More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

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chazas
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by chazas »

Great story and I'm pretty jealous. I'm almost 60 and a Biglaw partner, though due to a bunch of twists and turns (I made an unusual practice change about a decade ago, and I also have left Biglaw partnerships twice and come back) I'm "just" a nonequity partner. And I went through a recent divorce - I'd leave today, but my assets were cut in half. About $3.5M in cash/securities, mostly in tax-deferred, and an $800K house on which I owe $550K. My future comp upside is minimal but I can keep the $600K-ish income until retirement even if I insist on work-life balance, which I'm now doing. Goals are to mostly pay off the mortgage and get the investments balance up. I've already been asked would I keep doing at least some of it after official retirement - probably not, but if the world crashes it's a backup plan.
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Riprap
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by Riprap »

Valuethinker wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:02 amWhy, you should ask yourself, do you need to take that risk?
Why are bonds less risky?

(Not a newbie question.)
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BigLaw Survivor
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by BigLaw Survivor »

Tingting1013 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:08 am
BigLaw Survivor wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:21 am
Tingting1013 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:00 am
BigLaw Survivor wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:26 am PP. I hear what you're saying. I truly do. It's just that my strategy so far -- buy and hold, and don't overspend -- has served me very well for decades and I'm loathe to change it now. Not to mention that right now we have $400,000 in cash, which is two years' living expenses for us.
$200k/yr is not overspending??
I don't think so. Not with a $7 million net worth. Certainly there is some fat involved, but I track my expenses very closely through Personal Capital and know exactly where the fat is -- so, when/if the need arises, I know how to cut back.
Please enlighten me in this thread

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=344521&newpost=5911 ... ead#unread
That thread is locked. Not sure what you want to know . . .
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BigLaw Survivor
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by BigLaw Survivor »

chazas wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:12 am Great story and I'm pretty jealous. I'm almost 60 and a Biglaw partner, though due to a bunch of twists and turns (I made an unusual practice change about a decade ago, and I also have left Biglaw partnerships twice and come back) I'm "just" a nonequity partner. And I went through a recent divorce - I'd leave today, but my assets were cut in half. About $3.5M in cash/securities, mostly in tax-deferred, and an $800K house on which I owe $550K. My future comp upside is minimal but I can keep the $600K-ish income until retirement even if I insist on work-life balance, which I'm now doing. Goals are to mostly pay off the mortgage and get the investments balance up. I've already been asked would I keep doing at least some of it after official retirement - probably not, but if the world crashes it's a backup plan.
If your portfolio is only for you I'd say you're almost there . . .
chicagoan23
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by chicagoan23 »

Valuethinker wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:02 am At this point, I would be reading that William Bernstein book (I think it was a thread here, too) "If you've won, stop playing the game" or a similar title.

I'd have half my portfolio in bonds - either TIPS bonds or 50/50 TIPS and regular US Treasury bonds, intermediate term or whole market. Municipal Bonds might be attractive for a US taxpayer, but don't assume those are absolutely safe (I would not have more than 25% of my bonds in the securities of one state or municipality, and not more than 50% of all my bonds).

Stocks are very risky. Real estate cannot be counted upon. Bitcoin is the same as putting a tenner on the outside horse in the 2.30 at Goodwood (horse racing track in southern England).

Really. You should have enough money to live your life and that of your spouse. Long trips abroad at least twice a year (once we all have our Covid vaccination papers). In fact you will have to look into Estate Planning.

But another Great Depression, or a 1966-1980 period of stagflation and -40% real returns from stocks, could absolutely kill you.

Tomorrow morning, the USA and China go to war over Taiwan. Or Russia invades the Baltic states and NATO invokes Article 5 (mutual defence) that was first used, ever, after 9-11. A new strain of the virus breaks out which is both more lethal, and existing vaccinations are completely ineffective. A major financial institutions goes bust without warning - as RBS, the world's ?4th? largest bank by assets, was threatening to do early in the GFC. We can all conjur the scenarios that start the next bear market.

Why, you should ask yourself, do you need to take that risk?
A contrary view......The risks of rising interest rates seem higher than global war (which likely would result in massive growth in US output anyway) and if he can hold his equities without being forced to liquidate, markets likely will have recovered after a decade or so anyway.

Bonds appear to be enormously risky today, and Treasuries just officially entered a bear market after a 40-year bull run. I found this quote to be interesting:
The great bond bear market commenced in April 1946. Over the following three and a half decades, an investment in 30-year U.S. Treasuries, held at constant maturity, lost more than four-fifths of its value. Across the pond, British Consols lost 97% of their purchasing power. By the late 1970s, government bonds were widely reviled as “certificates of confiscation.”
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-glob ... SKCN2AU1XC
"The Basic Choices for Investors and the One We Strongly Prefer" | | https://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/2011ltr.pdf
chazas
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by chazas »

BigLaw Survivor wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:56 am
chazas wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:12 am Great story and I'm pretty jealous. I'm almost 60 and a Biglaw partner, though due to a bunch of twists and turns (I made an unusual practice change about a decade ago, and I also have left Biglaw partnerships twice and come back) I'm "just" a nonequity partner. And I went through a recent divorce - I'd leave today, but my assets were cut in half. About $3.5M in cash/securities, mostly in tax-deferred, and an $800K house on which I owe $550K. My future comp upside is minimal but I can keep the $600K-ish income until retirement even if I insist on work-life balance, which I'm now doing. Goals are to mostly pay off the mortgage and get the investments balance up. I've already been asked would I keep doing at least some of it after official retirement - probably not, but if the world crashes it's a backup plan.
If your portfolio is only for you I'd say you're almost there . . .
I agree - though the house is the biggest question. I bought it post-divorce and love it - it's too big for me but I have built a pool, furnished a gym, done A/V work, bought some new furniture, and am working on upgrading lighting. I would prefer not to be paying a mortgage in retirement even at a low interest rate. I could always sell if I had to, but I don't want to.
WildBill
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by WildBill »

Howdy

Good to see you back, and good to see how well things are working out for you.

Time to consider moderately aggressive IRA to Roth conversions while you remain in such a low tax bracket.

Good luck

W B
"Through chances various, through all vicissitudes, we make our way." Virgil, The Aeneid
Random Poster
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by Random Poster »

London wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:29 am
Tingting1013 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:00 am
BigLaw Survivor wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:26 am PP. I hear what you're saying. I truly do. It's just that my strategy so far -- buy and hold, and don't overspend -- has served me very well for decades and I'm loathe to change it now. Not to mention that right now we have $400,000 in cash, which is two years' living expenses for us.
$200k/yr is not overspending??
It’s less than a 3% burn rate. This guy’s net worth is INCREASING, even with $200k in expenses. Why cut down? There’s no prize for dying with money. If anything, his expenses will likely drop in 15 years or so due to aging. He could spend more now and be fine. This isn’t MMM.
I’m not so sure about that.

I don’t count houses (paid off or not) in net worth calculations when it comes to what one can spend or, similarly, what one’s burn rate is.

By my math, he’s got 5.662M or, if you count the $400k in cash that is mentioned but doesn’t appear in the breakdown of numbers, $6.062M.

Either way, $200k a year is either a 3.5% or 3.29% withdrawal rate.

That is probably sustainable with a 58/42 asset allocation, given his age, but to each their own.
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BigLaw Survivor
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by BigLaw Survivor »

Random Poster wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:13 pm
London wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:29 am
Tingting1013 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:00 am
BigLaw Survivor wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:26 am PP. I hear what you're saying. I truly do. It's just that my strategy so far -- buy and hold, and don't overspend -- has served me very well for decades and I'm loathe to change it now. Not to mention that right now we have $400,000 in cash, which is two years' living expenses for us.
$200k/yr is not overspending??
It’s less than a 3% burn rate. This guy’s net worth is INCREASING, even with $200k in expenses. Why cut down? There’s no prize for dying with money. If anything, his expenses will likely drop in 15 years or so due to aging. He could spend more now and be fine. This isn’t MMM.
I’m not so sure about that.

I don’t count houses (paid off or not) in net worth calculations when it comes to what one can spend or, similarly, what one’s burn rate is.

By my math, he’s got 5.662M or, if you count the $400k in cash that is mentioned but doesn’t appear in the breakdown of numbers, $6.062M.

Either way, $200k a year is either a 3.5% or 3.29% withdrawal rate.

That is probably sustainable with a 58/42 asset allocation, given his age, but to each their own.
Hello again. FYI, the 400k is included in the 5.662M. For what it's worth, my "non-house" net worth when I retired in 2015 was 4.033M, So I'm up by 40.4 percent over the last 5 years while spending over $200k a year. I feel pretty good about where I am.
Random Poster
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by Random Poster »

BigLaw Survivor wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:16 pm I feel pretty good about where I am.
Well, ultimately, isn’t that all that really matters?
scifilover
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by scifilover »

You have a lot to feel good about.......

I did a little projection for the value of your tax deferred accounts.....$4M today, at age 72 in 12 years could be $7.2M with just 5% compound growth. This could produce an RMD of $262K approx. at age 72.

Something to think about.
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BigLaw Survivor
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by BigLaw Survivor »

scifilover wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:41 am You have a lot to feel good about.......

I did a little projection for the value of your tax deferred accounts.....$4M today, at age 72 in 12 years could be $7.2M with just 5% compound growth. This could produce an RMD of $262K approx. at age 72.

Something to think about.
I used the Schwab RMD calculator and they estimate $326k. Too much. But I expect I''l be tapping into one ore more of the accounts well before then.
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by BigLaw Survivor »

BigLaw Survivor wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:08 pm So I've officially become addicted to this forum now that I really need to get my act together. Everyone's advice has been really helpful. With my apologies to those who have already read and advised on my previous post, which contains much but not all of what follows, I'm now going to put it all out there, all of it, and ask that folks fire away. I'm a total novice at financial planning and need all the advice and reactions I can get.

Background: right before I turned 54, and after 27 years at BigLaw in a major East Coast law firm, the last ten years or so as a partner, I finally decided in June to walk away. I just couldn't do it anymore. The kids are grown and self-sufficient, college is all done and paid for, and, well, I was just done. But I didn't do any real long term planning before making my exit other than try and accumulate as much cash as I could, and after taking a rest for a few months I now need to think more carefully about how to move forward.

First, my full financial disclosure and second my basic thinking for moving forward.

My net worth is $4.8 million, broken down as follows:

ASSETS:

Cash: $66k

Law Firm Capital due and owing over the next three years: $551k (non-taxable but also earning nothing; basically cash under a mattress)

Taxable brokerage account (outside of retirement): $1.001 million (nearly 100 percent invested in US stocks/mutual funds and including about $142k in unrealized gains)

401k: $1.64 million (52% US stock funds, 17% international stock funds, 31% bond funds)

Traditional IRA: $608k (100 percent US stocks and US mutual funds)

Defined Benefit Retirement Plan: $167k (no discretion on how to invest)

Real estate: $2 milion (primary residence of $1.55 million, which includes a separate basement rental apartment that rents at $2400 a month, and a condo valued at $450k that rents at $2500 a month)

LIABILITIES:

$895k mortgage on primary residence in the form of a 10/1 interest only mortgage at 3.25 percent with 7 years remaining on interest only period and a minimum monthly payment of $2200.

$244k mortgage on condo at 3.0 percent with principal interest payments of $1198 a month

$100k balance on unsecured personal line of credit at prime rate

BASIC PLAN:

Next four to five years: live off of the $617k in cash savings/law firm capital, with an additional estimated $59k a year in rental income, or an average of $200k in after tax income, with virtually no income tax being due as I wouldn't have an income after rental expenses are factored in;

Years five/six through ten/eleven: live off of brokerage account and rental income, which conservatively should provide the same amount of money, and selling the house and or/condo in year seven or eight to reduce mortgages;

Years eleven to 40 (I hope!): collect social security starting at 65 and tap into retirement accounts, which estimating a fairly conservative 5 percent return over the next 10-11 years should be worth $3.9-$4.1 million, which again should produce roughly the same income.

CAVEATS: Folks will suggest either paying off the mortgages early or moving to a place with a lower cost of living. This obviously makes sense in the abstract. On the first point, though, please keep in mind that paying off the mortgages would deplete half the cash that I currently have on hand to live for the next ten years, that the rents that I am collecting offset the mortgages completely (and, for that matter, also the real estate taxes and condo fees), basically meaning that my housing is completely covered, and that both properties are located in highly desirable areas in a major East Coast city and are appreciating nicely. I do realize, though, that it will be decision time in 2O22, when the interest only period on the house ends and the payment presumably will increase dramatically. We will either need to sell the house and move to the condo, sell the condo and pay down the house with the proceeds, or cut back on expenses to continue owning both properties. On the second point, our children and grandchildren are all here so we aren't going anywhere.

How realistic is this plan? How might you modify it? What am I missing? Thanks.
Hi all! I cannot believe it's been SIX YEARS since I posted this. Here's an update.

According to Personal Capital, my net worth has increased over those years from the $4.8 million that I mentioned above to $7.7 million. Here's how things have changed:

1. I now own three properties: our primary residence, appraised two months ago for $1.65 million with a mortgage of $723k, which I just refinanced at no cost into a 7/1 ARM with an interest rate of 1.7 percent; our second home, now valued at $800k, which we bought for all cash; and an investment property worth $750k that we bought to rent out to our daughter for $3k a month including all utilities (fair market rent), on which we have a $468k mortgage paying $1700 a month.

2. Retirement accounts: $4.3 million.

3. Brokerage accounts: $1.2 million.

4. Cryptocurrency: $175k

We're continuing to budget ourselves $210k a year and living comfortably within that budget.

Bottom line: we are doing much better than I expected and don't regret even for a nanosecond walking away from big money!

I hope everyone is doing well. Stay safe!
Luckywon
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by Luckywon »

BigLaw Survivor wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:02 am
Bottom line: we are doing much better than I expected and don't regret even for a nanosecond walking away from big money!

I hope everyone is doing well. Stay safe!
Thanks so much for this excellent update, glad to see that this has worked out very well for you!

It looks like you at least started out with high allocation to equities. It must have been quite the ride for you around March of 2020, looks like you were able to stay the course! May I ask what your investment allocation in your tax advantaged and non tax advantaged accounts has been over this period?

Also, curious what your actual spending has been. Have you been able to spend from your portfolio without incurring too much in income taxes? Would appreciate any detail about what your actual tax burden during this initial spend down period has been. Asking for a friend :sharebeer
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by BigLaw Survivor »

Luckywon wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:09 pm
BigLaw Survivor wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:02 am
Bottom line: we are doing much better than I expected and don't regret even for a nanosecond walking away from big money!

I hope everyone is doing well. Stay safe!
Thanks so much for this excellent update, glad to see that this has worked out very well for you!

It looks like you at least started out with high allocation to equities. It must have been quite the ride for you around March of 2020, looks like you were able to stay the course! May I ask what your investment allocation in your tax advantaged and non tax advantaged accounts has been over this period?

Also, curious what your actual spending has been. Have you been able to spend from your portfolio without incurring too much in income taxes? Would appreciate any detail about what your actual tax burden during this initial spend down period has been. Asking for a friend :sharebeer
Hi, thanks for your reply.

Yes, I did stay the course in March 2020. Not gonna lie, I was nervous, but as I've always done I just stayed he course.

Overall I'm just under 80 percent equities, the bulk of that being domestic large cap, with the rest being bonds and other fixed incomes. Very recently I agreed to allow Schwab to manage my largest account, a 401k that I rolled over into an IRA last year, whose current value is just over $3 million. Looking now, I'm seeing its about 60 percent equities, 30 percent bonds, and the rest a mixture of commodities, real estate and cash. The account seems to be doing well, with ups and downs that are less pronounced than my other accounts.

As for my tax burden, I expect 2021 to be the largest since my retirement but not terrible. I wish I could put a number on it but it's unusually complicated this year so I'm going to have to wait until year's end when my accountant crunches the numbers. For example, we made a last minute decision to buy a house for our daughter last spring to rent back from us. She and her husband were having trouble finding a suitable rental with their big silly dog, and she's expecting a baby, so we decided to help out. Getting the money together to make an all cash offer required me to sell some equities that I wasn't planning on, etc. Not a big deal, though -- I was glad to be in a position to help.
wrongfunds
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by wrongfunds »

Am I mistaking OP for somebody else? I remember there was a topic about "I get physically ill to spend money" or something like that. I see no trace of that anxiety in this topic.
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BigLaw Survivor
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by BigLaw Survivor »

wrongfunds wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:32 pm Am I mistaking OP for somebody else? I remember there was a topic about "I get physically ill to spend money" or something like that. I see no trace of that anxiety in this topic.
Yes, you're mistaking me for someone else. I do not get physically ill spending money and don't know anything about that thread. :D
Random Poster
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by Random Poster »

wrongfunds wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:32 pm Am I mistaking OP for somebody else? I remember there was a topic about "I get physically ill to spend money" or something like that. I see no trace of that anxiety in this topic.
I think you are thinking of this thread, by Small Law Survivor:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=356039
Most experiences are better imagined.
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anon_investor
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by anon_investor »

Random Poster wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:11 pm
wrongfunds wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:32 pm Am I mistaking OP for somebody else? I remember there was a topic about "I get physically ill to spend money" or something like that. I see no trace of that anxiety in this topic.
I think you are thinking of this thread, by Small Law Survivor:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=356039
What great user names!
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BigLaw Survivor
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by BigLaw Survivor »

anon_investor wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:13 pm
Random Poster wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:11 pm
wrongfunds wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:32 pm Am I mistaking OP for somebody else? I remember there was a topic about "I get physically ill to spend money" or something like that. I see no trace of that anxiety in this topic.
I think you are thinking of this thread, by Small Law Survivor:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=356039
What great user names!
Ha ha yea but I picked mine first!
wrongfunds
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by wrongfunds »

Quite a difference between "Small" and "Big"!

Is there somebody named "rightfunds" registered in this forum :-)
WhyNotUs
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by WhyNotUs »

Thoughts to consider- Simplify

Roll over your IRAs and investment accounts into a single brokerage firm to simplify tracking, AA, rebalancing

Start taking advantage of Roth for each of you. In 10 years you could have a couple hundred thousand in there assuming max investment and market performs. That could be 100% TSM and the last funds you spend or the first for your children, by death it could grow quite a bit.

If you sold the house in year six, you could take the $500k in free capital gains (assuming current law) and move to the condo. Simplify.

If you lived in the condo when you first bought it, there may be some additional options for a second bite of the capital exclusion apple but that is something specific that you would need to research. Regardless, if you want a change, then a 1031 transfer could be a option if the new home is at least as expensive. That one is not so simple but may or may not be relevant to you.

Create a budget- track spending and identify valued spending versus just spending. Moving to the condo could help with downsize/simplify

Have fun with your success and enjoy other activities
I own the next hot stock- VTSAX
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BigLaw Survivor
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by BigLaw Survivor »

WhyNotUs wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:08 pm Thoughts to consider- Simplify

Roll over your IRAs and investment accounts into a single brokerage firm to simplify tracking, AA, rebalancing

Start taking advantage of Roth for each of you. In 10 years you could have a couple hundred thousand in there assuming max investment and market performs. That could be 100% TSM and the last funds you spend or the first for your children, by death it could grow quite a bit.

If you sold the house in year six, you could take the $500k in free capital gains (assuming current law) and move to the condo. Simplify.

If you lived in the condo when you first bought it, there may be some additional options for a second bite of the capital exclusion apple but that is something specific that you would need to research. Regardless, if you want a change, then a 1031 transfer could be a option if the new home is at least as expensive. That one is not so simple but may or may not be relevant to you.

Create a budget- track spending and identify valued spending versus just spending. Moving to the condo could help with downsize/simplify

Have fun with your success and enjoy other activities
Hi, thanks for the advice but my original post is now six years old! Since then we've sold the condo and consolidated all of our accounts into a single brokerage firm etc. . . . .
Carousel
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by Carousel »

I'm curious about something, if you feel like answering.
You mentioned a working class background. Did that affect your ability to fit in/succeed in Big Law? How unusual was your background w/re to your colleagues?
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BigLaw Survivor
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by BigLaw Survivor »

Carousel wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:18 pm I'm curious about something, if you feel like answering.
You mentioned a working class background. Did that affect your ability to fit in/succeed in Big Law? How unusual was your background w/re to your colleagues?
Yes, it had a significant effect.

My background was highly unusual in my firm, especially when I first started there in the late 1980s. I came from a large Catholic family where neither parent graduated high school; I did very well at a regional Catholic college that no one's ever heard of and was the only school I even applied to because I knew no better and my brother was already there; and from there I was accepted to and graduated at the very top of my class from a good law school but still not anything approaching Ivy League, etc. Yet, somehow, I landed a job at one of the most prestigious law firms in the country -- the first lawyer they ever hired from my law school. I still remember going to a welcome dinner where a senior partner (who like half the partnership had gone to Harvard) asked me where I went to school, and when I told him his response was "well, people go to a variety of different law schools for different reasons . . . "

I stood out like a sore thumb from Day One. I didn't have the finesse or social niceties that most of my colleagues did, I chafed at the idea of conforming, and I never really did conform. I thought that many of my colleagues were snobs and sticks-in-the-mud -- which they were -- and I think they knew I thought that. Many of my colleagues also assumed I wasn't as smart as them because I didn't have their educational pedigree. The combination of refusal (or inability) to conform and my lesser academic pedigree absolutely hurt me professionally -- although staff loved me, ha ha. It took me twice as long to make partner as was typical and even then it wouldn't have happened had a large client not landed on my lap in a stroke of luck.

But, in the end, I must say I did "succeed." I mean, I did make partner -- and the overwhelming majority of associates at my firm couldn't do that no matter where they went to law school. So there's that. But succeeding didn't make me happy. It just led to more stress, and more money -- eventually enough money to finally push me out the door.

I have nothing to do with the firm or any of the lawyers I worked with anymore. Zero. It's like it never happened.

It was not for me.
jaqenhghar
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by jaqenhghar »

BigLaw Survivor wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:20 pm
Carousel wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:18 pm I'm curious about something, if you feel like answering.
You mentioned a working class background. Did that affect your ability to fit in/succeed in Big Law? How unusual was your background w/re to your colleagues?
Yes, it had a significant effect.

My background was highly unusual in my firm, especially when I first started there in the late 1980s. I came from a large Catholic family where neither parent graduated high school; I did very well at a regional Catholic college that no one's ever heard of and was the only school I even applied to because I knew no better and my brother was already there; and from there I was accepted to and graduated at the very top of my class from a good law school but still not anything approaching Ivy League, etc. Yet, somehow, I landed a job at one of the most prestigious law firms in the country -- the first lawyer they ever hired from my law school. I still remember going to a welcome dinner where a senior partner (who like half the partnership had gone to Harvard) asked me where I went to school, and when I told him his response was "well, people go to a variety of different law schools for different reasons . . . "

I stood out like a sore thumb from Day One. I didn't have the finesse or social niceties that most of my colleagues did, I chafed at the idea of conforming, and I never really did conform. I thought that many of my colleagues were snobs and sticks-in-the-mud -- which they were -- and I think they knew I thought that. Many of my colleagues also assumed I wasn't as smart as them because I didn't have their educational pedigree. The combination of refusal (or inability) to conform and my lesser academic pedigree absolutely hurt me professionally -- although staff loved me, ha ha. It took me twice as long to make partner as was typical and even then it wouldn't have happened had a large client not landed on my lap in a stroke of luck.

But, in the end, I must say I did "succeed." I mean, I did make partner -- and the overwhelming majority of associates at my firm couldn't do that no matter where they went to law school. So there's that. But succeeding didn't make me happy. It just led to more stress, and more money -- eventually enough money to finally push me out the door.

I have nothing to do with the firm or any of the lawyers I worked with anymore. Zero. It's like it never happened.

It was not for me.
OP, thank you for such a thoughtful response. Your note about "I have nothing to do with the firm or any of the lawyers I worked with anymore. Zero. It's like it never happened." really stood out.
Topic Author
BigLaw Survivor
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by BigLaw Survivor »

You're welcome. I appreciated the question.
bltn
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by bltn »

BigLaw Survivor wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:20 pm
Carousel wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:18 pm I'm curious about something, if you feel like answering.
You mentioned a working class background. Did that affect your ability to fit in/succeed in Big Law? How unusual was your background w/re to your colleagues?
Yes, it had a significant effect.

My background was highly unusual in my firm, especially when I first started there in the late 1980s. I came from a large Catholic family where neither parent graduated high school; I did very well at a regional Catholic college that no one's ever heard of and was the only school I even applied to because I knew no better and my brother was already there; and from there I was accepted to and graduated at the very top of my class from a good law school but still not anything approaching Ivy League, etc. Yet, somehow, I landed a job at one of the most prestigious law firms in the country -- the first lawyer they ever hired from my law school. I still remember going to a welcome dinner where a senior partner (who like half the partnership had gone to Harvard) asked me where I went to school, and when I told him his response was "well, people go to a variety of different law schools for different reasons . . . "

I stood out like a sore thumb from Day One. I didn't have the finesse or social niceties that most of my colleagues did, I chafed at the idea of conforming, and I never really did conform. I thought that many of my colleagues were snobs and sticks-in-the-mud -- which they were -- and I think they knew I thought that. Many of my colleagues also assumed I wasn't as smart as them because I didn't have their educational pedigree. The combination of refusal (or inability) to conform and my lesser academic pedigree absolutely hurt me professionally -- although staff loved me, ha ha. It took me twice as long to make partner as was typical and even then it wouldn't have happened had a large client not landed on my lap in a stroke of luck.

But, in the end, I must say I did "succeed." I mean, I did make partner -- and the overwhelming majority of associates at my firm couldn't do that no matter where they went to law school. So there's that. But succeeding didn't make me happy. It just led to more stress, and more money -- eventually enough money to finally push me out the door.

I have nothing to do with the firm or any of the lawyers I worked with anymore. Zero. It's like it never happened.

It was not for me.
Congratulations on your success in your career. Your story sounds like a good example of persistence paying off.
Despite your feeling as though you didn t fit in, and your feeling of a lucky break helping you make partner, it sounds as though you were very competent and it was recognized by those in the practice who matter.
Best of luck.
Carousel
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by Carousel »

BigLaw Survivor wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:20 pm
Carousel wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:18 pm I'm curious about something, if you feel like answering.
You mentioned a working class background. Did that affect your ability to fit in/succeed in Big Law? How unusual was your background w/re to your colleagues?
Yes, it had a significant effect.

...
Last edited by Carousel on Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
Topic Author
BigLaw Survivor
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by BigLaw Survivor »

Thanks. In my case it was more about perserverance than anything else. Biglaw pays big money even to non-partners, I had a large family to support (four kids before turning 30). I was never in danger of being let go or anything -- so I stuck around for as long as I felt I needed the money. In the process, cards eventually fell into place and they made me a partner. Had I not been married with kids so young, I would have left the firm at least 20 years earlier than I did.

It was worth the sacrifice, though. It's not like I was digging ditches. They paid me well, there were lots of perks, I provided very well for my family, and I retired in my early 50s healthy and with millions. Others have it worse.
printer86
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by printer86 »

BigLaw Survivor wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:20 pm
I have nothing to do with the firm or any of the lawyers I worked with anymore. Zero. It's like it never happened.

It was not for me.
I'm replying to this thread first to say congratulations on successfully navigating your journey. But also to say that I can very much relate to the quote above. I retired last year to the surprise of many but me. I estimated that we had enough and I was done with the whole thing.

I left on great terms, and even took the time to train my replacement. However, the minute I walked out the door it was over. I haven't spoken to a single person I worked with and don't spend a minute thinking about my thirty something year career. Like you said, it's like it never happened.

Best of luck on the rest of your journey.
Valuethinker
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by Valuethinker »

BigLaw Survivor wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:30 am Thanks. In my case it was more about perserverance than anything else. Biglaw pays big money even to non-partners, I had a large family to support (four kids before turning 30). I was never in danger of being let go or anything -- so I stuck around for as long as I felt I needed the money. In the process, cards eventually fell into place and they made me a partner. Had I not been married with kids so young, I would have left the firm at least 20 years earlier than I did.

It was worth the sacrifice, though. It's not like I was digging ditches. They paid me well, there were lots of perks, I provided very well for my family, and I retired in my early 50s healthy and with millions. Others have it worse.
Thank you for providing in such honest detail about your career and life.

I came from a "WASP" background very similar to how you describe your colleagues. I never "fitted in well" though, and this was not in the USA (nor in the field of law although I nearly did attend law school at one point). However the scenes at Harvard depicted in The Social Network, really struck a chord. I went to college with the equivalents of the Winklevoss twins.

I have a friend who is a very happy corporate lawyer in America - having entered that field in his 40s as a 2nd career. He reflects your comments about the academic snobbery of law schools.

I think there are a lot of important life lessons in your journey. Careers, and life, are a series of tradeoffs. And it's important to have perspective on it when you go.

Family, and to a lesser extent friends, may stick with you in your life journey. Colleagues, by and large, won't. Although I have kept 1-2 friends from many of my major places of employ. One problem I find now is that my colleagues are generally much younger than I am, and I can see the forces which will distance them from me in the future - pairing off, raising children etc.
EddyB
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by EddyB »

BigLaw Survivor wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:20 pm
It was not for me.
As a BigLaw partner, also from a working-class background, I have to laugh at the statement above. You stuck it out for 27 years! I suspect I know what you mean, but there’s some dissonance involved, no?
Topic Author
BigLaw Survivor
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Re: More advice for BigLaw Survivor, please?

Post by BigLaw Survivor »

EddyB wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:39 am
BigLaw Survivor wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:20 pm
It was not for me.
As a BigLaw partner, also from a working-class background, I have to laugh at the statement above. You stuck it out for 27 years! I suspect I know what you mean, but there’s some dissonance involved, no?
Ha ha, maybe. But I'm really trying here to tell it like it is.

I went from being on food stamps and in a very real sense living in squalor to a partnership in one of the country's most elte law firms where I was closing in on a seven-figure income. And, as I said, I wasn't digging ditches to earn that money. I also had a family to support and no one but myself to fall back on. I felt extremely selfish for even contemplating leaving. So, yea, I stuck it out for 27 years even though I knew the entire time that it wasn't for me.
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