The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

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alex123711
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The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

Post by alex123711 »

JL Collins talks about Salesforce as a career in this blog, however it sort of comes across as a paid advertisement in some way, has he 'sold out' or does it make some good points?

https://jlcollinsnh.com/2021/08/04/the- ... ve-career/
UpperNwGuy
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Re: The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

Post by UpperNwGuy »

This is blatant salesmanship for an unproven concept. Sorry to see JL Collins getting mixed up in this. I'm sure he took some money for this ad.
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Re: The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

Post by jharkin »

I just skimmed it, but it looks like he is just using Salesforce as an example of the latest trendy non-degree IT certification.

Other certs have been similarly hot in the past… SAP, Oracle DBA, Microsoft MCSE, etc.

You could also get a PMP cert and look for project management roles… or one of the hot Agile certs like SaFe SPC and go into consulting.
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Re: The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

Post by jharkin »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:59 am This is blatant salesmanship for an unproven concept. Sorry to see JL Collins getting mixed up in this. I'm sure he took some money for this ad.
To be honest I’ve never been a fan of any of the FI bloggers, so it doesn’t surprise me. Almost all of them are not really “retired” they are just living off business income from their website. The blogs are not here to make us rich, they are making the blogger rich.

JL has a compelling story but it should be pretty obvious that if you get a degree in a field known for not making money (English) and work odd menial jobs that you have to do something else if your goal in life is to be wealthy.

MMM is not retired… he makes money from contracting and blog advertising, his followers should realize that if they do his method without that piece they will come up short.

Financial Samurai lives in a bubble and is oblivious of the fact that without his 1% Silicon Valley income few regular folks will be able to duplicate his results.

And don't get me started on all the me-too bloggers who’s “success” comes from any Ivy League education paid for by Mommy and Daddy (oh and they gifted you your first house too? How cute…) or hitting the lottery of 7figure stock options in a startup job, etc…


Zzzzzzz…zzzz….zzz…. moving on.
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ClevrChico
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Re: The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

Post by ClevrChico »

There's terrible advice in this article.

The fact that it emphasizing "no coding" is a red flag. Even analyst type jobs these days need some coding skills.
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Re: The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

alex123711 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:30 am JL Collins talks about Salesforce as a career in this blog, however it sort of comes across as a paid advertisement in some way, has he 'sold out' or does it make some good points?

https://jlcollinsnh.com/2021/08/04/the- ... ve-career/
One of my many IT jobs was in Salesforce. (and its competitor Siebel CRM).. Companies do pay a lot for good people, and the bar isn't that high..

I'm not saying you will get a 30 year career out of it, but if someone wanted a job for 5 years, sure there are lots of opportunities currently in salesforce.

What the non-software people haven't seen is the evolution of the software landscape over the last 30 years, and it is hard to predict when the winds will change.
Earned 43 (and counting) credit hours of financial planning related education from a regionally accredited university, but I am not your advisor.
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Re: The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

Post by Tamarind »

jharkin wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:09 am I just skimmed it, but it looks like he is just using Salesforce as an example of the latest trendy non-degree IT certification.

Other certs have been similarly hot in the past… SAP, Oracle DBA, Microsoft MCSE, etc.

You could also get a PMP cert and look for project management roles… or one of the hot Agile certs like SaFe SPC and go into consulting.
So I find Collins' story here shallow, but it is true that there are tech-adjacent niches which do not require a college degree. Although I have a degree in a non-IT field, I work in one of them.

Here's what he is right about:
1. There are jobs with pay ranging from $50,000-$200,000 that do not technically require a college degree: ERP or CRM administrator, implementation analyst, consultant.
2. ERP/CRM work is extremely hot right now, and someone with only a certificate can indeed get an entry level job or temp job and work their way up. Someone with several years of experience and good reputation can make 6 figures and choose their employer.
3. You do not have to code to be very well paid in this field.

Here's what he's leaving out:
1. The highest paid jobs are still usually occupied by people with bachelor's or master's degrees, though mostly not in relevant fields.
2. To get above $50k and secure stable work you must actually be good at the work and establish a reputation. This requires developing your systems thinking and gaining much more depth of knowledge than the certificates cover.
3. Getting the certificate can be difficult if you don't already work for a company that has the software in question for you to learn on. Testing for the certificate may also be expensive and may be particularly alienating for people who didn't test well in school.
4. You still have to get that first office job, which is definitely harder without a degree.
5. You do need to understand excel, write fragmentary sql, and be able to skim other languages with basic comprehension in order to be a very strong contender.
6. As with any boom occupation, this window will probably close as more people pile in. Salesforce workers already get lower pay than other tools that have more complex certs.
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Re: The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

Post by stoptothink »

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:48 am
alex123711 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:30 am JL Collins talks about Salesforce as a career in this blog, however it sort of comes across as a paid advertisement in some way, has he 'sold out' or does it make some good points?

https://jlcollinsnh.com/2021/08/04/the- ... ve-career/
One of my many IT jobs was in Salesforce. (and its competitor Siebel CRM).. Companies do pay a lot for good people, and the bar isn't that high..

I'm not saying you will get a 30 year career out of it, but if someone wanted a job for 5 years, sure there are lots of opportunities currently in salesforce.

What the non-software people haven't seen is the evolution of the software landscape over the last 30 years, and it is hard to predict when the winds will change.
There are a lot of opportunities in software that have zilch to do with coding, Salesforce being just one right now. My wife is in another one of these somewhat related areas ("customer success") and her department is (on average) the highest paid in the entire company (fintech). She has a degree now (in business admin, and likely would not have gotten an interview for current position without it), but started 4yrs ago making $80k-$110k without one (and pretty much zero experience) - she now makes twice that (before RSUs). Who knows how valuable those skills will be in a decade, but ample opportunity now.
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Re: The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

Post by nigel_ht »

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:48 am
What the non-software people haven't seen is the evolution of the software landscape over the last 30 years, and it is hard to predict when the winds will change.
Curious what you mean by this…
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Re: The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

nigel_ht wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:21 am
Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:48 am
What the non-software people haven't seen is the evolution of the software landscape over the last 30 years, and it is hard to predict when the winds will change.
Curious what you mean by this…
While there are skills/technologies/etc that have been long lasting. The software space is in constant evolution. Mainframe -> data center -> pc -> cloud -> mobile -> ?? The same is true in the software space. The CRM (that is what salesforce is) software of the previous decade was Siebel CRM, also Microsoft Dynamics is a contender. In IT, the whole point of IT is to be disruptive. The current trend right now is cloud based Software as a service with minimal configuration. This might not be the "target architecture" of the late 2020s. I can't see that far in the future.

Technology changes rapidly, which is why you will see others like Klangfool argue that his career is in jeopardy, and it is. It is hard to reach 65 in IT, because you are subject to being replaced along with the software that you support is being replaced. The company views you as a liability just like the software. They would rather higher a young person, and train them on the next thing, because they are cheaper, and hopefully they will get 10 years our of them before they are so frustrated and want to leave. By then the software will be outdated and it will be time for yet another replacement project.

The only constant in IT is change. One has to be ready to continually re-invent themselves to the new technology and problems that are being solved by the business leadership. It is exhausting.

----
The real niche occupations are other skills who have IT skills.. They will forever be in demand.. Are you an accountant/CPA with IT skills? in demand.. Are you a factory machinist with IT skills? In demand.. are you a <insert profession> with IT skills? in demand..

pure IT people? much easier to replace.
Earned 43 (and counting) credit hours of financial planning related education from a regionally accredited university, but I am not your advisor.
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Re: The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

Post by nigel_ht »

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:27 am
nigel_ht wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:21 am
Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:48 am
What the non-software people haven't seen is the evolution of the software landscape over the last 30 years, and it is hard to predict when the winds will change.
Curious what you mean by this…
While there are skills/technologies/etc that have been long lasting. The software space is in constant evolution. Mainframe -> data center -> pc -> cloud -> mobile -> ?? The same is true in the software space. The CRM (that is what salesforce is) software of the previous decade was Siebel CRM, also Microsoft Dynamics is a contender. In IT, the whole point of IT is to be disruptive. The current trend right now is cloud based Software as a service with minimal configuration. This might not be the "target architecture" of the late 2020s. I can't see that far in the future.

Technology changes rapidly, which is why you will see others like Klangfool argue that his career is in jeopardy, and it is. It is hard to reach 65 in IT, because you are subject to being replaced along with the software that you support is being replaced. The company views you as a liability just like the software. They would rather higher a young person, and train them on the next thing, because they are cheaper, and hopefully they will get 10 years our of them before they are so frustrated and want to leave. By then the software will be outdated and it will be time for yet another replacement project.

The only constant in IT is change. One has to be ready to continually re-invent themselves to the new technology and problems that are being solved by the business leadership. It is exhausting.
Got it. Yes, IT is more dynamic than coding. New languages and software stacks don’t seem to come quite as quickly as new certs.

If you can’t move into management for IT folks it can be a struggle 40+.

To be honest though…SaaS architecture wise is sorta like mainframes/data centers. Sabre in the 70s provided SaaS for airline reservations to other airlines and travel agents. The two major architectures are centralized vs decentralized.

Now I just sound old.
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Re: The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

nigel_ht wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:41 am
Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:27 am
nigel_ht wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:21 am
Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:48 am
What the non-software people haven't seen is the evolution of the software landscape over the last 30 years, and it is hard to predict when the winds will change.
Curious what you mean by this…
While there are skills/technologies/etc that have been long lasting. The software space is in constant evolution. Mainframe -> data center -> pc -> cloud -> mobile -> ?? The same is true in the software space. The CRM (that is what salesforce is) software of the previous decade was Siebel CRM, also Microsoft Dynamics is a contender. In IT, the whole point of IT is to be disruptive. The current trend right now is cloud based Software as a service with minimal configuration. This might not be the "target architecture" of the late 2020s. I can't see that far in the future.

Technology changes rapidly, which is why you will see others like Klangfool argue that his career is in jeopardy, and it is. It is hard to reach 65 in IT, because you are subject to being replaced along with the software that you support is being replaced. The company views you as a liability just like the software. They would rather higher a young person, and train them on the next thing, because they are cheaper, and hopefully they will get 10 years our of them before they are so frustrated and want to leave. By then the software will be outdated and it will be time for yet another replacement project.

The only constant in IT is change. One has to be ready to continually re-invent themselves to the new technology and problems that are being solved by the business leadership. It is exhausting.
Got it. Yes, IT is more dynamic than coding. New languages and software stacks don’t seem to come quite as quickly as new certs.

If you can’t move into management for IT folks it can be a struggle 40+.

To be honest though…SaaS architecture wise is sorta like mainframes/data centers. Sabre in the 70s provided SaaS for airline reservations to other airlines and travel agents. The two major architectures are centralized vs decentralized.

Now I just sound old.
I agree the SaaS is very similar to Mainframe. Solutions rhyme. it really comes down to are you willing to constantly learn? There is a new trend in "libraries" in the coding space every other week it seems. I'm not saying one can't make a career out of it, but it is different then being a tax accountant, that while things change, there is only a tiny rudder on a huge ship. In IT, it is a tiny ship with a huge rudder, and you are subject to the whims of the CEO/CIO and strategy counsels. (at least in big megacorps).

My original point was.. sure, Salesforce looks good for the next 5 years, but i just can't see beyond that, so don't count on it as a "career" as it is one technology/solution/skill, one must be ready to pivot.
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Re: The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

Post by CyclingDuo »

alex123711 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:30 am JL Collins talks about Salesforce as a career in this blog, however it sort of comes across as a paid advertisement in some way, has he 'sold out' or does it make some good points?

https://jlcollinsnh.com/2021/08/04/the- ... ve-career/
Ed Tee writes in the article at that link:

"Personal finance bloggers and podcasters have historically struggled to provide a great answer to the earning part of “earn more, spend less, and invest better.” The ideas have ranged from bad and spammy (surveys anyone? Urgh!!) to mediocre and unsustainable. We could start a side hustle or work in the gig economy, but compensation on platforms like Uber or InstantCart seems to be in a race to the bottom. They work okay in the short term for distinct objectives like to crushing debt or setting aside that first emergency fund, but in the long term they will only marginally improve your financial situation. And that is assuming you don’t burn out. Side hustles are less useful for most people seeking FI, especially over a 5-10 year period, while still maintaining a healthy balance."

Of all the suggestions that Ed Tee of ChooseFI wrote in that article and JL Collins posted, it seems odd that Ed did not mention the one that we practice and seems so obvious: Be a dual income household. Live on one salary and invest the other.

At least that is the kind of programming we have used for our household income and balance sheet over the decades.
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Re: The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

Post by White Coat Investor »

alex123711 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:30 am JL Collins talks about Salesforce as a career in this blog, however it sort of comes across as a paid advertisement in some way, has he 'sold out' or does it make some good points?

https://jlcollinsnh.com/2021/08/04/the- ... ve-career/
No he doesn't. He simply introduced the person who wrote the article.
Problem is, finding jobs that pay well might not be so easy. But they are out there.

I won’t say more so as not to spoil your read, but I’ll have a further comment at the post’s end. Meanwhile, enjoy!

The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career
Ed Tee: CEO, ChooseFI
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Re: The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

Post by jacksprat »

My son & I had a similar conversation recently and as he is in a high tech role at a large entity, he firmly believes that most IT folks would be well served by simply getting only just as little training to become entry level qualified - whatever that is. No need to incur a lot of expensive education since many companies will provide education assistance as needed to advance.

He says many of the best are those who just have the basics in place - and are willing to advance and learn.

SO , I agree with what I think JL Collins is implying.. With SO many parents pushing 'coding' as a path to employment, just get the basics to get employed with as little time ,expense and energy. Salesforce knowledge is certainly one approach.

IT jobs seems to be requiring a constant replenishment of ones toolbox of skills more frequently than ever.

Advanced degrees may offer an easier path to employment for some , but is a graduate degree the best approach in today's environment ?

Get your foot in the door as easily as possible. Then move forward with what your companys needs are and you may just be better off in the long run.
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Re: The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

Post by hotscot »

Lucrative career?

Start your own lucrative business.
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Re: The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

Post by 8foot7 »

hotscot wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:55 pm Lucrative career?

Start your own lucrative business.
This reminds me of

Image
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Re: The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

Post by Jags4186 »

jharkin wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:25 am
UpperNwGuy wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:59 am This is blatant salesmanship for an unproven concept. Sorry to see JL Collins getting mixed up in this. I'm sure he took some money for this ad.
To be honest I’ve never been a fan of any of the FI bloggers, so it doesn’t surprise me. Almost all of them are not really “retired” they are just living off business income from their website. The blogs are not here to make us rich, they are making the blogger rich.

JL has a compelling story but it should be pretty obvious that if you get a degree in a field known for not making money (English) and work odd menial jobs that you have to do something else if your goal in life is to be wealthy.

MMM is not retired… he makes money from contracting and blog advertising, his followers should realize that if they do his method without that piece they will come up short.

Financial Samurai lives in a bubble and is oblivious of the fact that without his 1% Silicon Valley income few regular folks will be able to duplicate his results.

And don't get me started on all the me-too bloggers who’s “success” comes from any Ivy League education paid for by Mommy and Daddy (oh and they gifted you your first house too? How cute…) or hitting the lottery of 7figure stock options in a startup job, etc…


Zzzzzzz…zzzz….zzz…. moving on.
:D I thought I was the only one…
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Re: The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

Post by KlangFool »

Folks,

If you want a long lasting career, please avoid IT. I am glad to see that my son and their generation move on to Mechanical Engineering as the popular Engineering undergraduate major. It is less likely to be off-shored. It is boring. And, you need many years of math and science to enter this area. Not a few months of coding boot camp to let you into this area.

I have degree in BSEE and MSEE. My degree allowed me to understand problem that an IT person would not know and understand in the Wireless area. My science and math fundamental still serve me well after 30+ years.

There is a substantial difference between long-term and short-term thinking. Go for the short-term if you can get rich and retire in a few years. If not, please make sure that your fundamental is strong enough for you to outlast the latest hot trend.

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Re: The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

Post by willthrill81 »

jharkin wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:25 am To be honest I’ve never been a fan of any of the FI bloggers, so it doesn’t surprise me.
I largely agree with you, though Paula Pant is an exception. She's pretty much a dyed-in-the-wool BH, though she does discuss rental properties more than most do. However, she's quick to say that real estate is definitely not for everyone.
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Re: The Simple Path to a Lucrative Career - JL Collins

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