Seeking opinions on home addition

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riverant
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Seeking opinions on home addition

Post by riverant »

Bogleheads,

My wife and I are thinking through a very common dilemma, which is what to do when one of us (me) thinks our family has outgrown our current home. Fortunately, we're in a comfortable position financially, so the question really prioritizes what will best support long-term happiness. I recognize that is personal to everyone, but I'm hoping fellow bogleheads have dealt with similar situations and I'm interested in your experiences (or advice from anyone else here). I'll try to keep it brief
  • Us (both 37) plus 2 kids (5 & 6)
  • Our 3BR house is 2,000 sqft plus a small 100 sqft finished basement that is my WFH "office", home gym, and storage area. We bought in 2011, before children when our HHI was a 1/3 of what it currently is. It's in a nice neighborhood and is one of the smaller houses (Neighborhood tends to be 2,600 sq ft houses with 4 bedrooms). Town is okay currently with good enough schools. Population growth, particularly due to new apartments, is a challenge and I worry the schools will be very overcrowded in the intermediate term
  • Wife grew up in a small house and thinks what we have is totally fine. I dislike the noise level and appearance of my 'office' and think we'd benefit from an additional bedroom for not infrequent guests (that currently sleep on a couch...), actual home office, bonus room, bigger garage etc. Like many with a "2 car" garage, between Bikes, tools, and toys, there is no room to park cars. I understand that this is excacerbated by the Pandemic, but I'll likely be regularly working from home forever.
  • I try to lean towards minimalism and while my wife is not a hoarder, is not opposed to stacking extra stuff against the walls or on top of each other. Wife is also very attached to our community and this exact house
  • Option A is to fix up the basement a bit (insulate ceiling, renovate). It'd hit the necessities, but still would be overfilled with stuff once complete. This option could easily be cash flowed.
  • Option B is to move to a larger house. I would do this in a heartbeat, but recognize that I don't have the local community my wife does nor the emotional attachment to our current house. Given that, I don't want to push my wife into moving only to create a long-term unhappiness situation. Though, she feels some guilt that I'm unhappy here.
  • Option C is to build an addition. Because of the layout of our house and desire for 2-car garage, there is really no small option I can think of. I'd estimate we could add a 2-car garage with 2nd story living space on a roughly 24x30 pad with a new 24x6ft extension also built. This would give us a larger basement (finishing current garage), workshop/storage, office, 2 bedrooms + bath, walk-in pantry. I'd roughly estimate this would be $250k. Some considerations
    • This would add about 850sq ft to our house and put us in line with the rest of the neighborhood
    • My wife is fine with the addition if it'd make me happy staying here.
    • I'm nervous about living (and working) through such a substantial renovation
    • Would require moving a retaining wall holding up our driveway to create more width.
    • Potentially could be awkward adding a backdoor by the garage. Possible worse, there'd be no way to then get into the backyard without going through the garage. I'd put a double door in back but still...
What's the group think? Seems like I'm choosing between Options A and C. Part of me wants to just suck it up and not spend the additional money, but I also don't want to develop resentment about the situation. I also worry that Option C is trying to make our house something that it's not and it'll either look weird when finished and/or not have the "bigger home" effect I'm hoping for.

Thanks in advance. Happy to provide any clarifications if needed.
forgeblast
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Re: Seeking opinions on home addition

Post by forgeblast »

Well, you know b is out. So its A do a general home remodel, fix up the space add storage if possible. or C.
Depending on the house style, could you add a second floor to the current garage, move the workout room up there, or create a space for an office and guest room? That way the office is out side of the living quarters and away from the clutter noise.
If you were to expand from a 2-4 garage, (which by the way we keep leaning towards a four for when we finally build ours), do you need engineering work etc?
If you go four car make sure the upstairs has water, bathroom, etc make it into an office/apartment if ever needed. I would also put in an electric lift to bring decorations ect up easily to the storage space. (we were going to do this in our house when we took out a whole house fan, but the a-frame roof would not lend itself to it. )
I personally would go C, and grab some estimates. that way you know what your working with. Put together a pro/con list and a need/want list so when you sit down with someone you know really close to what you want.
59Gibson
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Re: Seeking opinions on home addition

Post by 59Gibson »

I would do/try nearly everything to avoid C. But that's me having lived thru a moderate size remodel..never again
wilked
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Re: Seeking opinions on home addition

Post by wilked »

What is cost/sq ft in your area?

You are adding 850 sq ft at $250K, so $300/sq ft. Maybe you add some other value with improved garage, etc, but if you just look at livable space addition, if the cost/sq ft in your area is at least $250/sq ft and you believe the $250K to be a real number, I'd say it sells itself on locking in new value.

As for impact to your living - yes, it will be loud during the renovations. Do you take a lot of Zoom calls? You might think about some changes during renovation (example - have the kids bunk together, get them a bunk bed as part of it and tell them how cool it is they get to do sleepovers for 6 months). Then make one of their rooms your office, whichever is furthest away from the renovation.
BradJ
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Re: Seeking opinions on home addition

Post by BradJ »

Will you get your money back on the addition if you were to sell later on? I know Option C would be a temporary pain, but so is moving. Your estimation seems very high, if I am reading it correctly you are saying an addition of 850 sq feet would be $294 a sq foot to build? I am not saying you are wrong, everything is local, but that seems very high.
onourway
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Re: Seeking opinions on home addition

Post by onourway »

Has your wife actually looked at any other houses to get a sense of what an upgraded home might offer? We lived for many years in a similar situation you are in now, had the same attachment to the house and neighborhood, and went through the process of having architects and contractors assess the feasibility of an addition. In our case the addition would have been so disruptive that we probably could not have continued to live there during it, and even worse, it would still not have addressed some of the other problem areas of the house and property. As we were essentially content, we took our time and looked at houses over the course of many years, and eventually happened on something fantastic. There are a few things we still miss about the old neighborhood, but I was surprised at how quickly we were able to let go once we had something else to look forward to.
MadAsgardian
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Re: Seeking opinions on home addition

Post by MadAsgardian »

TJat wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:56 am
  • Option B is to move to a larger house. I would do this in a heartbeat, but recognize that I don't have the local community my wife does nor the emotional attachment to our current house. Given that, I don't want to push my wife into moving only to create a long-term unhappiness situation. Though, she feels some guilt that I'm unhappy here.
Your feelings are as valid as your wife's, but 2,000 square feet does seem reasonably generous for a young family of four (from a Midwest perspective anyway).

Unless you literally mean next-door neighbors, it seems like you could find a larger house while remaining in the community?
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riverant
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Re: Seeking opinions on home addition

Post by riverant »

Thank you everyone for the comments. Very helpful to sanity check how my brain thinks through this.
forgeblast wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:13 pm Well, you know b is out. So its A do a general home remodel, fix up the space add storage if possible. or C.
Depending on the house style, could you add a second floor to the current garage, move the workout room up there, or create a space for an office and guest room? That way the office is out side of the living quarters and away from the clutter noise.
If you were to expand from a 2-4 garage, (which by the way we keep leaning towards a four for when we finally build ours), do you need engineering work etc?
If you go four car make sure the upstairs has water, bathroom, etc make it into an office/apartment if ever needed. I would also put in an electric lift to bring decorations ect up easily to the storage space. (we were going to do this in our house when we took out a whole house fan, but the a-frame roof would not lend itself to it. )
I personally would go C, and grab some estimates. that way you know what your working with. Put together a pro/con list and a need/want list so when you sit down with someone you know really close to what you want.
Thanks, I agree that estimates to at least understand the question is a key next step. To clarify the addition... Our current garage is a 2-car that's underneath our living space. If we did the addition, we'd convert both bays into finished areas (1/2 to expand our basement, the other bay would be a workshop). Any future garage would be a new 2-car. We don't have the land to add more bays.
wilked wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:28 pm What is cost/sq ft in your area?

You are adding 850 sq ft at $250K, so $300/sq ft. Maybe you add some other value with improved garage, etc, but if you just look at livable space addition, if the cost/sq ft in your area is at least $250/sq ft and you believe the $250K to be a real number, I'd say it sells itself on locking in new value.

As for impact to your living - yes, it will be loud during the renovations. Do you take a lot of Zoom calls? You might think about some changes during renovation (example - have the kids bunk together, get them a bunk bed as part of it and tell them how cool it is they get to do sleepovers for 6 months). Then make one of their rooms your office, whichever is furthest away from the renovation.
Our area isn't consistent. In my neighborhood, we've had 2 homes sell in the past 6 month for $313 and $363 per sq foot. My home is currently valued at $333. We've done some work on the house so interior quality is probably a bit nicer than average since the neighborhoods were built with builders-grade. Down the street, we have a less fancy/older neighborhood where the average is $250-$275. The newer homes being built in town are around 4500 sq feet on crummy lots.
onourway wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:04 pm Has your wife actually looked at any other houses to get a sense of what an upgraded home might offer? We lived for many years in a similar situation you are in now, had the same attachment to the house and neighborhood, and went through the process of having architects and contractors assess the feasibility of an addition. In our case the addition would have been so disruptive that we probably could not have continued to live there during it, and even worse, it would still not have addressed some of the other problem areas of the house and property. As we were essentially content, we took our time and looked at houses over the course of many years, and eventually happened on something fantastic. There are a few things we still miss about the old neighborhood, but I was surprised at how quickly we were able to let go once we had something else to look forward to.
She hasn't, but we agreed that if we were to move, it would be in our current town. Unfortunately, there are zero houses for sale that align with what we're looking for. It's a good idea though. I probably also inadequately explained the level of emotional attachment she has with our current house, but this could be on the table if the right house appeared.
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lthenderson
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Re: Seeking opinions on home addition

Post by lthenderson »

TJat wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:56 am
  • Option A is to fix up the basement a bit (insulate ceiling, renovate). It'd hit the necessities, but still would be overfilled with stuff once complete. This option could easily be cash flowed.
  • Option B is to move to a larger house. I would do this in a heartbeat, but recognize that I don't have the local community my wife does nor the emotional attachment to our current house. Given that, I don't want to push my wife into moving only to create a long-term unhappiness situation. Though, she feels some guilt that I'm unhappy here.
  • Option C is to build an addition. Because of the layout of our house and desire for 2-car garage, there is really no small option I can think of. I'd estimate we could add a 2-car garage with 2nd story living space on a roughly 24x30 pad with a new 24x6ft extension also built. This would give us a larger basement (finishing current garage), workshop/storage, office, 2 bedrooms + bath, walk-in pantry. I'd roughly estimate this would be $250k. Some considerations
I did a 200 sqft addition to our kitchen, plus a covered porch not included in the square footage, and completely remodeled the kitchen about three years ago. I can say for certain that living in a house under construction for the nine months it took to complete isn't for the feint of heart and I wouldn't go into it again if at all possible.

If the above scenario were me, I would do option A first. Fixing up the basement to make it an appropriate home office, installing a Murphy bed somewhere for the guests in said office or another appropriate room (which is what I have done in my house), and investing in overhead racks for the garage will check most of the boxes of your current needs without breaking the bank. Live with those changes for awhile and see how things go. If it still isn't enough, then sometime down the road you can investigate option C.
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quantAndHold
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Re: Seeking opinions on home addition

Post by quantAndHold »

I would, at least in the short term, do option D, which is to do option A, and also rent an executive office somewhere nearby. You could turn the basement into a more dedicated workout area, and also have a nice office. You’re not giving up the opportunity to either remodel or move somewhere down the line, but giving either the housing market or the remodeling market a chance to cool down some.
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Watty
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Re: Seeking opinions on home addition

Post by Watty »

TJat wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:56 am Our 3BR house is 2,000 sqft
.......
Neighborhood tends to be 2,600 sq ft houses with 4 bedrooms
TJat wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:56 am Option B is to move to a larger house. I would do this in a heartbeat, but recognize that I don't have the local community my wife does nor the emotional attachment to our current house. Given that, I don't want to push my wife into moving only to create a long-term unhappiness situation. Though, she feels some guilt that I'm unhappy here.
Have you considered buying a larger house in your current subdivision?

If you could find a 2,600+ sq ft house with an unfinished basement that would be a lot larger than what you have now. As long as they are dry I love unfinished basements for storage, a shop area, laundry area, etc.

Even if there is not one for sale now there likely will be in the spring. if you have everything in order and ready to go you could get snap one up as soon as it comes on the market.

You could also put the word out that you are looking for a larger house and you might be able to find one without using a real estate agent.
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firebirdparts
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Re: Seeking opinions on home addition

Post by firebirdparts »

Building the addition has a lot of positives, and you'll enjoy it, but as you know now is a bad time. prices are high and quality is low on both materials and people. So you can balance that with option A vs. "someday". You neglected to mention how much unfinished basement you have. 100 square feet is obviously a very very small room. Could be a closet. If you have 900 unifinished square feet to build yourself an office, then you could do that sooner rather than later.

I actually think "living through" that addition process is very freeing and flexible. You can be the GC and there's just no friction to that as you're right there. Once you get it weathered in, you can take 8 years to finish some room in it. People do it all the time.

it does depend on the shape of the house, though. if it's going to look good, it'll have to complement what's already there.
This time is the same
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riverant
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Re: Seeking opinions on home addition

Post by riverant »

firebirdparts wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:09 pm Building the addition has a lot of positives, and you'll enjoy it, but as you know now is a bad time. prices are high and quality is low on both materials and people. So you can balance that with option A vs. "someday". You neglected to mention how much unfinished basement you have. 100 square feet is obviously a very very small room. Could be a closet. If you have 900 unifinished square feet to build yourself an office, then you could do that sooner rather than later.

I actually think "living through" that addition process is very freeing and flexible. You can be the GC and there's just no friction to that as you're right there. Once you get it weathered in, you can take 8 years to finish some room in it. People do it all the time.

it does depend on the shape of the house, though. if it's going to look good, it'll have to complement what's already there.
Thanks. There’s no additional basement. The entire lower level is split between a small utility room, the finished basement I mentioned, and a two car garage. The basement area also only has 7’2” ceilings, so it’s not the most useful space. The garage ceiling is 7’6, so overhead storage is out. The one storage saving grace we have a good sized attic (large but only accessible with pulldowns stairs in a closet)

I have some elevations I drew out, but the shape of the house is a hybrid between colonial and cape. We’d basically turn it into more of a colonial and add a garage to the side. So wouldn’t look bizarre I don’t think.
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Re: Seeking opinions on home addition

Post by davebo »

I was in a similar boat a few years ago and we weighed out all of those options. In the end, we wouldn't have been happy with Option A, my wife didn't want Option B, so we settled on Option C. Even though my wife wasn't in favor of Option B, I didn't rule it out. I went out and tried to find houses close by that met our criteria, but none did so we were forced to do the addition. It was worth it, but not really something I'd want to do again if I could avoid it. We remodeled a bathroom and added a master suite and a small office.

If I were you, I'd talk to your wife and say that you want to leave options for moving on the table, but ultimately it's her call. Sometimes you just need to see an actual viable alternative.

If that doesn't work, I'd do the addition as long as the purchase price+addition costs put you in the range for the neighborhood.
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Re: Seeking opinions on home addition

Post by flyfishers83 »

Before getting too serious, I'd get firm numbers on reno cost and what you'd get if you sell. You might find that you'd spend a lot, but if you had to sell for some reason, would only get 50% of that money back. That might make moving seem more reasonable. It's a valuable datapoint regardless.

My wife and I have no intention of moving, but are going to look at a significant renovation. We bought below market, but are currently considering spending 2/3 of purchase price on reno. We're going to get some professional opinions regarding value pre and post renovation to make as informed a decision as possible.
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Re: Seeking opinions on home addition

Post by carolinaman »

Option C seems the most logical. Do you plan to use an architect to design the addition (C)? They may come up with a different plan based on what your requirements are. Do not box them in with your design.
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Re: Seeking opinions on home addition

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carolinaman wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:05 am Do you plan to use an architect to design the addition (C)? They may come up with a different plan based on what your requirements are. Do not box them in with your design.
+1

Definitely pay for an architect if you go with option C. I had our addition all planned out 2D on paper and could envision it in my head but my spouse wanted detailed 3D renderings before proceeding and so we hired an architect for I think $5k for the above mentioned 200 sqft addition and remodel. It was worth every penny we paid for it. Not only did he not go the way I had imagined but made it a lot more functional and came up with things that we hadn't thought about. Plus, it was nice to have detailed schematics that I could hand over to various trades that came by to ensure that everything ended up exactly as we wanted. The only drawback was that a large part of the remodel was our kitchen and the architect layout of cabinets was not the best but the cabinet manufacturer provided a free consultation and they were able to switch things around cabinet wise to make the most sense.
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riverant
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Re: Seeking opinions on home addition

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davebo wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:19 pm I was in a similar boat a few years ago and we weighed out all of those options. In the end, we wouldn't have been happy with Option A, my wife didn't want Option B, so we settled on Option C. Even though my wife wasn't in favor of Option B, I didn't rule it out. I went out and tried to find houses close by that met our criteria, but none did so we were forced to do the addition. It was worth it, but not really something I'd want to do again if I could avoid it. We remodeled a bathroom and added a master suite and a small office.

If I were you, I'd talk to your wife and say that you want to leave options for moving on the table, but ultimately it's her call. Sometimes you just need to see an actual viable alternative.

If that doesn't work, I'd do the addition as long as the purchase price+addition costs put you in the range for the neighborhood.
Great perspective, thanks. I need to do some reflection myself - moving is attractive to me because an addition won't be able to create certain nice-to-haves (higher ceilings, larger rooms), but the question is if the need-to-haves of additional rooms, home office, more storage is sufficient. Totally agree on needing viable alternatives.
lthenderson wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:21 am
carolinaman wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:05 am Do you plan to use an architect to design the addition (C)? They may come up with a different plan based on what your requirements are. Do not box them in with your design.
+1

Definitely pay for an architect if you go with option C. I had our addition all planned out 2D on paper and could envision it in my head but my spouse wanted detailed 3D renderings before proceeding and so we hired an architect for I think $5k for the above mentioned 200 sqft addition and remodel. It was worth every penny we paid for it. Not only did he not go the way I had imagined but made it a lot more functional and came up with things that we hadn't thought about. Plus, it was nice to have detailed schematics that I could hand over to various trades that came by to ensure that everything ended up exactly as we wanted. The only drawback was that a large part of the remodel was our kitchen and the architect layout of cabinets was not the best but the cabinet manufacturer provided a free consultation and they were able to switch things around cabinet wise to make the most sense.
Agreed. The purpose of me scraping together some design was to think through priorities from an addition. An architect is a must have in my mind.

Thanks all for the thoughts. My takeaways are:

1. Keep an eye open for available homes that meet our general criteria in our current town or area
2. Connect with some architectural firms to get a specific vision for a possible addition.
3. Get a few quotes from contractors to see if the cost to build is viable. Much above 250K would give me serious pause.

If we move forward with the addition, I like the idea someone had about finding an executive office in town to lease. Having that option during construction would be invaluable.
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Watty
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Re: Seeking opinions on home addition

Post by Watty »

TJat wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:21 pm 1. Keep an eye open for available homes that meet our general criteria in our current town or area
You should also have all your finances organized so that you could quickly make a credible offer if you find one.
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Re: Seeking opinions on home addition

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quantAndHold wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:01 pm I would, at least in the short term, do option D, which is to do option A, and also rent an executive office somewhere nearby. You could turn the basement into a more dedicated workout area, and also have a nice office. You’re not giving up the opportunity to either remodel or move somewhere down the line, but giving either the housing market or the remodeling market a chance to cool down some.
I like the creativity of this option.

I agree it beats remodelling.

When we remodelling (3 bedroom Victorian Row house) we slept in the living room for 8 weeks whilst they built a top floor extension ("loft")-- it was very strange in the middle of March not to have a roof! And just as a bonus, we rented an executive office for my spouse -- her work involves a lot of client phonecalls so she couldn't have workmen hammering and yelling in the background.

Remodelling must be worse hell right now. So many contractors have left the industry, random shortages of key building materials, price rises. This is the UK but I read and hear similar things in USA.
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