Losing a job in your 50's...

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HomerJ
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by HomerJ »

MarkRoulo wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:36 pm Besides quitting your job every five years or so I mean :-)
I highly recommend this for anyone anyway...

It's the best way to get real raises. Like 30% raises instead of Mega-Corp HR mandated 5% raises.

And keeps you sharp.

AND those first 6 months at a new job are always nice where no one knows your name yet or to call you to solve every problem... :)
"The best tools available to us are shovels, not scalpels. Don't get carried away." - vanBogle59
Normchad
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Normchad »

MarkRoulo wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:36 pm
fortunefavored wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:35 pm ... snip ...

I'd add in my experience there are ENTIRE COMPANIES of not very good/smart/highly qualified people. Some of them astoundingly large and successful. So you may be the smartest, most technical person in your company.. and still be terrible out in the real world. "In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king"

Anyone with a 10+ year tenure at a random-generic-company could be in that category and not even know it despite keeping all their "skills" up to date, being highly compensated, etc.
Any suggestion for what to do about "could be in that category and not even know it"?

Besides quitting your job every five years or so I mean :-)
1. Find somebody you respect and admire professionally, and ask them to critique you.
2. Go on job interviews and see if you get offers. If you don’t, call them up and ask them to tell you the brutal truth. Most won’t, but you might find one that will.
KlangFool
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by KlangFool »

MarkRoulo wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:36 pm
fortunefavored wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:35 pm ... snip ...

I'd add in my experience there are ENTIRE COMPANIES of not very good/smart/highly qualified people. Some of them astoundingly large and successful. So you may be the smartest, most technical person in your company.. and still be terrible out in the real world. "In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king"

Anyone with a 10+ year tenure at a random-generic-company could be in that category and not even know it despite keeping all their "skills" up to date, being highly compensated, etc.
Any suggestion for what to do about "could be in that category and not even know it"?

Besides quitting your job every five years or so I mean :-)
One possible solution is to obtain IT certification.

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fortunefavored
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by fortunefavored »

MarkRoulo wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:36 pm
fortunefavored wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:35 pm ... snip ...

I'd add in my experience there are ENTIRE COMPANIES of not very good/smart/highly qualified people. Some of them astoundingly large and successful. So you may be the smartest, most technical person in your company.. and still be terrible out in the real world. "In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king"

Anyone with a 10+ year tenure at a random-generic-company could be in that category and not even know it despite keeping all their "skills" up to date, being highly compensated, etc.
Any suggestion for what to do about "could be in that category and not even know it"?

Besides quitting your job every five years or so I mean :-)
I'd suggest interviewing externally every couple of years. Maybe you get an offer, maybe not.. but at least you know where you stand. If there is nothing to apply to.. well. that tells you something too.

It isn't always about the money - maybe you have a great pension coming, or awesome work life balance. But the only way to know is to see your value in the market.
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Tubes
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Tubes »

stoptothink wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:52 pm
fortunefavored wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:35 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:44 pm
jmw wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:29 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:04 pm
Smart engineers tend to stay smart. The rest of us end up in management.
How do you know you are actually smart? I've run into many guys who are super delusional and think they are top dog but are actually deadwood. You and your closest co-workers/direct line manager might think you are great, but the powers that be actually wish you were gone and will purge you during the next layoff. Then the "smart guy" files an age discrimination lawsuit claiming he's smart but the only flaw is being over 50.
Meh. There’s delusional deadwood at every age. The old ones might stand out a little more since most peers are no longer technical.

Given that everyone should shoot for FI by age 50 if they can I dunno what more you can do about it.

If you are 50 and not at least in a technical leadership slot you’ll have to self assess what caliber employee you really are. Generally it’s pretty obvious.

The other aspect is that if you realize by 40 that you don’t want a management slot then you better join an organization that if friendly to older individual contributors. They do exist but require effort to find and get into.
I'd add in my experience there are ENTIRE COMPANIES of not very good/smart/highly qualified people. Some of them astoundingly large and successful. So you may be the smartest, most technical person in your company.. and still be terrible out in the real world. "In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king"

Anyone with a 10+ year tenure at a random-generic-company could be in that category and not even know it despite keeping all their "skills" up to date, being highly compensated, etc.
You just described my wife's employer; smaller (~800 employee) IT data security company. My wife came in at 30, with zero experience or education and outproduced everybody (while simultaneously being a full-time student). They think she's some sort of savant. Every time I meet another executive my mind is blown how the company got established let alone has stayed in business for nearly 20yrs. She would have left long ago, but having a decent paying job (with amazing benefits) that you can do in your sleep in <20hrs/week made it possible for her to finish school, spend 10-15hrs/week training for her sport, and still be a mom to two young kids.
That's probably me. I was fine at Megacorp, did well, regarded well. Never was on a layoff list. The time came that our entire division was going to be eliminated. I explored outside jobs. I learned quickly that even though I *thought* I was up to date and smart, I really wasn't. I was actually part of the collective problem going on at MC. Much of the problem at MC was that even though we tried to use the "latest and greatest," we were terrible at it and fell back on our collective crutch of old tech.

I didn't get laid off. I managed to get another job inside at MC for a few years and then retired on my own terms in my mid 50s. I clearly was not ready for outside world despite what I and my bosses thought of me. I'm happy now doing something completely different on a volunteer basis.
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CyclingDuo
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CyclingDuo »

Tubes wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:05 amThat's probably me. I was fine at Megacorp, did well, regarded well. Never was on a layoff list. The time came that our entire division was going to be eliminated. I explored outside jobs. I learned quickly that even though I *thought* I was up to date and smart, I really wasn't. I was actually part of the collective problem going on at MC. Much of the problem at MC was that even though we tried to use the "latest and greatest," we were terrible at it and fell back on our collective crutch of old tech.

I didn't get laid off. I managed to get another job inside at MC for a few years and then retired on my own terms in my mid 50s. I clearly was not ready for outside world despite what I and my bosses thought of me. I'm happy now doing something completely different on a volunteer basis.
Good to hear you are finding joy through your involvement in volunteering. :beer

I assume "retiring on your own terms" meant you had reached FI and were able to make the choice on your own to step away. I can imagine that provides a level of empowerment compared to those who face the non-voluntary retirement route (even if they are FI at the time). I guess I'm hinting at the mental health side of the experience where one might be easier to navigate in subsequent years than the other.

In a separate yet related discussion, I was reading an article last night that was talking about the Great Resignation during the months of April and May, 2021 regarding the stress and mental health pressures that have been magnified during the pandemic. I can attest to the organization I work for spending some time discussing mental health with the employees over the past few months and seeing many colleagues taking part in participating in the Great Resignation and leaving.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/business ... 54629.html

Original Great Resignation article:

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/22/what-to ... ation.html

It may be tempting to say “I quit” as the nation emerges from the Covid pandemic.

You wouldn’t be alone. Four million Americans quit their jobs in April, a record high, according to the Labor Department. More than a quarter, or 27%, plan to leave their employer as the pandemic subsides, a survey from Eagle Hill Consulting found.

It’s been coined “The Great Resignation.”

“We have more time to think about: Do I enjoy what I’m doing? Is there a way I can do something I will get more joy from?” said certified financial planner Diahann Lassus, managing principal at Peapack Private Wealth Management, based in New Providence, New Jersey.


It's an interesting tie in that is always an ongoing thing, but seems to have been magnified due to what we have all been through over the past 16-17 months. I would imaging suffering a layoff and finding subsequent employment, or a reassignment within an organization in times prior to Covid as well as in the future may also involve related elements of what those articles highlight for employees.

CyclingDuo
"Save like a pessimist, invest like an optimist." - Morgan Housel | "Pick a bushel, save a peck!" - Grandpa
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Tubes
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Tubes »

CyclingDuo wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:23 am
Tubes wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:05 amThat's probably me. I was fine at Megacorp, did well, regarded well. Never was on a layoff list. The time came that our entire division was going to be eliminated. I explored outside jobs. I learned quickly that even though I *thought* I was up to date and smart, I really wasn't. I was actually part of the collective problem going on at MC. Much of the problem at MC was that even though we tried to use the "latest and greatest," we were terrible at it and fell back on our collective crutch of old tech.

I didn't get laid off. I managed to get another job inside at MC for a few years and then retired on my own terms in my mid 50s. I clearly was not ready for outside world despite what I and my bosses thought of me. I'm happy now doing something completely different on a volunteer basis.
Good to hear you are finding joy through your involvement in volunteering. :beer

I assume "retiring on your own terms" meant you had reached FI and were able to make the choice on your own to step away. I can imagine that provides a level of empowerment compared to those who face the non-voluntary retirement route (even if they are FI at the time). I guess I'm hinting at the mental health side of the experience where one might be easier to navigate in subsequent years than the other.
Yes. Reached FI and could go at any time. I was hoping for a forced layoff with package, but after a few years, the wait wore me out. I felt my health would be better to get away instead of waiting for that. Ultimately, the pandemic forced a package by MC. Nobody saw that coming. And I'm OK with it. (Missing the package.) Those years of freedom and lower (measured!) blood pressure were worth it. I can't measure mental health, but I'll say I'm pretty darn happy compared to my last years working.
ondarvr
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by ondarvr »

At the beginning of the pandemic it forced me to figure out a retirement plan that would work even though I'd be a year or more short of full retirement age, and I had planned to work longer than that out of fear.

After sharpening the pencil it showed that I would survive on would I had, not really the way I wanted, but ok.

This freed me up and changed my mindset knowing that I would probably survive whatever employment situation I found myself in. The new mindset made working much easier knowing that I didn't really need to.
Arlington2019
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Arlington2019 »

I am currently 61 and have been working in healthcare since I was 16. I am now the director of quality and risk management at a large medical group that is part of a multi-state medical system. I was laid off twice in the past six years due to mergers/acquisitions and restructurings from low patient census. The farther up you go in the healthcare executive ladder, the fewer positions available, especially if you will not relocate. For us, relocating was not a high-priority option given that my wife has her own career and is on track to complete 30 years of teaching next year and maximize her pension. We are now in the position if that either of us lost our job today, we would just retire. We have many contemporaries in the dot com industry here in Seattle, and it is striking how few of them are still working in the area once they get over age 50.
jmw
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by jmw »

Tubes wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:05 am
stoptothink wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:52 pm
fortunefavored wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:35 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:44 pm
jmw wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:29 pm

How do you know you are actually smart? I've run into many guys who are super delusional and think they are top dog but are actually deadwood. You and your closest co-workers/direct line manager might think you are great, but the powers that be actually wish you were gone and will purge you during the next layoff. Then the "smart guy" files an age discrimination lawsuit claiming he's smart but the only flaw is being over 50.
Meh. There’s delusional deadwood at every age. The old ones might stand out a little more since most peers are no longer technical.

Given that everyone should shoot for FI by age 50 if they can I dunno what more you can do about it.

If you are 50 and not at least in a technical leadership slot you’ll have to self assess what caliber employee you really are. Generally it’s pretty obvious.

The other aspect is that if you realize by 40 that you don’t want a management slot then you better join an organization that if friendly to older individual contributors. They do exist but require effort to find and get into.
I'd add in my experience there are ENTIRE COMPANIES of not very good/smart/highly qualified people. Some of them astoundingly large and successful. So you may be the smartest, most technical person in your company.. and still be terrible out in the real world. "In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king"

Anyone with a 10+ year tenure at a random-generic-company could be in that category and not even know it despite keeping all their "skills" up to date, being highly compensated, etc.
You just described my wife's employer; smaller (~800 employee) IT data security company. My wife came in at 30, with zero experience or education and outproduced everybody (while simultaneously being a full-time student). They think she's some sort of savant. Every time I meet another executive my mind is blown how the company got established let alone has stayed in business for nearly 20yrs. She would have left long ago, but having a decent paying job (with amazing benefits) that you can do in your sleep in <20hrs/week made it possible for her to finish school, spend 10-15hrs/week training for her sport, and still be a mom to two young kids.
That's probably me. I was fine at Megacorp, did well, regarded well. Never was on a layoff list. The time came that our entire division was going to be eliminated. I explored outside jobs. I learned quickly that even though I *thought* I was up to date and smart, I really wasn't. I was actually part of the collective problem going on at MC. Much of the problem at MC was that even though we tried to use the "latest and greatest," we were terrible at it and fell back on our collective crutch of old tech.

I didn't get laid off. I managed to get another job inside at MC for a few years and then retired on my own terms in my mid 50s. I clearly was not ready for outside world despite what I and my bosses thought of me. I'm happy now doing something completely different on a volunteer basis.
From all of the comments above, it appears if you think you are a smart old guy, self attestation, reviews from any of your colleagues, and the size and scope of your home lab absolutely do not count at all. The SINGLE ONLY VALID WAY to determine whether you are top tier smart or not is to get a job offer from a FAANG or equivalent. Job offers from legacy megacorps like IBM, Oracle, Cisco, etc. don't count. Job offers from anything in-between FAANG and legacy MC means you are average, not a superstar. Your current compensation/position doesn't count. Your IT certifications don't count. Your dog's opinion of your IT master status doesn't count. I think that jives with the observation that there are almost zero age 50+ guys from the dotcom era unless they're hiding in a MegaCorp deluding themselves into thinking they're worth anything outside of the campus. At some point, the stockholders will demand change and the alleged smart guys there will be all gone. So get to FI ASAP and stop thinking you are smart unless you have a job offer from a FAANG and thought their interviews were EZPZ.
nigel_ht
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by nigel_ht »

jmw wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:57 pm
Tubes wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:05 am
stoptothink wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:52 pm
fortunefavored wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:35 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:44 pm

Meh. There’s delusional deadwood at every age. The old ones might stand out a little more since most peers are no longer technical.

Given that everyone should shoot for FI by age 50 if they can I dunno what more you can do about it.

If you are 50 and not at least in a technical leadership slot you’ll have to self assess what caliber employee you really are. Generally it’s pretty obvious.

The other aspect is that if you realize by 40 that you don’t want a management slot then you better join an organization that if friendly to older individual contributors. They do exist but require effort to find and get into.
I'd add in my experience there are ENTIRE COMPANIES of not very good/smart/highly qualified people. Some of them astoundingly large and successful. So you may be the smartest, most technical person in your company.. and still be terrible out in the real world. "In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king"

Anyone with a 10+ year tenure at a random-generic-company could be in that category and not even know it despite keeping all their "skills" up to date, being highly compensated, etc.
You just described my wife's employer; smaller (~800 employee) IT data security company. My wife came in at 30, with zero experience or education and outproduced everybody (while simultaneously being a full-time student). They think she's some sort of savant. Every time I meet another executive my mind is blown how the company got established let alone has stayed in business for nearly 20yrs. She would have left long ago, but having a decent paying job (with amazing benefits) that you can do in your sleep in <20hrs/week made it possible for her to finish school, spend 10-15hrs/week training for her sport, and still be a mom to two young kids.
That's probably me. I was fine at Megacorp, did well, regarded well. Never was on a layoff list. The time came that our entire division was going to be eliminated. I explored outside jobs. I learned quickly that even though I *thought* I was up to date and smart, I really wasn't. I was actually part of the collective problem going on at MC. Much of the problem at MC was that even though we tried to use the "latest and greatest," we were terrible at it and fell back on our collective crutch of old tech.

I didn't get laid off. I managed to get another job inside at MC for a few years and then retired on my own terms in my mid 50s. I clearly was not ready for outside world despite what I and my bosses thought of me. I'm happy now doing something completely different on a volunteer basis.
From all of the comments above, it appears if you think you are a smart old guy, self attestation, reviews from any of your colleagues, and the size and scope of your home lab absolutely do not count at all. The SINGLE ONLY VALID WAY to determine whether you are top tier smart or not is to get a job offer from a FAANG or equivalent. Job offers from legacy megacorps like IBM, Oracle, Cisco, etc. don't count. Job offers from anything in-between FAANG and legacy MC means you are average, not a superstar. Your current compensation/position doesn't count. Your IT certifications don't count. Your dog's opinion of your IT master status doesn't count. I think that jives with the observation that there are almost zero age 50+ guys from the dotcom era unless they're hiding in a MegaCorp deluding themselves into thinking they're worth anything outside of the campus. At some point, the stockholders will demand change and the alleged smart guys there will be all gone. So get to FI ASAP and stop thinking you are smart unless you have a job offer from a FAANG and thought their interviews were EZPZ.
FAANG is overrated. Most folks don’t do anything awe inspiring there either. A real technical badass at age 50 is on her 3rd startup about to be acquired for yet another 8 figure payday.

So meh. There’s always someone more badass than you so your “SINGLE ONLY VALID WAY” is no less nonsense than any other random litmus test.

And since most of us are FI at 50 we couldn’t care any less what your opinion of technical prowess is anyway. You have to seriously spend not to have saved at least million by then
Last edited by nigel_ht on Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jarjarM
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by jarjarM »

nigel_ht wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:03 pm
jmw wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:57 pm From all of the comments above, it appears if you think you are a smart old guy, self attestation, reviews from any of your colleagues, and the size and scope of your home lab absolutely do not count at all. The SINGLE ONLY VALID WAY to determine whether you are top tier smart or not is to get a job offer from a FAANG or equivalent. Job offers from legacy megacorps like IBM, Oracle, Cisco, etc. don't count. Job offers from anything in-between FAANG and legacy MC means you are average, not a superstar. Your current compensation/position doesn't count. Your IT certifications don't count. Your dog's opinion of your IT master status doesn't count. I think that jives with the observation that there are almost zero age 50+ guys from the dotcom era unless they're hiding in a MegaCorp deluding themselves into thinking they're worth anything outside of the campus. At some point, the stockholders will demand change and the alleged smart guys there will be all gone. So get to FI ASAP and stop thinking you are smart unless you have a job offer from a FAANG and thought their interviews were EZPZ.
FAANG is overrated. Most folks don’t do anything awe inspiring there either. A real technical badass at age 50 is on her 3rd startup about to be acquired for yet another 8 figure payday.

So meh. There’s always someone more badass than you so your “SINGLE ONLY VALID WAY” is no less nonsense than any other random litmus test.

And since most of us are FI at 50 we couldn’t care any less what your opinion of technical prowess anyway. You have to seriously spend not to have saved at least million by then
Agree, FAANG is overrated. I have several friends who work in FAANG as the tool guy or just a small product PM guy. They're just regular joes that may happen to know someone in a position to hire. FAANG offer definitely SHOULD NOT be a measure of one's ability or top tier smarts. The super starts usually is off doing their own things, cofounding startups, or be a chief architect for the critical product of the team. Just my 2 cents after living among FAANG guys/gals for too long. :twisted:
fortunefavored
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by fortunefavored »

jarjarM wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:10 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:03 pm
jmw wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:57 pm From all of the comments above, it appears if you think you are a smart old guy, self attestation, reviews from any of your colleagues, and the size and scope of your home lab absolutely do not count at all. The SINGLE ONLY VALID WAY to determine whether you are top tier smart or not is to get a job offer from a FAANG or equivalent. Job offers from legacy megacorps like IBM, Oracle, Cisco, etc. don't count. Job offers from anything in-between FAANG and legacy MC means you are average, not a superstar. Your current compensation/position doesn't count. Your IT certifications don't count. Your dog's opinion of your IT master status doesn't count. I think that jives with the observation that there are almost zero age 50+ guys from the dotcom era unless they're hiding in a MegaCorp deluding themselves into thinking they're worth anything outside of the campus. At some point, the stockholders will demand change and the alleged smart guys there will be all gone. So get to FI ASAP and stop thinking you are smart unless you have a job offer from a FAANG and thought their interviews were EZPZ.
FAANG is overrated. Most folks don’t do anything awe inspiring there either. A real technical badass at age 50 is on her 3rd startup about to be acquired for yet another 8 figure payday.

So meh. There’s always someone more badass than you so your “SINGLE ONLY VALID WAY” is no less nonsense than any other random litmus test.

And since most of us are FI at 50 we couldn’t care any less what your opinion of technical prowess anyway. You have to seriously spend not to have saved at least million by then
Agree, FAANG is overrated. I have several friends who work in FAANG as the tool guy or just a small product PM guy. They're just regular joes that may happen to know someone in a position to hire. FAANG offer definitely SHOULD NOT be a measure of one's ability or top tier smarts. The super starts usually is off doing their own things, cofounding startups, or be a chief architect for the critical product of the team. Just my 2 cents after living among FAANG guys/gals for too long. :twisted:
Agreed this is the wrong bar.. but the correct bar is, "Can I get a comparable job in my preferred geography?" - and you won't know if you don't interview every couple of years. What counts is if you can get a job, any job that meets your needs. There could be reasons other than talent, even - for example, industry dried up where you live. At least you can start planning around that.

This advice isn't aimed at superstars turning over startups.. that's a whole different tier of people. But for your "average" person working at an "average" company for 10+ years getting solid reviews that feels real secure. The market sets your value, not your current company.
jmw
Posts: 328
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by jmw »

fortunefavored wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:44 pm
jarjarM wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:10 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:03 pm
jmw wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:57 pm From all of the comments above, it appears if you think you are a smart old guy, self attestation, reviews from any of your colleagues, and the size and scope of your home lab absolutely do not count at all. The SINGLE ONLY VALID WAY to determine whether you are top tier smart or not is to get a job offer from a FAANG or equivalent. Job offers from legacy megacorps like IBM, Oracle, Cisco, etc. don't count. Job offers from anything in-between FAANG and legacy MC means you are average, not a superstar. Your current compensation/position doesn't count. Your IT certifications don't count. Your dog's opinion of your IT master status doesn't count. I think that jives with the observation that there are almost zero age 50+ guys from the dotcom era unless they're hiding in a MegaCorp deluding themselves into thinking they're worth anything outside of the campus. At some point, the stockholders will demand change and the alleged smart guys there will be all gone. So get to FI ASAP and stop thinking you are smart unless you have a job offer from a FAANG and thought their interviews were EZPZ.
FAANG is overrated. Most folks don’t do anything awe inspiring there either. A real technical badass at age 50 is on her 3rd startup about to be acquired for yet another 8 figure payday.

So meh. There’s always someone more badass than you so your “SINGLE ONLY VALID WAY” is no less nonsense than any other random litmus test.

And since most of us are FI at 50 we couldn’t care any less what your opinion of technical prowess anyway. You have to seriously spend not to have saved at least million by then
Agree, FAANG is overrated. I have several friends who work in FAANG as the tool guy or just a small product PM guy. They're just regular joes that may happen to know someone in a position to hire. FAANG offer definitely SHOULD NOT be a measure of one's ability or top tier smarts. The super starts usually is off doing their own things, cofounding startups, or be a chief architect for the critical product of the team. Just my 2 cents after living among FAANG guys/gals for too long. :twisted:
Agreed this is the wrong bar.. but the correct bar is, "Can I get a comparable job in my preferred geography?" - and you won't know if you don't interview every couple of years. What counts is if you can get a job, any job that meets your needs. There could be reasons other than talent, even - for example, industry dried up where you live. At least you can start planning around that.

This advice isn't aimed at superstars turning over startups.. that's a whole different tier of people. But for your "average" person working at an "average" company for 10+ years getting solid reviews that feels real secure. The market sets your value, not your current company.
I don't think lowering the bar to average is safe for a 50 year old, mostly because the 50yr old valuation is way more unstable imho.

I know a guy who was quite good in 2016 and could get a job anywhere. He went to work for government and spends a lot of time on legacy against his will. In 2021, he admits he's unemployable in the regular IT job market. So he went from IT master to deadwood in just five years. It doesn't take long to go from top tier to bottom tier. Five short years is enough. I would say interviewing every couple of years isn't frequent enough unless it's less than 3 years. If average is good enough, why are a lot of the 30-something dotcom folks I know gone from IT careers? If average is good enough, why are almost all of their linkedin something nothing to do with IT today? One of them used to do dotcom era fintech as an IT architect and now bakes cookies for a living. I would also admit keeping up is a time sink and frankly I'm tired of it when I used to be excited about new tech 10 years ago.
jarjarM
Posts: 2502
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:21 pm

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by jarjarM »

jmw wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:47 pm I don't think lowering the bar to average is safe for a 50 year old, mostly because the 50yr old valuation is way more unstable imho.

I know a guy who was quite good in 2016 and could get a job anywhere. He went to work for government and spends a lot of time on legacy against his will. In 2021, he admits he's unemployable in the regular IT job market. So he went from IT master to deadwood in just five years. It doesn't take long to go from top tier to bottom tier. Five short years is enough. I would say interviewing every couple of years isn't frequent enough unless it's less than 3 years. If average is good enough, why are a lot of the 30-something dotcom folks I know gone from IT careers? If average is good enough, why are almost all of their linkedin something nothing to do with IT today? One of them used to do dotcom era fintech as an IT architect and now bakes cookies for a living. I would also admit keeping up is a time sink and frankly I'm tired of it when I used to be excited about new tech 10 years ago.
This is why it was always my goal to be FI before 50. Having the ability to walk away w/o worry about paying the bill is very motivational.
fortunefavored
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by fortunefavored »

jarjarM wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:51 pm
jmw wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:47 pm I don't think lowering the bar to average is safe for a 50 year old, mostly because the 50yr old valuation is way more unstable imho.

I know a guy who was quite good in 2016 and could get a job anywhere. He went to work for government and spends a lot of time on legacy against his will. In 2021, he admits he's unemployable in the regular IT job market. So he went from IT master to deadwood in just five years. It doesn't take long to go from top tier to bottom tier. Five short years is enough. I would say interviewing every couple of years isn't frequent enough unless it's less than 3 years. If average is good enough, why are a lot of the 30-something dotcom folks I know gone from IT careers? If average is good enough, why are almost all of their linkedin something nothing to do with IT today? One of them used to do dotcom era fintech as an IT architect and now bakes cookies for a living. I would also admit keeping up is a time sink and frankly I'm tired of it when I used to be excited about new tech 10 years ago.
This is why it was always my goal to be FI before 50. Having the ability to walk away w/o worry about paying the bill is very motivational.
Because most people are average. You don't need to run faster than the bear, just faster than the person behind you. :)

And yes, I would say every 2-3 years maximum to check your market value.

(Full disclosure: I retired in my late 40s this year because staying on that treadmill is awful! But I might as well reply while my job market knowledge is fresh.. I imagine in 5 years, that will ALSO be useless!)
nigel_ht
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by nigel_ht »

jmw wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:47 pm
I don't think lowering the bar to average is safe for a 50 year old, mostly because the 50yr old valuation is way more unstable imho.

I know a guy who was quite good in 2016 and could get a job anywhere. He went to work for government and spends a lot of time on legacy against his will. In 2021, he admits he's unemployable in the regular IT job market. So he went from IT master to deadwood in just five years. It doesn't take long to go from top tier to bottom tier. Five short years is enough.
That’s only true for him if he makes it that way.

Someone good will make GS15 and CISO, do that for a couple years and get a CIO slot somewhere back in private industry.

Maybe my definition of “quite good” differs from yours but late 40s early 50 is the age to make this kind of play.
TimeTheMarket
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by TimeTheMarket »

Arlington2019 wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:46 pm I am currently 61 and have been working in healthcare since I was 16. I am now the director of quality and risk management at a large medical group that is part of a multi-state medical system. I was laid off twice in the past six years due to mergers/acquisitions and restructurings from low patient census. The farther up you go in the healthcare executive ladder, the fewer positions available, especially if you will not relocate. For us, relocating was not a high-priority option given that my wife has her own career and is on track to complete 30 years of teaching next year and maximize her pension. We are now in the position if that either of us lost our job today, we would just retire. We have many contemporaries in the dot com industry here in Seattle, and it is striking how few of them are still working in the area once they get over age 50.
We are dealing with this. My wife is so far up in her hospital system that there are literally no jobs available for her—and she wants a new job desperately. We would move to a larger city (she could get a job all day long in most cities), but we’ve kids in high school and really do not want to upend them.

I’m in IT and the concept of doing so well that job opportunities shrink is foreign to me.
Username is not serious :)
PA_Boglehead
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by PA_Boglehead »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:54 am Folks,

I am back to work after someone made me an offer that I cannot refuse.

Please join my thread if you want to know more details:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=353587
<<Working after Financial Independence>>

KlangFool

Congrats KlangFool that's great news!
KlangFool
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by KlangFool »

PA_Boglehead wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:42 am
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:54 am Folks,

I am back to work after someone made me an offer that I cannot refuse.

Please join my thread if you want to know more details:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=353587
<<Working after Financial Independence>>

KlangFool

Congrats KlangFool that's great news!
Thanks.

KlangFool
30% VWENX | 16% VFWAX/VTIAX | 14.5% VTSAX | 19.5% VBTLX | 10% VSIAX/VTMSX/VSMAX | 10% VSIGX| 30% Wellington 50% 3-funds 20% Mini-Larry
TimeTheMarket
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by TimeTheMarket »

jmw wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:47 pm
fortunefavored wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:44 pm
jarjarM wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:10 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:03 pm
jmw wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:57 pm From all of the comments above, it appears if you think you are a smart old guy, self attestation, reviews from any of your colleagues, and the size and scope of your home lab absolutely do not count at all. The SINGLE ONLY VALID WAY to determine whether you are top tier smart or not is to get a job offer from a FAANG or equivalent. Job offers from legacy megacorps like IBM, Oracle, Cisco, etc. don't count. Job offers from anything in-between FAANG and legacy MC means you are average, not a superstar. Your current compensation/position doesn't count. Your IT certifications don't count. Your dog's opinion of your IT master status doesn't count. I think that jives with the observation that there are almost zero age 50+ guys from the dotcom era unless they're hiding in a MegaCorp deluding themselves into thinking they're worth anything outside of the campus. At some point, the stockholders will demand change and the alleged smart guys there will be all gone. So get to FI ASAP and stop thinking you are smart unless you have a job offer from a FAANG and thought their interviews were EZPZ.
FAANG is overrated. Most folks don’t do anything awe inspiring there either. A real technical badass at age 50 is on her 3rd startup about to be acquired for yet another 8 figure payday.

So meh. There’s always someone more badass than you so your “SINGLE ONLY VALID WAY” is no less nonsense than any other random litmus test.

And since most of us are FI at 50 we couldn’t care any less what your opinion of technical prowess anyway. You have to seriously spend not to have saved at least million by then
Agree, FAANG is overrated. I have several friends who work in FAANG as the tool guy or just a small product PM guy. They're just regular joes that may happen to know someone in a position to hire. FAANG offer definitely SHOULD NOT be a measure of one's ability or top tier smarts. The super starts usually is off doing their own things, cofounding startups, or be a chief architect for the critical product of the team. Just my 2 cents after living among FAANG guys/gals for too long. :twisted:
Agreed this is the wrong bar.. but the correct bar is, "Can I get a comparable job in my preferred geography?" - and you won't know if you don't interview every couple of years. What counts is if you can get a job, any job that meets your needs. There could be reasons other than talent, even - for example, industry dried up where you live. At least you can start planning around that.

This advice isn't aimed at superstars turning over startups.. that's a whole different tier of people. But for your "average" person working at an "average" company for 10+ years getting solid reviews that feels real secure. The market sets your value, not your current company.
I don't think lowering the bar to average is safe for a 50 year old, mostly because the 50yr old valuation is way more unstable imho.

I know a guy who was quite good in 2016 and could get a job anywhere. He went to work for government and spends a lot of time on legacy against his will. In 2021, he admits he's unemployable in the regular IT job market. So he went from IT master to deadwood in just five years. It doesn't take long to go from top tier to bottom tier. Five short years is enough. I would say interviewing every couple of years isn't frequent enough unless it's less than 3 years. If average is good enough, why are a lot of the 30-something dotcom folks I know gone from IT careers? If average is good enough, why are almost all of their linkedin something nothing to do with IT today? One of them used to do dotcom era fintech as an IT architect and now bakes cookies for a living. I would also admit keeping up is a time sink and frankly I'm tired of it when I used to be excited about new tech 10 years ago.
It's evident to me you don't operate in the same circles as many here. I am at a megacorp and we have a ton of 50+ people in IT (as individual contributors). I can think of two that I worked with who voluntarily retired at 59 and 62, both of whom were technically irrelevant. Their skillset was hilariously old and although we still actually needed some of that skillset, when they left we didn't have to replace them because they did so little real work. One was also exceptionally incompetent. Honest to God the typical person could do in an hour what it took him 8 to do (if not more). Nonetheless, he maintained a decent wage until he decided he would leave after 20+ years with the company.

I think you're failing to appreciate that an average, nothing-special person does not have to compete with a principal engineer at google. The IT industry is huge. There is in fact a lot of room for people who are not that amazing. I have seen some of the people you describe and I work with one guy who's just a SQL DBA now and not much else and he's late 50's and I know he's just trying to hang on a couple more years.

Your advice is good but on the whole I think it's overly negative about the job picture for people in their 50's in tech.

It looks like everybody here does agree that gaining FI early is super important. And this is important to me because I do not want to be the paunchy grey haired 55 year old being interviewed by a 30 year old for an IT position, either. In my 20's I worked at a consulting firm consisting almost entirely of people my age. We had a guy in his 50's hired once and he was this chubby dude with a polo shirt whose grey hair stuck out the top of it and I do recall thinking how utterly out of place he was. I'm not sure he lasted long at my company, but this country still has tons of 50+ people working in IT.
Username is not serious :)
Colorado14
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Location: Colorado

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Colorado14 »

TimeTheMarket mentioned something that may not have yet been discussed in this thread: appearance. The reference to 55-year old chubby grey haired guy made me think of a 75-year old.

Staying fit and dressing less like an older person (while not looking ridiculous trying to dress like a teenager) can help counteract the belief that 50+ is dead wood. You may think that appearances don't matter; unconscious bias studies suggest otherwise. And this may differ by organization or industry, so I'm curious what your experience suggests.

Although there are likely exceptions, looking healthy (and being healthy) can be a plus in keeping a job or obtaining a new one. Age discrimination isn't just related to skillset but to perceptions of health/energy/enthusiasm.
mtmingus
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by mtmingus »

Colorado13 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:44 am TimeTheMarket mentioned something that may not have yet been discussed in this thread: appearance. The reference to 55-year old chubby grey haired guy made me think of a 75-year old.
Now I appreciate even more of my WFH job!
brianH
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by brianH »

TimeTheMarket wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:22 am I think you're failing to appreciate that an average, nothing-special person does not have to compete with a principal engineer at google. The IT industry is huge. There is in fact a lot of room for people who are not that amazing. I have seen some of the people you describe and I work with one guy who's just a SQL DBA now and not much else and he's late 50's and I know he's just trying to hang on a couple more years.

Your advice is good but on the whole I think it's overly negative about the job picture for people in their 50's in tech.
Well said.

My mid-sized financial firm has a bunch of 50+ (and 60+) IT workers. Almost all of them have carved out a niche supporting legacy software, and are as curmudgeonly and uninvolved as the typical stereotype. None are making the half-million salaries common at the tech giants, but I have no doubt they make a decent living in a MCOL area. Far from being pushed out the door; the company has hired some back as consultants after their voluntary retirement.

There are far more IT jobs out there than there are applicants, and I only see this getting worse as more and more orgs become reliant on their technology department and all the bespoke software written in-house over the last 2 decades. The graybeard IT worker probably will face age discrimination vying for the hip startup job with all the 25 year-olds, but there's no doubt something out there if they have even a small amount of competency.
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monkey_business
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by monkey_business »

jmw wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:57 pm From all of the comments above, it appears if you think you are a smart old guy, self attestation, reviews from any of your colleagues, and the size and scope of your home lab absolutely do not count at all. The SINGLE ONLY VALID WAY to determine whether you are top tier smart or not is to get a job offer from a FAANG or equivalent. Job offers from legacy megacorps like IBM, Oracle, Cisco, etc. don't count. Job offers from anything in-between FAANG and legacy MC means you are average, not a superstar. Your current compensation/position doesn't count. Your IT certifications don't count. Your dog's opinion of your IT master status doesn't count. I think that jives with the observation that there are almost zero age 50+ guys from the dotcom era unless they're hiding in a MegaCorp deluding themselves into thinking they're worth anything outside of the campus. At some point, the stockholders will demand change and the alleged smart guys there will be all gone. So get to FI ASAP and stop thinking you are smart unless you have a job offer from a FAANG and thought their interviews were EZPZ.
Getting an offer from a FAANG company for the vast majority is about two things:

1. How much time you have spent preparing for the job interview by practicing questions on sites like LeetCode.
2. How good you are at answering questions from part 1 during an in-person interview.

The interview process at the FAANGs has long been a point of contention in the industry, as it seems to be quite unique in that it focuses on being good at a specific type of interviewing (data structure and algorithm trivia, mostly) more than being good at the actual job. For those not in the field for whom this might not make much sense, consider this analogy for the medical field:

Imagine you are a cardiologist. You have been working in the field for a while, and decide you would like to apply for a new job at the hot new cardiology center in town. You go in for the interview, and the interview consists of you meeting other cardiologists from the center, in a room, 1-on-1, with a whiteboard in it. Each one, after a bit of chit-chat, asks you to use the whiteboard to draw molecular compositions of various drugs, organic chemistry compounds, etc., and barely asks you anything about your current cardiology work, or how well your current cardiology skill-set will match their needs at the center. Essentially, the interview will focus on grilling you about random pre-med and background science knowledge, and will barely talk about the thing you're applying to do: cardiology.

That's essentially FAANG interviewing in a nutshell. There are literally books written on how to do well on these types of interviews, with specific problems they ask.
HermosaSurfer
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by HermosaSurfer »

I'm a FI person in his 50s who went from MegaCorp to FAANG and my story seems relevant to the thread. While retirement seems pretty cool, we don't have any friends that are retired and our hobbies are not that time consuming. I volunteer and enjoy it, but it's not as fulfilling (to me) as challenging work. I explored teaching at the community college. It may eventually be my off-ramp, but community college enrollment and hiring has been down since the pandemic.

The MegaCorp job was okay, but there was a lot of negative energy coming from the top and I lost confidence in management's leadership. Viewing interviewing as a job, I spent 8 weeks networking, reading, researching and preparing. After getting the job, I poured myself into learning and developing new skills. The FAANG cultures are not homogeneous, but the labor pool is smart and driven. I like working with these people. Although I don't publicize I'm working for fun it shows up in my behavior. I'm more relaxed, open, and honest than I was in my earlier years.

While I respect people who want to stop working, I don't think it's the only option. For my FI Boglehead friends who lost their jobs, I wish you a happy retirement. If you lost your job and are not yet FI, the Boglehead principles still apply. Find work and manage your expenses. It will all work out.
HermosaSurfer
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by HermosaSurfer »

That's essentially FAANG interviewing in a nutshell. There are literally books written on how to do well on these types of interviews, with specific problems they ask.
Correct. Setting the validity of the system aside, the system can be discovered with a modest effort and an applicant can plan and rehearse responses.
tedgeorge
Posts: 152
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by tedgeorge »

I'm in IT and seeing a lot of co-workers retire who are in their 50s. I think the long days on Zoom and working from home knocked a few years off their retirement date. I know I'd consider it if I were in their shoes. I don't see the good old office environment returning for a long time, if ever. I'm no fan of the cube but it was way better than looking forward to hoteling or hot-desking as a new norm.

We will miss them in my megacorp for all their institutional knowledge that never made it into documentation. Band aids and duct tape everywhere holding it together when upper management decided not to invest to fix problems. It does give me hope that I can hold on in the right company!
lurkman
Posts: 118
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by lurkman »

jmw wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:57 pm
From all of the comments above, it appears if you think you are a smart old guy, self attestation, reviews from any of your colleagues, and the size and scope of your home lab absolutely do not count at all. The SINGLE ONLY VALID WAY to determine whether you are top tier smart or not is to get a job offer from a FAANG or equivalent. Job offers from legacy megacorps like IBM, Oracle, Cisco, etc. don't count. Job offers from anything in-between FAANG and legacy MC means you are average, not a superstar. Your current compensation/position doesn't count. Your IT certifications don't count. Your dog's opinion of your IT master status doesn't count. I think that jives with the observation that there are almost zero age 50+ guys from the dotcom era unless they're hiding in a MegaCorp deluding themselves into thinking they're worth anything outside of the campus. At some point, the stockholders will demand change and the alleged smart guys there will be all gone. So get to FI ASAP and stop thinking you are smart unless you have a job offer from a FAANG and thought their interviews were EZPZ.
I hate to break it to the young ‘superstars’ that youth is temporary. No exceptions.

Someday it will be recognized that what passes for ‘talent’, ‘smarts’ and such is (a) brain function (which is also temporary; it may function rather well, maybe, but within applicable biological limits) and (b) learning history, what is remembered and applied.

To be proud of one’s intelligence and brain function is no different from being proud of having blue eyes that don’t need glasses or being proud of kidneys that produce excellent urine. Just a different organ involved, that’s all.

To be proud of one’s learning and one’s ‘choices’ has its limits too. You cannot ‘choose’ to speak the next three sentences in Swahili, if you’ve never learned it. Your ‘choices’ are circumscribed by what you have had the opportunity to learn. And learning depends on adequate brain function and opportunities.

So, personal superstardom is really not so personal. It’s more biological and circumstantial. (Like the success of active fund managers.)
TimeTheMarket
Posts: 290
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by TimeTheMarket »

brianH wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:58 am
TimeTheMarket wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:22 am I think you're failing to appreciate that an average, nothing-special person does not have to compete with a principal engineer at google. The IT industry is huge. There is in fact a lot of room for people who are not that amazing. I have seen some of the people you describe and I work with one guy who's just a SQL DBA now and not much else and he's late 50's and I know he's just trying to hang on a couple more years.

Your advice is good but on the whole I think it's overly negative about the job picture for people in their 50's in tech.
Well said.

My mid-sized financial firm has a bunch of 50+ (and 60+) IT workers. Almost all of them have carved out a niche supporting legacy software, and are as curmudgeonly and uninvolved as the typical stereotype. None are making the half-million salaries common at the tech giants, but I have no doubt they make a decent living in a MCOL area. Far from being pushed out the door; the company has hired some back as consultants after their voluntary retirement.

There are far more IT jobs out there than there are applicants, and I only see this getting worse as more and more orgs become reliant on their technology department and all the bespoke software written in-house over the last 2 decades. The graybeard IT worker probably will face age discrimination vying for the hip startup job with all the 25 year-olds, but there's no doubt something out there if they have even a small amount of competency.
You describe my company well. We have some rising stars but we have a lot of older people supporting legacy stuff and nobody is going to push them out the door. Although finding a job with some of these skills is difficult if you are kicked out, we've profitable business units that in many cases run on old stuff and as long as that stuff keeps working they've no inclination to replace it.

I've seen very profitable sites running on ERPs that rely on very old tech and as long as they can still find people to support it they are not going to get rid of it. The business literally comes to a standstill without it, and transitioning to a more modern platform would be a multi-year, multi-million dollar effort.
Colorado13 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:44 am TimeTheMarket mentioned something that may not have yet been discussed in this thread: appearance. The reference to 55-year old chubby grey haired guy made me think of a 75-year old.

Staying fit and dressing less like an older person (while not looking ridiculous trying to dress like a teenager) can help counteract the belief that 50+ is dead wood. You may think that appearances don't matter; unconscious bias studies suggest otherwise. And this may differ by organization or industry, so I'm curious what your experience suggests.

Although there are likely exceptions, looking healthy (and being healthy) can be a plus in keeping a job or obtaining a new one. Age discrimination isn't just related to skillset but to perceptions of health/energy/enthusiasm.
I absolutely agree with this!
Last edited by TimeTheMarket on Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Username is not serious :)
sailaway
Posts: 8188
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 1:11 pm

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by sailaway »

TimeTheMarket wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:35 pm
brianH wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:58 am
TimeTheMarket wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:22 am I think you're failing to appreciate that an average, nothing-special person does not have to compete with a principal engineer at google. The IT industry is huge. There is in fact a lot of room for people who are not that amazing. I have seen some of the people you describe and I work with one guy who's just a SQL DBA now and not much else and he's late 50's and I know he's just trying to hang on a couple more years.

Your advice is good but on the whole I think it's overly negative about the job picture for people in their 50's in tech.
Well said.

My mid-sized financial firm has a bunch of 50+ (and 60+) IT workers. Almost all of them have carved out a niche supporting legacy software, and are as curmudgeonly and uninvolved as the typical stereotype. None are making the half-million salaries common at the tech giants, but I have no doubt they make a decent living in a MCOL area. Far from being pushed out the door; the company has hired some back as consultants after their voluntary retirement.

There are far more IT jobs out there than there are applicants, and I only see this getting worse as more and more orgs become reliant on their technology department and all the bespoke software written in-house over the last 2 decades. The graybeard IT worker probably will face age discrimination vying for the hip startup job with all the 25 year-olds, but there's no doubt something out there if they have even a small amount of competency.
You describe my company well. We have some rising stars but we have a lot of older people supporting legacy stuff and nobody is going to push them out the door. Although finding a job with some of these skills is difficult if you are kicked out, we've profitable business units that in many cases run on old stuff and as long as that stuff keeps working they've no inclination to replace it.

I've seen very profitable sites running on ERPs that rely on very old tech and as long as they can still find people to support it they are not going to get rid of it. The business literally comes to a standstill without it, and transitioning to a more modern platform would be a multi-year, multi-million dollar effort.
My brother has the best job security he has had in his life right now because the younger IT folks won't stay on to deal with the ancient system.
TimeTheMarket
Posts: 290
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:49 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by TimeTheMarket »

sailaway wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:38 pm
TimeTheMarket wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:35 pm
brianH wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:58 am
TimeTheMarket wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:22 am I think you're failing to appreciate that an average, nothing-special person does not have to compete with a principal engineer at google. The IT industry is huge. There is in fact a lot of room for people who are not that amazing. I have seen some of the people you describe and I work with one guy who's just a SQL DBA now and not much else and he's late 50's and I know he's just trying to hang on a couple more years.

Your advice is good but on the whole I think it's overly negative about the job picture for people in their 50's in tech.
Well said.

My mid-sized financial firm has a bunch of 50+ (and 60+) IT workers. Almost all of them have carved out a niche supporting legacy software, and are as curmudgeonly and uninvolved as the typical stereotype. None are making the half-million salaries common at the tech giants, but I have no doubt they make a decent living in a MCOL area. Far from being pushed out the door; the company has hired some back as consultants after their voluntary retirement.

There are far more IT jobs out there than there are applicants, and I only see this getting worse as more and more orgs become reliant on their technology department and all the bespoke software written in-house over the last 2 decades. The graybeard IT worker probably will face age discrimination vying for the hip startup job with all the 25 year-olds, but there's no doubt something out there if they have even a small amount of competency.
You describe my company well. We have some rising stars but we have a lot of older people supporting legacy stuff and nobody is going to push them out the door. Although finding a job with some of these skills is difficult if you are kicked out, we've profitable business units that in many cases run on old stuff and as long as that stuff keeps working they've no inclination to replace it.

I've seen very profitable sites running on ERPs that rely on very old tech and as long as they can still find people to support it they are not going to get rid of it. The business literally comes to a standstill without it, and transitioning to a more modern platform would be a multi-year, multi-million dollar effort.
My brother has the best job security he has had in his life right now because the younger IT folks won't stay on to deal with the ancient system.
I had a brief thought...I wonder if the riskiest thing for a person in their 50's in tech is to try to embrace new technology but not be very good at it. You are competing with younger people directly, whereas how many people are learning about the AS400 these days? BTW that's what the old guys I mentioned worked in. Every day the green screen popped up on their screen like it was 1991.
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NESF
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by NESF »

Wow, great thread! Thanks to OP for kicking this off. It helps that it squarely applies to me.

I created two camps in my head as I was reading: a) stay up to date, b) go into mgmt., relish in your niche, get out of tech., etc.

I've taken option B. Not entirely by choice. I was super focused on my career until late 40's. Then, we had a health scare with DD. This changed my outlook entirely. I quickly shifted from the left lane to the right lane and dropped from 5th gear to 3rd. It didn't take long before I felt outdated and vulnerable (<3yrs.). I couldn't keep up and focus on family. My heart just wasn't in the game anymore.

I try to show my worth, but honestly don't know if it will be good enough. I still need to work ten more years. I wouldn't change anything; my time with the family during the pandemic has been awesome.

Point being: Only you can decide if you want to "keep up", or raise your head up from your three monitors and look around.

One man's journey!
fortunefavored
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by fortunefavored »

TimeTheMarket wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:42 pm
sailaway wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:38 pm
TimeTheMarket wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:35 pm
brianH wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:58 am
TimeTheMarket wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:22 am I think you're failing to appreciate that an average, nothing-special person does not have to compete with a principal engineer at google. The IT industry is huge. There is in fact a lot of room for people who are not that amazing. I have seen some of the people you describe and I work with one guy who's just a SQL DBA now and not much else and he's late 50's and I know he's just trying to hang on a couple more years.

Your advice is good but on the whole I think it's overly negative about the job picture for people in their 50's in tech.
Well said.

My mid-sized financial firm has a bunch of 50+ (and 60+) IT workers. Almost all of them have carved out a niche supporting legacy software, and are as curmudgeonly and uninvolved as the typical stereotype. None are making the half-million salaries common at the tech giants, but I have no doubt they make a decent living in a MCOL area. Far from being pushed out the door; the company has hired some back as consultants after their voluntary retirement.

There are far more IT jobs out there than there are applicants, and I only see this getting worse as more and more orgs become reliant on their technology department and all the bespoke software written in-house over the last 2 decades. The graybeard IT worker probably will face age discrimination vying for the hip startup job with all the 25 year-olds, but there's no doubt something out there if they have even a small amount of competency.
You describe my company well. We have some rising stars but we have a lot of older people supporting legacy stuff and nobody is going to push them out the door. Although finding a job with some of these skills is difficult if you are kicked out, we've profitable business units that in many cases run on old stuff and as long as that stuff keeps working they've no inclination to replace it.

I've seen very profitable sites running on ERPs that rely on very old tech and as long as they can still find people to support it they are not going to get rid of it. The business literally comes to a standstill without it, and transitioning to a more modern platform would be a multi-year, multi-million dollar effort.
My brother has the best job security he has had in his life right now because the younger IT folks won't stay on to deal with the ancient system.
I had a brief thought...I wonder if the riskiest thing for a person in their 50's in tech is to try to embrace new technology but not be very good at it. You are competing with younger people directly, whereas how many people are learning about the AS400 these days? BTW that's what the old guys I mentioned worked in. Every day the green screen popped up on their screen like it was 1991.
I think there's a lot of "missing the forest for the trees" in some of these posts. No one is doubting that there are plenty of incredibly secure legacy jobs buried in dozens/hundreds of companies that could be around for 10 or 20 years. The point of this thread is: What happens when those jobs go away through no fault of the individual? Bankruptcy, regulatory changes, massive fraud, competition.. companies go defunct every day.

So sure, if you're an AS400 expert in Topeka Kansas, your current job is probably very very secure. Until it isn't. Then what?

Maybe your plan is 'become a traveling AS400 consultant" - that's also fine, but you need to be prepared to make that happen. Find out. Don't wait until the end is nigh to have a plan "B" if you're over 50. That should be the message people take away.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Tubes »

People in legacy jobs are thrown into the meat grinder too. And saying "no" doesn't always work. It isn't just about the possibility of having a job.

There's also something about going through the same rodeo 30 times. The injuries add up.

There are ways to alleviate this and some of that has been discussed so I won't rehash.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by TimeTheMarket »

fortunefavored wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:38 pm I think there's a lot of "missing the forest for the trees" in some of these posts. No one is doubting that there are plenty of incredibly secure legacy jobs buried in dozens/hundreds of companies that could be around for 10 or 20 years. The point of this thread is: What happens when those jobs go away through no fault of the individual? Bankruptcy, regulatory changes, massive fraud, competition.. companies go defunct every day.

So sure, if you're an AS400 expert in Topeka Kansas, your current job is probably very very secure. Until it isn't. Then what?

Maybe your plan is 'become a traveling AS400 consultant" - that's also fine, but you need to be prepared to make that happen. Find out. Don't wait until the end is nigh to have a plan "B" if you're over 50. That should be the message people take away.
This is true.

I really do think keeping up to date is important--even though I don't do it as much as I should. I have seen first hand how easy it is to get in a lane (some would call it a rut) and then it's been a few years since you even learned anything new.

The biggest risk would be assuming you're going to keep a good paying job to 60 or 65 and you're not trying to front load your FI state. Being 55 and knowing you're behind on retirement and having a hard time finding work sucks, and it definitely does happen to people.
NESF wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:07 pm Wow, great thread! Thanks to OP for kicking this off. It helps that it squarely applies to me.

I created two camps in my head as I was reading: a) stay up to date, b) go into mgmt., relish in your niche, get out of tech., etc.

I've taken option B. Not entirely by choice. I was super focused on my career until late 40's. Then, we had a health scare with DD. This changed my outlook entirely. I quickly shifted from the left lane to the right lane and dropped from 5th gear to 3rd. It didn't take long before I felt outdated and vulnerable (<3yrs.). I couldn't keep up and focus on family. My heart just wasn't in the game anymore.

I try to show my worth, but honestly don't know if it will be good enough. I still need to work ten more years. I wouldn't change anything; my time with the family during the pandemic has been awesome.

Point being: Only you can decide if you want to "keep up", or raise your head up from your three monitors and look around.

One man's journey!
I'd say there are even two sides to the management approach coin. Had a coworker who's husband (early 50's) was out of work a year back in a hot IT job market. It took him a year to get a job. Certainly there are less openings at any one time for an IT manager vs a random business analyst role, for example. He got a couple of modern certs to help things along but was getting severely demoralized. The good news is they were super-savers so they were never at risk financially.
Username is not serious :)
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by international001 »

TimeTheMarket wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:42 pm
My brother has the best job security he has had in his life right now because the younger IT folks won't stay on to deal with the ancient system.
I had a brief thought...I wonder if the riskiest thing for a person in their 50's in tech is to try to embrace new technology but not be very good at it. You are competing with younger people directly, whereas how many people are learning about the AS400 these days? BTW that's what the old guys I mentioned worked in. Every day the green screen popped up on their screen like it was 1991.
[/quote]

I agree with you.
Unlike stocks, you cannot invest in all techs/jobs. In tech, you have to jump into a train that looks shinny and hope it arrives to a good destination.
And it's a travel long enough that it has to be taken where you are young.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by miket29 »

jmw wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:47 pm If average is good enough, why are a lot of the 30-something dotcom folks I know gone from IT careers? If average is good enough, why are almost all of their linkedin something nothing to do with IT today?
I can speak more to engineering than IT, but it's because after 4-7 years experience you know enough to be able to handle all the routine tasks. There can be a brilliant architect but she needs worker bees to turn the ideas into reality. So kids in their late 20's are the ideal hire. They haven't had the decades of smallish raises that add up eventually. Those in their 40's & 50's have the same skill set as those kids. Maybe a bit faster or some things, or a bit more experienced on others, but not worth 1.5x or 2x the salary. And the pipeline keeps running; when the current late 20's age out there will be a fresh crop to replace them.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by life in slices »

NESF wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:07 pm Wow, great thread! Thanks to OP for kicking this off. It helps that it squarely applies to me.

I created two camps in my head as I was reading: a) stay up to date, b) go into mgmt., relish in your niche, get out of tech., etc.

I've taken option B. Not entirely by choice. I was super focused on my career until late 40's. Then, we had a health scare with DD. This changed my outlook entirely. I quickly shifted from the left lane to the right lane and dropped from 5th gear to 3rd. It didn't take long before I felt outdated and vulnerable (<3yrs.). I couldn't keep up and focus on family. My heart just wasn't in the game anymore.

I try to show my worth, but honestly don't know if it will be good enough. I still need to work ten more years. I wouldn't change anything; my time with the family during the pandemic has been awesome.

Point being: Only you can decide if you want to "keep up", or raise your head up from your three monitors and look around.

One man's journey!
NESF - good post and great to hear your perspective - it definitely speaks to where I am today.

I ended up at the same place in my late 40s (health scare was my own) - i switched from managing a large sales team and working on moving up, back to an individual contributor role at the same company; specifically because I couldn't keep up and focus on my family the way I wanted. I guess it just hit me one day that I had missed a lot of things along the way with the family and wasn't going to gain that back - with all of them transitioning to college and grad school over the last few years, it was nice to have that time with them.

I suppose it is a bit of a risk to take my foot of the gas a little bit but the work/life balance is so much better. Now in my early-ish 50s I am probably less valuable to my company as an individual contributor, but I am happy with that risk/reward.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Tubes »

I think what did me in was elder care. I was distracted for about 8 years putting parents ahead of the job. I did say "no" quite a bit during that time. I fell behind. I just couldn't do it all. So, when my parents eventually passed, I came back to a job that I didn't have the same passion for. I had to either catch up in my skills, or think differently. I started visiting this site and the early retirement sites and focused on FI, eventually deciding retirement was the best path.

I do not regret my time spent with my parents in their last years. It was 110% worth it.

I suspect that is a factor to quite a few of us in our 50s. Many 40 and 50 somethings have "sandwich" issues of dealing with both children and parents. It is impossible to fulfill the demands some jobs want and still give all of the family the attention they deserve.
ponyboy
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by ponyboy »

I hope to "lose" my job when im in my early 50's. If im not retired by 53, I screwed up...and im only 38.

Remember, no one ever says they wished they worked more on their death bed. The more you know!
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by HermosaSurfer »

Remember, no one ever says they wished they worked more on their death bed. The more you know!
A mentor of mine volunteers at a hospice and he says that on their death bed people talk about their relationships. Those relationships include family, friends, coworkers, and neighbors. One of my favorite sources about life's purpose is Viktor Frankl, "I want you to listen to what your conscience commands you to do and go on to carry it out to the best of your knowledge." If your conscience commands you to retire by 53, so be it, but I'll suggest you determine what you will do with that time.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by thx1138 »

miket29 wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:31 pm
jmw wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:47 pm If average is good enough, why are a lot of the 30-something dotcom folks I know gone from IT careers? If average is good enough, why are almost all of their linkedin something nothing to do with IT today?
I can speak more to engineering than IT, but it's because after 4-7 years experience you know enough to be able to handle all the routine tasks. There can be a brilliant architect but she needs worker bees to turn the ideas into reality. So kids in their late 20's are the ideal hire. They haven't had the decades of smallish raises that add up eventually. Those in their 40's & 50's have the same skill set as those kids. Maybe a bit faster or some things, or a bit more experienced on others, but not worth 1.5x or 2x the salary. And the pipeline keeps running; when the current late 20's age out there will be a fresh crop to replace them.
@miket29 is hitting the nail on the head here. @jimw’s former tech workers are now baking cookies not because they are “average” or didn’t “stay current” but rather probably because they never actually developed knowledge and experience on the job that you can only get on the job.

Keeping up with young low wage workers by “staying current” is a fool’s errand since if all you have is the same knowledge they can get in school or a certification course or a couple of years experience then why on earth is someone going to pay you more money to do what they do for less?

Tying yourself to a particular company’s legacy infrastructure secures your job only to the degree the company itself is secure. That idiosyncratic knowledge is often not transferable so it doesn’t always answer the mail for this thread as folks have already given examples of.

The more certain path to security as you age is to gain transferable experience only earned in increasingly senior positions and as pointed out often that means the higher level architecture and process development or the means to execute on such. Often, but not always, that means at least some level of team management. The point is that this is not the kind of skill developed in a school or a certification program. You only get this experience by doing it and you can only do it if trusted by someone willing to risk you screwing it up. And as you succeed in not screwing up the smaller projects you are entrusted with larger or riskier ones. This forms an insurmountable barrier compared to a young low wage worker who simply has never had access to gain that experience (yet).

If you want to continue to bang out module after module in your cube without graduating to those higher level design and management tasks you are not going to have a competitive advantage against a lower wage worker over time and thus will be at risk of involuntary retirement.

If on the other hand as @miket29 says instead you are the one figuring out what modules the worker bees in the cubes are going to make (or how to validate them, or how to leverage them into something else, or how they will be integrated) that’s something the fresh faced college grad who practiced all the predictable FAANG interview questions isn’t going to be able to do. Though of course fresh faced kid better start to learn to do them and you should be helping them learn to do them while you learn to do the next thing up the ladder.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Tubes »

thx1138 wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 9:16 pm
The more certain path to security as you age is to gain transferable experience only earned in increasingly senior positions and as pointed out often that means the higher level architecture and process development or the means to execute on such. Often, but not always, that means at least some level of team management.
I won't disagree. However, there are only so many such positions. Many won't find a chair when the music stops.
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Gaining a new full-time job during the last month of your 50's to usher you into your 60's...

Post by CyclingDuo »

Fellow Bogleheads - I'm moving out of my 50's and rolling into my 60's!

As I leave my 50's, I expect one of either two things in my 60's regarding a future thread post from me. Either I will post at some point with a thread title akin to Retired in my 60's... or Losing a job in your 60's... and tie it back with a link to this thread. The latter title regards the statistics of those who lose one job, also have a 32% rate of losing another job or more down the road. I am hoping for the former, but at this point - who knows? I take it one year at a time.

I started this thread in 2019 exactly one year after news of a layoff when I was age 56. No doubt, posting has been cathartic for me. The hope was the thread and the information posted in it over the past couple of years has been useful for others who may have experienced, or may at some point experience a layoff in their 50's. Everyone has different goals regarding finances, career, longevity of human capital, legacy, charity, age of retirement, etc... . Thanks to the many who have also chimed in with their own personal situations and experiences. That has helped make this thread more universal for others.

Beyond my 2018 layoff and finding a subsequent combination of part-time jobs to seek replacement income for the past three years, a couple of things happened along the way as a result of Covid that caused many to pause, reflect and make some decisions.

One of those two things I had already alluded to upthread about Covid causing the months of April-May of 2021 to be known as The Great Resignation: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/22/what-to ... ation.html

I think that ties in relationship wise with Pete the Planner's second article regarding losing a job in your 50's when he wrote about Capitulation Retirement: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/co ... 009336002/

"Capitulation retirement is when you give up on your career, justifiably or otherwise, and decide to retire."

No doubt Covid created capitulation for many - justifiably or otherwise.

The other was the reality that the Covid fueled capitulation selloff in February - May of 2020 ended up - according to data released - with nearly 1/3rd of investors age 65 and older selling 100% of their equity holdings in 2020 :shock: , and 18% of all investors doing the same: https://reversemortgagedaily.com/2020/0 ... s-in-2020/

It is apparent that those two forms of capitulation have added a lot of stress and worry to a segment of the population. Had I experienced my original layoff from academia in 2020 instead of 2018, who knows what we would have done portfolio wise as well as career wise? My spouse and I decided not to waver and maintained our dual income household along with regular contributions to our investment accounts. I feel for all of those who may not have had a choice due to the severity of Covid and the impacts it has had on many decisions that were made.

Final wrap for my 50's...

From 2018 to the end of May 2021, I worked a combination of part-time jobs for three years which meant I was working 7 days a week to maintain the same level of household income as we were making prior to being laid off. It was a grind I accepted, but felt I was not going to be able to continue. Financially, my spouse and I saved as much as we could during the past three years. We began discussing upcoming retirement for her in 2023 and things we want to do. As a result, we are in a much better place than we were back in early 2018.

In the month of August 2021 due to all of the job openings in the economy that were available outside of my original niche, I made the decision to choose my future course and capitulate from academia work. I applied for, interviewed, and accepted a new full-time position at the technology company where I had been working part-time. I view it as a refreshing encore career with excellent benefits, positivity, challenge, and a good way to still tap my human capital as the job ushers me into my 60's via a welcome change.

Compared to the prior three years of piecing income together via multiple part-time jobs (including the wild world known as adjunct academia work), I feel I have reached the point where I am once again working because it is fun and rewarding. My spouse will retire in two years and begin her pension, and I will either stagger my retirement at some point a year or more beyond that, or call an audible when she retires and join her. In addition, now that I am back to working 5 days a week, it has also opened up the window for me to make a few thousand in extra money as a church musician, so that is nice to have going again.

At this point, we are in a much better FI position with continued focus on saving a good portion of our income so that we can meet most, if not all of our future goals which includes legacy and charity.

Here's to being more at peace with myself and a thread update wrap post that should read Gaining a new full-time job during the last month of your 50's to usher you into your 60's... :beer

CyclingDuo
"Save like a pessimist, invest like an optimist." - Morgan Housel | "Pick a bushel, save a peck!" - Grandpa
mtmingus
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by mtmingus »

Congratulations!
il0kin
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by il0kin »

CyclingDuo, great update. I am years away from my 50s, but this thread has been very valuable not just in considering the financial aspects at that life stage but also is informative in distancing our sense of self-worth from the work we do to earn money.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CobraKai »

Watty wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:41 am I can't count the numbers of other layoffs I have been through though. It will vary with the situation but one thing to keep in mind is that often the people that survive the layoff will have a worse work environment because they are expected to fill in for the people that were laid off and the there may be gaps in skills and knowledge that the laid off people had. One problem I have seen a number of times is that in a layoff the remaining staff will be cut to the bone and be able to function but then someone will be out sick or on vacation and the remaining staff will be in an even worse situation. Be cautious about envying the people that were not laid off.
And then on top of the extra headaches, you can't complain to anyone or else you get the "you're lucky to have a job" lecture.
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Re: Gaining a new full-time job during the last month of your 50's to usher you into your 60's...

Post by Zeno »

CyclingDuo wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:46 am Fellow Bogleheads - I'm moving out of my 50's and rolling into my 60's!

....

CyclingDuo
You are an inspiration, CyclingDuo. Thank you for starting this thread, and thank you for that insightful post above. I'm exceedingly happy everything has worked out for you. And happy birthday!
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Re: Gaining a new full-time job during the last month of your 50's to usher you into your 60's...

Post by Godot »

CyclingDuo wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:46 am Fellow Bogleheads - I'm moving out of my 50's and rolling into my 60's!

As I leave my 50's, I expect one of either two things in my 60's regarding a future thread post from me. Either I will post at some point with a thread title akin to Retired in my 60's... or Losing a job in your 60's... and tie it back with a link to this thread. The latter title regards the statistics of those who lose one job, also have a 32% rate of losing another job or more down the road. I am hoping for the former, but at this point - who knows? I take it one year at a time.

I started this thread in 2019 exactly one year after news of a layoff when I was age 56. No doubt, posting has been cathartic for me. The hope was the thread and the information posted in it over the past couple of years has been useful for others who may have experienced, or may at some point experience a layoff in their 50's. Everyone has different goals regarding finances, career, longevity of human capital, legacy, charity, age of retirement, etc... . Thanks to the many who have also chimed in with their own personal situations and experiences. That has helped make this thread more universal for others.

Beyond my 2018 layoff and finding a subsequent combination of part-time jobs to seek replacement income for the past three years, a couple of things happened along the way as a result of Covid that caused many to pause, reflect and make some decisions.

One of those two things I had already alluded to upthread about Covid causing the months of April-May of 2021 to be known as The Great Resignation: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/22/what-to ... ation.html

I think that ties in relationship wise with Pete the Planner's second article regarding losing a job in your 50's when he wrote about Capitulation Retirement: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/co ... 009336002/

"Capitulation retirement is when you give up on your career, justifiably or otherwise, and decide to retire."

No doubt Covid created capitulation for many - justifiably or otherwise.

The other was the reality that the Covid fueled capitulation selloff in February - May of 2020 ended up - according to data released - with nearly 1/3rd of investors age 65 and older selling 100% of their equity holdings in 2020 :shock: , and 18% of all investors doing the same: https://reversemortgagedaily.com/2020/0 ... s-in-2020/

It is apparent that those two forms of capitulation have added a lot of stress and worry to a segment of the population. Had I experienced my original layoff from academia in 2020 instead of 2018, who knows what we would have done portfolio wise as well as career wise? My spouse and I decided not to waver and maintained our dual income household along with regular contributions to our investment accounts. I feel for all of those who may not have had a choice due to the severity of Covid and the impacts it has had on many decisions that were made.

Final wrap for my 50's...

From 2018 to the end of May 2021, I worked a combination of part-time jobs for three years which meant I was working 7 days a week to maintain the same level of household income as we were making prior to being laid off. It was a grind I accepted, but felt I was not going to be able to continue. Financially, my spouse and I saved as much as we could during the past three years. We began discussing upcoming retirement for her in 2023 and things we want to do. As a result, we are in a much better place than we were back in early 2018.

In the month of August 2021 due to all of the job openings in the economy that were available outside of my original niche, I made the decision to choose my future course and capitulate from academia work. I applied for, interviewed, and accepted a new full-time position at the technology company where I had been working part-time. I view it as a refreshing encore career with excellent benefits, positivity, challenge, and a good way to still tap my human capital as the job ushers me into my 60's via a welcome change.

Compared to the prior three years of piecing income together via multiple part-time jobs (including the wild world known as adjunct academia work), I feel I have reached the point where I am once again working because it is fun and rewarding. My spouse will retire in two years and begin her pension, and I will either stagger my retirement at some point a year or more beyond that, or call an audible when she retires and join her. In addition, now that I am back to working 5 days a week, it has also opened up the window for me to make a few thousand in extra money as a church musician, so that is nice to have going again.

At this point, we are in a much better FI position with continued focus on saving a good portion of our income so that we can meet most, if not all of our future goals which includes legacy and charity.

Here's to being more at peace with myself and a thread update wrap post that should read Gaining a new full-time job during the last month of your 50's to usher you into your 60's... :beer

CyclingDuo
You are an inspiration, CyclingDuo. Thanks for sharing your story.
"The day you die is just like any other, only shorter." | ― Samuel Beckett
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