PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

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lasp506
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PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by lasp506 »

I read a bunch of nonfiction books on Politics, History, International Relation / Diplomacy, Literature, etc. but the one thing I could not get my head around is PHILOSOPHY.

Whenever I try to read a philosophy book (especially if it is written in a Socratic dialogue), I fail to understand the point the book is making and I stop reading it after 10 pages.

Reading about the philosophy of a philosopher puts me to sleep.

Some exceptions are John Stuart Mill, Thomas Kuhn, Karl Popper, Ayn Rand, etc. because I can relate to the material these philosophers are discussing.

How can I learn to read (and understand!) philosophy books (especially the Greeks)?

Do you know a website, YouTube channel, Coursera, Khan academy, etc. course or video that I can look into?

Thanks!!
Last edited by lasp506 on Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
kurious
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by kurious »

Some ideas:

1. Start with "A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy" by William B. Irvine. Then build on it.
2. Read Taleb. You'll get a lot of philosophy condensed into digestible bits in a manner that one can internalize with a little bit of effort. Then build on it.
3. "How to Read a Book: The Classic Guide to Intelligent Reading" by Mortimer J. Adler. Pretty much the only book one needs to learn how to read
4. "Learning How to Learn: Powerful mental tools to help you master tough subjects" by Barbara Oakley. The Coursera course is quite good.
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climber2020
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by climber2020 »

Philosophy is a difficult subject to learn on your own. Many of the great philosophers had fascinating ideas that were marred by atrocious writing ability. Immanuel Kant is a good example.

For me, I had to take classes in college before I had a decent understanding of what they were trying to say. Tried reading some books on my own before that, and it didn't go so well.

If I were attempting to learn the subject now, I'd search for a class to take locally.
drk
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by drk »

I highly recommend the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, both as introductory material and as a reading companion.
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Dusn
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by Dusn »

For Aristotle we just have translated pieces of his students lecture notes that have survived. I’m sure much of his teachings were ground breaking at the time but I personally find more
modern philosophy or non-western philosophy more interesting. Maybe because the Ancient Greek teachings are so entrenched in our world view already — they just feel like common sense.

khan academy is free but if your willing to pay a little bit Wondrium is a also great online resource.
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lasp506
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by lasp506 »

Thank you to those who committed, especially kurious!
kevinpet
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by kevinpet »

To start, I recommend Russell A History Of Western Philosophy and Durant The Story of Philosophy..

You'll need to find what parts of philosophy interest you.

I like:
Ayer Language Truth and Logic
Ayer (ed) Logical Positivism
Marcus Aurelius Meditations
Epictetus Handbook aka Encheiridion

Of modern authors, Dennett's Darwin's Dangerous Idea is good (more science than philosophy maybe). Kuhn's Copernican Revolution and The Structure of Scientific Revolutions are modern classics.
Last edited by kevinpet on Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AnnetteLouisan
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

Tom Wolfe’s novel about the real estate industry in Atlanta in the early 2000s, titled A Man in Full, is riveting and incudes frequent references to the meaning of some major Greek philosophers’ thinking, applied to modern day situations.

Kierkegaard’s “Either/Or” is good (and short).

Hesse’s Narcissus and Goldmund might not be philosophy strictly speaking but it discusses philosophical themes in a relatable way.
CletusCaddy
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by CletusCaddy »

The Knowledge Machine by Michael Strevens is an accessible overview of the philosophy of science

The Philosophy of Social Science by Hollis is likewise a good introduction

Finally, The Interpretation of Cultures by Geertz is a classic of cultural anthropology with strong philosophical themes
leehamster
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by leehamster »

kevinpet wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:30 pm Durant The Story of Philosophy..
I second this Durant book as a relatively coherent overview of Western philosophy.

Also, the suggestion above to take a lecture course, if you want to dabble in writers that are hard to read on their own.

I also would go further and suggest you only read authors and topics that interest you. My experience with philosophy is that many questions and topics became too esoteric for me 100 or more years ago. Philosophy is a study that can get stuck chasing its own tail.
jaqueisse
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by jaqueisse »

If you are interested in practical spiritual philosophy in dealing with life's issues, I found this group's podcast of talks to be quite helpful

https://anchor.fm/wny-mindfulness
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Cranberry44
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by Cranberry44 »

Search YouTube for Bryan Magee. He had a couple of TV shows in the UK in which he just interviewed philosophers about philosophers. He also authored a great coffee-table-like book called something like “the story of philosophy” that I think is great. Bryan was a master at clearly illustrating complex ideas with infectious enthusiasm. The dust jacket of his memoir referred to him as “the Carl Sagan of philosophy” if I recall correctly.
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Cranberry44
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by Cranberry44 »

Philosophy Bites is also a great podcast by well respected academic philosophers in the UK. All the episodes are super short and digestible.

The Great Courses also has some fantastic philosophy courses. I don’t have access to my audible account at the moment, but will report back with a few I really enjoyed. I loved the ones by Robert Solomon on Existentialism and Nietzsche.
cholan
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by cholan »

...leaving not a rack behind.
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Beensabu
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by Beensabu »

Have you read Sophie's World? It's a great intro. Not so heavy.
"The only thing that makes life possible is permanent, intolerable uncertainty; not knowing what comes next." ~Ursula LeGuin
cs412a
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by cs412a »

climber2020 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:26 pmPhilosophy is a difficult subject to learn on your own. Many of the great philosophers had fascinating ideas that were marred by atrocious writing ability. Immanuel Kant is a good example.

For me, I had to take classes in college before I had a decent understanding of what they were trying to say. Tried reading some books on my own before that, and it didn't go so well.

If I were attempting to learn the subject now, I'd search for a class to take locally.
^^This.

In the preface to Kant's Critique of Pure Reason, he acknowledges that the reader has a right to demand clarity in the form of examples and illustrations of concepts, and states that he originally included them to make it easier for the reader to understand his ideas - but that he removed them because it would make his book too long and he didn't care whether most people were able to understand what he wrote :oops: :

"As regards clearness, the reader has a right to demand, in the first place, discursive or logical clearness, that is, on the basis of conceptions, and, secondly, intuitive or æsthetic clearness, by means of intuitions, that is, by examples or other modes of illustration in concreto . . . . Examples and illustrations always appeared to me necessary, and, in the first sketch of the Critique, naturally fell into their proper places. But I very soon became aware of the magnitude of my task, and the numerous problems with which I should be engaged; and, as I perceived that this critical investigation would, even if delivered in the driest scholastic manner, be far from being brief, I found it unadvisable to enlarge it still more with examples and explanations, which are necessary only from a popular point of view." (Critique of Pure Reason, A xviii). :twisted:

For the tldr version of a number of philosophical works, there's always Philosophy Bro: https://philosophybro.squarespace.com/.

Here's his summary of Kant's "Groundwork for the Metaphysics of Morals, Chapter 1": https://philosophybro.squarespace.com/a ... physics-of

Here's his summary of Aristotle's Book I of the Nicomachean Ethics: https://www.philosophybro.com/archive/a ... s-book-i-a

An online class might work well. Reading philosophy is more fun if you can discuss it with other people, anyway.
deserat
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by deserat »

I second or third the idea of a college class. I did just that when I was in my mid 30s as I was I interested in something other than engineering (I already had 2 degrees in that and was working in it). I took an intro to philosophy community college course which basically covered the history of philosophy with selected readings from the different eras and philosophers. It gave a baseline from which to expand my personal readings in the subject from there on. I find I prefer practical philosophy the most, but have ventured a bit into some of the more esoteric stuff every now and then. What has really fascinated me recently has been the ability with some of the latest biomedical imaging technogies to measure the timing of decision making to try and prove or disprove the idea of free will in man. It amazes me that some of the ancient philosophers and thinkers were able to postulate philosophic ideas that we are now able to prove, which suggests to me they were phenomenal thinkers indeed.

Best of luck on your journey.
Greentree
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by Greentree »

kurious wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:17 pm Some ideas:

1. Start with "A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy" by William B. Irvine. Then build on it.
2. Read Taleb. You'll get a lot of philosophy condensed into digestible bits in a manner that one can internalize with a little bit of effort. Then build on it.
3. "How to Read a Book: The Classic Guide to Intelligent Reading" by Mortimer J. Adler. Pretty much the only book one needs to learn how to read
4. "Learning How to Learn: Powerful mental tools to help you master tough subjects" by Barbara Oakley. The Coursera course is quite good.
I think you need to read a range of philosophies, see what resonates with you and then dive in.
A Guide to the Good Life is excellent. I've since read many more books on Stoicism, which I've heard equated to Buddhism in action. The other Stoic books I've liked are written by Ryan Holiday.
"The Art of Happiness" by Dalai Lama and Cutler is also high on my list.
These books clearly state their philosophy, so you can at least figure out if it appeals to you.
deserat
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by deserat »

cs412a wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:50 pm
climber2020 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:26 pmPhilosophy is a difficult subject to learn on your own. Many of the great philosophers had fascinating ideas that were marred by atrocious writing ability. Immanuel Kant is a good example.

For me, I had to take classes in college before I had a decent understanding of what they were trying to say. Tried reading some books on my own before that, and it didn't go so well.

If I were attempting to learn the subject now, I'd search for a class to take locally.
For the tldr version of a number of philosophical works, there's always Philosophy Bro: https://philosophybro.squarespace.com/.

Here's his summary of Kant's "Groundwork for the Metaphysics of Morals, Chapter 1": https://philosophybro.squarespace.com/a ... physics-of

Here's his summary of Aristotle's Book I of the Nicomachean Ethics: https://www.philosophybro.com/archive/a ... s-book-i-a

An online class might work well. Reading philosophy is more fun if you can discuss it with other people, anyway.
Those philosophy bro links are hilarious, but fairly good overviews of the ideas presented by the different philosophers. His language is a bit raw, but the underlying reasoning with his examples is sound. Thanks for posting.
rockAction
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by rockAction »

Nietzsche writes with an absolute fire that is unmatched, imo. I took a Nietzsche grad course several years ago, which set me off on a life mission to tackle everything he ever wrote. He's exciting, vicious, powerful, paradoxical, funny, provocative, and just incredibly interesting. His autobiography, Ecce Homo, is a pretty decent place to start with him, as he briefly describes each of his previous works and what he was trying to do with them. It's very short and readable, and will give you some idea of what his philosophy is all about.
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Beehave
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by Beehave »

It looks like you have tried studying individual philosophers through their writings, and that this method has not resonated with you.

An alternative is to get an intro college-level text that covers major philosophers in chronological order while providing a context of the contemporary political, economic, technological, scientific forces at play during their times.

I've tried both ways, and the second, which provides context, works much better for me.

I'm familiar with one such text, "Archetypes of Wisdom" by Soccio. Every text of this nature has flaws. Nevertheless, finding one you like will provide a basic context that's helpful before jumping into the original writings.
chiliagon
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by chiliagon »

Philosophy professor here. If you understand John Stuart Mill, that is pretty good. He is not an easy read.

Students in intro classes tend to understand Descartes's Meditations well. They have trouble with Meditation #3, but they generally "get" the other five.

With Kant, it's true that the Critique of Pure Reason is really hard to understand. But the Groundwork is not that hard to understand. Go slowly. If you can understand Mill, you can probably understand Kant's Groundwork by going slowly. For that matter, if you can understand Mill by going slowly, you can probably also understand Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics by going slowly and Hume's Inquiry Concerning Human Understanding by going slowly.

Augustine's Confessions is another one that students tend to understand well. If you're religiously inclined, you might like it. If not, probably not. It's a life-story combined with lots of theology and philosophy. It was actually the book that first made me like philosophy. I had to read it in high school.

Camus's "The Myth of Sisyphus" is a little hard, but students generally like that one too. They also tend to like Sartre's "Existentialism is a Humanism."

I'd have to think more about contemporary philosophers before suggesting any. I haven't read many contemporary philosophers who are writing for a general audience. (I do read lots of current philosophy, but it's usually somewhat technical and not intended for a general audience.)

One last thought: The Very Short Introduction books by Oxford are great (in my opinion). They have tons of philosophers covered in that series. Running through those books might be easier than reading primary sources (i.e., the philosophers themselves). Or you could combine the two: you could read a primary source and the Very Short Introduction book on that philosopher together. That might be the best approach. Also, for contemporary philosophical debates and topics, this Oxford series is great.
chiliagon
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by chiliagon »

One more thought: Since you asked specifically about the Greeks, you might try W.K.C. Guthrie's The Greek Philosophers. It's pretty easy to read and very well written. It will help you in understanding Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle. I have used this one in teaching Intro to Ancient and Medieval Philosophy to students before and it went over well.
Sagenick48
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by Sagenick48 »

Try the “great courses”. If you listen to a lecture enough times it starts to sink in, otherwise it is just gibberish. Most of it is just about definitions.
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by finite_difference »

“Problems that remain persistently insoluble should always be suspected as questions asked in the wrong way.” – Alan Watts

If Greek philosophy doesn’t make sense to you, maybe it’s because it doesn’t make sense?

In my opinion, philosophy would be much better served if it taught more Vasubandhu and less Descartes, Hume, Kant and Freud.

I suggest reading DC Lau’s translation of the Tao Te Ching. The Book of Chang Tzu. Allan Watts’s Tao, The Watercourse Way. Thich Nhat Hahn’s Understanding Our Mind.

“Life and love generate effort, but effort will not generate them. Faith in life, in other people, and in oneself, is the attitude of allowing the spontaneous to be spontaneous, in its own way and in its own time.” – Alan Watts
The most precious gift we can offer anyone is our attention. - Thich Nhat Hanh
Valuethinker
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by Valuethinker »

lasp506 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:58 pm I read a bunch of nonfiction books on Politics, History, International Relation / Diplomacy, Literature, etc. but the one thing I could not get my head around is PHILOSOPHY.

Whenever I try to read a philosophy book (especially if it is written in a Socratic dialogue), I fail to understand the point the book is making and I stop reading it after 10 pages.

Reading about the philosophy of a philosopher puts me to sleep.

Some exceptions are John Stuart Mill, Thomas Kuhn, Karl Popper, Ayn Rand, etc. because I can relate to the material these philosophers are discussing.

How can I learn to read (and understand!) philosophy books (especially the Greeks)?

Do you know a website, YouTube channel, Coursera, Khan academy, etc. course or video that I can look into?

Thanks!!
The Great Courses has several offerings. You can read the reviews online, and some of the posters are very detailed and thoughtful in their critiques. I find their ratings really useful. And they have some great teachers.

(for example: their 2 highest ratings courses were, I believe, one on Astronomy (haven't tackled that yet, it's a forbidding 104 30 minute lectures). And one on Structures (civil engineering) by a Professor Emeritus from West Point, Col Steven van Rensler (sp?).

The Structures one was completely riveting. Just amazing. I learned so much (and regretted my father's demise even the more - he was a civil engineer and there is so much I would like to have asked him). I'd never look at a bridge or a building again without thinking of it).
alfaspider
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by alfaspider »

I was a philosophy major in college. I think the core foundation of a Western philosophy curriculum would be the following:

1) Greek philosophy (which is mostly Plato and Aristotle). Sounds like you've done some engagement with the Greeks. Don't be afraid to read summaries and annotations of these. While our modern culture has incorporated a lot of foundational things from ancient Greece, there are some aspects of these texts that presume a cultural framework a contemporary reader simply doesn't have. Scholars can fill this in to a degree, and can also explain some ambiguities in translation. Aristotle is generally more straightforward but less literary and in my opinion much less fun to read (likely because his works in existence today are just compiled lecture notes).

2) "History of Modern Philosophy." "Modern" really means enlightenment through the 19th century in this case (not modern as in today, which would be "contemporary"). This course starts with Descartes and primarily explores the foundational split between Rationalism (which attempts to find knowledge through basic logical precepts) and Empiricism (which attempt to find knowledge though observation and analysis thereof). The Rationalists are represented by the likes Descartes and Spinoza while the Empiricists are mostly the Anglo sphere philosophers like David Hume. You then read Kant, who attempts a middle path between the two camps.

3) Analytic Philosophy. This is primarily 20th century philosophy, though a lot of contemporary philosophers work within this tradition. You will read philosophers like Frege, Wittgenstein, and Russell. Analytic philosophy is rather dry, but also written in a straightforward manner and attempts to be clear in what it is trying to say. Analytic philosophy is generally skeptical of metaphysics and very focused on clarity. A fundamental insight is that philosophy can get itself confused with words and lose any substance. Analytics are also into logic, and you can branch into formal logic systems (which essentially attempt to turn written statements into mathematics, and share quite a bit of kinship with computer science). There are surprising number ( to the uninitiated) of philosophy/math double majors, and the formal logic branch of philosophy will help you understand that link.

4) Continental Philosophy. Late 19th through early 20th century philosophy (primarily of the European continent rather than the Anglo tradition). You will read philosophers like Neitzche, Sarte, Heidegger, and Derrida. This tradition is much more literary but quite a bit less clear than the analytics. While an analytics will write sentences like "In this paper, I will argue", the Continentals will write cryptic poetry. While Neitzche has (and assumes) a strong foundation in the Greeks, Continental philosophy also has certain links with Eastern philosophy in terms of challenging cold mathematical logic.

Those four groups will give you a pretty good overview of Western philosophy. If anything, it will show just how difficult it is to come up with a truly original ideal in philosophy. Many times, insights I thought I had that were original were written about extensively a long time ago. I also left a philosophy major with the understanding that philosophy in practice is more about refining your understanding of the "great" questions, but doesn't go a long way towards getting anything that feels like answers.
Topic Author
lasp506
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Re: PHILOSOPHY - Looking for resource recommendation

Post by lasp506 »

All great comments. Thank you do much!! 🙏🙏🙏
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