Formula One

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
User avatar
Topic Author
Driver
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 3:18 pm

Formula One

Post by Driver »

Are there any bogleheads that are F1 fans?
RMB
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:21 am

Post by RMB »

I have been to the races at Sao Paulo and Shanghai. Would love to go to the Sao Paulo race again, but probably won't bother with Shanghai. Definitely worth checking out a race in person at least once.
FoolishJumper
Posts: 351
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:48 am
Location: Midwest

Post by FoolishJumper »

I'm a marginal fan, but my wife is big on F1 and has been since she used to watch Ayrton Senna as a kid!

In fact, we're planning to go to Monaco this year, as we can get VIP pit passes from a family friend. Might go to Barcelona this year too, but I'm hoping to convince her to go to the Red Bull Air Race in Portugal instead!
User avatar
ddb
Posts: 5511
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:37 am
Location: American Gardens Building, West 81st St.

Post by ddb »

Driver wrote:Are there any bogleheads that are F1 fans?
I tried to become a fan a few years back - watched all of the coverage I could for two seasons. It never really took, so I stopped watching it.

My main issue with the sport are the barriers to entry. Whereas I'm reasonably sure that Kaka, Gerard, Messi, etc. are the best footballers in the world, I don't have much confidence that this year's crop of F1 drivers are the best in the world - they're just the best among the very small subset of people who had the opportunity to enter the sport.

I'm also generally not a fan of a sport where the broadcasters can cut away to a 2-minute commercial sequence, and there's a VERY strong chance that you didn't miss any action.

- DDB
"We have to encourage a return to traditional moral values. Most importantly, we have to promote general social concern, and less materialism in young people." - PB
MTTrek
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:59 pm

sure

Post by MTTrek »

F1 is the premier motor sports competition in the rest of the world. Similar to football (soccer) in that there is not the same level of interest in the U.S.

I follow it, but I have to agree that sometimes it is not that exciting when one team or driver just takes off and it is never in doubt who will win the race. The past couple of seasons overall have been enjoyable with multiple drivers contending for the championship. Seems with all these rule changes, every season gets to be different. Not sure what'll happen with so many manufacturers having quit F1. It may be more about the drivers now.

I like to root for the underdog like Alonso for the past couple of season with his inferior car or Force India getting their first points.

To truly get into it, you need to watch the training and qualifying sessions also to learn about the teams and drivers. I thought Speed channel has been doing a decent job (minus the commercials).
GammaPoint
Posts: 2661
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:25 am
Location: Washington

Post by GammaPoint »

I could never get into car racing of any sort. If all the cars were identical then maybe I'd watch for a second, but from my completely ignorant understanding is that the cars are allowed to be different?

If that's the case then I don't see why someone would want to watch a faster car beat a slower one. Well, I guess there's the pride of having designed the best car, but then again with different budgets for each team the outcome of that doesn't seem to be the biggest surprise either.

I prefer sports where the heroes get to where they are by a combination of genetics and hard work.
eucalyptus
Posts: 746
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:24 pm

Post by eucalyptus »

"I prefer sports where the heroes get to where they are by a combination of genetics and hard work."


I can personally assure you that the great racing drivers become great thanks to genetics and hard work. The fitness level of an F1 driver exceeds that of say, a professional baseball player. While racing, drivers endure high g loads almost constantly, perform in a usually very hot, very confined environment, in all types of weather short of ice and snow, must manage extremely powerful equipment whose condition and performance changes constantly, on surfaces that change constantly, in a dance inches from opponents, at risk to their lives. Baseball players stand around in dry weather, performing for maybe five minutes in the course of a three hour game.

F1 is a fascinating team sport that requires tremendous amounts of talent, technology and money. The "team" includes highly paid non-athletes - aerodynamicists, for example. It's a very interesting and complex thing, and one I've followed for many years.

Money indeed plays a significant role in determining who gets a shot at racing success. It plays a similar role in virtually every sport, though more so in racing than some others.

Virtually no one in the US cares about F1, and I don't see that changing. American don't really get sportscar and single seater racing, for which there is a very broad and substantial fan base in places like the UK. Different strokes ....



Am I an F1 fan? I was watching the San Marino Grand Prix on May 1, 1994, and will never forget that day.
User avatar
xystici
Posts: 320
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:40 pm
Location: San Diego, Boston & Barcelona

Post by xystici »

I am a F1 fan... I have been a fan of Michael Schumacher as a teenager / 20's and now I am fan of Fernando Alonso.

This 2010 season should be a great one and I hope to see either Fernando or Michael in the podium for many of the races...

Any other fans of Schumacher or Alonso?
GammaPoint
Posts: 2661
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:25 am
Location: Washington

Post by GammaPoint »

eucalyptus wrote:
I can personally assure you that the great racing drivers become great thanks to genetics and hard work. The fitness level of an F1 driver exceeds that of say, a professional baseball player. While racing, drivers endure high g loads almost constantly, perform in a usually very hot, very confined environment, in all types of weather short of ice and snow, must manage extremely powerful equipment whose condition and performance changes constantly, on surfaces that change constantly, in a dance inches from opponents, at risk to their lives. Baseball players stand around in dry weather, performing for maybe five minutes in the course of a three hour game.
Well, I guess that depends on what you mean by "fitness" level, which I typically correlate with health benefits of an activity. Does enduring high g loads, performing in a cramped hot space, or driving on different surfaces next to other drivers make you any more healthy as an individual? That may take training and experience (i.e., talent), but I wouldn't call it "fitness". Perhaps there is some genetic component to that though, and I could see how it would take practice. I know I probably wouldn't sit in an F1 car without the comfort of a diaper.

However I fully admit that I can't really judge racing as I've only seen short clips of it and probably don't understand the dynamics of the sport. I used to think cycling was incredibly boring as well (the fastest guy wins?) but after I got into it I realized it's an incredibly complex sport requiring a lot of teamwork to win. If F1 or NASCAR racing was similar it wouldn't totally surprise me. Maybe I'll download a full race sometime and watch it. Are there any big ones coming up that I could look out for?
User avatar
Tortoise
Posts: 367
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:24 am
Location: San Jose

Post by Tortoise »

I watch F1 mostly for the technology that is in the cars. Some of what goes into F1 cars eventually will end up in production cars 10 years down the road.

Speed Channel's Racing Per Matchett (RPM) sequences where Steve Matchett talks to F1 engineers are interesting to me, even though they are a bit dumbed down. Matchett often points out interesting technology tidbits and comparisons among the cars during a race, as well.

My wife, who is also an engineer with more degrees than me, wonders why I am such a gear head. She did learn who Michael Schumacher was from seeing him in post-race interviews. She was proud of herself that she knew his voice when the Ferrarri drove into Luigi's tire shop in the movie, Cars.
"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest." --Mark Twain
DSInvestor
Posts: 11647
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:42 am

Post by DSInvestor »

GammaPoint wrote: Well, I guess that depends on what you mean by "fitness" level, which I typically correlate with health benefits of an activity. Does enduring high g loads, performing in a cramped hot space, or driving on different surfaces next to other drivers make you any more healthy as an individual? That may take training and experience (i.e., talent), but I wouldn't call it "fitness". Perhaps there is some genetic component to that though, and I could see how it would take practice. I know I probably wouldn't sit in an F1 car without the comfort of a diaper.
F1 drivers maintain a very high heart rate (185-190) for 90+ minutes during a race. There's lots of preparation and training involved to get the athlete ready to perform on race day whether it is a F1 driver, 100m sprinter or skeleton.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 980337.stm
"A good way to describe how fit we need to be is to say that each race we run a marathon but we cannot afford to get tired," explains Kovalainen.
<<snip>>

"Our job is to drive on average one-and-a-half days a week throughout the year, but the rest of the time is spent preparing for that.

"If we were not athletes, we'd just turn up and race, but if you are not physically and mentally prepared you cannot be successful in Formula One."
User avatar
ddb
Posts: 5511
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:37 am
Location: American Gardens Building, West 81st St.

Post by ddb »

eucalyptus wrote:Money indeed plays a significant role in determining who gets a shot at racing success. It plays a similar role in virtually every sport, though more so in racing than some others.
Well, most of the Winter Olympic sports aside, I disagree with you there. Track & field, soccer, basketball, football, and baseball all have very low barriers to entry, and money is not at all an issue. I'd be curious to compare, say, the median inflation-adjusted household income of the average top-league soccer player (or NBA player, or whatever) when he was 10 compared to the same for the average F1 driver.
Virtually no one in the US cares about F1, and I don't see that changing. American don't really get sportscar and single seater racing, for which there is a very broad and substantial fan base in places like the UK. Different strokes ....
I think Americans will flock to any sport where their own league and/or countrymen are the best in the world (see: NASCAR, NBA, NFL, MLB). You'll never see much interest in any sport where the top athletes are primarily participating overseas (soccer, open-wheel racing, cricket, rugby). I don't really think it has anything to do with the particular sport or how the sport works.
Am I an F1 fan? I was watching the San Marino Grand Prix on May 1, 1994, and will never forget that day.
Wow, that must have been quite an experience. My closest friend growing up was of Brazilian descent, and I remember how devastated his father was following that race.

- DDB
"We have to encourage a return to traditional moral values. Most importantly, we have to promote general social concern, and less materialism in young people." - PB
jlq39
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:26 pm

Post by jlq39 »

I love F1 racing. It's funny because I grew up around racing in the South, and Stock Car Racing was the racing sport. I never knew much about other forms of racing until I got older. I only got into F1 a few years ago, after getting fed up with the direction NASCAR was taking with it's series. I even race myself on the local NASCAR circuits, so racing is something I love. I don't know many of my stock car racing peers that love F1, but I think for me, the love developed from the statistical and technical side of F1. I'm really looking forward to the upcoming season.
User avatar
Topic Author
Driver
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 3:18 pm

Post by Driver »

Good to see I'm not the only F1 fan. I've been watching since 1994. These past few years have been the most competitive that I can remember. I can't wait for the season to start. There are so many reasons to be excited (Schumi vs Alonso vs Hamilton vs Vettel, Ferrari vs McLaren vs Mercedes vs Red Bull, no refueling, the new teams, continual improvements on the cars at each race, etc).
Fear and Loathing
Posts: 1025
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 10:55 pm

Post by Fear and Loathing »

I love F1 - in my misspent youth (after flunking out of college) I spent the next 2 years hitchhiking through Europe following the F1 circuit and the WRC (or rather is equivalent back then).

I eventually went back to school and finished my Engineering Degree.
User avatar
Topic Author
Driver
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 3:18 pm

Post by Driver »

kb0fhp wrote:I love F1 - in my misspent youth (after flunking out of college) I spent the next 2 years hitchhiking through Europe following the F1 circuit and the WRC (or rather is equivalent back then).

I eventually went back to school and finished my Engineering Degree.
What was the most exciting to attend? F1 or the WRC?

I used to love watch the WRC on Speed when they used to cover all three days. I hope with Kimi and maybe Rossi headed there that this makes WRC more popular.
MWCA
Posts: 2820
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:21 pm
Location: A wonderful place

Post by MWCA »

Once in awhile I watch it. Im into Nascar mainly. I enjoy the precision of F1. However, I find that I enjoy the bump and grind of Nascar a bit more to my liking.
We are all worms. But I believe that I am a glow-worm.
User avatar
Topic Author
Driver
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 3:18 pm

Post by Driver »

I used to love watching NASCAR. Especially when Earnhardt Sr was around, but gradually I kept tuning in later and later until I'd finally only start watching the last 20 or so laps of the race.
MWCA
Posts: 2820
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:21 pm
Location: A wonderful place

Post by MWCA »

Driver wrote:I used to love watching NASCAR. Especially when Earnhardt Sr was around, but gradually I kept tuning in later and later until I'd finally only start watching the last 20 or so laps of the race.
Find a new driver. I enjoy watching Jeff Gordon. When he is done. Ill need me a new driver to follow. I got a few ;)
We are all worms. But I believe that I am a glow-worm.
User avatar
Topic Author
Driver
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 3:18 pm

Post by Driver »

Man I remember when it seemed like Gordon every weekend. I'm a Junior fan, but he's had a few tough years recently. Guess there is always Mark Martin.
Fear and Loathing
Posts: 1025
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 10:55 pm

Post by Fear and Loathing »

Driver wrote:
kb0fhp wrote:I love F1 - in my misspent youth (after flunking out of college) I spent the next 2 years hitchhiking through Europe following the F1 circuit and the WRC (or rather is equivalent back then).

I eventually went back to school and finished my Engineering Degree.
What was the most exciting to attend? F1 or the WRC?

I used to love watch the WRC on Speed when they used to cover all three days. I hope with Kimi and maybe Rossi headed there that this makes WRC more popular.
Formula one only because you saw the cars more often, instead on one corner or yump. HOWEVER, the WRC was more fun to bearound. The 24 hours of LeMans was a lot of fun....almost as much fun as the BOG at Watkins Glen.

NASCAR has absolutely no interest - while the engineering and telemetry systems are interesting - I always feel I have to wash myself after the event. Too many bubbas with too few teeth....
MWCA
Posts: 2820
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:21 pm
Location: A wonderful place

Post by MWCA »

Driver wrote:Man I remember when it seemed like Gordon every weekend. I'm a Junior fan, but he's had a few tough years recently. Guess there is always Mark Martin.
Lots of new drivers coming up. Look at it lately its been Jimmy Johnson ;) Old Jeff is still hanging in there. :)

Oh but I digress. This is a thread for the washed racing masses ;) Ill take my dirty Nascar talk outta here. Ya all have a nice day :)
We are all worms. But I believe that I am a glow-worm.
User avatar
TJAJ9
Posts: 1241
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:37 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by TJAJ9 »

I would just like to say that racing cars isn't a sport and race car drivers are not athletes. However, it does take skill and technique, in a similar way to bowling, playing pool or playing golf -- in which all three are not true sports, either.
eucalyptus wrote:The fitness level of an F1 driver exceeds that of say, a professional baseball player.
No way. That might be true for some of the designated hitters in baseball but the majority of MLB players are in much better physical shape than any F1 driver. They might not have the stamina of a soccer or basketball player, but don't be fooled. They train extremely hard and are very athletic. Those guys aren't getting paid 10, 20, 30+ million a year for nothing.
User avatar
ddb
Posts: 5511
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:37 am
Location: American Gardens Building, West 81st St.

Post by ddb »

TJAJ9 wrote:I would just like to say that racing cars isn't a sport and race car drivers are not athletes. However, it does take skill and technique, in a similar way to bowling, playing pool or playing golf -- in which all three are not true sports, either.
eucalyptus wrote:The fitness level of an F1 driver exceeds that of say, a professional baseball player.
No way. That might be true for some of the designated hitters in baseball but the majority of MLB players are in much better physical shape than any F1 driver. They might not have the stamina of a soccer or basketball player, but don't be fooled. They train extremely hard and are very athletic. Those guys aren't getting paid 10, 20, 30+ million a year for nothing.
A very small percentage of players are making $10 million per year or more. I'd dispute your claim that the majority of MLB player are in much better shape than any F1 driver. Soccer, on the other hand, I'd agree with your assessment.

- DDB
"We have to encourage a return to traditional moral values. Most importantly, we have to promote general social concern, and less materialism in young people." - PB
User avatar
Kenster1
Posts: 3225
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:50 pm

Post by Kenster1 »

Hey I used to be a fairly big fan of F1 and Indycar racing. You're right in that not many people here are knowledgeable about it. Part of that is because we are inundated with so much "American" sports here. I mean March is big College Basketball month and is a huge here. I don't even hear about F1 on the sporting news. I mean, when F1 raced here in the US --- there was barely any media attention.

A nearby spot I would like to see F1 is in Montreal. When I was in Canada -- people there are a bit more in tune to F1 racing. At least you could watch it on tv. All of my F1 conversations here in the US have been with foreigners living here (i.e. Europeans, Brazilians, Colombians, Japanese).

It was also fun seeing drivers move from one F1 to Indycar and vise-versa. I was pretty young but remember Nigel Mansell who I think was a F1 champion and also becoming a champion in Indycar. Loved watching Andretti and others in Indycars back when I was young. Andretti failed miserably in his attempt at F1 -- part of that too was that I think he underestimated the differences and didn't setup nearly enough practice time and test runs.

Yup I remember the big news of Senna -- it was tragic. Prost, Senna, Schumacher --- that was a great time.

But Schumacher was unbelievable in wet weather! When it's wet -- he's able to further separate from the competition. Definitely very tough to beat in wet weather.

The problem for a number of years was that it seemed uncompetitive and a bit boring -- you had Schumacher driving on a great Ferrari team and great engine.

Recently things have improved to where's quite a bit more competitive. The thing too is that a lot also depends on the massive millions pumped into the team.

F1 is going to have to deal with the massive rising costs and reduced sponsorships. Toyota and Honda already announced pulling out of F1. Didn't BMW also announced too that they are pulling out?
SURGEON GENERAL'S WARNING: Any overconfidence in your investing ability, willingness and need to take risk may be hazardous to your health.
User avatar
TJAJ9
Posts: 1241
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:37 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by TJAJ9 »

ddb wrote:
TJAJ9 wrote:I would just like to say that racing cars isn't a sport and race car drivers are not athletes. However, it does take skill and technique, in a similar way to bowling, playing pool or playing golf -- in which all three are not true sports, either.
eucalyptus wrote:The fitness level of an F1 driver exceeds that of say, a professional baseball player.
No way. That might be true for some of the designated hitters in baseball but the majority of MLB players are in much better physical shape than any F1 driver. They might not have the stamina of a soccer or basketball player, but don't be fooled. They train extremely hard and are very athletic. Those guys aren't getting paid 10, 20, 30+ million a year for nothing.
A very small percentage of players are making $10 million per year or more. I'd dispute your claim that the majority of MLB player are in much better shape than any F1 driver. Soccer, on the other hand, I'd agree with your assessment.

- DDB
True -- percentage wise, it is small, but there are still a lot of players making 10+ million a year, especially the good pitchers and power hitters.

What makes anyone think that F1 drivers are in such great shape? I don't see the logic. Race car drivers are constantly sitting down. There is no running, jumping, throwing or anything like that involved. :confused
Bored5000
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:47 pm

Post by Bored5000 »

TJAJ9 wrote:
ddb wrote:
TJAJ9 wrote:I would just like to say that racing cars isn't a sport and race car drivers are not athletes. However, it does take skill and technique, in a similar way to bowling, playing pool or playing golf -- in which all three are not true sports, either.
eucalyptus wrote:The fitness level of an F1 driver exceeds that of say, a professional baseball player.
No way. That might be true for some of the designated hitters in baseball but the majority of MLB players are in much better physical shape than any F1 driver. They might not have the stamina of a soccer or basketball player, but don't be fooled. They train extremely hard and are very athletic. Those guys aren't getting paid 10, 20, 30+ million a year for nothing.
A very small percentage of players are making $10 million per year or more. I'd dispute your claim that the majority of MLB player are in much better shape than any F1 driver. Soccer, on the other hand, I'd agree with your assessment.

- DDB
True -- percentage wise, it is small, but there are still a lot of players making 10+ million a year, especially the good pitchers and power hitters.

What makes anyone think that F1 drivers are in such great shape? I don't see the logic. Race car drivers are constantly sitting down. There is no running, jumping, throwing or anything like that involved. :confused
So you think racecar drivers don't ever work out to stay in top shape? Show me the F1 drivers that could be considered even borderline overweight; there are none. There are no drivers in Forumla One with the weight issues that some of the MLB pitchers or even a superstar like Manny Ramirez has.

You are really comparing salaries of top MLB players to those of top F1 drivers? Michael Schmacher earned $62 million in salary and another $17 million in endorsements in his last full season. When Schmacher retired, Kimi Raikkonen took over his Ferrari seat to the tune of $51 million a year.
Last edited by Bored5000 on Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:56 am, edited 6 times in total.
chuck h
Posts: 61
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:13 am

Post by chuck h »

I have watched F1, but prefer WRC.

The HDT channel will broadcast the WRC this year.
User avatar
TJAJ9
Posts: 1241
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:37 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by TJAJ9 »

Bored5000 wrote:
TJAJ9 wrote:
ddb wrote:
TJAJ9 wrote:I would just like to say that racing cars isn't a sport and race car drivers are not athletes. However, it does take skill and technique, in a similar way to bowling, playing pool or playing golf -- in which all three are not true sports, either.
eucalyptus wrote:The fitness level of an F1 driver exceeds that of say, a professional baseball player.
No way. That might be true for some of the designated hitters in baseball but the majority of MLB players are in much better physical shape than any F1 driver. They might not have the stamina of a soccer or basketball player, but don't be fooled. They train extremely hard and are very athletic. Those guys aren't getting paid 10, 20, 30+ million a year for nothing.
A very small percentage of players are making $10 million per year or more. I'd dispute your claim that the majority of MLB player are in much better shape than any F1 driver. Soccer, on the other hand, I'd agree with your assessment.

- DDB
True -- percentage wise, it is small, but there are still a lot of players making 10+ million a year, especially the good pitchers and power hitters.

What makes anyone think that F1 drivers are in such great shape? I don't see the logic. Race car drivers are constantly sitting down. There is no running, jumping, throwing or anything like that involved. :confused
So you think racecar drivers don't ever work out to stay in top shape? Show me the F1 drivers that could be considered even borderline overweight; there are none. There are no drivers in Forumla One with the weight issues that some of the pitchers in MLB baseball have.
Some of them might work out, but not all of them do. Let's be realistic -- working out isn't a necessity for racing a car like it is for real sports like basketball, soccer or hockey. You're driving a car -- the car isn't driving you. :roll:

Pitchers have mainly one job and that is to throw the ball. Take a look at the infielders and outfielders. They are mostly in great shape. They are strong, athletic and agile. I'd love to see a race car driver chase down a fly ball or try to steal a base... :lol:
Last edited by TJAJ9 on Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bored5000
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:47 pm

Post by Bored5000 »

TJAJ9 wrote:
Bored5000 wrote:
TJAJ9 wrote:
ddb wrote:
TJAJ9 wrote:I would just like to say that racing cars isn't a sport and race car drivers are not athletes. However, it does take skill and technique, in a similar way to bowling, playing pool or playing golf -- in which all three are not true sports, either.
No way. That might be true for some of the designated hitters in baseball but the majority of MLB players are in much better physical shape than any F1 driver. They might not have the stamina of a soccer or basketball player, but don't be fooled. They train extremely hard and are very athletic. Those guys aren't getting paid 10, 20, 30+ million a year for nothing.
A very small percentage of players are making $10 million per year or more. I'd dispute your claim that the majority of MLB player are in much better shape than any F1 driver. Soccer, on the other hand, I'd agree with your assessment.

- DDB
True -- percentage wise, it is small, but there are still a lot of players making 10+ million a year, especially the good pitchers and power hitters.

What makes anyone think that F1 drivers are in such great shape? I don't see the logic. Race car drivers are constantly sitting down. There is no running, jumping, throwing or anything like that involved. :confused
So you think racecar drivers don't ever work out to stay in top shape? Show me the F1 drivers that could be considered even borderline overweight; there are none. There are no drivers in Forumla One with the weight issues that some of the pitchers in MLB baseball have.
Some of them might work out, but not all of them do. Let's be realistic -- working out isn't a necessity for racing a car like it is for real sports like basektball, soccer or hockey. You're driving a car -- the car isn't driving you. :roll:

Pitchers have mainly one job and that is to throw the ball. Take a look at the infielders and outfielders. They are mostly in great shape. They are strong, athletic and agile. I'd love to see a race car driver chase down a fly ball or try to steal a base...
So you take the examples you are given and dismiss them because they contrast with your point of view? In your earlier post, you said "the majority of MLB players," but now pitchers don't count? Nearly half the roster of a major league team are pitchers.

Not get into a big argument about this, but show me the F1 driver out of shape like a Manny Ramirez is; he's not a pitcher. Your posts read like that of a stick and ball fan that refuses to even consider that participants in other sports can be just as athletic or fit. It is silly to claim that only baseball or basketball or hockey are "real sports."
eucalyptus
Posts: 746
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:24 pm

Post by eucalyptus »

"I would just like to say that racing cars isn't a sport and race car drivers are not athletes."


I hear this occasionally. I think it comes from the belief that driving a race car is like driving a street car, only faster. Ever had a ride in a race car? Driven a car at speed on an oval or road course? You cannot imagine the stresses on one's body in a modern F1 car, it requires very significant upper body/neck strength and aerobic conditioning. Simply holding your head upright for an extended time becomes very difficult.

As for skills involved, even if you could learn to keep such a car going for a single lap - simply operating the car's basic controls - you wouldn't be able to drive it fast enough to get its brakes warmed to operating temperature. And you might not ever be able to, even with a lot of practice. Not talking about racing one, just talking about driving it at a proper speed. I suspect you can bowl, play a casual baseball game, shoot some pool or play a round of golf and, if not, you could learn to play a friendly game.

Just talking about modern F1 cars now. The older cars were much easier to drive, just ask the many guys who died trying.


I think golf is a beautiful, challenging game. I grew up watching baseball, in person (the National League, of course!). I'd imagine everyone has a different answer to the "what's a sport" question. To me, an activity needs to have a pervasive element of extreme personal exertion, and/or personal risk, to be a "sport." Baseball and basketball don't cut it, to me; they require great fitness and strength and skill, and the people who do them well are amazing to watch, but there's something visceral missing.
User avatar
TJAJ9
Posts: 1241
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:37 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by TJAJ9 »

Bored5000 wrote:
TJAJ9 wrote:
Bored5000 wrote:
TJAJ9 wrote:
ddb wrote: A very small percentage of players are making $10 million per year or more. I'd dispute your claim that the majority of MLB player are in much better shape than any F1 driver. Soccer, on the other hand, I'd agree with your assessment.

- DDB
True -- percentage wise, it is small, but there are still a lot of players making 10+ million a year, especially the good pitchers and power hitters.

What makes anyone think that F1 drivers are in such great shape? I don't see the logic. Race car drivers are constantly sitting down. There is no running, jumping, throwing or anything like that involved. :confused
So you think racecar drivers don't ever work out to stay in top shape? Show me the F1 drivers that could be considered even borderline overweight; there are none. There are no drivers in Forumla One with the weight issues that some of the pitchers in MLB baseball have.
Some of them might work out, but not all of them do. Let's be realistic -- working out isn't a necessity for racing a car like it is for real sports like basektball, soccer or hockey. You're driving a car -- the car isn't driving you. :roll:

Pitchers have mainly one job and that is to throw the ball. Take a look at the infielders and outfielders. They are mostly in great shape. They are strong, athletic and agile. I'd love to see a race car driver chase down a fly ball or try to steal a base...
So you take the examples you are given and dismiss them because they contrast with your point of view? In your earlier post, you said "the majority of MLB players," but now pitchers don't count? Nearly half the roster of a major league team are pitchers.

Not get into a big argument about this, but show me the F1 driver out of shape like a Manny Ramirez is; he's not a pitcher. Your posts read like that of a stick and ball fan that refuses to even consider that participants in other sports can be just as athletic or fit. It is silly to claim that only baseball or basketball or hockey are "real sports."
Pitchers count. The majority of them are in good shape, also. I was simply saying that you are more likely to find an out of shape pitcher compared to someone who is playing another position like shortstop, second base or center field, for example.

I'm not just talking about F1 drivers. I'm referring to all people who race cars in general. Racing cars is not a sport to me. It's all a matter of opinion. Something involving a person sitting in a seat just can't be a sport in my opinion, sorry.
User avatar
TJAJ9
Posts: 1241
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:37 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by TJAJ9 »

eucalyptus wrote:"I would just like to say that racing cars isn't a sport and race car drivers are not athletes."


I hear this occasionally. I think it comes from the belief that driving a race car is like driving a street car, only faster. Ever had a ride in a race car? Driven a car at speed on an oval or road course? You cannot imagine the stresses on one's body in a modern F1 car, it requires very significant upper body/neck strength and aerobic conditioning. Simply holding your head upright for an extended time becomes very difficult.

As for skills involved, even if you could learn to keep such a car going for a single lap - simply operating the car's basic controls - you wouldn't be able to drive it fast enough to get its brakes warmed to operating temperature. And you might not ever be able to, even with a lot of practice. Not talking about racing one, just talking about driving it at a proper speed. I suspect you can bowl, play a casual baseball game, shoot some pool or play a round of golf and, if not, you could learn to play a friendly game.

Just talking about modern F1 cars now. The older cars were much easier to drive, just ask the many guys who died trying.
I never said racing a car was easy. It does require some technique and I'm sure the drivers get tired but that doesn't make it a sport.

I know some people who do manual demolition on buildings and some people who dig graves by hand with a shovel. They are both extremely exerting jobs. Should they be considered sports? You could have a competition to see who can dig a grave the fastest.

Both of those jobs are actually more physical than driving a race car.
Last edited by TJAJ9 on Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bored5000
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:47 pm

Post by Bored5000 »

TJAJ9 wrote:
eucalyptus wrote:"I would just like to say that racing cars isn't a sport and race car drivers are not athletes."


I hear this occasionally. I think it comes from the belief that driving a race car is like driving a street car, only faster. Ever had a ride in a race car? Driven a car at speed on an oval or road course? You cannot imagine the stresses on one's body in a modern F1 car, it requires very significant upper body/neck strength and aerobic conditioning. Simply holding your head upright for an extended time becomes very difficult.

As for skills involved, even if you could learn to keep such a car going for a single lap - simply operating the car's basic controls - you wouldn't be able to drive it fast enough to get its brakes warmed to operating temperature. And you might not ever be able to, even with a lot of practice. Not talking about racing one, just talking about driving it at a proper speed. I suspect you can bowl, play a casual baseball game, shoot some pool or play a round of golf and, if not, you could learn to play a friendly game.

Just talking about modern F1 cars now. The older cars were much easier to drive, just ask the many guys who died trying.
I never said racing a car was easy. It does require some technique and I'm sure the drivers get tired but that doesn't make it a sport.

I know some people who do manual demolition on buildings and some people who dig graves by hand with a shovel. They are both extremely exerting jobs. Should they be considered sports?
Your posts seem as though you are going to the absurd just for the sake of wanting to be argumentative.
User avatar
xystici
Posts: 320
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:40 pm
Location: San Diego, Boston & Barcelona

Post by xystici »

Here is the countdown for the first GP of the season:

BAHRAIN | Sakhir
12,13,14 March 2010
FRI Practice 1 in:
06D 15H 33M 14S

Cannot wait...

Go Fernando Alonso...
User avatar
TJAJ9
Posts: 1241
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:37 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by TJAJ9 »

User avatar
TJAJ9
Posts: 1241
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:37 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by TJAJ9 »

I'm going to make up a new rule of thumb for deciding if something is a sport or not. Sort of like Jack Bogle's "age in bonds."

Here it goes:

1) "If you're sitting in a seat, it's not a sport." (Racing cars.)

Number 2 and 3 will follow later on. :arrow:
User avatar
ddb
Posts: 5511
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:37 am
Location: American Gardens Building, West 81st St.

Post by ddb »

TJAJ9 wrote:I'm going to make up a new rule of thumb for deciding if something is a sport or not. Sort of like Jack Bogle's "age in bonds."

Here it goes:

1) "If you're sitting in a seat, it's not a sport." (Racing cars.)

Number 2 and 3 will follow later on. :arrow:
Careful with #1, you rule out all wheelchair athletes, many of whom are some of the most impressive athletes I've ever seen.

- DDB
"We have to encourage a return to traditional moral values. Most importantly, we have to promote general social concern, and less materialism in young people." - PB
nickbelane
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:01 am

Post by nickbelane »

It's pointless arguing whether car racing is a sport or not - it all depends on ones interpretation of the definition of sport.

However, there is absolutely no question that modern F1 drivers are top level athletes in any sense of the word. Driving an F1 car, a driver experiences loads of up to 5g's during braking, 4g's sideways left or right in several turns per lap, and up to 2g's forward during acceleration. Imagine up to 5 times your body weight throwing your around back, left, forward, back, right, forward, etc, over and over for hours at a time (there are endurance races as long as as 24 hours)

While you are under this extreme physical stress, your mental concentration and precision control over your race car has to be continuously maintained at the highest level as you are constantly dancing on the limits of yours and your cars capability, where death is a possible consequence of even a smallest mistake (imagine trying to shave yourself with a straight razor while riding a rollercoaster - that's the kind of concentration you require to drive an F1 car at the limit).

F1 driver sustains an average heart rate of over 170 bpm during the entire 2 hour race - that's unmatched in nearly any other sport (baseball is not even a contender - it's 90 percent standing around, or sitting on a bench).

On top of all this, the drivers wear 4 layer fireproof nomex suits and helmets, in as much as 130 degrees F cockpit temperature, and can lose as much as 9 lbs in sweat during a single race.

The closest analogy would be that of a fighter pilot - sure your average commercial airliner pilot might not require above average fitness level, and neither does your school bus driver - however fighter pilots much like F1 drivers are a very different story.
User avatar
Topic Author
Driver
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 3:18 pm

Post by Driver »

I definately think F1 racing is a sport. Infact it's one of the few major sports (revenue wise) that the contestants do not get to rest. Baseball, Basketball, Football and even Soccer all have moments when their contestants get to rest in the form of a timeout or half time. F1 drivers don't. The pitstops will be under 4 seconds this year and there is hardly a time when a safety car comes out.
dokeeffe
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:15 pm

Real sports

Post by dokeeffe »

As the apocryphal Ernest Hemingway quote has it "Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games."
SpaceMonkey
Posts: 191
Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 12:19 am

Post by SpaceMonkey »

TJAJ9 wrote:I'm going to make up a new rule of thumb for deciding if something is a sport or not. Sort of like Jack Bogle's "age in bonds."

Here it goes:

1) "If you're sitting in a seat, it's not a sport." (Racing cars.)

Number 2 and 3 will follow later on. :arrow:
What about cyclists?
ThatGuy
Posts: 1002
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:00 am

Post by ThatGuy »

ddb wrote:
TJAJ9 wrote:I'm going to make up a new rule of thumb for deciding if something is a sport or not. Sort of like Jack Bogle's "age in bonds."

Here it goes:

1) "If you're sitting in a seat, it's not a sport." (Racing cars.)

Number 2 and 3 will follow later on. :arrow:
Careful with #1, you rule out all wheelchair athletes, many of whom are some of the most impressive athletes I've ever seen.

- DDB
My personal litmus test, which I submit for derision, is as follows:

For an activity to be considered a sport, the human must expend more energy than anything else involved in the activity. Additionally, there must be simultaneous opposition from another human.

As such, baseball would not count, since there is no simultaneous opposition. Nor would Polo, Auto Racing, or any other game or activity.
Work is the curse of the drinking class - Oscar Wilde
eucalyptus
Posts: 746
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:24 pm

Post by eucalyptus »

What sites do you enjoy for F1 news? I know of these:

espn f1
itv f1
atlas f1
f1technical
newsonf1
patronise f1
pitpass
planetf1
speed tv f1

Others?
User avatar
SecretAsianMan
Posts: 656
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:46 am

Post by SecretAsianMan »

ThatGuy wrote:
ddb wrote:
TJAJ9 wrote:I'm going to make up a new rule of thumb for deciding if something is a sport or not. Sort of like Jack Bogle's "age in bonds."

Here it goes:

1) "If you're sitting in a seat, it's not a sport." (Racing cars.)

Number 2 and 3 will follow later on. :arrow:
Careful with #1, you rule out all wheelchair athletes, many of whom are some of the most impressive athletes I've ever seen.

- DDB
My personal litmus test, which I submit for derision, is as follows:

For an activity to be considered a sport, the human must expend more energy than anything else involved in the activity. Additionally, there must be simultaneous opposition from another human.

As such, baseball would not count, since there is no simultaneous opposition. Nor would Polo, Auto Racing, or any other game or activity.
I don't understand why baseball would not count under your definition. Just because the opposing players are doing different things does not mean there is not simultaneous opposition. The offensive player(s) are on the field at the same time as the defensive players. The defensive players are actively trying to keep the offensive players from scoring. How is that not simultaneous opposition?

SAM
User avatar
Random Musings
Posts: 6770
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:24 pm
Location: Pennsylvania

Post by Random Musings »

Driver wrote:
Are there any bogleheads that are F1 fans?
Personally, I'm a big fan of the F4 key in Excel...

RM
ThatGuy
Posts: 1002
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:00 am

Post by ThatGuy »

SecretAsianMan wrote:I don't understand why baseball would not count under your definition. Just because the opposing players are doing different things does not mean there is not simultaneous opposition. The offensive player(s) are on the field at the same time as the defensive players. The defensive players are actively trying to keep the offensive players from scoring. How is that not simultaneous opposition?

SAM
Because there is not simultaneous action. The pitcher throws the ball, THEN the batter swings, THEN the outfielders do something. The most physical contact they get is a brush of a glove.

In a real sport, like soccer or basketball, defense happens at the exact same time as offense, and they use their whole bodies. Suffice to say, most Olympic sports are not sports as far as I'm concerned.

I'm also curious why an elevated heart rate is being used as evidence of a sport. Many rock drummers sustain 180 bpm during performances, yet that's not considered a sport. Singers put their bodies through hell cranking out those last few microns of breath and conditioning their diaphragm. Not to mention how hard it is on the body to lead a "rock 'n roll lifestyle."
Last edited by ThatGuy on Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Work is the curse of the drinking class - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
xystici
Posts: 320
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:40 pm
Location: San Diego, Boston & Barcelona

Post by xystici »

eucalyptus wrote:What sites do you enjoy for F1 news? I know of these:

espn f1
itv f1
atlas f1
f1technical
newsonf1
patronise f1
pitpass
planetf1
speed tv f1

Others?
I like ferrari or fernandoalonso :lol: (just kidding)

Great sites you included on your post. I personally prefer to read general online sport news from different countries in Europe to stay informed (specially from the UK, Spain and Italy).
User avatar
Tortoise
Posts: 367
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:24 am
Location: San Jose

Post by Tortoise »

ThatGuy wrote:My personal litmus test, which I submit for derision, is as follows:

For an activity to be considered a sport, the human must expend more energy than anything else involved in the activity. Additionally, there must be simultaneous opposition from another human.

As such, baseball would not count, since there is no simultaneous opposition. Nor would Polo, Auto Racing, or any other game or activity.
Chess is a sport, then. Both players are expending all their energy thinking of their next move(s) for the duration of the match. They expend much more energy than the pieces on the board. Constant thinking and updates of strategy by both players constitutes simultaneous opposition.
"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest." --Mark Twain
ThatGuy
Posts: 1002
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:00 am

Post by ThatGuy »

Equating the act of thinking to opposition, is a rather large stretch. Read the above post about action. I'll give you chess boxing, however.
Work is the curse of the drinking class - Oscar Wilde
Post Reply