Losing a job in your 50's...
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
I'm 62, and I am definitely one of those IT people whose value is tied to a particular company, using older technology. I've made it through one takeover because of my knowledge of legacy systems, but there's another coming next year, so who knows what will happen. I'm pretty good with Java, but there is so much new stuff out there that it would not be possible for me to get another job, I don't think - not at my age. (I haven't even been on an interview in 30 years.)
Luckily, I'm now in a position where I can retire if I really had to. Ideally I'd like to keep going at my current salary for another couple of years, but it wouldn't be a disaster if my job vanished tomorrow. So, I am now actively thinking about the next phase of life. I don't even care what it pays -- that's no longer a primary consideration (although health insurance would be nice.) I think I'd like to bring in a little cash part-time.
Also, working remotely for the past 18 months has convinced me that I have absolutely no desire to go back to commuting. My commute for 40 years was anywhere from over an hour to 1:40 (that's one way.) I'm done with that.
Luckily, I'm now in a position where I can retire if I really had to. Ideally I'd like to keep going at my current salary for another couple of years, but it wouldn't be a disaster if my job vanished tomorrow. So, I am now actively thinking about the next phase of life. I don't even care what it pays -- that's no longer a primary consideration (although health insurance would be nice.) I think I'd like to bring in a little cash part-time.
Also, working remotely for the past 18 months has convinced me that I have absolutely no desire to go back to commuting. My commute for 40 years was anywhere from over an hour to 1:40 (that's one way.) I'm done with that.
- AnnetteLouisan
- Posts: 7261
- Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:16 pm
- Location: New York, NY
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
Elizabeth White had a Ted Talk on this. Her book is „55, Underemployed and Faking Normal.“ Neil Gabler has interesting interviews on PBS and The Atlantic on midlife financial insecurity among the white collar.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
I just assumed I would lose my job or be severely marginalized in my 50's.
Even decades back I saw it happen over and over.
And then both my father and FIL died in their mid-late 60's after getting a combined 3 years of retirement between them.
So in my late 20's I made a firm decision to be retirement ready by my mid-50's.
From about 50 to 54 had several near career-death experiences, so my hunch from decades ago wasn't a bad one.
But I survived. Ended up in a sweet place by 56 career-wise, but announced on my terms my exit and even got to pick my successors.
I know this doesn't help folks that didn't have that plan and find themselves jobless in their 50's.
But for younger people it's an alternative. And you don't have to exercise that option if things don't go south. But you can if you want.
Even decades back I saw it happen over and over.
And then both my father and FIL died in their mid-late 60's after getting a combined 3 years of retirement between them.
So in my late 20's I made a firm decision to be retirement ready by my mid-50's.
From about 50 to 54 had several near career-death experiences, so my hunch from decades ago wasn't a bad one.
But I survived. Ended up in a sweet place by 56 career-wise, but announced on my terms my exit and even got to pick my successors.
I know this doesn't help folks that didn't have that plan and find themselves jobless in their 50's.
But for younger people it's an alternative. And you don't have to exercise that option if things don't go south. But you can if you want.
70/30 AA for life, Global market cap equity. Rebalance if fixed income <25% or >35%. Weighted ER< .10%. 5% of annual portfolio balance SWR, Proportional (to AA) withdrawals.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
It is hard finding another job.
Just for grins, in late August 2021, I applied for the same job at the same place that I left in 2013.
Dead silence.
I don't know if they didn't like the fact that I have been working part-time 1099 jobs since then or what.
Or that I am in my late 50s now.
I have not heard a peep for anyone for any of the jobs I applied for.
.
Just for grins, in late August 2021, I applied for the same job at the same place that I left in 2013.
Dead silence.
I don't know if they didn't like the fact that I have been working part-time 1099 jobs since then or what.
Or that I am in my late 50s now.
I have not heard a peep for anyone for any of the jobs I applied for.
.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
Thought the job market was supposed to be fantastic right now? Guess that mainly applies to low end jobs.Nyc10036 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:18 pm It is hard finding another job.
Just for grins, in late August 2021, I applied for the same job at the same place that I left in 2013.
Dead silence.
I don't know if they didn't like the fact that I have been working part-time 1099 jobs since then or what.
Or that I am in my late 50s now.
I have not heard a peep for anyone for any of the jobs I applied for.
.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
Amazing what people do to make a buck (including myself). I shudder to think of all the time I've spent commuting back and forth to work (along with gas and other transportation costs). Seems like after a certain point, the older one gets, the more it is a crapshoot as to whether one can obtain full time employment in one's primary field (especially a technical field like IT).Tom_T wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:20 pm I'm 62, and I am definitely one of those IT people whose value is tied to a particular company, using older technology. I've made it through one takeover because of my knowledge of legacy systems, but there's another coming next year, so who knows what will happen. I'm pretty good with Java, but there is so much new stuff out there that it would not be possible for me to get another job, I don't think - not at my age. (I haven't even been on an interview in 30 years.)
Luckily, I'm now in a position where I can retire if I really had to. Ideally I'd like to keep going at my current salary for another couple of years, but it wouldn't be a disaster if my job vanished tomorrow. So, I am now actively thinking about the next phase of life. I don't even care what it pays -- that's no longer a primary consideration (although health insurance would be nice.) I think I'd like to bring in a little cash part-time.
Also, working remotely for the past 18 months has convinced me that I have absolutely no desire to go back to commuting. My commute for 40 years was anywhere from over an hour to 1:40 (that's one way.) I'm done with that.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
Maybe the job market is great at FAANG, but not from my experience.CobraKai wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:19 pmThought the job market was supposed to be fantastic right now? Guess that mainly applies to low end jobs.Nyc10036 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:18 pm It is hard finding another job.
Just for grins, in late August 2021, I applied for the same job at the same place that I left in 2013.
Dead silence.
I don't know if they didn't like the fact that I have been working part-time 1099 jobs since then or what.
Or that I am in my late 50s now.
I have not heard a peep for anyone for any of the jobs I applied for.
.
Companies have the desired salary box, and I put the number I wanted which is only $2K less than what I was making in 2003.
It helps if you are willing to relocate and can obtain a security clearance or currently hold one.
This way you are not crowded out of a job by someone on a H1-B visa.
.
Last edited by Nyc10036 on Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
+++ 1000MnD wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:27 pm I just assumed I would lose my job or be severely marginalized in my 50's.
Even decades back I saw it happen over and over.
And then both my father and FIL died in their mid-late 60's after getting a combined 3 years of retirement between them.
So in my late 20's I made a firm decision to be retirement ready by my mid-50's.
From about 50 to 54 had several near career-death experiences, so my hunch from decades ago wasn't a bad one.
But I survived. Ended up in a sweet place by 56 career-wise, but announced on my terms my exit and even got to pick my successors.
I know this doesn't help folks that didn't have that plan and find themselves jobless in their 50's.
But for younger people it's an alternative. And you don't have to exercise that option if things don't go south. But you can if you want.
My Dad, a sole breadwinner, was forced into early retirement in his late 50’s back in the 1980’s. So, in reaction to that, I committed myself over my life to be FI by age 50, give or take. What I took away from Dad was “never depend on your employer” and job security is tenuous post age 50. This is all anecdotal, of course. YMMV
For the youngsters out there though: AI, machine learning and the like are deeply embedded in society already, including the labor market. It is hard for us mere mortals to contemplate what society will look like in 2030, let alone 2040
In the absence of governmental solutions, the best one can do is save early and save often
I also recommend Taleb’s “Antifragile: Things That Gain From Disorder.” One wants to be the London cabbie instead of the Lehman Brothers banker
- AnnetteLouisan
- Posts: 7261
- Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:16 pm
- Location: New York, NY
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
Exactly how I feel. I had to scroll up to see whether I had written it. Doing something that you don’t have to do is certainly much more pleasant.getthatmarshmallow wrote: ↑Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:18 amSame here. If I can work till 65, I probably will. But I don't want us to be in a situation where we have to beyond 55.willthrill81 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:56 am Yes, that was a good podcast episode. I enjoy Pete's take on things. He's much more balanced than many others, especially Dave Ramsay.
Kudos to you CyclingDuo for stepping up and getting back in the game. You've demonstrated that losing a job in your 50s is not necessarily the end of the world.
That being said, this issue, amongst others, is one of the reasons that I'm really trying to reach financial independence by age 55.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
You sure about that with Uber and Lyft?WyomingFIRE wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:30 pm I also recommend Taleb’s “Antifragile: Things That Gain From Disorder.” One wants to be the London cabbie instead of the Lehman Brothers banker
Disruption can happen anywhere.
"The best tools available to us are shovels, not scalpels. Don't get carried away." - vanBogle59
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
You may not have read the bookHomerJ wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:42 pmYou sure about that with Uber and Lyft?WyomingFIRE wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:30 pm I also recommend Taleb’s “Antifragile: Things That Gain From Disorder.” One wants to be the London cabbie instead of the Lehman Brothers banker
Disruption can happen anywhere.
You and Taleb are in agreement; again, the book is worth a read
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
I think it would be unusual for a business to hire you back for a job you did before after eight years, almost regardless of the circumstances you left under. There might be some exceptions - maybe someone who left due to a spouse relocating for example. I don't think the silence was unique to you; they probably only communicate with candidates they want to pursue.Nyc10036 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:18 pm It is hard finding another job.
Just for grins, in late August 2021, I applied for the same job at the same place that I left in 2013.
Dead silence.
I don't know if they didn't like the fact that I have been working part-time 1099 jobs since then or what.
Or that I am in my late 50s now.
I have not heard a peep for anyone for any of the jobs I applied for.
.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
Having one is completely different from "can obtain one", since you don't really know until you try. Presumably the odds of having done something stupid that would preclude being able to obtain a clearance increase with age.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
I had one.
A security clearance will lapse if there is no need to have the clearance e.g. job responsiblities change.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
The job was advertised online and was on the company's website.tibbitts wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:01 pmI think it would be unusual for a business to hire you back for a job you did before after eight years, almost regardless of the circumstances you left under. There might be some exceptions - maybe someone who left due to a spouse relocating for example. I don't think the silence was unique to you; they probably only communicate with candidates they want to pursue.Nyc10036 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:18 pm It is hard finding another job.
Just for grins, in late August 2021, I applied for the same job at the same place that I left in 2013.
Dead silence.
I don't know if they didn't like the fact that I have been working part-time 1099 jobs since then or what.
Or that I am in my late 50s now.
I have not heard a peep for anyone for any of the jobs I applied for.
.
.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
What some some specific examples of, "This came up in the past five years and the old guy can't do it or quickly learn it." Is it a new language, hardware device, social media practice, novel knowledge domain, or what? Again, really specific examples would be most helpful.jmw wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:47 pm I know a guy who was quite good in 2016 and could get a job anywhere. He went to work for government and spends a lot of time on legacy against his will. In 2021, he admits he's unemployable in the regular IT job market. So he went from IT master to deadwood in just five years. It doesn't take long to go from top tier to bottom tier. Five short years is enough.
...
I would also admit keeping up is a time sink and frankly I'm tired of it when I used to be excited about new tech 10 years ago.
Thank you!
Last edited by Carousel on Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 4880
- Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:39 pm
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
The one person I know who has transioned well technically over the past 15 years had a path like this:Carousel wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:24 pmOld woman here, help me understand. What some some specific examples of, "This came up in the past five years and the old guy can't do it or quickly learn it." Is it a new language, hardware device, social media practice, novel knowledge domain, or what? Again, really specific examples would be most helpful.jmw wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:47 pm I know a guy who was quite good in 2016 and could get a job anywhere. He went to work for government and spends a lot of time on legacy against his will. In 2021, he admits he's unemployable in the regular IT job market. So he went from IT master to deadwood in just five years. It doesn't take long to go from top tier to bottom tier. Five short years is enough.
...
I would also admit keeping up is a time sink and frankly I'm tired of it when I used to be excited about new tech 10 years ago.
Thank you!
DBA, SAP specialist, Hadoop big data architect, Cloud Architect. Note, not really hands on programming last couple of jobs. Without making these changes he would be legacy and not have opportunities or salary he has today.
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ |
“How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
I'm not sure why where or if the job was advertised would relate to my comments.Nyc10036 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:48 pmThe job was advertised online and was on the company's website.tibbitts wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:01 pmI think it would be unusual for a business to hire you back for a job you did before after eight years, almost regardless of the circumstances you left under. There might be some exceptions - maybe someone who left due to a spouse relocating for example. I don't think the silence was unique to you; they probably only communicate with candidates they want to pursue.Nyc10036 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:18 pm It is hard finding another job.
Just for grins, in late August 2021, I applied for the same job at the same place that I left in 2013.
Dead silence.
I don't know if they didn't like the fact that I have been working part-time 1099 jobs since then or what.
Or that I am in my late 50s now.
I have not heard a peep for anyone for any of the jobs I applied for.
.
.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
I got the impression you thought I applied on a whim.tibbitts wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:57 pmI'm not sure why where or if the job was advertised would relate to my comments.Nyc10036 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:48 pmThe job was advertised online and was on the company's website.tibbitts wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:01 pmI think it would be unusual for a business to hire you back for a job you did before after eight years, almost regardless of the circumstances you left under. There might be some exceptions - maybe someone who left due to a spouse relocating for example. I don't think the silence was unique to you; they probably only communicate with candidates they want to pursue.Nyc10036 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:18 pm It is hard finding another job.
Just for grins, in late August 2021, I applied for the same job at the same place that I left in 2013.
Dead silence.
I don't know if they didn't like the fact that I have been working part-time 1099 jobs since then or what.
Or that I am in my late 50s now.
I have not heard a peep for anyone for any of the jobs I applied for.
.
.
I didn't say the silence was unique.
As this thread is partly about finding a job in one's 50's, this has been my experience.
Sadly, it has been mostly SILENCE.
.
- AnnetteLouisan
- Posts: 7261
- Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:16 pm
- Location: New York, NY
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
You may find interesting Elizabeth White‘s book, Twitter and Ted talk - „55, unemployed and faking normal.“ Or Neil Gabler‘s interviews on PBS and The Atlantic regarding financial insecurity among white collar folks.Nyc10036 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:01 pmI got the impression you thought I applied on a whim.tibbitts wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:57 pmI'm not sure why where or if the job was advertised would relate to my comments.Nyc10036 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:48 pmThe job was advertised online and was on the company's website.tibbitts wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:01 pmI think it would be unusual for a business to hire you back for a job you did before after eight years, almost regardless of the circumstances you left under. There might be some exceptions - maybe someone who left due to a spouse relocating for example. I don't think the silence was unique to you; they probably only communicate with candidates they want to pursue.Nyc10036 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:18 pm It is hard finding another job.
Just for grins, in late August 2021, I applied for the same job at the same place that I left in 2013.
Dead silence.
I don't know if they didn't like the fact that I have been working part-time 1099 jobs since then or what.
Or that I am in my late 50s now.
I have not heard a peep for anyone for any of the jobs I applied for.
.
.
I didn't say the silence was unique.
As this thread is partly about finding a job in one's 50's, this has been my experience.
Sadly, it has been mostly SILENCE.
.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
Thank you.AnnetteLouisan wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:11 pmYou may find interesting Elizabeth White‘s book, Twitter and Ted talk - „55, unemployed and faking normal.“ Or Neil Gabler‘s interviews on PBS and The Atlantic regarding financial insecurity among white collar folks.Nyc10036 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:01 pmI got the impression you thought I applied on a whim.tibbitts wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:57 pmI'm not sure why where or if the job was advertised would relate to my comments.Nyc10036 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:48 pmThe job was advertised online and was on the company's website.tibbitts wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:01 pm
I think it would be unusual for a business to hire you back for a job you did before after eight years, almost regardless of the circumstances you left under. There might be some exceptions - maybe someone who left due to a spouse relocating for example. I don't think the silence was unique to you; they probably only communicate with candidates they want to pursue.
.
I didn't say the silence was unique.
As this thread is partly about finding a job in one's 50's, this has been my experience.
Sadly, it has been mostly SILENCE.
.
I am very fortunate that I have been Boglehead-ish since graduating college without knowing it.
LBYM has saved my bacon so to speak.
It has been an eye-opening experience.
.
- AnnetteLouisan
- Posts: 7261
- Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:16 pm
- Location: New York, NY
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
Yes, LBYM! Had to look it up, but glad to hear all is well. My understanding is they all use screening software these days, so you have to make sure your resume uses the key words from the job description.Nyc10036 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:26 pmThank you.AnnetteLouisan wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:11 pmYou may find interesting Elizabeth White‘s book, Twitter and Ted talk - „55, unemployed and faking normal.“ Or Neil Gabler‘s interviews on PBS and The Atlantic regarding financial insecurity among white collar folks.
I am very fortunate that I have been Boglehead-ish since graduating college without knowing it.
LBYM has saved my bacon so to speak.
It has been an eye-opening experience.
.
Another great book is The Feminine Mistake by Leslie Bennetts. Discusses strategies for re-entry into the workplace, among other things.
Good luck with your search!
Last edited by AnnetteLouisan on Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
No, I assumed you saw the job posted and replied. I agree that the old practice of employers always responding to applicants, even ones they aren't considering, doesn't seem to be the case any longer - regardless of the applicant's age. I was once tempted to a apply for a job I'd had once and saw posted, but didn't. "You can't go home again" probably applies in 99% of employment situations.Nyc10036 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:01 pmI got the impression you thought I applied on a whim.tibbitts wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:57 pmI'm not sure why where or if the job was advertised would relate to my comments.Nyc10036 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:48 pmThe job was advertised online and was on the company's website.tibbitts wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:01 pmI think it would be unusual for a business to hire you back for a job you did before after eight years, almost regardless of the circumstances you left under. There might be some exceptions - maybe someone who left due to a spouse relocating for example. I don't think the silence was unique to you; they probably only communicate with candidates they want to pursue.Nyc10036 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:18 pm It is hard finding another job.
Just for grins, in late August 2021, I applied for the same job at the same place that I left in 2013.
Dead silence.
I don't know if they didn't like the fact that I have been working part-time 1099 jobs since then or what.
Or that I am in my late 50s now.
I have not heard a peep for anyone for any of the jobs I applied for.
.
.
I didn't say the silence was unique.
As this thread is partly about finding a job in one's 50's, this has been my experience.
Sadly, it has been mostly SILENCE.
.
- CyclingDuo
- Posts: 6009
- Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:07 am
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
A feature article appeared yesterday in Barron's entitled Only Half of People Stay Employed Through Their 50s. How to Prepare.
I thought it was pertinent enough to add the link of the Barron's article to this thread that I started back in 2019 after experiencing the layoff I went through at the time when I was age 56. The article cited the usual top reasons for only 50% of people remaining employed through their 50's: "Among the top reasons are being laid off or pushed out of work, health concerns, and caregiving responsibilities, according to the authors."
A couple of pertinent snips from the article...
People who get laid off in their 50s often seek to replicate their prior positions and salaries in their new positions. However understandable, this impulse often holds them back. “The idea that you’re just going to go from one Fortune 500 company to another in the same role—it happens, but it’s not easy,” Taylor says.
David Wiczer, associate advisor at the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta and a research fellow at the IZA Institute of Labor Economics, says it’s normal after a period of unemployment for people in their 50s to get offered a lower salary than the one they left. In fact, his research has found workers 56 and older earn about a quarter less on average in their new job after they’ve remained unemployed for at least a month. His advice? Take the lesser offer. Once you’re in the job, you can try to maneuver your way into something better. “The best way to get back to where you were is to be employed,” Wiczer says.
https://www.barrons.com/articles/workin ... eid=yhoof2
I've documented in prior posts what I went through, the retooling, and my subsequent landing of a full-time job in an entirely different industry than my prior 33-35 years former career. Like Wiczer's advice on workers 56 and older earning about a quarter less on average in their new job, I too got back in at a lower salary and climbed my way up to finally surpassing the prior salary in my former career that I was making when I was terminated.
My prior post in this thread was in 2021 when I mentioned my spouse would be retiring in 2023 and I would call an audible on what I would do when she retired. My audible has now been called after her retirement this month. I still really love my new job, so will continue working as we stick with our original plan of staggering our retirements due to the four year age difference between us. One year at at time.
For those in their 50's, and for those who are approaching their 50's - I would encourage reading some of the links and thoughts throughout this thread. We were in the middle of our empty nest years phase before retirement where we had planned on, and were investing utilizing the age 50 and over extra contributions allowed by law. We just thought of it, based on an article by Michael Kitces back in 2016, as an opportunity to use the empty nest phase as a key phase to fill the gap on retirement savings due to lowered household expenses with the kids out of the house. Although we had done a pretty good job saving/investing up until my layoff, we were able to continue on that path due to landing new replacement income.
One of those interviewed in the article in Barron's called the age 50 and over allowed contributions, panic contributions. I'm not sure I agree with her particular terminology, but here is what she said...
“I think of catch-up contributions as panic contributions,” says Teresa Ghilarducci, professor of economics at the New School. “That’s what Congress should have called them.”
Article based on various sources of work, but here's an excellent part 1 video link from one source of the author of the book that was released in 2022 entitled Overtime: America’s Aging Workforce and the Future of Working Longer: https://forum-network.org/lectures/reti ... ng-longer/
CyclingDuo
I thought it was pertinent enough to add the link of the Barron's article to this thread that I started back in 2019 after experiencing the layoff I went through at the time when I was age 56. The article cited the usual top reasons for only 50% of people remaining employed through their 50's: "Among the top reasons are being laid off or pushed out of work, health concerns, and caregiving responsibilities, according to the authors."
A couple of pertinent snips from the article...
People who get laid off in their 50s often seek to replicate their prior positions and salaries in their new positions. However understandable, this impulse often holds them back. “The idea that you’re just going to go from one Fortune 500 company to another in the same role—it happens, but it’s not easy,” Taylor says.
David Wiczer, associate advisor at the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta and a research fellow at the IZA Institute of Labor Economics, says it’s normal after a period of unemployment for people in their 50s to get offered a lower salary than the one they left. In fact, his research has found workers 56 and older earn about a quarter less on average in their new job after they’ve remained unemployed for at least a month. His advice? Take the lesser offer. Once you’re in the job, you can try to maneuver your way into something better. “The best way to get back to where you were is to be employed,” Wiczer says.
https://www.barrons.com/articles/workin ... eid=yhoof2
I've documented in prior posts what I went through, the retooling, and my subsequent landing of a full-time job in an entirely different industry than my prior 33-35 years former career. Like Wiczer's advice on workers 56 and older earning about a quarter less on average in their new job, I too got back in at a lower salary and climbed my way up to finally surpassing the prior salary in my former career that I was making when I was terminated.
My prior post in this thread was in 2021 when I mentioned my spouse would be retiring in 2023 and I would call an audible on what I would do when she retired. My audible has now been called after her retirement this month. I still really love my new job, so will continue working as we stick with our original plan of staggering our retirements due to the four year age difference between us. One year at at time.
For those in their 50's, and for those who are approaching their 50's - I would encourage reading some of the links and thoughts throughout this thread. We were in the middle of our empty nest years phase before retirement where we had planned on, and were investing utilizing the age 50 and over extra contributions allowed by law. We just thought of it, based on an article by Michael Kitces back in 2016, as an opportunity to use the empty nest phase as a key phase to fill the gap on retirement savings due to lowered household expenses with the kids out of the house. Although we had done a pretty good job saving/investing up until my layoff, we were able to continue on that path due to landing new replacement income.
One of those interviewed in the article in Barron's called the age 50 and over allowed contributions, panic contributions. I'm not sure I agree with her particular terminology, but here is what she said...
“I think of catch-up contributions as panic contributions,” says Teresa Ghilarducci, professor of economics at the New School. “That’s what Congress should have called them.”
Article based on various sources of work, but here's an excellent part 1 video link from one source of the author of the book that was released in 2022 entitled Overtime: America’s Aging Workforce and the Future of Working Longer: https://forum-network.org/lectures/reti ... ng-longer/
CyclingDuo
"Save like a pessimist, invest like an optimist." - Morgan Housel |
"Pick a bushel, save a peck!" - Grandpa
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
Interesting article, but it should be titled "what happens next", it's not about how to prepare, really.CyclingDuo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 11:06 am A feature article appeared yesterday in Barron's entitled Only Half of People Stay Employed Through Their 50s. How to Prepare.
I'm closing in to my 49th birthday, so that's something I'm really thinking about. How to prepare for it, how to mitigate the impact if/when it happens. There are a few things in my control, so I'm focusing on those:
* Keep my skills and credentials up to date. I'm in tech (system architecture). A few years ago, I was laid off and got onto the cloud train - probably one of the best moves I could have done. Now I'm doing everything I can to catch up and learn all these different techs that I've access to, on top of my core job. Hours of learning, getting certifications - on all 3 clouds and in my core domain, etc. A lot more architecture and design that actual "hands on the keyboard" tech work. Ultimately, I know what my customers need, so I'm making sure I have the skills and credentials so I can rebound if I lose my current job. I have a training and certification plan for this year, and I'll make one next year too.
* In the same spirit, I'm currently learning as much as I can about generative AI and its practical applications.
* While I kinda hate it, keeping active on LinkedIn - and keeping my resume up to date.
* Saving as much as I can while I'm making good money - so I can live on my savings if need be, and if I have to get a job that is not as good in terms of benefits, I won't lose too much retirement time. That will includes catch-up contributions starting next year. Also trying to get to FI as early as I can, so if I do lose my job at the same age you did, I can just decide to pull the plug.
- Harry Livermore
- Posts: 1937
- Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:32 am
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
CyclingDuo, thanks again for starting this thread. Although I'm self-employed, the same situation(s) affecting IT folks seems to be affecting me as well.
I have long assumed that someday I would be seen as "too old" to get hired in my chosen profession, and always lived below my means. My goal was to not be desperate to work in my 50s, and that much I have achieved. We are very likely FI, but I'm also not ready to RE. As a 56 year old, I wonder, "what's next?" I hear an echo but no answer. If I had another $1MM in taxable, I would likely default to a life of leisure. But I don't have that extra cushion, plus I love what I do. "What next?"
And being under-employed as a self-employed individual makes it hard to analyze. You get a "tease" of being busy for a few weeks or months, then more dry spells. You chat or text with your circle of people in the industry and find out everyone is slow. Then you pick up, but everyone else is slow. Then it reverses. But overall, you are not as busy as you were in 2016, 2006, 1996, etc. It's tough to parse out. It's certainly not like someone rings a bell, or even what I assume is the employee's equivalent of being laid off and not hired after 36 months. The start-and-stop makes it difficult to tease out "am I done?"
Anyway, I soldier on. Congrats on your new path (from 2021) and also to KlangFool, who seemingly shares my slightly dark worldview that calamity lurks. I always appreciate KF's contributions to the "Do I Need An Emergency Fund?" threads...
Cheers
ETA: spellling
I have long assumed that someday I would be seen as "too old" to get hired in my chosen profession, and always lived below my means. My goal was to not be desperate to work in my 50s, and that much I have achieved. We are very likely FI, but I'm also not ready to RE. As a 56 year old, I wonder, "what's next?" I hear an echo but no answer. If I had another $1MM in taxable, I would likely default to a life of leisure. But I don't have that extra cushion, plus I love what I do. "What next?"
And being under-employed as a self-employed individual makes it hard to analyze. You get a "tease" of being busy for a few weeks or months, then more dry spells. You chat or text with your circle of people in the industry and find out everyone is slow. Then you pick up, but everyone else is slow. Then it reverses. But overall, you are not as busy as you were in 2016, 2006, 1996, etc. It's tough to parse out. It's certainly not like someone rings a bell, or even what I assume is the employee's equivalent of being laid off and not hired after 36 months. The start-and-stop makes it difficult to tease out "am I done?"
Anyway, I soldier on. Congrats on your new path (from 2021) and also to KlangFool, who seemingly shares my slightly dark worldview that calamity lurks. I always appreciate KF's contributions to the "Do I Need An Emergency Fund?" threads...
Cheers
ETA: spellling
- CyclingDuo
- Posts: 6009
- Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:07 am
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
Sounds like your income stream is much like what Larry Swedroe called in his 2019 retirement book "stock like".Harry Livermore wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 1:19 pmI have long assumed that someday I would be seen as "too old" to get hired in my chosen profession, and always lived below my means. My goal was to not be desperate to work in my 50s, and that much I have achieved. We are very likely FI, but I'm also not ready to RE. As a 56 year old, I wonder, "what's next?" I hear an echo but no answer. If I had another $1MM in taxable, I would likely default to a life of leisure. But I don't have that extra cushion, plus I love what I do. "What next?"
And being under-employed as a self-employed individual makes it hard to analyze. You get a "tease" of being busy for a few weeks or months, then more dry spells. You chat or text with your circle of people in the industry and find out everyone is slow. Then you pick up, but everyone else is slow. Then it reverses. But overall, you are not as busy as you were in 2016, 2006, 1996, etc. It's tough to parse out. It's certainly not like someone rings a bell, or even what I assume is the employee's equivalent of being laid off and not hired after 36 months. The start-and-stop makes it difficult to tease out "am I done?"
I was just like you at age 56 - not ready to retire regardless of our situation financially. If you are hearing an "echo", perhaps it is simply a reaction to the routine you are currently in day to day. IMO, there is nothing wrong with a routine or the echo you are hearing. It's always a good time to reflect on all that you have done, accomplished, and brainstorm a bit as you think about the next decade in terms of what it is you want it to look like regarding your work, leisure, friendships, and relationships.
The video link above was a really good interview and piqued my interest in reading the book Overtime: America’s Aging Workforce and the Future of Working Longer:
https://forum-network.org/lectures/reti ... ng-longer/
My interest in reading it is partly due to what I have been through and am currently in, and how much in the norm it is within the studies the authors of the book conducted. There are other reasons the book interests me, but I hesitate to bring up the term ageism for all of the connotations that may invoke, but it sounds like the authors address it in their book as well as the term aesthetic labor. For my part, I have always resisted what I see others in their 50's and 60's in the workforce do such as always feeling the need to dye their hair. I've always refused to give in to that, and finally encouraged my wife many years ago to follow suit. We do keep healthy, trim and fit, but no dying of the hair. Surrounding the aesthetic labor issue - I want to read more about what they found in their studies. I know the company I work for certainly uses it within their external marketing and internal instructional videos/pictures. I was shocked during Covid when we were all spending a lot of time on WebEx how many gray hairs there were, because it was pretty much nowhere to be found in the company's marketing or in the internal videos and graphics.
Watch the video, for those interested, and comment on what was said.
CyclingDuo
"Save like a pessimist, invest like an optimist." - Morgan Housel |
"Pick a bushel, save a peck!" - Grandpa
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
Mid 40’s and thinking along these lines.
Torn over whether to reduce my 401k contributions (usually max out) and start saving more in taxable for that future layoff / job loss to be more prepared.
Torn over whether to reduce my 401k contributions (usually max out) and start saving more in taxable for that future layoff / job loss to be more prepared.
Mid-40’s
-
- Posts: 267
- Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:37 pm
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
Continue the 401k. Have an EF ready. I am 52. I maximize contributions but I have a EF to lean on. Also keep skills current.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
From today's WSJ - "The Reasons More People Are Working in Their 80s"
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
CyclingDuo. Thanks for the update.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
Interesting article and very interesting thread - thank you so much for theseCyclingDuo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 11:06 am A feature article appeared yesterday in Barron's entitled Only Half of People Stay Employed Through Their 50s. How to Prepare. . . .
- CyclingDuo
- Posts: 6009
- Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:07 am
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
I would agree to keep on with the funding of the retirement plan(s) routine, have an EF, and always be polishing skills.humbledinvestor wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 10:08 pmContinue the 401k. Have an EF ready. I am 52. I maximize contributions but I have a EF to lean on. Also keep skills current.
I guess my question to mortfree would be whether or not his/her household is a single or a dual income household. The latter provides a cushion that helps temper the blow financially during any sort of transition.
CyclingDuo
"Save like a pessimist, invest like an optimist." - Morgan Housel |
"Pick a bushel, save a peck!" - Grandpa
- Harry Livermore
- Posts: 1937
- Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:32 am
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
I snipped this just to give a small bit of context.CyclingDuo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 6:46 pm
Sounds like your income stream is much like what Larry Swedroe called in his 2019 retirement book "stock like".
I have two components to my "income". The first is me, as skilled freelance labor in a field that combines art and craft, and more recently, tech. That part has always been "stock-like". It's gotten tougher as the "tech" part has removed all barriers to entry. The second component has been the rental and long-term leasing of specialized equipment in my field. That has traditionally been much more bond-like, and in many years far eclipsed the income on my labor. This has not gone unnoticed by colleagues, and many folks have entered that part of the business and driven down rates with the resulting glut of equipment.
I'm still able to navigate the waters and make a solidly middle-class income. But I'd prefer to be busier, and I had always assumed that the money I earned later in life might be more freely spent on travel, or that fun car, or more dinners out. I was very committed to fully funding my small company retirement plan for many years, during my most profitable and productive era. "Retirement" is probably taken care of.
So, no tears need be shed on my account. But we may not get that Boxster if this is it going forward...
Cheers
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
Interesting and a bit upsetting to read this thread. I'm not far from 50, have recently lost my job, and confess to being unsure about what to do. I wanted to chime in to say that it's complex. I question the advice that too confidently says: sell you house, move to a low cost of living area, stop all spending. I wish it was so clear. Don't mean to hijack the thread but wanted to show why it's not so clear to me.
Work: I work in an industry that is in sudden and industry-wide crisis. I'm not the only one who is having a hard time right now. Nobody knows what things will look like in six months. My industry is rooted in the high-cost location where I live. If I move away it might be much harder for me to find a job, much less one that pays close to as well as my previous one. I'm looking for consulting work, and freelance work but I'm also a bit wary of taking work that will send the message that I've abandoned doing the sort of work I spent years working towards, though I recognize I may have to at some point. I'm open to changing my industry, but it's really had to know where to start since what I do is pretty specific and I'm not sure how to 'transfer' my success to a new arena. Staying put, catching up with colleagues, and staying in the game feels like the best way to find the next opportunity.
Housing / location: We live in a high cost of living area and bought a house this time last year after over a year of looking and a few months before I lost my job and my industry fell apart. We aren't seriously under water but we definite can't sell at a profit. If I could wind back time I would have bought a cheaper house but it couldn't have been much cheaper in our city. Our mortgage payment is high but the house is a good value for where we live, it's a relatively cheap house in an expensive neighborhood and now I feel locked in with a 4.3% mortgage. We also love the house and the community so holding onto it feels like a priority. Selling to buy a 500K cheaper house at a significantly higher rate doesn't seem to makes sense nor does moving to another, lower cost state.
Kids / Schools / Childcare: I have a 5 year old and a baby so I need to find a way to keep going in work for all kinds of reasons. The one glaring thing to cut in our budget is our nanny. I know having a nanny is a huge luxury and it's wildly expensive. We are taking steps to move away from this, but this is someone who is great at her job, who my children love, and who also enables both my wife and I to dedicate our days to work. We will do it but it's not so easy to do it quickly. The older child starts school at the local zoned public school next year which is A+, another reason to hold onto the housing.
Finances: Mortgage plus taxes is 10K / mos. Other expenses tag 6 or 7K onto that. We put 400K down on a 2MIL house. I had been making a bit over 400K. Wife makes 100K. Also had various profit sharing a scheduled raises that made us take the risk on the house. Have a bit over 1MIL in a mix of savings and retirement accounts. I'm just through a 6 mos severance. I'm technically due 600K in profit sharing next year but I feel like my company will try to avoid paying. I have a parent who is in his late 80s, doing ok, and I know it's not smart to thing about inheritances, but there is a likelihood of a 3MIL+ windfall in some number of years. Wife could consider a slightly higher paying job that would provide us health insurance. I wonder if we can slow the bleed of savings over time, get the infant into daycare, eventually get an inheritance... is it worth hanging on? It's not clear where else we would go or what we would do there.
In summary: I'm really worried but I'm not sure what to do. I know some will read this, see the high numbers and say that we are dumb. Maybe that's what I need to hear? But we love our house and our life and we don't want to give it up. That said, our marriage and family are strong and we both value our family more than jobs, houses etc. If we make radical changes it feel like we might make it even harder to get back to a good place so we have to figure out when and how to do radical things. Of course even though I'm rooted in the many ways my life is good it's also important to acknowledge that all of this is depressing and that makes it harder to take action or to be one's best self.
Work: I work in an industry that is in sudden and industry-wide crisis. I'm not the only one who is having a hard time right now. Nobody knows what things will look like in six months. My industry is rooted in the high-cost location where I live. If I move away it might be much harder for me to find a job, much less one that pays close to as well as my previous one. I'm looking for consulting work, and freelance work but I'm also a bit wary of taking work that will send the message that I've abandoned doing the sort of work I spent years working towards, though I recognize I may have to at some point. I'm open to changing my industry, but it's really had to know where to start since what I do is pretty specific and I'm not sure how to 'transfer' my success to a new arena. Staying put, catching up with colleagues, and staying in the game feels like the best way to find the next opportunity.
Housing / location: We live in a high cost of living area and bought a house this time last year after over a year of looking and a few months before I lost my job and my industry fell apart. We aren't seriously under water but we definite can't sell at a profit. If I could wind back time I would have bought a cheaper house but it couldn't have been much cheaper in our city. Our mortgage payment is high but the house is a good value for where we live, it's a relatively cheap house in an expensive neighborhood and now I feel locked in with a 4.3% mortgage. We also love the house and the community so holding onto it feels like a priority. Selling to buy a 500K cheaper house at a significantly higher rate doesn't seem to makes sense nor does moving to another, lower cost state.
Kids / Schools / Childcare: I have a 5 year old and a baby so I need to find a way to keep going in work for all kinds of reasons. The one glaring thing to cut in our budget is our nanny. I know having a nanny is a huge luxury and it's wildly expensive. We are taking steps to move away from this, but this is someone who is great at her job, who my children love, and who also enables both my wife and I to dedicate our days to work. We will do it but it's not so easy to do it quickly. The older child starts school at the local zoned public school next year which is A+, another reason to hold onto the housing.
Finances: Mortgage plus taxes is 10K / mos. Other expenses tag 6 or 7K onto that. We put 400K down on a 2MIL house. I had been making a bit over 400K. Wife makes 100K. Also had various profit sharing a scheduled raises that made us take the risk on the house. Have a bit over 1MIL in a mix of savings and retirement accounts. I'm just through a 6 mos severance. I'm technically due 600K in profit sharing next year but I feel like my company will try to avoid paying. I have a parent who is in his late 80s, doing ok, and I know it's not smart to thing about inheritances, but there is a likelihood of a 3MIL+ windfall in some number of years. Wife could consider a slightly higher paying job that would provide us health insurance. I wonder if we can slow the bleed of savings over time, get the infant into daycare, eventually get an inheritance... is it worth hanging on? It's not clear where else we would go or what we would do there.
In summary: I'm really worried but I'm not sure what to do. I know some will read this, see the high numbers and say that we are dumb. Maybe that's what I need to hear? But we love our house and our life and we don't want to give it up. That said, our marriage and family are strong and we both value our family more than jobs, houses etc. If we make radical changes it feel like we might make it even harder to get back to a good place so we have to figure out when and how to do radical things. Of course even though I'm rooted in the many ways my life is good it's also important to acknowledge that all of this is depressing and that makes it harder to take action or to be one's best self.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
This is your problem! You are on the hedonic treadmill. I also live in a HCOL area and lived on a single income, raised 3 kids, put them through college debt free, paid off the mortgage, and saved for retirement. All on a fraction of what your income is.investit wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 4:03 pm Finances: Mortgage plus taxes is 10K / mos. Other expenses tag 6 or 7K onto that. We put 400K down on a 2MIL house. I had been making a bit over 400K. Wife makes 100K. Also had various profit sharing a scheduled raises that made us take the risk on the house. Have a bit over 1MIL in a mix of savings and retirement accounts.
How? Modest home, public transport, one car that we kept for many years, public school for the kids, rarely eating out, looking for bargains, some side gigs. This is not rocket science. Spend less and save more. Oh, and we had "experiences". Each year we saved for a international vacation, but we also stayed with family and friends when possible, or visited inexpensive locations where accommodations were cheap. I hate cruises and resorts anyway and prefer adventure travel (hiking, walking, museums, etc.) Visit Europe in the off season when the weather is cold and miserable. Finally, we avoided debt like the plague. That meant no HELOCs, store credit cards, car leases, etc. If we couldn't pay cash, we didn't get it.
The question isn't at what age I want to retire, it's at what income. |
- George Foreman
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
I hear you! But I should add: we own one, not fancy car outright and use an electric bike for other chores. We haven't taken a vacation other than home to visit parents in years. We don't eat out hardly at all though food still seems to cost a lot. I like to cook and we shop mostly at Costco. I do accept that we are on a sort of 'hedonic treadmill' but it doesn't feel very hedonic. It's mostly house and childcare which come to 4k / mos between nanny and preschool. Those are luxuries to be sure, but we are frugal in many ways.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
It sounds like you have a good handle on your expenses. A lot of homeowners underestimate the impact of interest, taxes, and maintenance, which can end up sucking a lot of your cash flow. Even without a mortgage and solar power covering all our energy costs, our monthly expenses are in the thousands. When we retire (or sooner) we will probably get rid of the house and rent. But having a stable home certainly help create some stability when raising kids.investit wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 4:38 pm I hear you! But I should add: we own one, not fancy car outright and use an electric bike for other chores. We haven't taken a vacation other than home to visit parents in years. We don't eat out hardly at all though food still seems to cost a lot. I like to cook and we shop mostly at Costco. I do accept that we are on a sort of 'hedonic treadmill' but it doesn't feel very hedonic. It's mostly house and childcare which come to 4k / mos between nanny and preschool. Those are luxuries to be sure, but we are frugal in many ways.
The question isn't at what age I want to retire, it's at what income. |
- George Foreman
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
Everybody's situation is complex, and there are no easy answers.investit wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 4:03 pm Interesting and a bit upsetting to read this thread. I'm not far from 50, have recently lost my job, and confess to being unsure about what to do. I wanted to chime in to say that it's complex. I question the advice that too confidently says: sell you house, move to a low cost of living area, stop all spending. I wish it was so clear. Don't mean to hijack the thread but wanted to show why it's not so clear to me.
I work in an industry that has had big swings of boom and bust, some I survived, some I didn't. This last time around I totally changed my plan, I set up my life so that my job didn't dictate just about every aspect of my life. That meant finding a lower cost place to live, and a way to live so losing a job wasn't such a threat.
The big hit was that my wife was in the hospital and on her way to being fully disabled when I was laid-off, plus our property was destroyed by a natural disaster at the same time. It was a triple whammy. My wife's health care costs wiped out most of our savings, and our home went to almost zero in value.
After taking full responsibility and changing just about everything, I'm in a very good place. It's scary to change how you live, but if you don't a have choice, you just have to do it.
Eight years ago it was a duel career income home with good savings, but with debt. Now it's one income, just me, that is less than what I made before, but we are completely debt free, no mortgage or anything else, yet we save more than ever before.
Sometimes the right decision is difficult, or may seem impossible, but there is always a way to take control of what you can and move forward.
Last edited by ondarvr on Wed Jun 28, 2023 2:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
That's incredible. Even more so that you were able to recover from it.ondarvr wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 1:18 pmEverybody's situation is complex, and there are no easy answers.investit wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 4:03 pm Interesting and a bit upsetting to read this thread. I'm not far from 50, have recently lost my job, and confess to being unsure about what to do. I wanted to chime in to say that it's complex. I question the advice that too confidently says: sell you house, move to a low cost of living area, stop all spending. I wish it was so clear. Don't mean to hijack the thread but wanted to show why it's not so clear to me.
I work in an industry that has had big swings of boom and bust, some I survived, some I didn't. This last time around I totally changed my plan, I set up my life so that my job didn't dictate just about every aspect of my life. That meant finding a lower cost place to live, and a way to live so losing a job wasn't such a threat.
The big hit was that my wife in the hospital and on her way to being fully disabled when I was laid-off, plus our property was destroyed by a natural disaster at the same time. It was a triple whammy. My wife's health care costs wiped out most of our savings, and our home went to almost zero in value.
After taking full responsibility and changing just about everything, I'm in a very good place. It's scary to change how you live, but if you don't have choice, you just have to do it.
Eight years ago it was a duel career income home with good savings, but with debt. Now it's one income, just me, that is less than what I made before, but we are completely debt free, no mortgage or anything else, yet we save more than ever before.
Sometimes the right decision is difficult, or may seem impossible, but there is always a way to take control of what you can and move forward.
The question isn't at what age I want to retire, it's at what income. |
- George Foreman
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
Oh is this true, the cost of upkeep on a home. We live in a VHCOL tropical paradise and we need to prune our many large oaks and palms again, and all quotes for pruning and hauling away by licensed & insured companies are pretty much the same $4,000-$4,500 - which we already paid a mere 16 months ago for pruning the same trees - and when every pruning is done, before the ink on the check dries, the trees have already started growing againHarmanic wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 5:12 pm . . . A lot of homeowners underestimate the impact of interest, taxes, and maintenance, which can end up sucking a lot of your cash flow. Even without a mortgage and solar power covering all our energy costs, our monthly expenses are in the thousands. When we retire (or sooner) we will probably get rid of the house and rent. . .
- CyclingDuo
- Posts: 6009
- Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:07 am
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
Sorry to hear of your plight, but thanks for posting. The thread was originally designed for others to post up what they are going through. So thanks for doing that!investit wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 4:03 pmInteresting and a bit upsetting to read this thread. I'm not far from 50, have recently lost my job, and confess to being unsure about what to do. I wanted to chime in to say that it's complex. I question the advice that too confidently says: sell you house, move to a low cost of living area, stop all spending. I wish it was so clear. Don't mean to hijack the thread but wanted to show why it's not so clear to me.
Work: I work in an industry that is in sudden and industry-wide crisis. I'm not the only one who is having a hard time right now. Nobody knows what things will look like in six months. My industry is rooted in the high-cost location where I live. If I move away it might be much harder for me to find a job, much less one that pays close to as well as my previous one. I'm looking for consulting work, and freelance work but I'm also a bit wary of taking work that will send the message that I've abandoned doing the sort of work I spent years working towards, though I recognize I may have to at some point. I'm open to changing my industry, but it's really had to know where to start since what I do is pretty specific and I'm not sure how to 'transfer' my success to a new arena. Staying put, catching up with colleagues, and staying in the game feels like the best way to find the next opportunity.
Housing / location: We live in a high cost of living area and bought a house this time last year after over a year of looking and a few months before I lost my job and my industry fell apart. We aren't seriously under water but we definite can't sell at a profit. If I could wind back time I would have bought a cheaper house but it couldn't have been much cheaper in our city. Our mortgage payment is high but the house is a good value for where we live, it's a relatively cheap house in an expensive neighborhood and now I feel locked in with a 4.3% mortgage. We also love the house and the community so holding onto it feels like a priority. Selling to buy a 500K cheaper house at a significantly higher rate doesn't seem to makes sense nor does moving to another, lower cost state.
Kids / Schools / Childcare: I have a 5 year old and a baby so I need to find a way to keep going in work for all kinds of reasons. The one glaring thing to cut in our budget is our nanny. I know having a nanny is a huge luxury and it's wildly expensive. We are taking steps to move away from this, but this is someone who is great at her job, who my children love, and who also enables both my wife and I to dedicate our days to work. We will do it but it's not so easy to do it quickly. The older child starts school at the local zoned public school next year which is A+, another reason to hold onto the housing.
Finances: Mortgage plus taxes is 10K / mos. Other expenses tag 6 or 7K onto that. We put 400K down on a 2MIL house. I had been making a bit over 400K. Wife makes 100K. Also had various profit sharing a scheduled raises that made us take the risk on the house. Have a bit over 1MIL in a mix of savings and retirement accounts. I'm just through a 6 mos severance. I'm technically due 600K in profit sharing next year but I feel like my company will try to avoid paying. I have a parent who is in his late 80s, doing ok, and I know it's not smart to thing about inheritances, but there is a likelihood of a 3MIL+ windfall in some number of years. Wife could consider a slightly higher paying job that would provide us health insurance. I wonder if we can slow the bleed of savings over time, get the infant into daycare, eventually get an inheritance... is it worth hanging on? It's not clear where else we would go or what we would do there.
In summary: I'm really worried but I'm not sure what to do. I know some will read this, see the high numbers and say that we are dumb. Maybe that's what I need to hear? But we love our house and our life and we don't want to give it up. That said, our marriage and family are strong and we both value our family more than jobs, houses etc. If we make radical changes it feel like we might make it even harder to get back to a good place so we have to figure out when and how to do radical things. Of course even though I'm rooted in the many ways my life is good it's also important to acknowledge that all of this is depressing and that makes it harder to take action or to be one's best self.
How is the job search going within your industry? If the prospects look dire regarding the shorter term within your industry - say months to a few years - what are you going to do to bring in some income? How much more can you hunker down with all of the household expenses in the shorter term (months to a few years) to counteract the loss of your prior cash flow?
As I reported in previous posts within this thread, it took until the 4th year after my layoff of scrambling and growing within a new unrelated job to my prior career to finally equal, and then surpass my prior earnings. I wasn't expecting that to happen, but feel very fortunate now that I kept at it with the way things have turned out.
Our household wishes you all the best as you pivot and work through the layoff, and your subsequent search to replace your income. We are rooting for you with all you have to go through in the coming months/years.
CyclingDuo
"Save like a pessimist, invest like an optimist." - Morgan Housel |
"Pick a bushel, save a peck!" - Grandpa
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
Mainly single income with my wife working one day a week. Worst case I lose my job and she could work more days per week and get us (crappy) benefits.CyclingDuo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 6:25 amI would agree to keep on with the funding of the retirement plan(s) routine, have an EF, and always be polishing skills.humbledinvestor wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 10:08 pmContinue the 401k. Have an EF ready. I am 52. I maximize contributions but I have a EF to lean on. Also keep skills current.
I guess my question to mortfree would be whether or not his/her household is a single or a dual income household. The latter provides a cushion that helps temper the blow financially during any sort of transition.
CyclingDuo
Money wise I think I am in good shape. 300k taxable and 800k retirement.
Expenses are probably around 50k per year
Mid-40’s
- CyclingDuo
- Posts: 6009
- Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:07 am
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
Looks like you are in good shape for being in your mid 40's. One day, one week, one month, one year at a time while keeping on with your current job to continue to build for the future in case of a layoff in your 50's.mortfree wrote: ↑Sun Jul 02, 2023 1:47 pmMainly single income with my wife working one day a week. Worst case I lose my job and she could work more days per week and get us (crappy) benefits.
Money wise I think I am in good shape. 300k taxable and 800k retirement.
Expenses are probably around 50k per year
CyclingDuo
"Save like a pessimist, invest like an optimist." - Morgan Housel |
"Pick a bushel, save a peck!" - Grandpa
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
I was in your spot in 2005 at 41 years old when my career imploded due to a merger. However, I chose door #2. We sold the expensive house in a VHCOL area and I slowly rebuilt my career elsewhere. Things turned out well enough that I was able to retire just as I turned 56. I have no idea what would have happened if I kept on that treadmill. I probably would have had a heart attack like my dad.investit wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 4:38 pm I hear you! But I should add: we own one, not fancy car outright and use an electric bike for other chores. We haven't taken a vacation other than home to visit parents in years. We don't eat out hardly at all though food still seems to cost a lot. I like to cook and we shop mostly at Costco. I do accept that we are on a sort of 'hedonic treadmill' but it doesn't feel very hedonic. It's mostly house and childcare which come to 4k / mos between nanny and preschool. Those are luxuries to be sure, but we are frugal in many ways.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
I'm hesitant to post as I don't want to come across as overly critical, but as someone of similar age with similar household income, there are some red flags here.investit wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 4:03 pm Interesting and a bit upsetting to read this thread. I'm not far from 50, have recently lost my job, and confess to being unsure about what to do.
[snip]
Work: I work in an industry that is in sudden and industry-wide crisis. I'm not the only one who is having a hard time right now. Nobody knows what things will look like in six months. My industry is rooted in the high-cost location where I live. If I move away it might be much harder for me to find a job, much less one that pays close to as well as my previous one. I'm looking for consulting work, and freelance work but I'm also a bit wary of taking work that will send the message that I've abandoned doing the sort of work I spent years working towards, though I recognize I may have to at some point. I'm open to changing my industry, but it's really had to know where to start since what I do is pretty specific and I'm not sure how to 'transfer' my success to a new arena. Staying put, catching up with colleagues, and staying in the game feels like the best way to find the next opportunity.
[snip]
Finances: Mortgage plus taxes is 10K / mos. Other expenses tag 6 or 7K onto that. We put 400K down on a 2MIL house. I had been making a bit over 400K. Wife makes 100K. Also had various profit sharing a scheduled raises that made us take the risk on the house. Have a bit over 1MIL in a mix of savings and retirement accounts. I'm just through a 6 mos severance. I'm technically due 600K in profit sharing next year but I feel like my company will try to avoid paying. I have a parent who is in his late 80s, doing ok, and I know it's not smart to thing about inheritances, but there is a likelihood of a 3MIL+ windfall in some number of years. Wife could consider a slightly higher paying job that would provide us health insurance. I wonder if we can slow the bleed of savings over time, get the infant into daycare, eventually get an inheritance... is it worth hanging on? It's not clear where else we would go or what we would do there.
First off, how certain are you of your monthly spend? You say you are spending $16-17K, but with a $10K mortgage and $4K in childcare, this seems almost impossible. Is the extra $2K-3K really covering everything else? Food, clothes, utilities, baby supplies, auto insurance & maintenance, life insurance, home upkeep such as yard maintenance, etc...Our monthly expenses are similar to yours with a $5300 mortgage and no debt other than the house.
Second, the higher your income, the harder it is to replace a job. Your field is in a crisis, you haven't found anything in six months, and you are not certain how easily you can transition your skills to another, similar paying position. None of that bodes well for continuing to be able to afford your lifestyle.
Third, you apparently have no health insurance. I'm guessing this was covered by your severance and you'll now need to pay COBRA for a while, increasing your expenses even more.
Finally, and this is probably the hardest pill to swallow...Even if you can replace your income, you presumably have nearly 30 years left on the mortgage. How are you planning on paying off the mortgage, hopefully helping two kids through college, and saving enough to eventually retire? I don't see the math working unless you anticipate downsizing significantly, and if that's the plan, perhaps you are better off doing it now and stop hemorrhaging money.
Again, not trying to be mean...just sharing some thoughts.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
Thanks for sharing the article. Not surprising, but a good reminder as I am now 50.
Thus far, I have never been unemployed, but have come close once and am keenly aware I am not immune. I am particularly aware as we have 4 children with college, cars, and all the significant expenses one may expect during this period of life. Savings remain solid, but cash reserves are quite a bit lower than it has been in the past. Some is purposeful (spent a few years maxing out mega backdoor Roth), while other is for things like making sure everyone has a car, and insurance, etc. The children make some contributions toward this as well...but the overall costs are a good amount.
As far as behaviors / actions to help stave off unemployment (besides good work) and minimize its potential impact.
* Consistently living beneath our means.
* Consistent saving since I started full time working in my 20s, increasing contributions as salary grew. At age 50, it will be difficult to be unemployed...but not nearly as bad as for those who start saving late.
* Not sticking my head up too high. I have friends and co-workers who have climbed the ladder, but eventually found themselves unemployed during times of cost cutting, organizational change, etc. They certainly had higher salaries, but some were unemployed for a year a more. I am more like the tortoise...trying to stay continuously employed and satisfied that I have "enough" as far as interesting work and compensation.
* Doing whatever is asked of me. I will gladly take on whatever needs to be done...big or small, interesting or cruddy.
* Exceptional flexibility as far as working hours if needed. Call needed in mid of night...ok for me.
* Maintaining good relationships. Sometimes it simply boils down to this.
Of course, I recognize that despite one's efforts, you still may not be able to escape...thus is life.
Thus far, I have never been unemployed, but have come close once and am keenly aware I am not immune. I am particularly aware as we have 4 children with college, cars, and all the significant expenses one may expect during this period of life. Savings remain solid, but cash reserves are quite a bit lower than it has been in the past. Some is purposeful (spent a few years maxing out mega backdoor Roth), while other is for things like making sure everyone has a car, and insurance, etc. The children make some contributions toward this as well...but the overall costs are a good amount.
As far as behaviors / actions to help stave off unemployment (besides good work) and minimize its potential impact.
* Consistently living beneath our means.
* Consistent saving since I started full time working in my 20s, increasing contributions as salary grew. At age 50, it will be difficult to be unemployed...but not nearly as bad as for those who start saving late.
* Not sticking my head up too high. I have friends and co-workers who have climbed the ladder, but eventually found themselves unemployed during times of cost cutting, organizational change, etc. They certainly had higher salaries, but some were unemployed for a year a more. I am more like the tortoise...trying to stay continuously employed and satisfied that I have "enough" as far as interesting work and compensation.
* Doing whatever is asked of me. I will gladly take on whatever needs to be done...big or small, interesting or cruddy.
* Exceptional flexibility as far as working hours if needed. Call needed in mid of night...ok for me.
* Maintaining good relationships. Sometimes it simply boils down to this.
Of course, I recognize that despite one's efforts, you still may not be able to escape...thus is life.
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
FI by 50 is the key goal in one's financial life. Afraid of being laid off sucks one's soul and life. Since I discovered bogleheads.org, I've continued following its saving and investing philosophy. It pays off handily in terms of FI and peace of mind at work.
I was laid off twice in my 20 something year career - The first one when we first had our first child, and I had to take a job 300 miles away to support while wife and kid stayed at sis-in-law house sleeping on a couch. Whenever I was back to visit, we 3 slept on a full-sized futon. The 2nd time I got laid off was good due to severance package and we were already FI. Got a job right after that with better pay and works. We say to each other that whenever we're canned, we'd take a break or retire altogether. We're in the early 50s.
In our walking distance neighborhood I know handful of folks in tech buy $3-4M house. That translate to $45-60K property tax (land rental) per year with 2% increase for the rest of the duration of their stay. $60k would translate to $90K pretax. Spending is another $60-80K on top of that. And that didn't include mortgage payment, say another $6-7K/month, that's another 75K/year. The total spending would be ~$200K/year or $300K pretax at least. It's super tough. Just post Covid, tech job was 200% secure, but after the hiring peak, now is super insecure. I got a call from a search company and they said they have frozen hiring except 3-4 areas. That tells me something shaky in tech.
All in all, we feel very liberating not fearing layoff as we used to be. Lately, I tell kids in the 20s to open Roth IRA or brokerage account and tug 1/3 of their salary into SP500. Both offspring are doing so happily.
I was laid off twice in my 20 something year career - The first one when we first had our first child, and I had to take a job 300 miles away to support while wife and kid stayed at sis-in-law house sleeping on a couch. Whenever I was back to visit, we 3 slept on a full-sized futon. The 2nd time I got laid off was good due to severance package and we were already FI. Got a job right after that with better pay and works. We say to each other that whenever we're canned, we'd take a break or retire altogether. We're in the early 50s.
In our walking distance neighborhood I know handful of folks in tech buy $3-4M house. That translate to $45-60K property tax (land rental) per year with 2% increase for the rest of the duration of their stay. $60k would translate to $90K pretax. Spending is another $60-80K on top of that. And that didn't include mortgage payment, say another $6-7K/month, that's another 75K/year. The total spending would be ~$200K/year or $300K pretax at least. It's super tough. Just post Covid, tech job was 200% secure, but after the hiring peak, now is super insecure. I got a call from a search company and they said they have frozen hiring except 3-4 areas. That tells me something shaky in tech.
All in all, we feel very liberating not fearing layoff as we used to be. Lately, I tell kids in the 20s to open Roth IRA or brokerage account and tug 1/3 of their salary into SP500. Both offspring are doing so happily.
-
- Posts: 328
- Joined: Sat May 16, 2020 4:37 pm
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
+1. Your comments are spot on esp this one hit me close.
"In our walking distance neighborhood I know handful of folks in tech buy $3-4M house. That translate to $45-60K property tax (land rental) per year with 2% increase for the rest of the duration of their stay. $60k would translate to $90K pretax. Spending is another $60-80K on top of that. And that didn't include mortgage payment, say another $6-7K/month, that's another 75K/year. The total spending would be ~$200K/year or $300K pretax at least. It's super tough."
"In our walking distance neighborhood I know handful of folks in tech buy $3-4M house. That translate to $45-60K property tax (land rental) per year with 2% increase for the rest of the duration of their stay. $60k would translate to $90K pretax. Spending is another $60-80K on top of that. And that didn't include mortgage payment, say another $6-7K/month, that's another 75K/year. The total spending would be ~$200K/year or $300K pretax at least. It's super tough."
-
- Posts: 4880
- Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:39 pm
Re: Losing a job in your 50's...
Great post! Peace of mind is the main thing I want. Being FI should helpGlasgow wrote: ↑Wed Jul 05, 2023 11:39 pm FI by 50 is the key goal in one's financial life. Afraid of being laid off sucks one's soul and life. Since I discovered bogleheads.org, I've continued following its saving and investing philosophy. It pays off handily in terms of FI and peace of mind at work.
I was laid off twice in my 20 something year career - The first one when we first had our first child, and I had to take a job 300 miles away to support while wife and kid stayed at sis-in-law house sleeping on a couch. Whenever I was back to visit, we 3 slept on a full-sized futon. The 2nd time I got laid off was good due to severance package and we were already FI. Got a job right after that with better pay and works. We say to each other that whenever we're canned, we'd take a break or retire altogether. We're in the early 50s.
In our walking distance neighborhood I know handful of folks in tech buy $3-4M house. That translate to $45-60K property tax (land rental) per year with 2% increase for the rest of the duration of their stay. $60k would translate to $90K pretax. Spending is another $60-80K on top of that. And that didn't include mortgage payment, say another $6-7K/month, that's another 75K/year. The total spending would be ~$200K/year or $300K pretax at least. It's super tough. Just post Covid, tech job was 200% secure, but after the hiring peak, now is super insecure. I got a call from a search company and they said they have frozen hiring except 3-4 areas. That tells me something shaky in tech.
All in all, we feel very liberating not fearing layoff as we used to be. Lately, I tell kids in the 20s to open Roth IRA or brokerage account and tug 1/3 of their salary into SP500. Both offspring are doing so happily.
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ |
“How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“