Please educate me about adding Hi-Rez audio streaming to my set up

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CenTexan
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Please educate me about adding Hi-Rez audio streaming to my set up

Post by CenTexan »

I am in the process of selecting a new integrated amplifier for my "sit-and-listen" audio system. Being a member of the Compact Disc generation, I anticipate my future use to be limited to that medium. However, before I select an amp, I want to know more about hi-rez streaming (better than CD quality) hardware.

Several integrated amps I have researched have the hardware built in, but they don't offer the other features I want (specifically 100+ w/RMS, tone & balance controls).

Would someone explain what [in the future] I would need to purchase [in order to ADD Hi-Rez streaming as an input option to my existing amp], how I would operate it, and what back-of-amp connections I would need if I added this to my system in the future?

(FYI, I am not willing to spend more than a few hundred dollars for the hardware)

Thanks for your reply!

[edited to add clarity to my original post]
Last edited by CenTexan on Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
brad.clarkston
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Re: Please educate me about adding Hi-Rez audio streaming to my set up

Post by brad.clarkston »

Probably something like the Sony STRDH190.

At that price point there will be no features just phono inputs (RCA) and speaker outputs.
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investnoob
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Re: Please educate me about adding Hi-Rez audio streaming to my set up

Post by investnoob »

What will the source be for hi-rez audio streaming? A phone through an app?
A tv? A computer?

Once you figure that out, it might be easier to settle on an amp.

Also, do you want the tone controls on the amp itself (with knobs)? Or are you ok with tone controls via a remote?

edit: there is a youtuber that I follow that does pretty good guides on setting up hifi streaming setups. Here is one guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqpNwUgmxco&t=1002s

He also has videos on hi rez audio. Overall, its a pain and not very straightforward unless you go down some narrow paths. Hope that makes sense.
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CenTexan
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Re: Please educate me about adding Hi-Rez audio streaming to my set up

Post by CenTexan »

investnoob wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:47 am What will the source be for hi-rez audio streaming? A phone through an app?
A tv? A computer?
That's the advice I am asking for. :happy

No TV, no computer, phone/tablet used as controller (but not source due to limited resolution). I thought I read somewhere that a Chromecast dongle could be used but wouldn't that require an HDMI input on the amp?

I'll check out the videos you suggested. Thanks.
HawkeyePierce
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Re: Please educate me about adding Hi-Rez audio streaming to my set up

Post by HawkeyePierce »

I would get a stereo receiver that supports wi-fi streaming from Tidal or Qobuz, like the Yamaha R-N303: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022RN303/ ... l?tp=47041

$329 and can stream hi-rez music from a number of services. You control it via a Yamaha app on your phone. You probably don't even need a CD player given how extensive the catalogs are on these services.
Tamales
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Re: Please educate me about adding Hi-Rez audio streaming to my set up

Post by Tamales »

What's your budget and main features you want from the (2-channel?) integrated?
You'll get more responses on various configurations and user experiences thereof if you post to an audio forum like Steve Hoffman Music Forums, in the audio hardware sub-forum:
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/forums/audio-hardware.5/
If you do decide to venture into streaming, you're going to have a lot more questions (some that you don't even know are questions yet), and that would be a better place to get those answered and understand the trade-offs
dcdowden
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Re: Please educate me about adding Hi-Rez audio streaming to my set up

Post by dcdowden »

I have a chromecast audio dongle connected to my receiver which allows me to cast streaming audio (google you tube play, spotify, etc.) from my PC, iPhone, iPad, etc. This casting uses the home wifi network, so it is higher res than typical bluetooth connections. Unfortunately, Google discontinued the chromecast audio device, but there are other alternatives available at a reasonable price.

https://smarthomestarter.com/alternativ ... ast-audio/
investnoob
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Re: Please educate me about adding Hi-Rez audio streaming to my set up

Post by investnoob »

CenTexan wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:22 am
investnoob wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:47 am What will the source be for hi-rez audio streaming? A phone through an app?
A tv? A computer?
That's the advice I am asking for. :happy

No TV, no computer, phone/tablet used as controller (but not source due to limited resolution). I thought I read somewhere that a Chromecast dongle could be used but wouldn't that require an HDMI input on the amp?

I'll check out the videos you suggested. Thanks.
There used to be a chromecast audio dongle. But I've never seen it in stores in Canada. Maybe its available in the US (or was here and I missed it).
There are also "hdmi audio extractors" that can be used to extract audio from an hdmi device if you were to use something like a google tv.

I had a look at the yamaha amp that someone linked to, and that looks pretty promising. If I were starting a listening station from scratch and needed 100watts over 4/8 ohms that is something I would look at it.

All the other stuff that I was going to recommend for under a couple of hundred bucks only does about 40 watts over 4/8 ohms.

edit: saw the edit to your original post. Ideally, you want something (integrated amp, or a "stack" of separates (digital to analogue converter, preamplifier, and amplifier) with a digital input like usb, optical/toslink, and coaxial input (and maybe wifi).

Then you would connect a source to the amp. This where it can get complicated with hi res audio. This is tough to do as apple airplay limits to 24bit/48khz I believe. And the dongle to connect physically to an amp also limits you to 24/48.

For anything higher than that, you need a source that can stream over wifi or be connected to the amp by optical/usb/coax. But phones/tablets have a limit. So a tv/computer might be the best bet.

I think that's why the yamaha amp might be something to look at.

In my setup, I play hi res audio files from Amazon HD Music using a PC connected to dac/amp.

edit 2: here is another video, this time on apple music and hi res audio. That might be useful too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOVIfKpbwxg
hvaclorax
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Re: Please educate me about adding Hi-Rez audio streaming to my set up

Post by hvaclorax »

Not to be off topic but have you the high quality speakers to support Hi-Rez? Do your ears qualify as golden? Not to mention that many of us mortals believe there is no difference between 44.1 and 48 (and higher) resolution. High rez without the support of hearing and speakers doesn’t make sense. It’s all about the music.
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eddot98
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Re: Please educate me about adding Hi-Rez audio streaming to my set up

Post by eddot98 »

I’m not sure what’s wrong with playing Amazon Unlimited HD through an Echo Dot connected to a High Impedance input on an integrated amp, or in our case a Sony STR/D350 Z receiver. The Echo Dot is connected with a high quality 3.5 mm to RCA jacks cable. Just for kicks, last week I did a comparison where I played a song off of a CD of U2’s Achtung Baby and then played the same song through the Echo Dot. My 71 year old ears did not hear a discernible difference. Another option that I have considered is to use an old iPhone, I have a iPhone 6 in a drawer, or an old Android phone, I don’t have one of those, to stream a music source.
lazydavid
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Re: Please educate me about adding Hi-Rez audio streaming to my set up

Post by lazydavid »

eddot98 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:47 am I’m not sure what’s wrong with playing Amazon Unlimited HD through an Echo Dot connected to a High Impedance input on an integrated amp, or in our case a Sony STR/D350 Z receiver. The Echo Dot is connected with a high quality 3.5 mm to RCA jacks cable. Just for kicks, last week I did a comparison where I played a song off of a CD of U2’s Achtung Baby and then played the same song through the Echo Dot. My 71 year old ears did not hear a discernible difference.
The DAC in the Echo Dot is horrible--the sound quality is actually better using bluetooth from the Dot to a supported receiver rather than a direct cable. However, If the DAC in your CD player is similarly less than ideal, and both are played through a low-end receiver and (presumably) similarly low-end speakers to 71-year-old ears, I could certainly believe that there was no discernible difference from a 16/44.1 stream.

By way of example, for a while I was using an Echo Auto (essentially a dot without a built-in speaker) in my car, and just accepted the mediocre sound quality since a vehicle is not exactly the best environment for critical listening. But a couple of months ago I replaced it with a ~$100 bluetooth receiver with a pair of high-quality DACs and LDAC (a high-bandwidth Bluetooth audio codec) support, and the difference was absolutely astonishing. I mean, night and day.

I do not know OPs age and audio acuity, but he is setting up a dedicated listening room and asking about hi-res audio, so I would think(?) he's looking for a more discerning solution. I could be wrong.

If I am correct though, and the "not more than a few hundred dollars" budget is to add high-res streaming support to an existing receiver--as opposed to the entire budget for a new integrated amp with built-in high-res streaming support--then this is totally doable. There are a number of options depending on how you want to do it.

Cheapest but least convenient way is to buy a used phone or tablet with an excellent DAC and use that as the source. LG phones with their Quad DAC (Gx and Vxx series) are great choices here. Just hook it up to your receiver with a 3.5mm to RCA cable, crank the volume on the phone all the way, and you're good to go. Downside is you have to walk over to the device to make content selections.

If you are fine using an (Android) phone or tablet as the music source, but want no wires, you could look at bluetooth receivers that support LDAC. There are a number of portable ones that would work great, but since this is a fixed installation, I would look at something like the FiiO BTA30 Pro, which costs $120. It would connect to your receiver using a standard RCA cable. It also supports Coaxial (better) or Optical (not as good) connections, but then you're basically using it as a BT receiver and offloading decoding to your receiver's DAC (which may not be as good).

If you want a device that accepts and plays back streams directly, you might look into something like the AudioEngine B-Fi ($190). This is a dedicated streamer that you control from your phone or tablet. It connects to your receiver via stereo RCA cables. if you can still find a (now discontinued) old Chromecast Audio, that could be an option too.
hunoraut
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Re: Please educate me about adding Hi-Rez audio streaming to my set up

Post by hunoraut »

You need a USB DAC. You stream hi-res onto your phone/tablet/computer, that connects digitally (usb) to the DAC. The DAC converts the hi-res to analog which goes to the amplifier.

JDS Labs has something called the Atom. Supports up to 32-bit 384kHz which is a ceiling way higher than any known service (tidal, amazon, apple music, spotify) can stream. Only 100$.
eddot98
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Re: Please educate me about adding Hi-Rez audio streaming to my set up

Post by eddot98 »

lazydavid wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:05 pm
eddot98 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:47 am I’m not sure what’s wrong with playing Amazon Unlimited HD through an Echo Dot connected to a High Impedance input on an integrated amp, or in our case a Sony STR/D350 Z receiver. The Echo Dot is connected with a high quality 3.5 mm to RCA jacks cable. Just for kicks, last week I did a comparison where I played a song off of a CD of U2’s Achtung Baby and then played the same song through the Echo Dot. My 71 year old ears did not hear a discernible difference.
The DAC in the Echo Dot is horrible--the sound quality is actually better using bluetooth from the Dot to a supported receiver rather than a direct cable. However, If the DAC in your CD player is similarly less than ideal, and both are played through a low-end receiver and (presumably) similarly low-end speakers to 71-year-old ears, I could certainly believe that there was no discernible difference from a 16/44.1 stream.

By way of example, for a while I was using an Echo Auto (essentially a dot without a built-in speaker) in my car, and just accepted the mediocre sound quality since a vehicle is not exactly the best environment for critical listening. But a couple of months ago I replaced it with a ~$100 bluetooth receiver with a pair of high-quality DACs and LDAC (a high-bandwidth Bluetooth audio codec) support, and the difference was absolutely astonishing. I mean, night and day.
I wasn’t aware that the Echo Dot had such a poor DAC. Are there any Echo products that have reasonably good DAC’s? Or another product with Alexa that could be plugged into the receiver? We have become reliant on just asking Alexa to play something. Our receiver, the mentioned Sony STR-D350Z is several years old and it doesn’t have streaming, Bluetooth, or HDMI inputs. As far as being low end, I would think that it’s not the weakest link in the stereo system. We are using a Magnavox Blue Ray player for CD playback, a NB500MG9. I haven’t a clue about the quality of its DAC. It was hanging around when our CD player broke. Our speakers are vintage Bose AM 5’s. I wouldn’t call them low end, but I know that they are far from state of the art. One of the main reasons we got them was they sounded pretty good back when we got them used in the early 1990’s and they were a lot less obtrusive than the 4 large Advents that I had stacked two for the left and right channels.
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Re: Please educate me about adding Hi-Rez audio streaming to my set up

Post by hunoraut »

This is the wireless product to add streaming to your existing amplifier

https://www.sonos.com/en-us/shop/port.html

Control the music service with voice dictation to your phone or any other listening device (e.g. Alexa dot). The voice dictation triggers the DEVICE itself to stream the (hi-res) music from its source. Its output goes to the amplifier to drive your speakers.

$400
lazydavid
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Re: Please educate me about adding Hi-Rez audio streaming to my set up

Post by lazydavid »

eddot98 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:16 pm I wasn’t aware that the Echo Dot had such a poor DAC. Are there any Echo products that have reasonably good DAC’s? Or another product with Alexa that could be plugged into the receiver? We have become reliant on just asking Alexa to play something. Our receiver, the mentioned Sony STR-D350Z is several years old and it doesn’t have streaming, Bluetooth, or HDMI inputs. As far as being low end, I would think that it’s not the weakest link in the stereo system. We are using a Magnavox Blue Ray player for CD playback, a NB500MG9. I haven’t a clue about the quality of its DAC. It was hanging around when our CD player broke. Our speakers are vintage Bose AM 5’s. I wouldn’t call them low end, but I know that they are far from state of the art. One of the main reasons we got them was they sounded pretty good back when we got them used in the early 1990’s and they were a lot less obtrusive than the 4 large Advents that I had stacked two for the left and right channels.
The Echo Link (currently on sale for $140) is intended to be the "Audiophile Echo", and supports decoding high-res music to an external receiver. The DAC implementation reportedly (I haven't listened myself) is not as it could be given the price, but is (again reportedly) significantly better than the Dot.
hunoraut wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:59 am This is the wireless product to add streaming to your existing amplifier

https://www.sonos.com/en-us/shop/port.html

Control the music service with voice dictation to your phone or any other listening device (e.g. Alexa dot). The voice dictation triggers the DEVICE itself to stream the (hi-res) music from its source. Its output goes to the amplifier to drive your speakers.

$400
In addition to being expensive for what it does, until recently the Sonos Port did NOT support high-res audio at all. With yesterday's (December 7th, 2021) update, it now supports the lowest-tier of high res--24bit/48kHz--from Amazon and Qobuz (Quobuz support was added in the spring). As this is a hardware limitation, you can't even stream 24bit/96kHz or 24bit/192kHz content and have it downsampled to 24/48, because the cheap DAC they used is incapable of decoding it. If you play a song that's only available in one of these two formats, you will actually get the CD-quality (16bit/44.1kHz) version streamed to you.

With most devices, you could get around this by using the digital outputs (preferably coaxial) to drive an external DAC, such as the Schiit Modi or the JDS Atom mentioned upthread, both of which are excellent. But bafflingly, the Port for some reason is incapable of delivering bit-perfect audio out of its digital outputs--something I thought had been table stakes for more than 20 years. I have no ideas why this is the case, but multiple independent sources have confirmed it.
hunoraut
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Re: Please educate me about adding Hi-Rez audio streaming to my set up

Post by hunoraut »

lazydavid wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:27 am In addition to being expensive for what it does, until recently the Sonos Port did NOT support high-res audio at all. With yesterday's (December 7th, 2021) update, it now supports the lowest-tier of high res--24bit/48kHz--from Amazon and Qobuz (Quobuz support was added in the spring). As this is a hardware limitation, you can't even stream 24bit/96kHz or 24bit/192kHz content and have it downsampled to 24/48, because the cheap DAC they used is incapable of decoding it. If you play a song that's only available in one of these two formats, you will actually get the CD-quality (16bit/44.1kHz) version streamed to you.

With most devices, you could get around this by using the digital outputs (preferably coaxial) to drive an external DAC, such as the Schiit Modi or the JDS Atom mentioned upthread, both of which are excellent. But bafflingly, the Port for some reason is incapable of delivering bit-perfect audio out of its digital outputs--something I thought had been table stakes for more than 20 years. I have no ideas why this is the case, but multiple independent sources have confirmed it.
Sonos don't like to publish detailed technical specs but I am surprised at the low ceiling of the DAC. At the component level it's a pretty cheap thing to build. I don't know if it's a system bandwidth or processing type of a thing but something like 24/96 is not that demanding.
eddot98
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Re: Please educate me about adding Hi-Rez audio streaming to my set up

Post by eddot98 »

lazydavid wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:27 am
eddot98 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:16 pm I wasn’t aware that the Echo Dot had such a poor DAC. Are there any Echo products that have reasonably good DAC’s? Or another product with Alexa that could be plugged into the receiver? We have become reliant on just asking Alexa to play something. Our receiver, the mentioned Sony STR-D350Z is several years old and it doesn’t have streaming, Bluetooth, or HDMI inputs. As far as being low end, I would think that it’s not the weakest link in the stereo system. We are using a Magnavox Blue Ray player for CD playback, a NB500MG9. I haven’t a clue about the quality of its DAC. It was hanging around when our CD player broke. Our speakers are vintage Bose AM 5’s. I wouldn’t call them low end, but I know that they are far from state of the art. One of the main reasons we got them was they sounded pretty good back when we got them used in the early 1990’s and they were a lot less obtrusive than the 4 large Advents that I had stacked two for the left and right channels.
The Echo Link (currently on sale for $140) is intended to be the "Audiophile Echo", and supports decoding high-res music to an external receiver. The DAC implementation reportedly (I haven't listened myself) is not as it could be given the price, but is (again reportedly) significantly better than the Dot.
hunoraut wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:59 am This is the wireless product to add streaming to your existing amplifier

https://www.sonos.com/en-us/shop/port.html

Control the music service with voice dictation to your phone or any other listening device (e.g. Alexa dot). The voice dictation triggers the DEVICE itself to stream the (hi-res) music from its source. Its output goes to the amplifier to drive your speakers.

$400
In addition to being expensive for what it does, until recently the Sonos Port did NOT support high-res audio at all. With yesterday's (December 7th, 2021) update, it now supports the lowest-tier of high res--24bit/48kHz--from Amazon and Qobuz (Quobuz support was added in the spring). As this is a hardware limitation, you can't even stream 24bit/96kHz or 24bit/192kHz content and have it downsampled to 24/48, because the cheap DAC they used is incapable of decoding it. If you play a song that's only available in one of these two formats, you will actually get the CD-quality (16bit/44.1kHz) version streamed to you.

With most devices, you could get around this by using the digital outputs (preferably coaxial) to drive an external DAC, such as the Schiit Modi or the JDS Atom mentioned upthread, both of which are excellent. But bafflingly, the Port for some reason is incapable of delivering bit-perfect audio out of its digital outputs--something I thought had been table stakes for more than 20 years. I have no ideas why this is the case, but multiple independent sources have confirmed it.
Thanks
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