refi (reason for the range is that I'm getting mixed messages about the payoff fees charged by my current lender).

I could have made a lot more if I waited a month to re-apply with LoanDepot, as LoanDepot allows more lender credit. That said, I guess it's not bad to get this one out of the way and then go again with LD next time.
How do you approach LoanDepot for the lender credits to begin with? Do they provide a rate table and you got to choose like Better or just ask the lender to present the options with the goal to maximize the credit? Thx.
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AerialWombat
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by AerialWombat »

deleted
Last edited by AerialWombat on Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This post is a work of fiction. Any similarity to real financial advice is purely coincidental.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

AerialWombat wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:26 pm Today I closed on three simultaneous refinance loans for rental properties with AimLoan.com. Just thought I would share a quick review of the experience.

I started loan shopping the week before Thanksgiving. I was looking for a lender that would do all three loans at the same time, and retain servicing. This process was just as much about reducing the number of loan servicers I have to deal with as it was to reduce the interest rate on the loans and improve the cash flow on these rentals. The usual suspects - Better, LenderFI, LoanDepot, etc. - plus a few more were on my radar. After several days of reviewing loan estimates, I chose AimLoan. They were not the absolute cheapest option for any one particular house, but they were the cheapest option I found for doing all three loans together and retaining servicing.
Indeed it sounds like you had a very competent team, particularly in the loan processor. Kudos and great job!
4and20blackbirds
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by 4and20blackbirds »

Hello, Bogleheads! I am really grateful for all of the advice on this thread. I haven't had a chance to read every page, but what I've read has already saved me a lot of money. Quick recap of where I am currently: my 2015 home purchase loan (30-year, 3.99%, current balance $329,629) was transferred for the second time this year in November to Rocket Mortgage. (Cenlar to Flagstar to Rocket in 2021). I hadn't received anything from Rocket but had made the December payment and called last week to make sure they received it. They confirmed they had and passed me along to the "second part of our welcome team" which, no surprise, turned out to be the sales group, who wanted me to refinance with them.

Refinancing had been on my list of things to do for a long time, but I hadn't gotten around to it. In listening to their initial pitch I rejected the first offer because it didn't make sense--high fees and an interest rate of 3.75%, if I remember correctly. They then put "the manager" on the line and quoted a no cost loan at $331,000 at 3.5%. They of course wouldn't let me run the numbers, but wanted me to start the process. I did so, because it was some improvement over my current loan. However, after receiving an updated closing statement that pushed the loan to $340,000, I balked and started digging into the numbers a bit more which then led me to Bogleheads.org (I'm a long-time sporadic lurker), which is where I should have started immediately after agreeing to refinance. Based on the advice in this thread and some others, I decided to handle taxes and insurance myself (i.e., no more escrow) and went through Bankrate where I ended up contacting Better, Villa Home Loans, and Garden State yesterday. Better was the lowest offer followed by Villa, both of whom were beating Rocket so far it wasn't even close (Garden State was a ways off Better and Villa but still better than Rocket). I sent the initial offers to Rocket to see if they would match or beat. Early this morning they said they could not, and the representative I'd been dealing with said it would be sent to a different group to be withdrawn. This new group within Rocket (the "President's Club"; seriously, it's feeling like buying a car at this point) I'm not really crazy about because they have been putting the hard sell but admitting at the same time they can't beat Better's offer. In fact, they say Better can't even meet their own quote, i.e., that Better won't be able to close the loan. I'm wondering if y'all had any opinions on whether or not this is true or something I should be concerned about. At the moment, Better's underwriting has already conditionally approved the loan and we are moving through the process.

By the way, I figure we'll be in this house at least another three years and possibly more. Our youngest will graduate high school then and we might move or downsize to supercharge savings and retirement at that point.

In the meantime below are the quotes I have available that are most interesting to me.

Current loan: 30-year, 3.99%, current balance $329,627, current payment is $2907 per month, but includes escrow shortage of $231.49 which drops off in March 2022 and PMI of $96 which is due to drop off in July 2022. The current payment also includes escrows of roughly $450 each per month for taxes and insurance. P&I payment on the current loan is $1,780.99. Zillow puts value at $712,000, but I used $590,000 for the quotes. If I recall correctly, it appraised at $475,000 when we purchased it in August 2015.

Better of course has the rate sheet with the different possibilities, but these were the two I was most interested in:

30-year, 2.875%, loan of $329,627, A + B + C of $2,606, E + F + G of $2,421; Total D + I of $5,027 with lender credit of $4,728 for cash to close from me of $299. Total P&I payment of $1,365.00

30-year, 2.75%, loan of $330,800, A + B + C of $2,616, E + F + G of $2,415; Total D + I of $5,031 with lender credit of $2,842 for cash to close from me of $1,016 and $1,173 rolled into loan. Total P&I payment of $1,350.46.

Rocket came back today with:

30-year, 2.875%, loan of $329,600, A + B + C of $3,547.13, E + F + G of $1,870.52; Total D + I of $5,417.65 with zero lender credit for cash to close from me of $5,255.05 and $162.60 rolled into loan. Total P&I payment of $1,367.49.

I would be curious to know if you all think that these are realistic, which you would pick, whether Better really can close, and whether Rocket is being honest. My gut says Rocket is just bad-mouthing Better because of the recent issues they've had – in fact, the new Rocket representative said that I shouldn't go with Better because I shouldn't do business with a company that lays off its workforce right before Christmas. Thanks in advance and I really look forward to seeing your comments. This is all moving really fast and here we are at the holidays, too. Thank you everybody! P.S. to the Mods: I wasn't sure if this should be part of the mega thread or it's own post. Please move if I made an error and thank you!

Forgot to add: I've also been trying to shop title, but that's been a little more difficult in Florida because the rates are set by the legislature. Radian doesn't do refis in Florida, and I haven't heard back from Title Forward other than their instant quote, which is great but so far off the state statutory rate that I wonder if it's at all realistic. I am checking with my original title company to see if they might be able to do a re-issue policy at a cheaper rate.

Also forgot to add that both Better and Rocket have the Amex $2,000 credit deal on top of the above, which I'll be taking advantage of--only Better has written it into section H of the Loan Estimate.
leviathan
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by leviathan »

4and20blackbirds wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:18 pm ....
I would be curious to know if you all think that these are realistic, which you would pick, whether Better really can close, and whether Rocket is being honest.
....
Go with Better. They don't play games. 2.875% offer seems good.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

leviathan wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:52 pm
4and20blackbirds wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:18 pm ....
I would be curious to know if you all think that these are realistic, which you would pick, whether Better really can close, and whether Rocket is being honest.
....
Go with Better. They don't play games. 2.875% offer seems good.
I concur on both counts, Better and 2.875% with those juicy lender credits.

Rocket indeed does give a very “car salesman” feel, as does Loan Depot. At least the latter is competitive at times vs. the former is rarely competitive (they have matched offers before, but it’s in the minority vs. the runaround and spiel you got).
4and20blackbirds
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by 4and20blackbirds »

leviathan wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:52 pm
4and20blackbirds wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:18 pm ....
I would be curious to know if you all think that these are realistic, which you would pick, whether Better really can close, and whether Rocket is being honest.
....
Go with Better. They don't play games. 2.875% offer seems good.
BrandonBogle wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:57 pm
leviathan wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:52 pm
4and20blackbirds wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:18 pm ....
I would be curious to know if you all think that these are realistic, which you would pick, whether Better really can close, and whether Rocket is being honest.
....
Go with Better. They don't play games. 2.875% offer seems good.
I concur on both counts, Better and 2.875% with those juicy lender credits.

Rocket indeed does give a very “car salesman” feel, as does Loan Depot. At least the latter is competitive at times vs. the former is rarely competitive (they have matched offers before, but it’s in the minority vs. the runaround and spiel you got).
Thanks very much for the quick advice--much appreciated! I've written Better to switch to the 2.875% option. If I'm not back with a few questions during the process, I'll definitely be back to post the final result.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

4and20blackbirds wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:40 am Thanks very much for the quick advice--much appreciated! I've written Better to switch to the 2.875% option. If I'm not back with a few questions during the process, I'll definitely be back to post the final result.
Just be sure to keep up with them. Sometimes you find a great person, but often you end up with someone with poor communication or time management skills. I’ve found it best to reach out every 72 hours (excluding weekends) and asking how things are coming along. I only do this when things don’t actively seem to be moving on my portal.

In essence, consider yourself a project manager and they are the project team you are keeping on task.
4and20blackbirds
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by 4and20blackbirds »

BrandonBogle wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 1:10 pm
Just be sure to keep up with them. Sometimes you find a great person, but often you end up with someone with poor communication or time management skills. I’ve found it best to reach out every 72 hours (excluding weekends) and asking how things are coming along. I only do this when things don’t actively seem to be moving on my portal.

In essence, consider yourself a project manager and they are the project team you are keeping on task.
Great advice, thank you @BrandonBogle! I emailed them last night about switching to the 2.875, but haven’t yet heard back. I have been keeping on top of the tasks as they come in and I know they’re working things because a few more general status emails have come in today for title being clear, etc. I’ll probably email them again in about 30 mins so they have one more message from me about the 2.875 before they close for Christmas.
parent_refi
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by parent_refi »

Hi all,

Bit of a weird one. My mom owns 51% of a two-story home that she lives in. She has an outstanding mortgage of $580k; that's the only mortgage on the property. LTV is around 65% and her current mortgage rate is 3.75%. I am looking to assist her with refinancing. I do not live near her so I would be helping her remotely. Any tips for this specific situation? I'm slowly reading through this thread now but any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
atwnsw
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by atwnsw »

Seeking advice:

Builder is remodeling our vacation house and I am confident that I will have CO within 60 days but not very confident that it will be issued within 30.
(This project has been going on for 14 months).

Would you try to lock in rate today for 60 days even though it might be ready in 45? The downside is that I am paying more for this option.
vs
Wait until we are closer to completion and lock 30 days out? The downside is that rates might go up in the next 30 days.

I want to lock in as soon as possible but my hands are tied with builder running into delays.

Thanks in advance for your input
ensign_lee
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by ensign_lee »

parent_refi wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:02 pm Hi all,

Bit of a weird one. My mom owns 51% of a two-story home that she lives in. She has an outstanding mortgage of $580k; that's the only mortgage on the property. LTV is around 65% and her current mortgage rate is 3.75%. I am looking to assist her with refinancing. I do not live near her so I would be helping her remotely. Any tips for this specific situation? I'm slowly reading through this thread now but any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
Easiest solution? Make sure she has an Amex, have her apply on better.com - have them match *themselves* on bankrate. Then pick the rate option that covers all of you mom's third party closing costs (Sections A-D). Then, have them apply the amex promotion.

And voila, you're done!
parent_refi
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by parent_refi »

ensign_lee wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:56 am
parent_refi wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:02 pm Hi all,

Bit of a weird one. My mom owns 51% of a two-story home that she lives in. She has an outstanding mortgage of $580k; that's the only mortgage on the property. LTV is around 65% and her current mortgage rate is 3.75%. I am looking to assist her with refinancing. I do not live near her so I would be helping her remotely. Any tips for this specific situation? I'm slowly reading through this thread now but any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
Easiest solution? Make sure she has an Amex, have her apply on better.com - have them match *themselves* on bankrate. Then pick the rate option that covers all of you mom's third party closing costs (Sections A-D). Then, have them apply the amex promotion.

And voila, you're done!
Ugh, turns out Better is not operating in her state. I will search around on Bank Rate. Thank you for your help.
atwnsw
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by atwnsw »

I have spent hours trying to figure this comparison tool out and can't comprehend it even after creating an excel spreadsheet and loading in the variables. I am sorry but this concept will not sink in no matter how much I have re-read it. [Solicitation removed by Moderator Misenplace.]

Here is my scenario:
Home Value: $1,200,000
$647,200 Total Loan Amount
Cashout Refinance
30 yr Fixed Rate
Credit Score: 720+
Zip Code: 28741
Second Home
Property Use: Residential

My research is showing that my best case scenario was having Better.com pricematch the following websites:
Bankrate.com Home Infinity: 0 points/0 closing costs, 2.875% Rate
Zillow.com Northpoints: 0 points/0 closing costs 2.875% $1626 Credit

What can you find? [Solicitation removed by Moderator Misenplace.]

One thing to note is that I will be paying for 60 days worth of rate lock as I don't know if the builder will be able to close within 45 and I want to build in extra insurance given the delays we have encountered in the past year. I realize that will drive up my costs a little bit and I am okay with it. No problem paying points/closing costs if it makes sense with your analysis.

Planning on Amex $2K Better Promo.
Hope to get $500 Referral Code from somebody on the board.

Thanks in advance

-------------------------------------------------
bestisfree wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:06 am

Code: Select all

      A       B       C                 D             E            F           G                  H                    I
    -----  -----  ------   -------------------   --------      ---------  ----------  ---------------------    ----------------------
                                                  cost for     spread                 Better AFTER matching    Better AFTER matching
                           cost for points        points                              BR @ 15yr, 2.000%        BR @ 30 yr, 2.250%
     ID    Term    Rate    Better before match    Bankrate     E - F     max (E-F)?     (ie.  D - $767 )        (ie.   D - $3115 )
    -----  -----  ------   -------------------   ---------    ---------  ----------   -------------------      -----------------------
       1      15  1.750%            $3,554        $1,641       $1,913         No              $2,787                 $439
       2      15  1.875%            $2,137        $2,857        -$720         No              $1,370                -$978
       3      15  2.000%              $767            $0         $767         No                  $0              -$2,348
       4      15  2.125%             -$633           N/A          N/A        N/A             -$1,400              -$3,748
       5      20  2.250%            $3,637          $131       $3,506         No              $2,870                 $522
       6      20  2.375%            $1,949            $0       $1,949         No              $1,182              -$1,166
       7      30  2.250%            $6,575        $3,460       $3,115        Yes              $5,808               $3,460
       8      30  2.375%            $4,688        $1,580       $3,108         No              $3,921               $1,573
       9      30  2.625%            $1,583            $0       $1,583         No                $816              -$1,532
Process for matching Better rate table to advertised rates on Bankrate (or any advertised rate) for maximizing lender credit / minimizing costs for points (YMMV)
  1. Let's say you are looking to refinance at a term of 15-year, fixed rate.
  2. You make an initial application at Better.com. The costs for points for various terms-rate combinations are recorded in Column D
  3. You then look on Bankrate (or any other sites) for advertised rates using the same parameters (residence type, loan amount, zip code, etc). You record these rates in Column E. Better typically only advertises 3 rates per term category on Bankrate, which top out at 0 point, so you won't find every term-rate combination matched. This is reflected by the "N/A" in the table for illustration.
  4. You compute the spread (column F) in all the matched pairs.
  5. You find the term-rate combination that has the maximum spread - this happens to be ID=6, 30 years, 2.250%.
  6. The estimated new cost/credit is shown in Column I.
  7. You take a screen cap of the Bankrate page that shows the costs for 30 years, 2.250%.
  8. You ask nicely the loan consultant/loan officer at Better to match the Bankrate advertised rate. "I saw this 30 years 2.250% advertised by Better on Bankrate.com with $xxxxx in points. Would you be able to match this rate?" and attach the screen cap
  9. After a couple of hours, you should see your rate table on your Better portal updated.
  10. Lock one that's most appropriate for you OR rinse and repeat the next day (the loan officer may be annoyed so do so at your risk)
Comments:
  • If you hadn't done the match, the original rates on Better's portal (ie column D) may not be competitive at all, or you may be tempted to do 15-year, 2.150% and get $633 in credit. As you see in column I, you could possibly do better.
  • If you had only matched Better to the best rate on your target term (ie 15-year) on Bankrate, you would not be maximizing the potential credit you could get. (illustrated in column H)
  • After matching, hopefully the credit should at least cover A+B+C+E on the loan estimate
  • Savings usually come from 2 sources: the total reduced interest OVER the term of the new loan, and the lender's credit up front. Say you wanted 15 year, 2.000%, but going up to 2.150% would get your more lender's credit. You may want to choose the 2.150% to get the credit now instead of realizing the interest savings over a long period of time.
  • If net cash back is more than $2k, you may want to have escrow to reduce that to avoid the loan being categorized as cash-out. (I think - someone check this)
  • Since you can sort of calculate the expected cost/credit, I'd rather not bother the loan office for matching until you are ready to ask for matching
  • Someone said that the points cost on the rate table may not be uniformly reduced -- so do double check and YMMV.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

atwnsw wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:38 pm My research is showing that my best case scenario was having Better.com pricematch the following websites:
Bankrate.com Home Infinity: 0 points/0 closing costs, 2.875% Rate
Zillow.com Northpoints: 0 points/0 closing costs 2.875% $1626 Credit
Better does not match other lenders listed on Bankrate. They will match themselves on Bankrate prior to locking. If you want to match other lenders, you need to apply and get a Loan Estimate from them to send over to Better. They may or may not match it, particularly if your loan is classified as a jumbo. I don't recall if any NC counties get the raised limit (superconforming), but perhaps The Highlands does.

You said you are not understanding something, but I'm not following from your post what you are confused about. Could you call that out please?
RMO87
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by RMO87 »

midebo wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:00 pm Hi folks,

Devoted lurker here, immensely thankful for all the tips on getting the best deal via Better and wanted to share my experience now that we have closed:

This was our 2nd refi in 18 months -- our first one, in the early weeks of the pandemic, took us from a 4.05% 30yr to a 3.25% 30yr. This time -- with lower rates, an increase in our household cash flow, and a desire to build equity faster -- we were able to move to a 20yr.

We ended up at 2.25% with $1,018 lender credit on a ~$540,000 loan on our single family primary residence in DC. Roughly 60% LTV, credit in 760s, appraisal waived. A+B+C+E=$1,905. We ended up writing a small check at close to keep our P&I at a nice even $2,800.

The whole process went smoothly from lock on 9/17 to close on 10/7. Loan was funded, as expected, on 10/13. I will update when AmEx credit is posted.

A couple notes:

Don't apply through the AmEx portal. Because I did, the LO knew from the get-go I was aware of and interested in the AmEx offer and she declined to match quotes from other lenders with higher credits (LenderFi, Loan Cabin, Loan Depot) because she noted I would still be coming out ahead with the AmEx offer. Best to apply directly from Better.com then start negotiating, asking for the AmEx offer only after you have locked.

Make sure you are locking the most advantageous Bankrate offer even if you have no intention of choosing that particular product. Yes, this will be repetitive to longtime followers of this thread but I did not wrap my mind around it until after I had locked: You are locking an entire rate table not just a single rate for a single product. Make a simple spreadsheet with the rate and associated points/credits for each product offered on Better's website (15yr/20yr/30yr) vs. the lowest zero-point offers for each corresponding product on Bankrate. Find the product with the biggest point/credit delta, and ask your LO to match that one. You will end up ahead on all the other products.

If you screw something up, just ask. When I realized I left about $1,000 on the table by asking my LO to match the wrong rate, I sent her a polite email saying I felt nagged that I had not gotten the best possible rate and pointed out -- again, politely -- that left a bad taste in my mouth in light on Better's stated emphasis on transparency. I asked if she could meet halfway with $500 in credits, and lo and behold she gave me basically 100% of the credits I would have gotten had I locked the most advantageous Bankrate offer. I was pleasantly surprised because rates had ticked up in the interim and they would have been wholly justified in telling me to pound sand.

Hope this is helpful -- especially to those who might not have the time or patience to sift through 3-to-4 months of posts on this extremely helpful thread.
This is great! I have been researching on Better and Bankrate today, and have a few questions/clarifications to ask.

On Better, for 30-YEARS, the difference between the best rate and rate #2 is $600 (rounding). The difference between rate #2 and rate #3 is $400.

For 20-YEARS, the difference between the best rate and rate #2 is $600, and also $600 between rate #2 and rate #3.

On Bankrate, for 30-YEARS: 3.25% 0 points; 3.00% 0.881 points, and $1,181 upfront; 2.875% 1.389 points, and $1,861 upfront. For 20-YEARS: 3.25% 0 points; 2.875% 0.775 points and $1,039 upfront. 2.75% 1.393 points, and $1,867 upfront.

Could you please provide your recommended way to decipher which is the best method to decide which Bankrate rate to use in getting the best rate table from Better?

Thanks in advance! Please let me know whether you need further info to help me out.
Ryan
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

RMO87 wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 1:05 pm This is great! I have been researching on Better and Bankrate today, and have a few questions/clarifications to ask.

On Better, for 30-YEARS, the difference between the best rate and rate #2 is $600 (rounding). The difference between rate #2 and rate #3 is $400.

For 20-YEARS, the difference between the best rate and rate #2 is $600, and also $600 between rate #2 and rate #3.

On Bankrate, for 30-YEARS: 3.25% 0 points; 3.00% 0.881 points, and $1,181 upfront; 2.875% 1.389 points, and $1,861 upfront. For 20-YEARS: 3.25% 0 points; 2.875% 0.775 points and $1,039 upfront. 2.75% 1.393 points, and $1,867 upfront.

Could you please provide your recommended way to decipher which is the best method to decide which Bankrate rate to use in getting the best rate table from Better?

Thanks in advance! Please let me know whether you need further info to help me out.
Ryan
The post earlier on this page includes the following quote from bestisfree. This is the methodology I use, if I bother. I have sometimes just looked a rate I was interested in and not bothered to optimize it.
bestisfree wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:06 am

Code: Select all

      A       B       C                 D             E            F           G                  H                    I
    -----  -----  ------   -------------------   --------      ---------  ----------  ---------------------    ----------------------
                                                  cost for     spread                 Better AFTER matching    Better AFTER matching
                           cost for points        points                              BR @ 15yr, 2.000%        BR @ 30 yr, 2.250%
     ID    Term    Rate    Better before match    Bankrate     E - F     max (E-F)?     (ie.  D - $767 )        (ie.   D - $3115 )
    -----  -----  ------   -------------------   ---------    ---------  ----------   -------------------      -----------------------
       1      15  1.750%            $3,554        $1,641       $1,913         No              $2,787                 $439
       2      15  1.875%            $2,137        $2,857        -$720         No              $1,370                -$978
       3      15  2.000%              $767            $0         $767         No                  $0              -$2,348
       4      15  2.125%             -$633           N/A          N/A        N/A             -$1,400              -$3,748
       5      20  2.250%            $3,637          $131       $3,506         No              $2,870                 $522
       6      20  2.375%            $1,949            $0       $1,949         No              $1,182              -$1,166
       7      30  2.250%            $6,575        $3,460       $3,115        Yes              $5,808               $3,460
       8      30  2.375%            $4,688        $1,580       $3,108         No              $3,921               $1,573
       9      30  2.625%            $1,583            $0       $1,583         No                $816              -$1,532
Process for matching Better rate table to advertised rates on Bankrate (or any advertised rate) for maximizing lender credit / minimizing costs for points (YMMV)
  1. Let's say you are looking to refinance at a term of 15-year, fixed rate.
  2. You make an initial application at Better.com. The costs for points for various terms-rate combinations are recorded in Column D
  3. You then look on Bankrate (or any other sites) for advertised rates using the same parameters (residence type, loan amount, zip code, etc). You record these rates in Column E. Better typically only advertises 3 rates per term category on Bankrate, which top out at 0 point, so you won't find every term-rate combination matched. This is reflected by the "N/A" in the table for illustration.
  4. You compute the spread (column F) in all the matched pairs.
  5. You find the term-rate combination that has the maximum spread - this happens to be ID=6, 30 years, 2.250%.
  6. The estimated new cost/credit is shown in Column I.
  7. You take a screen cap of the Bankrate page that shows the costs for 30 years, 2.250%.
  8. You ask nicely the loan consultant/loan officer at Better to match the Bankrate advertised rate. "I saw this 30 years 2.250% advertised by Better on Bankrate.com with $xxxxx in points. Would you be able to match this rate?" and attach the screen cap
  9. After a couple of hours, you should see your rate table on your Better portal updated.
  10. Lock one that's most appropriate for you OR rinse and repeat the next day (the loan officer may be annoyed so do so at your risk)
JSDNJ
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by JSDNJ »

Can anyone recommend a company that’s doing cash out right now?

I own a home worth about $600k, with $130k left on the mortgage. I need to tap the equity for $250k to pay off a relative on another property that doesn’t have a mortgage on it.
DMB41
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by DMB41 »

Hey all,

In response to many BH users having confusion on how exactly to compare rate costs for Better I created a Google sheet (similar to the methodology that @bestisfree showed) that allows the user to enter in the information from their Better rate table and from the various mortgage compare websites (currently BankRate, Zillow, and SmartAsset) and have the sheet automatically calculate and highlight the best offer.

Please feel free to provide feedback and criticism (preferably via private message to avoid clogging up this thread). I am by no means an expert with this process, but have thoroughly enjoyed the "game" of getting the best cost and wanted to give back to this community which has helped me greatly. :happy

LINK: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
Jman09
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Jman09 »

We're considering refinancing our 3.0% 30yr jumbo FRM that we have 27 years left on with a balance of $1.5M. We've been offered 2.75% with costs (A+B+C+E) of $7,000. We're trying to negotiate a lender credit, but even the current offer seems favorable as we plan to keep the home for a long time and the 0.25% drop makes a meaningful difference given the balance (I calculate ~3 yrs to break even). I think we could have gotten something a bit better a couple months ago but we maybe waited too long. Any thoughts/advice?
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

Jman09 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:37 am We're considering refinancing our 3.0% 30yr jumbo FRM that we have 27 years left on with a balance of $1.5M. We've been offered 2.75% with costs (A+B+C+E) of $7,000. We're trying to negotiate a lender credit, but even the current offer seems favorable as we plan to keep the home for a long time and the 0.25% drop makes a meaningful difference given the balance (I calculate ~3 yrs to break even). I think we could have gotten something a bit better a couple months ago but we maybe waited too long. Any thoughts/advice?
Get the offer in writing. Given the circumstances it isn't a bad offer, but do keep looking around and see if anyone will beat it. Does LenderFi offer anything on their website for your details? They don't always offer jumbos.
tj
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by tj »

Holy smokes, lots of massive rate jumps the past few days.

https://www.mortgagenewsdaily.com/mortgage-rates/mnd
nic3456
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by nic3456 »

I'm in the middle of a Better refi, but also in the market for leasing a new car. How soon after closing could I sign? When I did a refi with Lender Fi last year they checked my credit again after closing - does Better do that?
tj
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by tj »

Another massive jump, +14bps on the 30 year, +10bps on the 15 year. I probably won't even bother refinancing my sub-par purchase rate. :oops:
Scotttheking
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Scotttheking »

Got my $2k amex credit from better. Was an easy process and I made money on it all.
drk
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by drk »

tj wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:39 pm Another massive jump, +14bps on the 30 year, +10bps on the 15 year. I probably won't even bother refinancing my sub-par purchase rate. :oops:
Yeah, I'm giving up my dreams of a cash-out refi this year unless jumbo pricing somehow bucks the conforming trend.
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