Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

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doss
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Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by doss »

As mentioned in a previous thread, we are looking at possibly building a new home. One of the options we have is for a fireplace. We can go the traditional route or electric. I have ZERO experience with fireplaces other than I know my parents said it was life-saving because they were able to use it when they lost electric for several days in the infamous 2021 Texas power crisis (they lived out in the country). They had several trees and chords of firewood already stacked which came in handy.

I live in the Midwest where some kind of heating (and visual) source like this would be nice to have.

Anyone got tips on what type of fireplace (electric or non-electric, etc) to get?
“ The long-term 9%-10% nominal return of the stock market INCLUDES the crashes.” — calvin+hobbs
Big Dog
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by Big Dog »

doss wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:59 am As mentioned in a previous thread, we are looking at possibly building a new home. One of the options we have is for a fireplace. We can go the traditional route or electric. I have ZERO experience with fireplaces other than I know my parents said it was life-saving because they were able to use it when they lost electric for several days in the infamous 2021 Texas power crisis (they lived out in the country). They had several trees and chords of firewood already stacked which came in handy.

I live in the Midwest where some kind of heating (and visual) source like this would be nice to have.

Anyone got tips on what type of fireplace (electric or non-electric, etc) to get?
Fireplaces are inefficient and suck heat out of the house. I would get neither, and think about backup generator.
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doss
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by doss »

Big Dog wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:04 am
doss wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:59 am As mentioned in a previous thread, we are looking at possibly building a new home. One of the options we have is for a fireplace. We can go the traditional route or electric. I have ZERO experience with fireplaces other than I know my parents said it was life-saving because they were able to use it when they lost electric for several days in the infamous 2021 Texas power crisis (they lived out in the country). They had several trees and chords of firewood already stacked which came in handy.

I live in the Midwest where some kind of heating (and visual) source like this would be nice to have.

Anyone got tips on what type of fireplace (electric or non-electric, etc) to get?
Fireplaces are inefficient and suck heat out of the house. I would get neither, and think about backup generator.
I am with you....but then wouldn't a vent-less fireplace fit the bill?
“ The long-term 9%-10% nominal return of the stock market INCLUDES the crashes.” — calvin+hobbs
runninginvestor
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by runninginvestor »

I have had both natural gas and wood burning. I prefer the natural gas fireplace over wood because it's so easy to use.

I've never had electric, but I imagine it's similar convenience to natural gas. You'd probably be able to hook it up to a generator as well. Maybe even be able to get the electric + generator for not much more than natural gas alone. And a plus is that they aren't vented so you probably won't run into the issue of a relative forgetting to open event and smoking up your house....

Here's a nice links I tucked away for when we begin new construction:
https://blog.constellation.com/2017/02/ ... omparison/

https://www.fixr.com/comparisons/electr ... -fireplace
davebo
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by davebo »

We have 2 types of fireplaces in our house, wood burning and vented gas fireplace. Prior to living here, we had a newer tract home and it was a wood burning fireplace, but it was really small. The only plus side is that it had a gas starter so it made getting the fire going a lot easier.

My current house was built in the 1950's and has a HUGE woodburning fireplace and I totally love it. We also have an vented gas fireplace with a blower that puts out a lot of heat into the room.

Between the 2 options I have, I could go either way. I love having a real fire, but a lot of people don't want to mess around with buying wood and bringing it indoors. The gas fireplace completely eliminates this, BUT you also get the benefit of the heat. We're in the midwest and my kids love keeping it on and warming the room up.
LittleMaggieMae
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by LittleMaggieMae »

TLDR; Fireplaces are decorative. Go with fuel efficiency, for a fuel that traditionally doesn't cost much for your area, and then what ever will suck the least amount of air out of your home when it's lit, and finally chose a fireplace that looks the best and is in the best place in the room you want to have it.

The long story.
ADDED: I've got a late 40's house with an AWESOME large wood burning fireplace (no glass doors.. just a metal mesh screen), a stunning mantel, and the requisite bookshelves and windows flanking it. Having a fire is really nice - but it's messy, makes the rest of my house cold, and requires attention while a fire is going. having to leave the damper open once the fire is coals - is a pain - especially if I want to go to bed (have to leave the damper open for hours - meaning warm house air is going up the chimney). I stopped having a fire - because it was a many hour thing and I can't leave the house while it's going (Ok, I guess I could... but it feels a lot more like a fire risk/dangerous. )

Fireplaces - the kind you envision the family sitting in front of at Christmas - do not actually heat your home - they heat the space in front of the fireplace. They suck the warm air out of the rest of your house (goes up the chimney) making your HVAC work harder to keep the rest of your house "warm". Wood burning fireplaces - create ash - you have to clean the fireplace. You need to maintain the chimney. You need to ensure the damper works. You need to tend/keep an eye on the fire when it's burning. Storing wood is messy, invites critters, and can be expensive. You may feel "uncomfortable" leaving your fire to "burn out" when you go to bed. You need to leave the damper open for hours as the fire burns down/goes out (while your HVAC heated air goes up the chimney. )

Gas (or electric) fireplaces are a little easier to maintain - when you are done for the evening/day - you turn it off and you are done.

Think about how you want to use the fireplace... do you want to have it running while you are watching TV? running in the background while you entertain guests? How much "work" do you want to have associated with having a fire?

I go again with my advice - fireplaces are purely decorative. Get the most fuel efficient, pulls as little inside air as possible up the chimney, and then choose one that is most decorative for your house/room. Heck, I'd just embed a monitor with speakers in the wall surrounded by a fireplace surround plus a mantel and run a "fireplace" video with sound on it (I'm guessing it wouldn't be that hard to make this look and sound like an actual fireplace. The monitor would just be another "black hole" in your room when it wasn't on - along with the big screen TV. Heck you could probably do videos of candle arrangements or "filled with books" look or something else for the non-winter months - so you'd get more of a "decorative" use out of it.) Turn it on when you want a "fire" and turn it off when you are done. This is also probably the easiest to remove/remodel over when it looses it's "novelty". I'm guessing most wood/gas fireplaces loose their 'novelty' or become expensive to use (fuel, heating the rest of the house, etc...)
Last edited by LittleMaggieMae on Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:40 am, edited 10 times in total.
surfstar
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by surfstar »

"traditional" wood burning is very bad for indoor and outdoor air quality
I am someone who camps a lot and likes a warm campfire, but we've moved on to using a portable propane fire pit and would never want to use wood burning fireplace in the home.

A wood-pellet or similar design is more efficient and cleaner burning if you want that [wood-type] route and to have the backup heating option if electricity goes out. But again, for a new home build, it is much more likely to be efficient and cost effective to forgo traditional fireplaces.
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by mkc »

doss wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:07 am
Big Dog wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:04 am
doss wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:59 am As mentioned in a previous thread, we are looking at possibly building a new home. One of the options we have is for a fireplace. We can go the traditional route or electric. I have ZERO experience with fireplaces other than I know my parents said it was life-saving because they were able to use it when they lost electric for several days in the infamous 2021 Texas power crisis (they lived out in the country). They had several trees and chords of firewood already stacked which came in handy.

I live in the Midwest where some kind of heating (and visual) source like this would be nice to have.

Anyone got tips on what type of fireplace (electric or non-electric, etc) to get?
Fireplaces are inefficient and suck heat out of the house. I would get neither, and think about backup generator.
I am with you....but then wouldn't a vent-less fireplace fit the bill?
Vent-less is a bit of a misnomer. There is no vent of combustion by-products outside, but instead they vent indoors. Not good for indoor air quality.

https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/a-v ... liability/
Valuethinker
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by Valuethinker »

doss wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:59 am As mentioned in a previous thread, we are looking at possibly building a new home. One of the options we have is for a fireplace. We can go the traditional route or electric. I have ZERO experience with fireplaces other than I know my parents said it was life-saving because they were able to use it when they lost electric for several days in the infamous 2021 Texas power crisis (they lived out in the country). They had several trees and chords of firewood already stacked which came in handy.

I live in the Midwest where some kind of heating (and visual) source like this would be nice to have.

Anyone got tips on what type of fireplace (electric or non-electric, etc) to get?
As a backup wood is not necessarily a great one. Wood looks nice. The smell is appealing. Unfortunately it's a fairly inefficient way to heat (even in an airtight (w glass front)). And the impact of micro and nano particles (PM2.5 and below) on health is much worse than we realised say 30 years ago. Waste wood is particularly bad (if it has things like paint or preservative in it)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07ZZF416J/ ... TF8&btkr=1 Dr Garry Fuller is a world-leading expert on the subject (and, not coincidentally, London has an awful problem with particulate pollution).

Now this may be more of a problem for your neighbors, and you should be fairly protected from the effect on your interior air quality from your own fire.

It's very unlikely that wood would be cheaper than gas. If you have your own woodlot, can do your own cutting, and (most importantly) you have dry storage (optimal wood is less than 10% moisture, and that can take 18 months to reach post cutting), then wood can be a relatively cheap source of heat. Otherwise, not likely. In New England where gas connections are fewer, natural gas prices are high and wood is abundant, the calculation can change.

(wood prices will tend to swing with the weather, so you want to be in the position of buying much of your needs ahead of the winter - either for you to store or for the dealer to hold. If you are just burning a few logs for effect, that's not necessary).

Another factor is you will need to have your chimney swept. Wood burning inevitably builds up a repository of ash and other waste that needs to be swept out (if not it eventually can become a fire hazard).

Electricity? If you are using that for heating that is likely to be the most expensive. But are you using this for heating? Electric bar is not an efficient way to heat. An electrically heated house these days would almost certainly use a heat pump (ie c 3x as efficient depending on outside air temperature).

If you need a backup energy source, then a generator is likely to do better. Enough to keep the furnace running (if gas) or the heat pump (if electric heat) plus a few lights, fridge etc.

It *is* possible to get a "fire effect" unit that is fuelled by alcohol. It does not give off any meaningful heat, but it has the nice effect of flickering blue flame (behind glass) that a fireplace gives.

So

Wood (airtight, glass panelled)

Pros: nice aesthetics, maybe use cheap source of wood if available

Cons: air pollution, not usually cheapest solution, regular (seasonal?) chimney sweeping required

Electric

Pros: simple and straightforward, no adverse implications vis a vis chimney or pollution

Cons: not as pretty, looks more "fake", expensive if used as a heating means

I am sure there are people here with wood fireplaces who can give you a more accurate "user experience".
tonyclifton
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by tonyclifton »

We have an Ortal fireplace and it more efficient than our forced-air gas furnace. Requires no electricity (except battery) to run.
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by Valuethinker »

runninginvestor wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:15 am I have had both natural gas and wood burning. I prefer the natural gas fireplace over wood because it's so easy to use.

I've never had electric, but I imagine it's similar convenience to natural gas. You'd probably be able to hook it up to a generator as well. Maybe even be able to get the electric + generator for not much more than natural gas alone. And a plus is that they aren't vented so you probably won't run into the issue of a relative forgetting to open event and smoking up your house....

Here's a nice links I tucked away for when we begin new construction:
https://blog.constellation.com/2017/02/ ... omparison/

https://www.fixr.com/comparisons/electr ... -fireplace
The problem with hooking an electric FP up to generator is the energy it would consume.

A 1-2 kw bar is not that much heat (it's what our gas fire puts out, and it makes no noticeable difference to warmth in the living room (uninsulated Victorian house, but temperatures outside seldom below 30 F)). But that will burn through your fuel quite fast.

What you want in a generator is either enough to run the igniter and air handler on a gas furnace (if gas supply holds) or enough to run the heat pump (if that's what your house has). You don't want to be running electric bar heat. And if you do, you probably want a forced air one with a fan, sitting right beside you.
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by Valuethinker »

tonyclifton wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:38 am We have an Ortal fireplace and it more efficient than our forced-air gas furnace. Requires no electricity (except battery) to run.
I've seen these, and they look really nice. [EDIT - I misunderstood the technology. Thinking of something different (alcohol flame - no heat).)

I have a real gas fire, and it makes no difference to the warmth of the room.

(For reference, gas fire puts out between 1-2kw (I think that's about 7k BTU?) and the room is say 15' x 12', Victorian (no insulation and single pane windows, winter air temperature is around mid 30-40 F, mostly).
Last edited by Valuethinker on Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by 123 »

When we bought a newly constructed home it had a wood burning place with a gas line stub (with shutoff) to install a gas log set.

We used real wood in the fireplace a few times but realized it was messy to clean ashes after use and some concerns about making sure a fire was "out" even though we glass screen on fireplace (spouse is paranoid). We then installed a simple gas flame set-up with ceramic logs and embers. The gas flame with ceramic logs and embers was a winner, used it often during the winter, made things feel cozy (without any wood smell).

We later moved and bought an older home that had an old wood-burning fireplace. As part of a house renovation we ran gas and electric service to the fireplace and had a gas fireplace insert installed. The insert is safer and more energy-efficient than the gas logs setup. It is a sealed unit that burns outside air and exhausts air only to the outside. We have a traditional fireplace view through the sealed gas front and heat radiates into the room, and there's a fan to increase heat efficiency when we want it.

A gas insert fireplace is the way to go for new construction as long as you've got natural gas (Some models work with propane as well). A brick and mortar real wood-burning fireplace and chimney can easily cost 5+ times as much as a gas insert fireplace. Some localities now prohibit new wood-burning fireplace.
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tonyclifton
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by tonyclifton »

Valuethinker wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:44 am I've seen these, and they look really nice.

I have a real gas fire, and it makes no difference to the warmth of the room.

(For reference, gas fire puts out between 1-2kw (I think that's about 7k BTU?) and the room is say 15' x 12', Victorian (no insulation and single pane windows, winter air temperature is around mid 30-40 F, mostly).
I live in a 115 year old house - new Windows, not enough insulation. The Ortal puts out a lot of heat. The website spec sheet says it is 37,100 BTU for natural gas.

I don't have a way to verify the BTU but the fireplace actually heats a living room (30x15) and two bedrooms. Plus it is silent and doesn't make the air have static electricity. We run it daily November to March for several hours and our gas bill is not ridiculous. We used just shy of 10 McF this November and last November. About 35 McF in February (coldest month / highest usage).
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by retiredjg »

doss wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:59 am Anyone got tips on what type of fireplace (electric or non-electric, etc) to get?
My suggestion would be to consider gas - either logs or one of the more modern configurations (glass beads or whatever).

In general, modern wood burning fireplaces are very pretty but they are also dirty, a lot of trouble, and very ineffective in heating a even room much less a house. They pretty much suck the heat out of the room. If you want a fireplace because you enjoy a fire, you should get one. If you want supplemental heat from wood, get a wood stove.

If you want a fireplace to act as a supplemental heat source or for emergency use, get gas...it will still work when the power is out and a good one will keep a house from freezing (although I don't promise it will "heat the house"). And if tomes on with the flick of a switch or by using a remote control.

A few years back, I replaced my wood burning fireplace with a gas fireplace. I do miss the real thing, but this was a good choice for the long run. It is attractive to watch, warms the room, and will keep my house tolerable when electricity is off (a common occurrence where I live).
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by retiredjg »

davebo wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:22 am We have 2 types of fireplaces in our house, wood burning and vented gas fireplace.
You have the best of both worlds. :happy
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Watty
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by Watty »

It would be good to check with a real estate agent to see if not having any fireplace or having an electric fireplace would likely be a negative when you want to eventually sell the house. It would be where I live that would be very odd even in a mid range house.

An electric fireplace would risk being seen as being a bit tacky by some people if you are not in some place like a mobile home, or it was added to a bedroom and could easily be removed. An electric fireplace may also not age well and not look very good when it is 10 or 20 years old.

With a new house there is no reason to consider a ventless natural gas fireplace. Even if you think they are safe it could be a negative for some future potential buyers.

We have a wood fireplace that has been converted to natural gas with an insert. It works well and we like it. When we are done with the fire we can just close the flue. We have also used it in a prolonged power outage to at least keep the living room warm(ish) and we do not need to worry about running out of wood.
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by Sandtrap »

Gas with fake logs?

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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by drive2snow »

We bought an early 60's house that had a sizable fireplace that the sellers added a gas log set to many years ago. We opted to replace it with a gas insert and couldn't be happier with the purchase. It brings in combustion air from the outside and vents outside, has a battery backup that we've taken advantage of during longer power outages, and throws out plenty of heat to warm the downstairs of our house on the lowest flame height.
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by wander »

I would pick traditional fireplace. When we was shopping for our home, we would not have bought it without a real fireplace. It's just a personal preference. :D
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by oldfatguy »

I enjoy having a real (wood burning) fireplace, but I've had gas ones that were also nice (and much more convenient).

A middle ground might be a wood burning stove insert, which give you a real wood fire with more heat/efficiency.
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by Hayduke »

As has a been mentioned, a traditional open fireplace is great for ambiance but not for heating because most of the heat goes up the chimney and they can be a source of drafts when not in use. A wood burning insert can be a good compromise that will use wood more efficiently and better control airflow but makes more sense if you're retrofitting rather than building from scratch. A freestanding wood stove is the best heater but may not be your preferred room center piece.
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by bikechuck »

davebo wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:22 am We have 2 types of fireplaces in our house, wood burning and vented gas fireplace. Prior to living here, we had a newer tract home and it was a wood burning fireplace, but it was really small. The only plus side is that it had a gas starter so it made getting the fire going a lot easier.

My current house was built in the 1950's and has a HUGE woodburning fireplace and I totally love it. We also have an vented gas fireplace with a blower that puts out a lot of heat into the room.

Between the 2 options I have, I could go either way. I love having a real fire, but a lot of people don't want to mess around with buying wood and bringing it indoors. The gas fireplace completely eliminates this, BUT you also get the benefit of the heat. We're in the midwest and my kids love keeping it on and warming the room up.
The problem I have with my gas fireplace (which I love for the ambiance, cleanliness and convenience) is that it is not too far from my thermostat. The gas fireplace heats up the room it is in and the thermostat tells the furnace not to run. That makes the rest of the house freezing cold in the winter. I do wish there was a simple solution to that. The only one I can think of would be to relocate the thermostat and that seems like a big and expensive project that I do not want to mess around with.
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by notBobToo »

I've had three types ... wood burning with an outrageous blower, gas insert, (and currently) electric.

If my primary concern was backup during power outages and was feasible to connect to a generator, wood burning with a blower without a doubt. The one I had heated the entire main living area of a quad level home.

If I wanted something that looked ok without a huge impact to the environment, gas insert.

For my new (build) home, I bought this electric ( https://www.costco.com/ledgestone-55%22 ... 85460.html ) fireplace when it was recently on sale. My goal was to have something that looked nice and fit with the rest of the decor. Heating was a bonus, although I have found that the blower on low to medium takes the chill off of the family room (about 20x20 open floor plan) with the heat (pump) off (obviously not in the Midwest). Just right for watching TV, playing games or otherwise entertaining in that space.
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by Atilla »

Wood burning gives you true off the grid apocalypse heating capability. And it helps keep you in shape by warming you twice - once when you cut/split it and again when you burn it. Nothing like going into winter with a couple cords stacked and dried. :sharebeer

I've heated my house entirely with wood over a Wisconsin winter. The house always smelled great.

We have a gas fireplace now and it's fine. But I do miss starting a real fire and keeping it going.

Electric is OK if it's in a modern, artsy fartsy house somewhere down south where heating is not an issue.
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by DoTheMath »

Our older house came with a traditional wood fireplace. It was quite drafty and, as others have mentioned, quite inefficient. We replaced it with a direct vent gas fireplace insert (ie. a gas fireplace which fit into the existing hole). I strongly recommend going with a direct vent. The air is pulled from the outside for the burn and then back up the chimney. Since the burn is kept separate from the room air, its much more efficient and there's little worry about carbon monoxide and such.

A gas fireplace can't be beat for convenience. It's literally a switch to turn it on and off. It isn't quite as charming as a wood fireplace, but the convenience more than makes up for it. We use it nightly during the winter and used it during a recent extended power outage. The blower wouldn't blow without power, obviously, but it put out enough heat to keep the house in the 50s and to keep the pipes from freezing. When the blower is going it could heat our entire house (~2000 square feet). Ordinarily we use it on its lowest setting just to warm up the living room and neighboring rooms.

I've only used electric at some vacation rentals. It may have been the models they had in the homes, but electric come in a distant third to me.
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by iamlucky13 »

I disagree with the numerous opinions dismissing wood-burning fireplaces. It is not necessarily inaccurate, but it is narrow-sighted.

You need to clarify what kind of "traditional" fireplace your builder is offering.

It is true that an open wood-burning fireplace is not a good heat source. They are generally not allowed by code to be treated as a heat source, so their role is effectively decorative. They will provide some heat, primarily to the room they are in, so in an emergency they are better than nothing, but they are not a good supplemental heat source because of their low efficiency (in some circumstances, potentially even negative).

A wood burning stove on the other hand, is an excellent heat source. I would not ask the builder for an open fireplace, but I would very seriously consider a wood stove. There are three main types:

1) Free-standing wood stove. These are the most functional, although they take up space in your room and are generally not considered as attractive as a fireplace. They usually have blowers to help extract the most heat possible, but they are pretty effective at heating the space just from natural convection, so they work very well during power outages or when you want silence. Although seldom designed as cook stoves any more, my parents regularly cooked on ours during outages growing up.

2) A wood-burning fireplace insert. This is basically a wood-stove that gets installed into an existing open fireplace, along with some trim to make it look like a normal part of the fireplace. The more enclosed installation makes them more dependent on the blower, so you should expect some fan noise, but they do still provide some heat during a power outage (alternatively, an RV battery and an inverter can run the blower for 1-2 days).

3) A zero clearance fireplace. This is an insulated wood stove that is designed to be safely framed into the house without a surrounding fireplace. They are commonly designed in the same style as traditional fireplaces, although there are some modern styles, too. Heat-wise, they have the same pros and cons of a wood-burning insert.

For new construction, option (2) is seldom done, because of the expense of building a masonry fireplace and chimney.

All of these types should be available as gas-burning options, too. Gas is much more convenient and less messy. Many gas fireplaces can operate when the electricity is out, but there is potential for gas supply to be disrupted, too.

Cost-wise, if you have a free wood supply (and in many areas, tree services or their customers give wood away after removing trees), obviously a wood burning stove has an advantage if you're willing to commit the labor to it. If you have to buy wood, it will usually be cheaper if bought a cord at a time than resistance electric heat or propane, but more expensive than natural gas or a heat pump.

I do not have natural gas available, and I chose to install a wood-burning insert in my existing home's open fireplace. Even if natural gas was available, I might still have done so for several reasons. First of all, I just like the ambiance and sensation of wood heat more than that offered by a natural gas fireplace or insert, and far more than electric "fireplaces." Secondly, I usually have free wood available without much effort, so it is a cost effective complement to my heat pump, especially on the coldest days when the heat pump is least effective. Lastly, I'm weird, and splitting wood is actually not a chore for me, but the most effective stress reliever I have ever found.

I would not recommend most people go the wood-burning route, but if we're talking about a modern wood-stove, it is a good option to consider. I also would suggest most people select a natural gas fireplace over an electric one.
Rondo
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by Rondo »

Gas fireplace inside, fire pit outside. Best of both worlds for me anyway.

My natural gas fireplace heats adequately enough in case of a power outage.

The wood and mess are kept outside but still available for fun, family and friends. I made the fire pit myself for free.
davebo
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by davebo »

As I'm reading this, I never thought about the option of converting a wood burning fireplace to a Wood Burning Stove insert. Has anyone done that and do they know the approx cost? I would never want to get rid of the wood burning fireplace, but would love to have a more efficient option.
iamlucky13
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by iamlucky13 »

davebo wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:27 pm As I'm reading this, I never thought about the option of converting a wood burning fireplace to a Wood Burning Stove insert. Has anyone done that and do they know the approx cost? I would never want to get rid of the wood burning fireplace, but would love to have a more efficient option.
Yes, I have. Mine was around $4,000, and I think this was mid-range. Prices will have gone up somewhat in the last decade, and install costs will vary by region and any complications that might be present in some houses. Mine was pretty typical. It included a stainless steel flue liner, which required a few bricks be knocked out of the throat and the damper removed. This was included in the standard install fee.

My main heating source is a heat pump. It's a single stage unit which switches over to auxiliary (resistance) heat at around freezing, which makes that a threshold at which using the central heating effectively doubles in cost, so it's the cold days when temperatures stay around or below freezing when I typically light a fire.

Since I only burn part time, maybe a cord a year, I estimate it will take 20+ years to pay back the cost. This is not really worth it from a financial standpoint alone. The fact that I can still heat during a power outage, and that I like having a wood fire semi-regularly are part of the justification. I also usually keep the thermostat at 68 degrees when using the heat pump, but warm the house up to 72 when burning a fire, so my payback estimate is not quite a 1:1 comparison.

People who use wood as their main heat source obviously consume a lot more wood, but payback the cost faster. Depending on the climate and the house, 3-6 cords seems typical for a modern stove. I've heard from people with big or drafty houses in cold climates who burn 10+ cords, which is a lot of wood to haul and store, but these are usually people with tens or hundreds of acres and usually a very strong interest in doing things like this themselves.

If you'd like learn more about this, hearth.com is a great community to discuss stoves, inserts, etc. I'm aware of a couple Bogleheads who are also members over there.
chazas
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by chazas »

Sealed vented gas. I’ve had that, open vented gas, unvented gas, wood burning, electric. I have an electric now - I use it but it’s kind of silly. Wood burning is fun but drafty and a pain.
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AnnetteLouisan
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

If you have any asthmatics or people with any bronchial diseases in your family, or people with nice healthy lungs you want to protect, consider electric. Firewood gives off microscopic ash particles. Like the emissions from burning candles, these particles are very unhealthy. Wish I had known that a lot earlier btw.
runninginvestor
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by runninginvestor »

Valuethinker wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:42 am
runninginvestor wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:15 am I have had both natural gas and wood burning. I prefer the natural gas fireplace over wood because it's so easy to use.

I've never had electric, but I imagine it's similar convenience to natural gas. You'd probably be able to hook it up to a generator as well. Maybe even be able to get the electric + generator for not much more than natural gas alone. And a plus is that they aren't vented so you probably won't run into the issue of a relative forgetting to open event and smoking up your house....

Here's a nice links I tucked away for when we begin new construction:
https://blog.constellation.com/2017/02/ ... omparison/

https://www.fixr.com/comparisons/electr ... -fireplace
The problem with hooking an electric FP up to generator is the energy it would consume.

A 1-2 kw bar is not that much heat (it's what our gas fire puts out, and it makes no noticeable difference to warmth in the living room (uninsulated Victorian house, but temperatures outside seldom below 30 F)). But that will burn through your fuel quite fast.

What you want in a generator is either enough to run the igniter and air handler on a gas furnace (if gas supply holds) or enough to run the heat pump (if that's what your house has). You don't want to be running electric bar heat. And if you do, you probably want a forced air one with a fan, sitting right beside you.
Good points !
RedDog
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by RedDog »

After having fire places in our current and last home, my wife and I would prefer no fire place next time. We rarely use them, they take up valuable wall/floor space and are expensive to update.

As for emergency heat, consider purchasing a portable kerosene heater.
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by Dottie57 »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:45 pm If you have any asthmatics or people with any bronchial diseases in your family, or people with nice healthy lungs you want to protect, consider electric. Firewood gives off microscopic ash particles. Like the emissions from burning candles, these particles are very unhealthy. Wish I had known that a lot earlier btw.
When growing up my parents would have a fire in the fireplace maybe once a year. We finally realized I would usually have an asthma attack during / after. We didn’t understand the correlation because I would catch a lot of colds at school which also made me have the attacks they all kind of melded together.
Lambert Strether
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by Lambert Strether »

We have gas fireplaces upstairs and down. When we bought our house five years ago, the owner told us that the fireplace on the lower level could effectively heat the house during a power outage. We discovered this was true.

They are a lot less work than wood fireplaces. And they can function as space heaters when I keep the rest of the house cooler.
vested1
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by vested1 »

RedDog wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:14 pm After having fire places in our current and last home, my wife and I would prefer no fire place next time. We rarely use them, they take up valuable wall/floor space and are expensive to update.

As for emergency heat, consider purchasing a portable kerosene heater.
+1 for the kerosene portable heater. We used to have a Kerosun that put out an amazing amount of heat, but you need to heed the safety warnings. We've also had natural gas fireplaces with gas logs as well as traditional wood burning fireplaces. My wife has a sensitive nose and likes the look of a wood burning fireplace but can't abide the smell.

Our new (resale built in 2018) home had no fireplace so we're getting this electric one with an 81" mantle to go under the large TV we just bought:

https://www.electricfireplacesdirect.co ... 7549857941

It claims to be able to heat 1,000 sq feet with 5,100 BTU. We're not buying it for the heat, but more so we can pretend we have a real fireplace, and to provide shelves for media and decorative items. I'll try out the variable heating function, which can be turned off, but don't want to cause potential damage to the new TV above it. It also comes with a remote, which is nice.

To me, considering my age, I prefer the no maintenance aspect of an electric fireplace. No chopping wood, no increase in the gas bill, no smell to irritate my wife, been there, done that. We will use natural gas for the outside BBQ and liquid propane for the firepit, which is the glass bead type that doesn't burn wood.
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by Vtsax100 »

If it is for occasional, aesthetic use get whichever one is most pleasing to you. These threads pop up occasionally and you get the same arguments. Wood is bad, unhealthy, ventless is bad, unhealthy, real fireplaces don’t really heat your house, etc. If its for emergency use, occasional use, any one of them is fine. I have a ventless stove and I love it. If my electricity goes out in the winter I flip a switch and get nice and toasty warm. My neighbor has a wood fire place and I do get jealous, it smells soooo good.
invest4
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by invest4 »

We have a gas fireplace that burns wood. We use it for our enjoyment and readily accept the trade-offs.

We love the aesthetic including sight, sound, and smell and happily add logs and tend to it as required.

We clean out the ashes when we feel like it and replenish the wood annually with the kids transporting and stacking the wood with me each year as we begin the transition from Fall to the long Winter.

It is simply a joy and tradition for our family and we wouldn’t have it any other way. YMMV.
fishnhunt
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by fishnhunt »

Have you looked into a wood stove? They are very efficient compared to a fireplace.
Mr. Rumples
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by Mr. Rumples »

One question: is what is the purpose? Is it aesthetics or for an emergency backup? If the latter, then the choices are limited. As noted earlier, for emergencies, a generator works also. The cost of a generator can be offset in part by not having a chimney installed should that be an option.

Chimneys for wood fireplaces require regular cleaning, that's an annual expense. Not a lot, around $150 where I live, but put it off a few years and the price increases. Chimney fires account for over half of all house fires caused by heating and cooling equipment:

https://www.csia.org/statistics.html
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Nowizard
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by Nowizard »

Depends on how much you want to fool with it and the aesthetics. Have had both, wood-burning when younger, ventless now which is more for appearance as it has turned out. Ventless does provide heat to the area, though. Many recommend not placing a tv above a fireplace, particularly wood-burning, but there has been no difficulty in our case from ventless. Edit: Just recalled that we do have a very large, wood-burning fireplace outside on our patio. Have never used it, did not even think of it first but would have described how attractive it is if the question had been related to landscape!

Tim
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by Valuethinker »

tonyclifton wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:18 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:44 am I've seen these, and they look really nice.

I have a real gas fire, and it makes no difference to the warmth of the room.

(For reference, gas fire puts out between 1-2kw (I think that's about 7k BTU?) and the room is say 15' x 12', Victorian (no insulation and single pane windows, winter air temperature is around mid 30-40 F, mostly).
I live in a 115 year old house - new Windows, not enough insulation. The Ortal puts out a lot of heat. The website spec sheet says it is 37,100 BTU for natural gas.

I don't have a way to verify the BTU but the fireplace actually heats a living room (30x15) and two bedrooms. Plus it is silent and doesn't make the air have static electricity. We run it daily November to March for several hours and our gas bill is not ridiculous. We used just shy of 10 McF this November and last November. About 35 McF in February (coldest month / highest usage).
Ahh right. I did not dig enough. mea culpa. Thank you.
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Shackleton
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by Shackleton »

I live on several acres of forest where the dead trees from pine beetles were cut and stacked by the previous owner. So we have approximately 10 years worth of free firewood. My husband does all cutting and splitting of the wood. Our house has a high end, wood burning fireplace with a blower and catalytic combuster which increases the amount of heat, while reducing the smoke and creosote. We use the fireplace to heat our 2600sf house with only occasional use of our heating system (which is hydronic radiant floor heating using propane to heat the water.) we live in a high altitude cold climate in the Rocky Mountains so we have a long/cold winter season. We probably use 5 cords of wood each winter. No smoke in the house, and only have to clean out the ashes every 10 days or so. If I were building and had easy access to large amounts of wood, this is what I’d go with.

Our previous house in a traditional suburb (but still in CO) we built and had vented natural gas fireplaces. They were for ambiance rather than heat although both did put out a surprising amount of heat. If I were building on a lot that didn’t have a supply of wood, this would be my choice again since it is very unusual to find a house without a fireplace in CO and I wouldn’t want to have to purchase and store wood is such a situation.

I personally would never purchase an electric “fireplace” because I’ve never thought they look good.
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iamlucky13
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by iamlucky13 »

RedDog wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:14 pm After having fire places in our current and last home, my wife and I would prefer no fire place next time. We rarely use them, they take up valuable wall/floor space and are expensive to update.

As for emergency heat, consider purchasing a portable kerosene heater.
For those who want to use kerosene heaters for emergencies, check to make sure the one you buy is rated for indoor use. Unlike a permanently installed stove, emergency heaters vent their combustion products indoors. Also, only use 1-K kerosene in it. And hopefully obviously, have a carbon monoxide detector in the space being heated.

As a really rough estimate, plan on about 5 gallons of kerosene per day, although this will vary significantly depending on outdoor air temperature, how warm your keep your home, and how much of your home you keep heated.

Conveniently enough, if you have a modern wood stove (not an open fireplace), 1 cubic foot of closely stacked, dry wood is roughly comparable to 1 gallon of kerosene, so 5 cubic feet of firewood per day is also a decent rough estimate.
vested1 wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:08 am Our new (resale built in 2018) home had no fireplace so we're getting this electric one with an 81" mantle to go under the large TV we just bought:

https://www.electricfireplacesdirect.co ... 7549857941

It claims to be able to heat 1,000 sq feet with 5,100 BTU. We're not buying it for the heat, but more so we can pretend we have a real fireplace
As a sole heat source, it would not heat 1,000 sq feet for most homes when the outdoor temperature is around freezing. Most 1500W electric heaters advertise themselves as suitable for about 400 square feet.

However, it should be just fine for warming the room it is in noticeably more than the rest of the house to complete the ambient effect.
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willthrill81
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by willthrill81 »

We've had both wood-burning and natural gas fireplaces. We loved our wood-burning fireplace in North Dakota; their ambience simply cannot be duplicated in any other way. Yes, they are inefficient (but they do heat the space nearby them at least), but that didn't matter to us. There's nothing like a real crackling fire when there's a blizzard howling outside.

That said, beyond ambience, wood-burning fireplaces are less effective in nearly every way than most alternatives. Virtually every alternative will be easier to 'refuel' to keep the fire burning. A wood-burning insert or stove can be very efficient and safe to operate. Natural gas and propane fireplaces are also efficient and may require little more from you than turning a switch, periodically cleaning the interior of the glass face, and lighting the pilot light at the start of the season and shutting it off at the end.

We have had a natural gas fireplace for years and use it regularly. It can operate without any electricity at all. Even the switch still works because it's powered by a little thermocouple by the pilot light. It has a blower that requires about 30 watts of power and significantly improves the heat output, but that can be powered via an extension cord connected to a tiny inverter connected to a vehicle; no generator is needed for such a tiny load.

Personally, I think that electric fireplaces are silly. They don't provide the ambience of a flame, the cost effectiveness of natural gas (and maybe propane, depending on where you are), nor functionality when the electricity is down.

If you just need backup heat, there are much less costly and potentially more effective ways to get that than with a fireplace.
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theplayer11
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by theplayer11 »

we installed a wood insert into existing fireplace and I would say it was one of our better decisions. The insert with a blower heats up a huge area downstairs. When running, the boiler never comes on.
gavinman
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by gavinman »

Get a gas fireplace but make sure it isn’t a builder grade or cheapie. Pay for one that is efficient and puts out quite a bit of heat. We upgraded our gas log in our old house and loved it. It would heat the whole first floor. I have a new house now with a builder grade gas log and it’s basically just a decoration. The old one had a remote with thermostat and had a light it was nice and very warm.
squirm
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by squirm »

if you want to heat the house you need a wood stove or at least a pellet stove. wood burning stove is awesome with great ambience and really puts out the heat but you have to do some work for it. pellet stove not so much, and not the best ambience either.

we heat with wood stove. electric fireplace seems very cheesy.
jibantik
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Re: Traditional fireplace or electric? What to do for new construction home?

Post by jibantik »

Have a wood stove. If you live somewhere it gets cold, nothing beats relaxing around the wood burning stove on a cold night, it's such a comforting feeling, perhaps because it taps into your primal nature. I usually use it a 2-3 times a week in the middle of winter, on those cold days or weekends.

Thing throws serious heat, and could easily heat the house if needed. It's nice to have as a backup heating source in case the power goes out in the winter.
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